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Sport vs Manualmode (and curve hold ability)

5K views 25 replies 8 participants last post by  Foxy 
#1 ·
Hey

Did any of you guys get the feeling, that the car pulls stronger in S mode than it does in manual mode?

I prefer driving in manual mode because you can select the perfect gear for every situation and you are in control. I think sport mode often shifts in the wrong gear and shifts back an forth for no use. But I still get the feeling the car pulls stronger in sport mode than in manual. What do you guys think?

Another question: did you ever experience the cars curve hold ability? In my understanding, this feature should work in sport mode only, because in manual mode, it holds the gears anyway in the selected one, no matter what.
But if I drive in a bend in sport mode, the car shifts even when I am cornering. What is your experience?

Thank you very much
 
#2 ·
I find the AT mode to be pretty inconsistent and unpredictable. New day new behaviour. Worst is the down shifting after corner in D mode. Don't use S mode that much. Manual mode is OK although still sometimes to much slip on the converter is some situation. Engine should be strong enough to overcome lower revs without the torque converter opening up. Think this is also bothering you Foxy. The box doesn't like short shifting out of a corner. Want's to be up in revs and sometimes plain outside it's power band.
Another thing. Half throttle = full throttle. Sometimes the car feels faster half throttle. At 160 km/h in 6th gear in the maximum torque range the engine doesn't provide the torque expected. Should accelerate faster like torque is restricted.
 
#3 ·
Did not even know you bought a Polestar. Thought you dont like it?

To be honest, I dont know if I got what you meant. Obviously the best thing to drive the car is in manual mode, absolutely no complains here. But I just get the feeling it pulls stronger in S than it does in M, did you experience this?
And what about that curve hold ability?

I think you are right with that throttle theorie. Sometimes it definitely does pull very strong if you push the throttle half way down very fast and the releasing it.
 
#4 ·
Did not even know you bought a Polestar. Thought you dont like it?
I wanted to trade for an XC90 FE but ended up with a Polestar V60 after the dealer managed to meet my weird demands. (From which I thought couldn't be met.. :) )
One of the demands being no sunroof. Car arrived mid November and I received the car Januari 2nd. Have driven ~2800 km so far and although not as thrilling as the IS-F I'm happy with it so far. But it does have some weird things.

To be honest, I dont know if I got what you meant. Obviously the best thing to drive the car is in manual mode, absolutely no complains here. But I just get the feeling it pulls stronger in S than it does in M, did you experience this?
And what about that curve hold ability?
With S mode you mean S automatic mode? Frankly I haven't used the S mode that much. I use either D-Mode which basically sucks unless driven on the highway or I use manual mode from the get go. Just don't pull all the way to redline because at that point the engine is working above it's torque range. This is what has been said about "hitting a wall". Power simply fades above ~5500 RPM even if it might give the impression it will rev on to redline. Try to shift near 5500-6K RPM and the car will make more distance. I guess S automatic calculates for more ideal shifting RPM's because it needs to provide the "torque" requested by the throttle pedal.
Regarding the corner hold function I think this has to be seen as a gear hold function. The moment you keep a steady throttle the gearbox doesn't immediately shift to a lower gear but stays in gear. When you drive older and other GearTronics they always have the tendency to shift the moment you lift throttle or brake.
As an example, we also own a C70 T5 GT, with Polestar tune, and I have driven this car on the Ring. AT mode is simply useless because the box shifts to 5 at every braking point, opens up the converter mid corner and needs to think and shift up two or three gears after corner. Totally ridiculous behaviour. Luckily there is a manual function on that gearbox to make it worthwhile. The Polestars S mode is behaving much better in this regard. It only downshift under braking to the correct gear and stays in gear longer. The issue that you are having with the upshift after corner is because the box wants to go to it's calculated optimal rev range. I think this is related to where the converter is near lock up.

Maybe you can check the behaviour by taking the same corner you were driving S mode, where you think the hold function doesn't work, but this time in manual mode 3rd gear and see if there is converter slip the moment you power out of the corner. I think there will be slip and I guess that S-mode doesn't want that and shifts up to provide power with lesser slip.
 
#5 ·
Thanks. Yes with S I mean Sport automatic mode.
What does "converter slip" mean? So you think this gear holding feature is only when you keep the throttle steady? I think this is for no use then...

I mean I could (and I normally am when driving fast roads) drive in manual mode, because its the best out of the three for spirited driving and you have full control. Its only because I think it pulls harder in S mode, that is the only reason why I am considering also S mode next to manual. I will go on the Nordschleife on may 8th. I will try to drive one lap in S mode and one in M just do compare.

But on my drive on the german autobahn I kind of found it hard to 'hear' the correct shifting time, without loking at the revs all the time. Because like you said it is good to shift at about 5500-6000 rpm. But this is hard, because I either shift to early or to late... Did you experience this as well?
 
#6 ·
Please pardon my adding my own question to your thread Foxy. If you are in manual mode and start in 2 (to simulate a tall first gear), will the torque converter stay in lock-out and let the engine labor under heavy throttle or will the torque converter start to slip?
 
#8 ·
Gear holding function is not only when keeping steady throttle. You also notice some "engine braking" while the box stays in gear at throttle lift.

With the converter slip I mean when you clearly notice the engine RPM's rise more than the gear ratio suggests.

For example take a 2nd gear corner in 3rd gear and power out of the corner in 3rd gear. The gear ratio suggests maybe something like 1500 to 2000 RPM but you can see, hear and feel the RPM rise to 2500 or so and it will stay there for a while while the car accelerates. The car will keep accelerating up to a point where the rpm starts to rise with the acceleration again. At this point the torque converter is more or less closed and there is a more direct drive between the engine and the wheels.
The part where the rpm's sort of hover while the car accelerates is when there is slip in the torque converter. It can give the impression that the car accelerates faster than it actually does. Sometimes it really does accelerate faster but there will be a lot of heat buildup inside the gearbox. I think the gearbox brains are programmed to only allow for a certain amount of slip after which it decides to change gear ratio to a point where there is less slip going which I think it somewhere above 2800 to 3000 RPM.
In case you enter a corner in third gear at 2000 rpm and want to keep it there you need to apply steady throttle yes. The moment you lift throttle and want to power out of the corner I think the gearbox brain prefers higher RPM because it thinks it is better for the gearbox itself and the given situation related to throttle input so it will select a shorter ratio to up the RPMs to above the point where the slip no longer occurs, in this case 2800 to 3000 or so RPM.

I don't know the specs of this gearbox so I have used the 2880-3000 RPM point as an example.
 
#9 ·
Foxy, S mode has a different (more aggressive) throttle mapping than D. It also opens up the exhaust from idle, not just above 4,000 rpm as in D. The 0-120 km/h times are probably so close as to be identical, but S mode is meant to "feel" faster and more responsive. So anything below full throttle, S will require less throttle depress to get the same acceleration. But it's a "trick" ultimately, not an actual faster car.

Manual can be used in D or S and the same difference should be felt.
 
#10 ·
No, I know exactly what Foxy is talking about, the car does "feel" faster in S over M mode. I stomp on it in S mode, then stomp on it in M mode using the paddle shifters, the car "feels" faster in S mode. I have absolutely nothing to back this up with, other than seat of the pants.
 
#11 ·
I knew my popometer is not cheating on me.

Marc I know this, but I was not comparing D to S but M to S mode. In my understanding, If you leave the gearknob in D mode, but pull on a paddle, the car automatically is in manual (sport) mode with alle the feature of aggressive throttle and exhaustopening. But nontheless, the car does feel faster in S mode (also when you put the gearstick to the left and then go into manual by pulling a paddle)

For example:
- put it in S mode and drive about 40kph and then put the throttle all the way down and accelerate hard
- put it in S mode, but then pull a paddle to go in manual mode, select the right gear (for 40kphs I would say 2nd) and then put the throttle all the way down and accelerate hard

= the car feels faster in the first version of the two
 
#13 ·
For me it's only the sound, S uses lower gears, then you would do in M, on normal driving.
I prefer driving in D, with using the paddle shifters before cornering, or for a short sprint. This is the point, where curve hold works....now shifts up or down, as long as you keep the engine under pressure (uphill and downhill), afterwards D is back immediately and the gears will be shifted up an down again.
 
#14 ·
Official just confirmed what I said above.

M works the same way whether you are in D or S. But S has the aggressive throttle mapping, so if you are fooled by that, yes the car will feel faster.

Curve hold is not absolute. It only needs to hold to prevent the shift from upsetting the balance of the car. (And by the way, plenty of other cars have this same feature/programming.) Unless the gyroscope is reading a fairly high g and you are aggressive with the throttle, there is no need to hold the gear for balance purposes. The car is behaving exactly as it should in automatic mode.

If you want to hold the gear because as a human you can see what's coming next and it would be better to hold it, or you just prefer for any random reason, that's what M is for. The reason people prefer manual transmissions is because they can never program a car to anticipate all situations. Personally, I prefer an auto with manual mode. It's about 2% of the time that I need to control the gears because the car wouldn't be smart enough to. I'll avoid 9 million needless clutch depresses in favour of having proper manual control like the P* provides (and that most cars with a so-called manual mode do not because they ignore your instructions under all sorts of situations).
 
#15 ·
All starts to make sense now.

It is a pitty the throttle response is not the same in Manual mode like it is in Sport mode. The car feels just stronger and racier.
Why not having the best of both in manual mode? They should update that software, so the throttle response in manual mode is the same like in sport mode.
 
#17 ·
I think there was a misunderstanding: Polestar just confirmed there is the same aggressive throttle response in S AND in M mode (compared to normal D mode).

I know it sounds like a big deal (which actually it isnt) but I can swear the car just feels racier in S than it does in M mode... And the user madden confirmed my feeling. Wondering if others feel the same. Johann obviously does not
 
#18 ·
I feel the opposite. I usually can't keep myself from hitting manual, just to keep the revs up above 2 and 3K when at a steady speed so the push into the seat be a little greater thanx to the torque multiplication of a lower gear when I press the go-faster peddle.

Perhaps the Auto-S mode's smarts is at work to give you the effect? Knowing better than us the proper gear this boosted engine should be in to give you the accelleration. I wish I could drive your roads to be able to feel the effect you are describing.
 
#19 ·
Has anyone considered the effect of the exhaust system? Beyond sounding glorious, Sport Mode also allows for freer flowing air through the exhaust. Does this affect the turbos or power delivery in another way at all? Does Manualmode mimic S or D when it comes to the Exhaust?
 
#21 ·
Can someone explain what is this manual mode that is being referred to? There is manual shifting from either D or S with the paddles. There is manual shifting from S with the gear lever. If the car is in D, it will revert to D after a while if you are not using the paddles or driving aggressively. If it's in S, it will not revert to D, but continue to obey manual shift commands until you put it back into D with the lever. This is exactly how many other sporty cars with automatics operate.

What is manual mode? I know it is referred to in the owner's manual, but it isn't a "mode" like D or S.

I am also surprised to learn that activating the paddles (temporary manual shifting) in D also activates the S(port) mode exhaust and more aggressive throttle map. But despite that, I still don't know of any mode called Manual. M on the display refers to manual shifting, but that is within D mode or S mode as activated on the gear lever.
 
#22 ·
Basically there's D and S mode automatic plus S mode manual. In D mode touching the flippers will activate S mode manual. Because the stick is still in D mode only the paddles can be used for shifting and when not used for some time it will revert back to D mode by itself.

In S mode automatic the S manual mode can be activated either with the paddles or the stick and will remain in manual mode until the + paddle is held for a while.
 
#23 · (Edited)
Basically there's D and S mode automatic plus S mode manual. In D mode touching the flippers will activate S mode manual. Because the stick is still in D mode only the paddles can be used for shifting and when not used for some time it will revert back to D mode by itself.

In S mode automatic the S manual mode can be activated either with the paddles or the stick and will remain in manual mode until the + paddle is held for a while.
That's what I just said.

But "M" just means manual shifting, it's not an actual mode like S or D...do you agree?

And does using the paddles in D really activate S exhaust and throttle mapping changes? I am not aware of any other car that does this. Using paddles in D just temporarily overrides the automatic shifting in D, it doesn't activate sport modes or other features, but the P* may be different.
 
#26 ·
As soon, as you touch a paddle, no matter if you are driving in D or in S Mode, you get into 'M mode' with all the features of S Mode (exhaust etc). The only thing different (to when you have the gearshifter switched to S Mode and then hit a paddle and get into M mode) is, that it changes back to D mode if you are not using the paddles for a while. It doesnt switch back to S Mode, when you have the gearshift to the left and using the paddle.

For me, manual is also kind of a mode (but yes, you only get to this 'mode' by touching a paddle) You get full controll compared to S mode.
 
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