Correct Hif6 setup for B30E
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    1. #1

      Correct Hif6 setup for B30E

      Any ideas? I have just purchased a pair of HIF6 for my 1970 164 4 speed which currently has a set of strombergs. The engine is a 1974 B30E with factory D cam transplanted. Any ideas on neddle and springs? The SUs were originally from a 142, or so I am told. I have read somewhere that the set up for a Austin Westminister 3 litre is a good starting point.

    2. #2
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      Re: Correct Hif6 setup for B30E (dadedo)

      Considering that the cylinder and thus pulse size is the same between B20 and B30, I just bolted 'em on and they seem to work OK.
      Had a little problem getting the aircleaner box right since the bolt holes are different. The box material is a little different.
      If you can get a box from a donor car that had HIF6 carbs that would be easiest.

    3. #3
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      Re: Correct Hif6 setup for B30E (Walrus3)

      No B30 ever came from the factory with twin SU HIF6 carbs and the needle charts show just two applications for the B20. On many applications (Volvo and other makes) the setup includes a vacuum and/or electrical connection which implies external control of mixture, etc.

      If the pancake air filter presents a problem permanent filters are available for each individual carb.

      The main issue is running too rich or very lean but this should not be a problem on a daily-driver. Once the car is up-n-running with the carbs in place, correct timing/valve clearance, etc. run low-octane gas when fine-tuning the carbs getting no pinging under load, smooth idle and no stumble at initial drive-off (warm engine with carbs too lean). It helps to have eliminated any distributor/coil/ignition/spark(plugs) problems before setting up the carbs. With everything looking good on low-octane gas switch to premium for a few tanks then back to panther pee if no performance gains.

      George Dill


    4. #4

      Re: Correct Hif6 setup for B30E (gdill2)

      George - Thank you for your advice. Andrew

    5. #5

      Re: Correct Hif6 setup for B30E (Walrus3)

      George. Thank you for your advice. Volvos were not sold in Australia with the Hif6 dual combo as far as I am aware. yes on 244 single carby. Any knowledge of the model as sold in USA? Thanks Andrew

    6. #6
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      Re: Correct Hif6 setup for B30E (gdill2)

      In Jometry we learned that things equal to the same thing are equal to each other. (We also learned, to the old man's dismay that pie are square)
      Anyway as best I can tell the Strombergs that came on B30s are pretty much the same as used on the B20s. For that reason I concluded that it was probably worthwhile to just bolt the HIF6s on a B30 and see how they did. They seemed to to pretty well. Rhys Kent recently advised me that the BAL or BBB needles used on B20 HIF6s were probably good for the B30 also based on the size of the vacuum pulse (about 500cc) from each cylinder. I conclude likewise that, if I can find a triple carb manifold for a B30 that takes sidedraft carbs, the same needles would probably be at least a good place to start. Note that the pulses are NOT symmetrical on the B20 - for symmetrical pulses you would have to have one carb on cylinders 1 and 4 and the other one on 2 and 3. (Interesting manifolding!)
      The 2-carb manifold on the B30 is more nearly symmetrical but a 3-carb manifold is not - for symmetry of pulses you'd have to pair them 1-6, 2-5 and 3-4, so only the center carb would see symmetrical pulses.

    7. #7
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      Re: Correct Hif6 setup for B30E (Walrus3)

      Indeed - pie are square - cake are round.

      Somebody outta work up a new batch of triple-carb intake manifolds for the B30 using SU HS6 carbs.

      Not me.

      George Dill


    8. #8
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      Re: Correct Hif6 setup for B30E (gdill2)

      I think there is a guy considering it. He has a new one and is considering getting castings made. I had an e-mail from him asking if I was interested
      (I was) but somehow outlook express ate it and about 1000 other messages in my inbox. I might find my reply in sent msgs.

      Another thing I am considering is taking a B30F manifold and a couple B18 aluminum manifolds to a friend and having him fab something. I'll have to take a head and exhaust manifolds so that what happened on the AQ170 manifold doesn't eventuate here. The front loop on the AQ170 manifold would not clear the #2 exhaust passage. (and the downdraft solex carbs are not very good on cars, from what I hear)


    9. #9
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      Re: Correct Hif6 setup for B30E (Walrus3)

      Regarding triple SUs on six-bangers, this was tried at one time on the Jag E-Type and the Austin-Healey MkII or III (I can't remember which) and they were a real bugger to balance.
      '88 244 auto (parts car), '89 244 5 spd. (daily driver), '92 245 5 spd. (my car) '80 Holiday Rambler/Ford E350 (tow vehicle and track crash pad), '95 GMC K2500 (local hauler/back-up tow vehicle), '83 Mazda RX7 (race car when I have the funds), '99 Miska 20' car hauler.

      The man's prayer: "I'm a man, but I can change, ... if I have to, ... I guess."

    10. #10
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      Re: Correct Hif6 setup for B30E (John2x240)

      I keep hearing about problems balancing multiple SUs but over the 40+ years I have been working on cars with dual SUs the problem has not materialized for me. I would think with adequate balance tubes and idle coming off at exactly the same time, it should not be too bad.

    11. #11

      Re: Correct Hif6 setup for B30E (dadedo)

      Hi there,
      I pulled a pair of these Hif6's off a 1970 B30A 164 auto years ago and have them still so have checked the needles for you and they are BCA. Never saw the car run so can't vouch for performance. I presume somebody put these on the car after getting fed up with the Strombergs. The airbox was slightly modified from memory to suit the SU's.
      I have SX needles in the triple SU side bowls and they worked well. It was always ok to tune the triple SU's as they were all renovated with new shafts, needles and jets etc. No worse than twins apart from the obvious extra carb.
      Cheers,
      Jim.

    12. #12
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      Re: Correct Hif6 setup for B30E (164 nut)

      Hey Jim!
      What manifolds were used with the triple carbs?
      Many thanks!

    13. #13
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      Re: Correct Hif6 setup for B30E (dadedo)

      Dadedo -
      Far as I know all the carbureted automotive B30s (B30A) in the US came with Zenith Stromberg 175CD2 carbs, not user-adjustable. Dealers had a screw-press rig that they could use to push the jet up and down with the carb disassembled. The jet seemed to be pressed in place.
      I understand that there are adjustable 175CD carbs but I have only seen pictures. Never had one in my hands.
      All the US models came with the "C" cam also, even the fuel injected ones. They seem to respond well to better cams - I have an Isky/IPD VV71 in my '69.

    14. #14

      Re: Correct Hif6 setup for B30E (Walrus3)

      It is an alloy manifold that I suspect was a Penta part as I have seen some threads in NZ where these were used on some ski boats but they appear to be rare.
      It mates up with the exhaust manifold from the B30E fuel injected motors.
      http://www.164-140club.de/html/303max.htm
      Found the above that looks new and authentic. And below links are pics of my setup (been neglected for 15 yrs...
      http://i698.photobucket.com/al...53600
      http://i698.photobucket.com/al...53780
      http://i698.photobucket.com/al...53834
      http://i698.photobucket.com/al...53898
      http://i698.photobucket.com/al...53945


    15. #15
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      Re: Correct Hif6 setup for B30E (Walrus3)

      Quote, originally posted by Walrus3 »
      I keep hearing about problems balancing multiple SUs but over the 40+ years I have been working on cars with dual SUs the problem has not materialized for me. I would think with adequate balance tubes and idle coming off at exactly the same time, it should not be too bad.

      True, twin SUs are easy. I had lots of experience with them back in my MG/Austin-Healey/Volvo 142 days using a Uni-Syn. It's the triples on L6s that gave trouble in balancing them, or at least it was back in the '60s.

      '88 244 auto (parts car), '89 244 5 spd. (daily driver), '92 245 5 spd. (my car) '80 Holiday Rambler/Ford E350 (tow vehicle and track crash pad), '95 GMC K2500 (local hauler/back-up tow vehicle), '83 Mazda RX7 (race car when I have the funds), '99 Miska 20' car hauler.

      The man's prayer: "I'm a man, but I can change, ... if I have to, ... I guess."

    16. #16
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      Re: Correct Hif6 setup for B30E (John2x240)

      James - your photobucket pics misfire - open each pic and paste the photobucket url directly into your Swdespeed reply/edit. Thanks.

      All - the triple SU HS6 carb setup is no more difficult to run than twins. As with the B18/20 you must have the engine in good working order before finalizing carb settings. The linkage must activate each carb identically (including the idle speed screw) and the choke setup must be uniform and not affect carb running with choke "OFF". Start with 12 flats from full lean and two turns of the idle screw then make adjustments on a fully warmed but not hot idling engine. Make four-flat changes to each carb (start with richer) without touching the idle screws and note any rpm changes and/or stumbling. If the rpm gets too low with no stumble up each idle screw one turn. Once the engine begins to lose rpm and/or stumble lean the jets two-flats-at-a-time until the idle begins to smooth out. Adjust all idle screws exactly the same until the engine settles into warm idle at about 1,000rpm. Remember to "blip" the throttle after each adjustment as this should negate any pre-tensioned changes in the setup. Drive the car checking for pinging, stumble, stalling, overheating, bucking, etc. If all is well re-adjust the idle screws and set the choke linkage for warm or cold weather as applicable. This setup will result in a "rich" mixture. For those desiring a leaner setting repeat the process but turn two flats toward lean until the idle stumbles then back two flats toward rich. This setup will need more choke in cold weather and will require the choke to be partially "ON" until the engine warms fully. None of this will work if the timing is off, spark is faulty, valves mis-adjusted, etc. or one or more carbs is faulty. On the B30 with all-steel timing gears one of the most common booboos is installing the gears with the marks one tooth off.

      Go for it, y'all!

      George Dill


    17. #17
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      Re: Correct Hif6 setup for B30E (164 nut)

      The links appear to have something missing in the middle.
      (Except the first one)
      BTW that appears to be the AQ165 Penta manifold. Apparently it was quickly replaced with the AQ170 which used downdraft A44 Solex carbs.
      The last several links lead to the photobucket homepage.
      Could you give them another shot?
      Thanks,
      GFD III

    18. #18
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      Re: Correct Hif6 setup for B30E (Walrus3)


    19. #19
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      Re: Correct Hif6 setup for B30E (gdill2)

      Dunno but looks pretty good.....

    20. #20

      Re: Correct Hif6 setup for B30E (Walrus3)

      [IMG][/IMG]http://i698.photobucket.com/albums/vv348/164nut/Triplefrontview.jpg
      [IMG][/IMG]http://s698.photobucket.com/albums/vv348/164nut/Triplemiddlemount.jpg


      Think this is better, sorry for the wrong links before.

      Cheers, Jim.


      Modified by 164 nut at 4:02 AM 10-26-2009


    21. #21
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      Re: Correct Hif6 setup for B30E (164 nut)


    22. #22
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      Re: Correct Hif6 setup for B30E (gdill2)

      Now back to "Correct Hif6 setup for B30E"

      Here is a good write-up on HIF6...

      http://www.visn2.com/Flash%20W....html

      ...and tons of 164 info here...

      http://www.164club.se/indexen.html

      More SU info...

      http://www.sucarb.co.uk/Technical.aspx

      Now for some fun.

      Go here...

      http://www.sucarb.co.uk/ProductSearch.aspx

      and search for hif6.

      From http://www.volvo164.com/index.php?page=23&y=&num=2
      ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
      Phil Ward
      England
      -
      2007-08-15, 16:41:26
      Hi All.
      I am a long time owner of 164's and currently own three. I was dismayed to see no fellow countrymen of mine bigging the 164 up.
      I have owned many different Volvo's over the years but the 164 always comes out on top. For those of you who think they are gas guzzlers my advice is LOOSE THE AWFUL BW35 AND FIT A CLUTCH AND MANUAL 4 SPEED + OVERDRIVE. My 1970 twin carb does 30 miles per gallon on a good run!
      My other advice is to ditch the stromberg carbs and fit SU's (having first removed the secondary throttle butterflies and blanked the spindle holes) The needle which seems to work the best for an SU HIF6 is the one designated for the Austin Westminster 3 litre. I am in the process of rebuilding the back end of this car and should have it back on the road before the winter.
      Keep the faith.
      Phil Ward
      -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

      George Dill


    23. #23
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      Re: Correct Hif6 setup for B30E (gdill2)


    24. #24
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      Re: Correct Hif6 setup for B30E (gdill2)

      Well, with 2 HIF6 carbs on my 164 I have done like Phil Ward suggested (at least 10 years ago) and also tune pretty much like is specified on the SU website. I guess I feel like I have not gone too far astray in that particular respect....

    25. #25
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      Re: Correct Hif6 setup for B30E (Walrus3)


    26. #26

      Re: Correct Hif6 setup for B30E (gdill2)

      Now that is a nice setup. Interesting fuel delivery. Obviously a RHD car by the looks of the brake bar and the battery must be in the boot. Do you know where it came from and what type of manifold it is George?

    27. #27
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      Re: Correct Hif6 setup for B30E (164 nut)

      It came from Australia and the manifold was fabbed by attaching the triple carb portion of a manifold for another brand of 6 cylinder engine to the flanges of a B30F FI manifold. Happened to be really close to the correct spacing. (Whoever e-mailed me the facts on this is welcome to correct or add to the above!) I've been thinking about doing something similar with a couple of aluminum B18 manifolds and an FI manifold but other projects have higher priority at the moment. (Doing something about the pint of water that comes out the tailpipe every time I start the 69 164, for example.)

    28. #28

      Re: Correct Hif6 setup for B30E (Walrus3)

      Ah, yes. I have seen similar looking manifolds (grooved bridging balance) in ads in Australian Street Machine magazine. Most likely a mob called Redline Performance http://www.redlineauto.com.au
      Wonder which one matched up to the B30 head ports the best...
      As these cars get older, and given there seems to be a few people wanting a similar setup, it might almost justify a run???
      BTW is your 164 pumping condensation or something more sinister and green?
      Got my old 164 (twin carb version BW35 yuck yuck yuck) running on a permit at the moment with a view to getting it registered again before Christmas. Have done a few shakedown runs over the past few days and it still runs a bit warm in traffic but hums along the highway. These old girls with the quarter vent windows always send you deaf with wind whistles. Has anyone ever come up with a fix that works? In the past I have had adhesives strong enough to bond to the glass that slivers of glass come away with the lock. There were those chrome channels about but not sure if I can get my hands on a functional set.
      Silly fibre timing gear has the death rattles too so might have to swap the steel set over. Once I eliminate wind whistles and timing gear I might be able to hear the thing run.
      And then there is the heater tap...and...inevitably petrified leather...

      Cheers,
      Jim.


    29. #29
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      Re: Correct Hif6 setup for B30E (164 nut)

      Seems to be coolant. I suspect either a damaged headgasket or possible head damage when grandson #2 dropped a valve into cylinder #2. Apparently it was sticky enough that it only fell all the way in on shutdown.
      There were a few dings around the valve guide and a print but not really a dent on the top of the piston. I had the head redone by the wrong guy. He put in new bronze valve guides and it was several months before I got the head back on. I really need to work on it but it is mostly prepped (stripped of chrome, doorhandles and everything else) for bodywork and painting now and lots of other projects claiming my attention.
      I've had a 75 electronic ignition for it for years, also steel gears, but other than the water problem it is running great so motivation is low.

    30. #30
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      Re: Correct Hif6 setup for B30E (164 nut)

      Quote, originally posted by 164 nut »
      Ah,These old girls with the quarter vent windows always send you deaf with wind whistles. Has anyone ever come up with a fix that works?

      It is the mirrors making the noise.

      New vent window seals, aftermarket tension-adjustable locks and a pair of "wings" on the lower leading edge of the roof gutters will cut the noise down a bunch.

      Here is a plastic version but I prefer the stainless strip type with holes...

      http://ep.yimg.com/ca/I/go-kat-go_2077_1109959

      George Dill


    31. #31

      Re: Correct Hif6 setup for B30E (gdill2)

      Thank you all for the advice. I am going initially with the needle/spring set up as per the Austin Westminster 3 litre for the Hif6 pair and see where that takes us. I have a D cam from a 1974 B30E and matching FI head to go onto the B30A. Any alternative suggestions for a matching cam? Andrew

    32. #32
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      Re: Correct Hif6 setup for B30E (dadedo)

      A B30 D cam is a pretty good start! They are unknown in the US!

    33. #33

      Re: Correct Hif6 setup for B30E (Walrus3)

      Dropped valve sounds nasty.
      Do those 1975 electronic ignitions work on earlier carbie engines and do you need the later distributor? I saw a couple of them come up on ebay but was not sure if they work or not.
      Cheers,
      James.

    34. #34
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      Re: Correct Hif6 setup for B30E (164 nut)

      Quote, originally posted by 164 nut »
      Do those 1975 electronic ignitions work on earlier carbie engines and do you need the later distributor?

      Yes, and yes (aside from the obvious: needing an injector head, injectors, fuel rail, etc.). In addition to the '75 distributor, there is also an ignition control module that you will need for everything to operate.

      Lee,
      2013 Jetta Sportwagen TDI 6MT, Platinum Gray/Titan Black (his)
      2013 Jetta Sportwagen TDI DSG, Tempest Blue/Cornsilk Beige (hers)
      1974 164E

    35. #35
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      Re: Correct Hif6 setup for B30E (R Salesman)

      You don't need to change the head or get fuel injection to use the electronic (1975) distributor, but you DO need the distributor and module. It is easier if you get the wiring that goes between them also. I'm pretty sure the module from an early 240 will work OK.
      I have more of them than I have 164s so contact me offnet if interested.

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