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Clutch Question

29K views 63 replies 17 participants last post by  xaero 
#1 ·
Hey guys,
I have an 04 s60R 6MT.
I've done some extensive searching and can't seem to find a direct answer, so I need a little help.

Right now my clutch is slipping like crazy, so it's clearly time for a new one. So instead of just getting a new stock clutch I thought i would put in the extra $$ and get something that could handle a little more horsepower that I would like to add to the car.

So I landed on the SPEC stage 3+ clutch sold at VIVA. The problem is, while I'm down there, I would also like to replace the slave cylinder, throw-out bearing and flywheel, and the SPEC 3+ only come with the clutch.

I'm wondering if a stock control cylinder (slave cylinder/TOB) (PN 31259446) will work with the SPEC 3+, AND if I can use an '94 850R single mass flywheel (PN 9454774) as well.

This is a lot of mixing and matching so let me know if it is possible.
Thanks you.

Elliott
 
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#28 ·
Re: (LBG)

Quote, originally posted by LBG »


Alright so I have all the pieces now, the 707 pressure plate, the 850R single mass flywheel, and OEM s60R disk. I got them balanced and I am ready to re-install the entire clutch system. After installing the new flywheel, I ran into a small problem bolting the pressure plate on the flywheel with the disk in between. The disk seems to be preventing the pressure plate from fully touching up against the flywheel?!? (about 1/2 an inch) Does this mean that I need a clutch compression tool, or should I just tighten down the bolts of the pressure plate until it does fully reach the flywheel? (I tried this a little bit and it sounded like I was squishing the disk to much, but maybe that is normal). Any help would be awesome, thanks guys.

no way...you actually did this. http://********************/smile/emthup.gif http://********************/smile/emthup.gif http://********************/smile/emthup.gif to you my friend.
1st off, did you grind down the bolts for the fw?
2nd, you have to install the disk backwards...yes, backwards....otherwise the disk hub will be riding almost on the end of the input shaft splines, this is also why you have to grind down the bolts...(or maybe get 850 bolts, not sure if they have smaller profile) because the disk hub protrudes slightly more on the pp side, which is your new fw side.

and what you described is perfectly normal, when installing the clutch disk, put everything together and only slightly tighten the pp so you could still slide the disk around to properly align it(see my other thread for the tool). Once you completely sure the disk is aligned, start tqing down in criss cross, or star pattern about 1 turn at a time at first, then about half to qtr once the bolts become harder to tighten....you'll hear the disk squishing a bit as the pp applies the force, you'll also notice the pp fingers start to compress.
 
#29 ·
Re: (rushin_max)

I have a bit of a problem. So after reconnecting everything the clutch was very loose. But when I pushed it down really hard I was able to put the car in gear with the car on. After bleeding the clutch to tighten it up, I now cannot put the car in gear when it's on. Any ideas?
 
#30 ·
Re: (LBG)

Sorry to hear that man, sounds like your clutch is not releasing. Are you absolutely sure you bled the clutch properly...it took me about 20-30 min to do it with my friend, you have to turn that damn bleed screw almost a full turn....not as easy as the brakes, also you have to keep pulling up the pedal every-time until the pressure builds up...also, the car has to be off(i'm pretty sure). I don't understand why you tried putting the car in gear without bleeding the clutch and with the car on(engine running)?
...that's kind of dangerous.

How does the pedal feel right now? it supposed to be really stiff, if not, bleed the clutch again....with the engine off this time.
 
#31 ·
Re: (LBG)

Quote, originally posted by LBG »
I have a bit of a problem. So after reconnecting everything the clutch was very loose. But when I pushed it down really hard I was able to put the car in gear with the car on. After bleeding the clutch to tighten it up, I now cannot put the car in gear when it's on. Any ideas?

i replaced my clutch in my t5...same problem. I even bled mine with the Motive brake bleeder.


it catches very very low down on the pedal, and it feels as if there is no bottom to the pedal
.
 
#32 ·
Re: (rushin_max)

Quote, originally posted by rushin_max »

Sorry to hear that man, sounds like your clutch is not releasing. Are you absolutely sure you bled the clutch properly...it took me about 20-30 min to do it with my friend, you have to turn that damn bleed screw almost a full turn....not as easy as the brakes, also you have to keep pulling up the pedal every-time until the pressure builds up...also, the car has to be off(i'm pretty sure). I don't understand why you tried putting the car in gear without bleeding the clutch and with the car on(engine running)?
...that's kind of dangerous.

How does the pedal feel right now? it supposed to be really stiff, if not, bleed the clutch again....with the engine off this time.

I think I bled it correctly, I've never done it before. Right now the clutch is really stiff, but I may not have gotten all the air bubbles out because it didn't take me 20-30 mins. Im going to try and bleed the clutch a little more. But I had another idea as well. When I replaced the throwout bearing I just took it off and put a new one on, (nothing special) and a little bit of break fluid came out when I did it. But what I'm confused about is that the bleeding nipple for the clutch is before the throwout bearing, so what if there is air in the throwout bearing itself, bleeding the clutch would not get that air out. It totally bypasses it. Is this a problem?!?


By the way, the reason I put it into gear without bleeding the clutch was because I really didn't know what the heck I was doing.
 
#33 ·
Re: (LBG)

Quote, originally posted by LBG »


But what I'm confused about is that the bleeding nipple for the clutch is before the throwout bearing, so what if there is air in the throwout bearing itself, bleeding the clutch would not get that air out. It totally bypasses it. Is this a problem?!?


Yeah, I was stumped about that too at first....but once the tranny is on the engine, the angle at which the slave+tube are positioned makes it so the air bubbles float to the top, to the nipple(if that makes any sense).

also, did you make sure that the disk hub wasn't interfering with the flywheel bolts?....that's why I had to grind my bolts down a few mm.
 
#34 ·
Re: (LBG)

Not sure if this will be of any help or not, but when i had a Spec II+ put in my T-5 it was nearly impossible to get into gear for the first 1000 or so miles then it got better and was normal after about 1500 miles.

When in gear I believe it was disengaged correctly because the car did not try to move and the clutch action was normal. It was so bad that i had it re-bled and called Spec to see if they had any idea (they were of no help btw)

For the first couple of hundred I was that moron at lights that would not go when it turned green, not because i wasn't paying attention, but because i could not get the &^%$&(* thing in gear
 
#35 ·
Re: (rushin_max)

Quote, originally posted by rushin_max »


Yeah, I was stumped about that too at first....but once the tranny is on the engine, the angle at which the slave+tube are positioned makes it so the air bubbles float to the top, to the nipple

Oh ok that makes sense. Just wanted to make sure I didn't screw anything up when I changed the tob. I would be so bummed if I had to go back in there.


Quote, originally posted by rushin_max »
also, did you make sure that the disk hub wasn't interfering with the flywheel bolts?....that's why I had to grind my bolts down a few mm.

Yeah I definitely did that. I held the disk to the flywheel with my hand and felt the rubbing, so I ground them down and it clears the bolts now.
I'm going to see if I can't bleed the system a little more on sunday, and hopefully that will work. I'll let you guys know.
 
#36 ·
Re: (LBG)

Well I have bleed the clutch. A lot of different ways too. No air bubbles at all. It's stiff and seems ready to go, but I still cannot put it into gear with the engine running. I tried a few tests though. I put it into gear and started the car on the street and was able to drive in first and even put it into second, but it didn't sound very good, like grinding. So clearly the clutch is not engaging.

rushin_max: You have the exact same clutch and flywheel as me right? All I can think of is that the TOB is not long enough to push the pp fingers down far enough to disengage from the disk. I must be wrong though if you have the same modification on your R.

At this point I can't think of anything else that could be wrong.
What do you guys think?
 
#37 ·
Re: (LBG)

If you have 850 fw + 707 plate+ oem R clutch, you shouldn't have any issues....I measured the stack height of my oem dmf+clutch, which was around 80mm, 850 fw+707 plate is almost exactly the same height.

You have any pix of your set up?

The only thing I could think of is your disk got warped during the install.

try checking your clutch engagement...w/ engine OFF:
lift the front up, put the car in 1st, and try rotating the drive shaft while an asisstant has the clutch pedal all the way down...the tranny should spin freely. If your clutch is not disengaging, you won't be able to spin the drive shaft.

Modified by rushin_max at 11:43 AM 12-19-2009
 
#38 ·
Re: (rushin_max)

rushin_max did you use a tob spacer?

Also just tried the engagement test for the clutch. The front is jacked up and when the car is in gear (w/ engine off) the tires still rotate. What do you think this means?

Modified by LBG at 12:10 AM 12-20-2009
 
#39 ·
Re: (LBG)

The tires will rotate because your spinning the diff., If you say the car was in gear w/ clutch disengaged, and you were able to rotate the drive shaft...that means the clutch was releasing from the fw, so it sounds like your problem is elsewhere. If it wasn't releasing you wouldn't be able to spin the drive shaft because from the engine compression....or unless you're so buff you could crank the engine by hand.

Because of the open diff in the tranny, the only way to spin the gears inside the tranny to spin the input shaft is either with drive shaft(like I suggested), or both front wheels at the same time....if you spin only one wheel, the other one will spin in the opposite direction because of how the open diff operates.

There's no need for TOB spacer. If I remember correctly, when the TOB is fully compressed you have ~80-85mm from the bearing to tranny mounting surface, the TOB has about 15 mm of travel, so your fw+pp stack height could be anywhere from 85mm max, to 70mm min....any less then 70mm, then you'll require a tob spacer(otherwise the slave will just pop the bearing off the guide sleeve).

...just in case, make sure your engine is not rotating when you doing the dis-engagement test.

I'm guessing your clutch is releasing, but for whatever reason the disk still slightly interferring w/ flywheel....Maybe it's slightly warped, or still hitting the fw bolts. When you rotate the shaft, do you hear any noise coming from the fw area(w/ car in gear clutch disengaged)?

You could try wearing it in a bit by slipping the clutch and hopefully all the highspots will wear off. Could also be that your fw is not flush against the crank....usually happens when thread locker gets on the mating surface, same thing goes for the pressure plate.

I say try driving it and slip the clutch, kind of like bedding in the breaks, all the highspots will wear off eventually...just don't over-do it.

1more thing, did you use the spline grease for the input shaft?
 
#40 ·
Re: (rushin_max)

After a long and grueling clutch replacement job, here are a couple of photos to show a little of what was going on in my garage for the last month or two. I actually finished the job a few weeks ago but lost my USB cable to retrieve the pics off my camera. The way we fixed the shifting problem was pretty simple but really sucked to do.
All I had to do was burn the clutch a bit to wear down some high spots, which consisted of the R being started in 1st and, with the e-break up and the clutch in, reving the engine up to about 3k rpms, and slowly letting up the clutch. After doing that a few times I was finally able to put the car in gear with the engine running, but it was still difficult to do. This was no problem though, because after about 50 or so miles it was finally worn in to perfect shifting quality. The R runs great again and the clutch is stiff and extremely responsive. Overall this is an awesome mod to have. http://********************/smile/emthup.gif

Also thanks so much for all your guys help on this job, especially rushin max for presenting the mod in the first place. http://********************/smile/emthup.gif http://********************/smile/emthup.gif http://********************/smile/emthup.gif














Old Clutch.















Sometime you have to get in some crazy positions when working on the caR. This is when I had to put my steering shaft back into my steering column.

The finished product!


 
#42 ·
Re: (Impulse922)

Quote, originally posted by Impulse922 »
do you have any dead pedal now?

No, that stiffened right up after we bled the clutch system. http://********************/smile/emthup.gif
 
#43 ·
Re: (LBG)

Congrats! http://********************/smile/emthup.gif


You had me a bit worried there. lol


Glad to hear you it's all good now, I'm relieved. Also very impressed you actually did it.

I've already put close to 6k miles on mine, so far so good... already endured a few firm launches without a problem(no slip). My leg's getting tired though, lol the pedal pressure difference is quite significant.
Let me compare: I have an mk3 golf w/ o2o tranny w/ cable clutch(no hydraulics), and when I first got the R the oem clutch was slightly softer than the clutch on my golf. Now, however, when I try driving the golf, the pedal feels like it's hooked up to a rubber band. I actually thought I snapped my clutch cable when I switched back for the first time, because I couldn't feel any resistance in the pedal.
I hope my left butt-cheek doesn't get bigger from all this work out.


BTW, Does your tranny chatter below 2k rpm also?
 
#45 ·
Re: (rushin_max)

Quote, originally posted by rushin_max »
My leg's getting tired though, lol the pedal pressure difference is quite significant.

Yeah for sure. I sometimes drive Felix801's R and there is definitely a huge difference.
And the slipping is completely gone.

Quote, originally posted by rushin_max »
BTW, Does your tranny chatter below 2k rpm also?

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by chatter, but mine doesn't seem make any noise like that that.
Have you investigated what this could be?
 
#46 ·
Re: (LBG)

Quote, originally posted by LBG »

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by chatter, but mine doesn't seem make any noise like that that.
Have you investigated what this could be?

I came up with conclusion that it was the disk....since it was not designed for single mass fw, it doesn't damp the engine vibrations efficiently transmitting it to the gearbox through the input shaft which results in tranny chatter(gears vibrating inside the box), happens to a lot of people when switching to solid hub disk. It goes away completely with clutch disengaged, but when idling or under load before 2K rpm, I hear a ... clankclankclankclank... chatter that fades away as the rpms climb.

Although, you say you don't have any noise, so now I'm wondering if it might be just a rattle from something loose....hmm. Could also be my new diff.

I'll try to post a vid. of the noise.

Before I start diggin' though, could you please give me a fav. and make sure it's indeed silent..... just turn the car on and let it idle, then open the hood and listen by the tranny for any chatter,clicking, or whatever you wanna call it,..... or try listening for any noise under 2k rpm when driving(I usually get the most noise when I bog the engine under 2k rpm at wot,.... so just drive it next to a wall or some other sound reflective object at ~15-20mph in 3rd and give it full throttle and listen.
Appreciate it.
 
#47 ·
Re: (rushin_max)

Quote, originally posted by rushin_max »


I came up with conclusion that it was the disk....since it was not designed for single mass fw, it doesn't damp the engine vibrations efficiently transmitting it to the gearbox through the input shaft which results in tranny chatter(gears vibrating inside the box), happens to a lot of people when switching to solid hub disk. It goes away completely with clutch disengaged, but when idling or under load before 2K rpm, I hear a ... clankclankclankclank... chatter that fades away as the rpms climb.

Although, you say you don't have any noise, so now I'm wondering if it might be just a rattle from something loose....hmm. Could also be my new diff.

I'll try to post a vid. of the noise.

Before I start diggin' though, could you please give me a fav. and make sure it's indeed silent..... just turn the car on and let it idle, then open the hood and listen by the tranny for any chatter,clicking, or whatever you wanna call it,..... or try listening for any noise under 2k rpm when driving(I usually get the most noise when I bog the engine under 2k rpm at wot,.... so just drive it next to a wall or some other sound reflective object at ~15-20mph in 3rd and give it full throttle and listen.
Appreciate it.

Your totally right. I do hear the noise, but it's not very loud. I didn't realize thats what it might be. Is it a big deal?
Also, do you know anybody else with this mod?
 
#48 ·
Re: (miggel)

Quote, originally posted by miggel »
Once you try it, it would be nice to hear your reviews on the new clutch. It would be very much appreciated!
Nice job!

The clutch is awesome man. http://********************/smile/emthup.gif http://********************/smile/emthup.gif It works great and catches with real precision. If I could do something different about it though, I would try and find a better stage disk instead of the R disk. Not to say the R disk can't handle a decent amount of power, I just would prefer a higher stage. Make sure the disk is 8.4 mm though or you will have some serious problems.
 
#50 ·
Re: (LBG)

Quote, originally posted by LBG »


Yeah for sure. I sometimes drive Felix801's R and there is definitely a huge difference.
And the slipping is completely gone.

I feel like your clutch was stiffer than mine even when they were both stock? Either way, this new set up makes it sooo much stiffer! And the catch point is more precise; a HUGE improvement over the stock R's set up http://********************/smile/emthup.gif

About the chattering though, I thought we had equated that with the placement of the rubber boot that covers and silences the sounds coming from the tranny? Did you ever fix the placement on that thing? cause perhaps the chattering you are hearing is normal?
 
#51 ·
Re: (Impulse922)

Quote, originally posted by Impulse922 »
http://********************/smile/emthup.gif the stupid steering shaft boot got me too.

Actually I am still having some trouble getting the steering boot all the way on, it keeps slipping off.
Do you have any tips on how I can get it to stay?
 
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