Quote, originally posted by gascos80 » So, I am willing to give Geely the full benefits of a doubt, and for as long as I would be able to pick my European made Volvo in Europe I will stay with brand. What are you going to do when Chinese companies are selected to manufacture parts for those European made Volvos? (Remember the "loyalty" issue you cited, bro'?).
What about when car production inevitably shifts to China, like it has for so many products?
Quote, originally posted by gascos80 » Again, Apple, IBM, Sony and other grand marque names in high-tech, which moved their production to China come to my mind... Apple plants are in Malaysia, Indonesia, Ireland and Mexico, bro'. There's talk of them touring plants in China (for potential production of their 3G phones). But it's just talk.
Keep in mind, though, that there's a much different set of owner expectations between somebody buying an iPod and a $50K car or SUV.
Quote, originally posted by TMonk » (Remember the "loyalty" issue you cited, bro'?). May I ask why you write this way all the time? Ending a bunch of your responses with "bro'"? Are you trying to be affectionate? Condescending? Cool? Normal?
It's very confusing.
Quote, originally posted by TMonk » 1. What are you going to do when Chinese companies are selected to manufacture parts for those European made Volvos? (Remember the "loyalty" issue you cited, bro'?).
2. What about when car production inevitably shifts to China, like it has for so many products?
3. Apple plants are in Malaysia, Indonesia, Ireland and Mexico, bro'. There's talk of them touring plants in China (for potential production of their 3G phones). But it's just talk.
4. Keep in mind, though, that there's a much different set of owner expectations between somebody buying an iPod and a $50K car or SUV.
1. It is OK. God only knows how many parts are currently manufactured in China for other brands, and no one gives a rat's tail about it...And my educated guess is that the majority of so-called aftermarket stuff that gets into ANY car from auto parts stores is made in China anyway.
I will be more confident with the parts made exclusively for Volvo under exclusive Volvo technology than with some generic alternator from Autozone, built to unknown specs.
And guys, do you know where all those aftermarket "performance" modes are made?2. I'll wait and see. 15 years ago I would laugh to the face of anyone suggesting Hyundai as my next car. Today, I like Genesis a lot and seriously consider it as my next car, if Volvo ceases its OSD program.
Who knows where the public opinion about Chinese cars will be in 10 years...3. It is more than talk...
http://www.idealschina.com/Ins...ID=32
4. True, but keep in mind that the question was about what I think... I am not prejudice to Chinese products.
The necessity is a mother of inventions...
Back in my Soviet past I was in charge of engineering for one large mill. It was one of the newest state of the art facilities with some major equipment made by Siemens.
Shortly after the opening, we started to experience a lot of equipment failures, based on fact that the Siemens machines were built for steel sheets with much tighter tolerances that were normally produced, and could not accommodate such wide variations in thickness...Guess what, the production was forced to get their act together and stay within the prescribed tolerances...the upper management did not want to be embarrassed and forced to replace mega-million dollar investment, just because of a fraction of mills in thickness...
If Soviet could do it in early 80th, I do not see any reason why China based production facility cannot keep up with the KNOWN production and quality control requirements having appropriate technology and machinery...
Edit.I doubt that China built S80 is of any less quality than the one I drive...
I WILL get S80L if it would be available through the OSD program with pick-up in Beijing.
Modified by gascos80 at 12:28 PM 11-1-2009
Quote, originally posted by Needsdecaf » May I ask why you write this way all the time? Ending a bunch of your responses with "bro'"? Are you trying to be affectionate? Condescending? Cool? Normal?
It's very confusing.
Sorry, it's a habit.
Read my signature block if you really want to know why I use it. MLK is my idol, like he is to many around the world. His quotation about the need for us to be brothers resonates more now than at any other time in our history.
I guess it's a term of affection for mankind.
I hope this clears up any confusion, my brother.
peace
Quote, originally posted by Needsdecaf » May I ask why you write this way all the time? Ending a bunch of your responses with "bro'"? Are you trying to be affectionate? Condescending? Cool? Normal?
It's very confusing.
Just noticed you were a moderator. Now that I've explained why I use the affectionate term "brother" in my posts, perhaps you could turn your attention to more pressing issues of Swedespeed etiquette:
http://forums.swedespeed.com/z...63273
Quote, originally posted by dave_n_ruth » How about a Native American being driven back to the reservation? The fu(kers always seem to get out. Don't they know where they belong?
Or is the use of the term "brother" and an MLK quote worse than references to "fu(ker" Native Americans?
Quote, originally posted by gascos80 » I doubt that China built S80 is of any less quality than the one I drive... Very witty. I like that, brother gascos80.
ROFL.
Hey, I did not imply subpar quality at all, do not get me wrong...I love my daily drive and believe that the EUCD based Volvo is of the best quality so far. The platform is as solid as a rock...
OK. Now I understand. (It was funny, though.)Do you believe that Chinese quality control is equal to that of the Swedes, bro'?
Yes.
Where it is exercised...
Quote, originally posted by gascos80 » Yes.
Where it is exercised...I'm confused. What do you mean by "Where it is exercised..."?
Quote, originally posted by TMonk » Just noticed you were a moderator. Now that I've explained why I use the affectionate term "brother" in my posts, perhaps you could turn your attention to more pressing issues of Swedespeed etiquette:
http://forums.swedespeed.com/z...63273
Or is the use of the term "brother" and an MLK quote worse than references to "fu(ker" Native Americans?
I don't moderate the OTF. I rarely go there and even more rarely post there. I'll point it out to the mods there though.
As for your term, bro', I applaud you for having Dr. King as an idol. So many other false ones out there that people worship....
However, I would suspect that your use of the term is probably not seen in the way that you want it to be. It can come off as very condescending.
Quote, originally posted by Needsdecaf » However, I would suspect that your use of the term is probably not seen in the way that you want it to be. It can come off as very condescending. I see. That would be very unfortunate, and quite unintentional.
How could I make the quote more prominent? I've noticed that some people use red font, but I don't know how to do this.
I was making an absurd remark in reference to a post in the OTF. It was supposed to sound completely ignorant and ridiculous as it pertained to a similar situation in Gaza. Why is this being brought into a different thread under News & Rumors?
Just as I wonder why a moderator is contacting me to explain my use of the term "brother"... especially when my signature contains a quote explaining why.I could have just as easily quoted gascos80, whose response to an African-American was:
Quote, originally posted by gascos80 » As the Russian proverb says (in loose translation) - Someone loves the watermelons, someone loves the pig's tails... or an earlier blatantly racist post:
Quote, originally posted by dave_n_ruth » The test was culturally biased. Had they asked," When yo moms goes to hers pimp and gives em da Benjamin shes just gots from her trick, what does she gets back!" They would have replied, "A dimebag and some George Washingtons biiiooottch!" 
But I'm getting hacked-on by a mod over the use of the term "brother".
It seems everything is game here -- even overt racism -- as long as somebody doesn't question Volvo.
This is not the way we should be acting, brothers and sisters.
Quote, originally posted by TMonk » But I'm getting hacked-on by a mod over the use of the term "brother".
It seems everything is game here -- even overt racism -- as long as somebody doesn't question Volvo.
This is not the way we should be acting, brothers and sisters.
Sorry, I'm not hacking you. Just making an observation. And I don't mean it to be racist. In fact, I really didn't make any assumptions about your race until you said "overt racism".
I see the quote in your signature (you can make it bold, btw.), and agree with Mr. King's assertions. We should all learn to respect one another a lot more. I live in one of the worst areas for people respecting each other in this country...and it has nothing to do with race, just attitude.
However, I just don't understand how adding bro' everywhere furthers that message. I do not mean to be racist, I just don't understand the connection. Looking for enlightenment, not condemnation.
As for "everything game here", well, the OTF is the OTF. As I said, I don't post there very often, because I think that there's a lack of understanding of other people's viewpoints. And there's a lot less of a restriciton on what is said there, vs. the other parts of the board.
Quote, originally posted by TMonk »
I could have just as easily quoted gascos80, whose response to an African-American was:Hey, bro'
I stronly object palying the racist card with me.
1. The Internet is color-blind. I do not know and moreover, do not care about the race of the poster.
2. I stated more than once - the Russian proverb is related to the differences in individual's taste. Nothing less, nothing more...It refers to two food items that cannot be any more different...Please look eleswhere for the racist references...
Quote, originally posted by Needsdecaf » As for "everything game here", well, the OTF is the OTF... And there's a lot less of a restriciton on what is said there, vs. the other parts of the board. The other two posts were from the car lounge, not OTF. I suppose you're now going to tell me that the rules in the car lounge are different?
Liberal rules on some forums are one thing. Racism, which is illegal in this country, is another. Or do you not think that the law applies to this forum?
You and fellow moderators need to clean this up, bro'.
Quote, originally posted by Needsdecaf » However, I just don't understand how adding bro' everywhere furthers that message. I do not mean to be racist, I just don't understand the connection. Looking for enlightenment, not condemnation. I provided it. I use the term to remind myself, and others, that we're able to overcome anything while we remain united. Just like the quote says.
Tell me where brotherhood is a crime and I'll stop.
I've been pretty patient here. I'm now going to sign-off to cool down; consider my next steps. Perhaps you should do the same, brother Needsdecaf.
Quote, originally posted by TMonk » I'm confused. What do you mean by "Where it is exercised..."?
And now back to the original program...
Chinese will follow the quality assurance process to the dot, when and if a proper process is adapted.
Though, if hypothetical Chinese based Volvo production facility adopts to the original/comparable production and QA processes (where I see no reasons for not to), they will be followed probably more so than in Sweden.
Quote, originally posted by TMonk » I suppose you're now going to tell me that the rules in the car lounge are different?.
They most certainly are.
Quote, originally posted by TMonk » You and fellow moderators need to clean this up, bro'.
There's nothing to clean up here. No attacks on anyone's part. That crap from the OTF? Yes.
Quote, originally posted by TMonk » Tell me where brotherhood is a crime and I'll stop..
Never told you to stop. In fact, I never even came out and said anything about your use of the phrase before asking you about it. And in the end, only provided a suggestion that it may be mis-interpreted from your message. That's all. You're free to use it at your own will. My opinion, after all, is only my opinion.
Quote, originally posted by TMonk » Perhaps you should do the same, brother Needsdecaf. I do not need to cool down. This is not anything heated to me. You are free to do as you wish, I simply had a question.
Quote, originally posted by gascos80 » This and more optimistic (reasonable?) view of China's ability to manufacture quality products...There are my friends, with the integrity and business judgment I will rely my life on, who had moved their production facilities to China and are impressed with the dedication and desire to excel of such degree that is long lost in US. To the best of my knowledge, no one in this thread has questioned whether Chinese workers are capable of manufacturing quality products. I think the question is whether a Communist owned manufacturer such as Geely (a) currently possesses the requisite knowledge to do so; and, probably more importantly, (b) whether they're actually willing to do it at the level necessary to make Volvo a player in the near-luxury car market.
I also don't think anyone in this thread has questioned the integrity, intelligence or ethic of an individual Chinese person.
Unfortunately, however, your comments almost seem to support the attitude that the workers are primarily responsible for building bad (or good) products. I can't speak for anyone else but I don't generally fault the workers. Try looking at the management of the companies for which they work and, more often than not, I think that is where you will find the source of most failures. Statements like yours (i.e., desire to excel of such degree that is long lost in US) typically accompany comments about how American workers don't know how to build a car that will truly compete with the Japanese or Germans. Those suggestions are steeped in ignorance.
American workers have the integrity, know-how and ability to produce products that will compete with the best in the world. It isn't the workers who failed GM, Ford and Chrysler. It is management who failed the workers. Some of the highest quality Toyotas, Hondas, Mercedes and BMWs are built in the States.
I also find it interesting that two of the three "grand marques" you cited are based in the US yet the we seem to have lost our desire to excel?
Quote, originally posted by gascos80 » Second, calling modern China communist is just as misleading as applying this label to Obama (Munin, wink, wink). Newsflash...modern China is a Communist nation. The comparison to Obama is insulting. Last time I checked, neither Obama nor the US government supports killing female babies or strictly censoring our individual access to the Internet and other media (YouTube, Voice of America, etc.).
Some (or all of) Obama's views may be too far to the left for you or others but he is not a Communist and, more importantly, the United States is not a Communist nation. I'll skip the civics lesson and assume you understand a bit about the way the US government works but suffice it to say, Obama doesn't make our laws. We elect representatives to vote on our behalf and make our laws. We, the people of the United States, elected those in power who both succeed and fail. We also have the power to remove them from office....none of which is true in China.
Oh, and the Chinese government does own Geely.
Quote, originally posted by gascos80 » Third, I am not convinced that Swedes, for instance, have more employee's loyalty than Chinese. In my experience, it is quite opposite. The Europeans are much more "free spirited" and more prone to the deviations from the prescribed procedures. With the right production and quality control processes in place and with the right technology China makes the best, BEST, products on market. Who made this a discussion about employee loyalty? As for the Swedes, most of our Volvos were built in Belgium.
Oh, and, are you nuts? When it comes to business, what part of German culture is remotely "free spirited?" German business is FAR from Octoberfest and weinerschnitzel...and I offer that comment from experience.
Can you give me an example of something engineered by the Chinese government that is BETTER than a comparable product engineered elsewhere? Last time I checked, IBM and Apple were publically owned American companies...and Sony...I'm pretty sure that they're Japanese.
How about an example of ANY government that manufactures a better car than a public or privately owned manufacturer? Trabant? Yugo? Bueller? Bueller?
-Eric
2009 Honda Odyssey EX-L+ENT
2005 Volvo S60R
1973 Saab Sonett III
Did Keanu Reaves ever play MLK? I can't recall ever hearing MLK use the term 'bro.
-Eric
2009 Honda Odyssey EX-L+ENT
2005 Volvo S60R
1973 Saab Sonett III
Quote, originally posted by TMonk »
or an earlier blatantly racist post:
The test was culturally biased. Had they asked," When yo moms goes to hers pimp and gives em da Benjamin shes just gots from her trick, what does she gets back!" They would have replied, "A dimebag and some George Washingtons biiiooottch!"
But I'm getting hacked-on by a mod over the use of the term "brother".It seems everything is game here -- even overt racism -- as long as somebody doesn't question Volvo.
That was in a thread about why 75% of Oklahoma students couldn't name the first president of the United States. http://forums.swedespeed.com/z...tid=0 Also in the OTF. So, your saying pop culture is now Racist?
Eric,
Why do you ask questions, if you have all the answers?
Just like in exchange with other poster you either misread my points, or ingnored them and put your words in my mouth.
I do not even know where to start...OK, I'll try...
1. Throughout the thread, I maintain a position that both government or privately owned Chinese based COMPANIES (not individuals) possess an ability to produce quality products given proper production and QA processes, technology and equipment. Are we clear here?
2. In my limited personal knowledge Chinese based COMPANIES (not individuals) are willing to adhere to the world-class quality standards if they are provided with the means to do so, i.e. procedures, technology and equipment. Are we clear here as well? Thus, if Geely obtains Volvo technology and appropriate equipment I believe they will be able to produce the same cars as factories in Sweden and Belgium. By the way - last time I checked - ALL Volvo cars I drive were built in Gothenburg, Sweden. This factory builds XC90, S80, V70 and XC70 that as of today constitute the majority of Volvo sold worldwide. Check your facts, please.
3. I prefer to ignore your entire rant about comparing and contrasting the workers in different countries. This was NOT my point at all.
4. You completely twisted my reference to grand marques. My point is that the leaders in perspective fields move their production to China, which to me indicates that Chinese based companies can manufacture quality products. Nothing else, nothing more.
5. What is insulting to Obama? Again, you completely twisted my point.
To make it clear - NEITHER Obama, nor modern China can be characterized as communist. I do not COMPARE the two. And I definitely did not imply that either Obama or US are communist.
The newsfalsh - China IS NOT communist country. There is NO and never was one single communist country on this planet. Even USSR never claimed anything beyond the "advanced socialism". USSR was in a perpetual process of building one, but as we all know, never reached that point. Read the serious publications, you might learn something.All right - I give up...
The rest of your rant is not worth of time to read...
Have a nice day...
Quote, originally posted by gascos80 » 1. Throughout the thread, I maintain a position that both government or privately owned Chinese based COMPANIES (not individuals) possess an ability to produce quality products given proper production and QA processes, technology and equipment. Are we clear here? It is you who is unclear. Please read or re-read the opening sentence of my response: "To the best of my knowledge, no one in this thread has questioned whether Chinese workers are capable of manufacturing quality products."
Capability isn't and never was the question. I won't restate the actual questions. You can go back and read them for yourself.
Quote, originally posted by gascos80 » 2. In my limited personal knowledge Chinese based COMPANIES (not individuals) are willing to adhere to the world-class quality standards if they are provided with the means to do so, i.e. procedures, technology and equipment. Are we clear here as well? Thus, if Geely obtains Volvo technology and appropriate equipment I believe they will be able to produce the same cars as factories in Sweden and Belgium. Again -- this is NOT a question of whether they are capable of doing so.
Quote, originally posted by gascos80 » By the way - last time I checked - ALL Volvo cars I drive were built in Gothenburg, Sweden. This factory builds XC90, S80, V70 and XC70 that as of today constitute the majority of Volvo sold worldwide. Check your facts, please. My apologies, I originally posted this in the R forum and keep forgetting that it was moved. Gent actually builds (or built) upwards of 250K Volvos a year...and used to produce the S60.
Quote, originally posted by gascos80 » 3. I prefer to ignore your entire rant about comparing and contrasting the workers in different countries. This was NOT my point at all. How can you make a comment like "China makes the best, BEST, products on market" or that people in Europe are more "free spirited" and now tell us that comparing countries was not your point?
All I asked was for an example of something engineered in China that is the "best, BEST" in the market? Thanks for not responding. I completely agree.
Quote, originally posted by gascos80 » 4. You completely twisted my reference to grand marques. My point is that the leaders in perspective fields move their production to China, which to me indicates that Chinese based companies can manufacture quality products. Nothing else, nothing more. You suggest that I read "serious publications" and make comments like that? Do you think Walmart promotes production of top quality goods...or are they possibly more concerned with value? Have you ever done (or tried to do) business with them? Do you believe that they have actually improved the quality of consumer goods by driving down price?
Sadly, most decisions to outsource production to China have little to do with quality and A LOT to do with cost. A lot of companies are forced into cheaper production if they want to sell to Walmart (as an example). The crap we get is a bi-product. Do companies care about quality? Absolutely. Does every company have to tailor its goods to Walmart? No -- that's just silly. I'm not suggesting that companies just farm out production to anyone willing to make a widget but the decision to turn to China isn't because they're producing the "best, BEST" stuff on the planet.
Quote, originally posted by gascos80 » 5. What is insulting to Obama? Again, you completely twisted my point. To make it clear - NEITHER Obama, nor modern China can be characterized as communist...The newsfalsh - China IS NOT communist country.
A little introduction to the People's Republic of China
Quote, originally posted by gascos80 » There is NO and never was one single communist country on this planet. Even USSR never claimed anything beyond the "advanced socialism". USSR was in a perpetual process of building one, but as we all know, never reached that point. Read the serious publications, you might learn something. That is your defense to all of this inane BS? That China isn't a truly 100% Marxist state? Where in any of my posts did I say that China fully implemented communism? Give me a break, man. Since this isn't a poli-sci forum, for argument sake let's agree that the government is 33% communist, 33% socialist and 33% authoritarian. Oh yeah...now I see how that changes everything you've said.
-Eric
2009 Honda Odyssey EX-L+ENT
2005 Volvo S60R
1973 Saab Sonett III
I would say Bye-bye, Volvo, and never look back. That's just how I feel.
Quote » The United States has, for instance, 2.3 million criminals behind bars, more than any other nation, according to data maintained by the International Center for Prison Studies at King’s College London. China, which is four times more populous than the United States, is a distant second, with 1.6 million people in prison.
SOURCE: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/23/us/23prison.html
I'd be more inclined to buy a Volvo if ownership transfer from Ford to Geely. That's just the way I feel.
2003 S80 2.9L I6 NA with 145,000 miles and counting.
Al-Qaeda does not exist. 9-11 was an inside job.
Quote, originally posted by Crito » I'd be more inclined to buy a Volvo if ownership transfer from Ford to Geely. That's just the way I feel. If you spouted the same anti-government rhetoric in China as you do on SwedeSpeed, you would be behind bars. Or worse.
Quote, originally posted by Munin » If you spouted the same anti-government rhetoric in China as you do on SwedeSpeed, you would be behind bars. Or worse.
Tell that to the 1.2 million dead Iraqis who dared disagree with the US government's foreign policy.
Quote » On Friday, 14 September 2007, ORB (Opinion Research Business), an independent polling agency located in London, published estimates of the total war casualties in Iraq since the US-led invasion of Iraq in 2003.[1] At over 1.2 million deaths (1,220,580), this estimate is the highest number published so far. I support freedom, not fascism.
2003 S80 2.9L I6 NA with 145,000 miles and counting.
Al-Qaeda does not exist. 9-11 was an inside job.
Quote, originally posted by Crito » I support freedom, not fascism. Ah yes, I forgot that China is the paragon of freedom.
Quote, originally posted by Crito » SOURCE: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/23/us/23prison.html I'd be more inclined to buy a Volvo if ownership transfer from Ford to Geely. That's just the way I feel.
You'd be more inclined to buy a car built in China simply because they house fewer criminals? Care to share your logic?
I guess I prefer to buy cars from countries with a national bikini team because that means they value...health and exercise. Yeah, that's it.
-Eric
2009 Honda Odyssey EX-L+ENT
2005 Volvo S60R
1973 Saab Sonett III
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRq1P8QuzZU&feature=related
Quote, originally posted by Crito » Tell that to the 1.2 million dead Iraqis who dared disagree with the US government's foreign policy.
I support freedom, not fascism.
Seems to me the original poll question was worded correctly...http://www.autoblog.com/2009/1...-fac/
Of course, only time will tell.
-Eric
2009 Honda Odyssey EX-L+ENT
2005 Volvo S60R
1973 Saab Sonett III
Duh...
And what did we discuss all that time? The quality of Chinese built cars...
At least it is what got Munin so mad...
I was merely offering additional factual back-up to support the previous statements which were more loosely connected to the facts.
2009 Honda Odyssey EX-L+ENT
2005 Volvo S60R
1973 Saab Sonett III
Quote, originally posted by gascos80 » At least it is what got Munin so mad... All I have done is to voice my opinion that I'm not interested in supporting a totalitarian regime any more than I have to. I haven't said a thing about quality. All a bit ironic given that you frequently like to defend yourself by accusing your critics of putting words in your mouth.
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