"Occupy Wall Street"

[rmorse]

I wasn't "comparing" Libya/Syria to the OWS> I was illustrating by example. I agree the movements are worlds apart. Doesn't mean that you can't illustrate a point by looking at each movement.

Still seems like comparing to me, but maybe I just have an issue with analogies. I take them too literal perhaps.

[TheCastro]

Rich people don't spend money? So what, they all have bank accounts with billions of dollars in them?

Rich people invest. Rich people don't have money, they have assets.




Yes, I have heard that. What does that matter? I also believe that just because a "revolution" (if you want to call it that) was started by corporations does not mean that everything they say is automatically invalid. I do believe that there are far too many restrictions on corporations/businesses, large and small. I would be very surprised if, living in Maryland, you think otherwise Castro.

I also believe that there are some restrictions on corporations that SHOULD be there and aren't. Bottom line, I believe that it is not "Down With Corporations" or "Down With Government." I think both are to blame for some of the results, and I think both need some major reconstruction for this country to move forward. It is not one or the other; both parties are heavily involved and HEAVILY flawed.





^This scares me. It scares the hell out of me that the majority (I'm assuming majority) of voters go into the polls and cast their vote based on who is Republican and who is Democratic. This is akin to the tremendous amount of blacks who were voting for Obama because he is half-black. Both parties are so incredibly hypocritical it's not even funny. Both parties are the same. Vote for the person, not the skin color, gender, age, party, etc.

First point - you answered your own question so I don't even know why you bothered to ask it.

Second point - I can't think of any restrictions that go to far, I enjoy clean air, clean water, and the comfort in knowing my fellow Americans (yes all of them, including immigrants, republicans, libritarians (although by their own accord I shouldn't care about them)) can work in safe enviornment (in general, loggers, steel mills, mines, etc are dangerous and companies should take all resonable and expected saftey precautions yet be prepared to compensate deaths of employees) and not worry about being poisoned by industrial waste.

I don't think any current regulations are actually preventing job growth, and if we removed them corporatons would just behave worse to increase their bottom line.

Third point - polls taken after people voted showed that race was not an important factor in the choice for Barak Obama, in recent elections of modern times blacks vote overwhelmingly for democrats.

[rmorse]

First point - you answered your own question so I don't even know why you bothered to ask it.

You stated (I believe) that rich people have money. That is not true, imo. Rich people do not have money, they have investments and they are continuously buying more of these investments. Inflation goes up, the price they are paying for these investments go up. Inflation goes up, their purchasing power per dollar goes down. It was a semi-rhetorical question, which I used to get my point across. I am still curious as to your response to my point.

Second point - I can't think of any restrictions that go to far, I enjoy clean air, clean water, and the comfort in knowing my fellow Americans (yes all of them, including immigrants, republicans, libritarians (although by their own accord I shouldn't care about them)) can work in safe enviornment (in general, loggers, steel mills, mines, etc are dangerous and companies should take all resonable and expected saftey precautions yet be prepared to compensate deaths of employees) and not worry about being poisoned by industrial waste.

I don't think any current regulations are actually preventing job growth, and if we removed them corporatons would just behave worse to increase their bottom line.

Those are excellent restrictions, I agree. Hence my statement that some restrictions should remain in place. "I don't think any current regulations are actually preventing job growth..." Northrop Grumman just recently moved their headquarters to Northern Virginia, and cited better business environment for their reasoning behind choosing Northern Virginia vs Maryland. Keep in mind that NAVAIR Headquarters (My employer) is located in Maryland, not Virginia, yet NG still chose VA. I really don't want to list all of the regulations and restrictions that I think are not conducive to business in MD or the US. Google is there. If you can't find any, I will help.

Third point - polls taken after people voted showed that race was not an important factor in the choice for Barak Obama, in recent elections of modern times blacks vote overwhelmingly for democrats.

I would like to read some of these, if possible. I, for one, remember listening to his speech when he came to campus, and listening to an alarming trend among my peers. FOr the younger voters, the focus throughout the race was race (no pun intended). Again, I would love to look at some of these polls. However, my point was not solely race; in fact, it was the trend of voting Democratic because that's what you always vote for. I'm curious about these polls you reference, and wonder if "in recent elections of modern times blacks vote overwhelmingly for democrats" because they are democrats, not because the democratic candidate is the best candidate.

Bolded.

[adp]

It scares the hell out of me that the majority (I'm assuming majority) of voters go into the polls and cast their vote based on who is Republican and who is Democratic. This is akin to the tremendous amount of blacks who were voting for Obama because he is half-black. Both parties are so incredibly hypocritical it's not even funny. Both parties are the same. Vote for the person, not the skin color, gender, age, party, etc.

Do you honestly expect a black voter to vote for a man whose state would not accept MLK Day? Seriously?

It would have been very hard for McCain to get ANY black voters, no matter who the Dems ran against him.

You can see racism in it, but that's just your own prejudice. You realize that you are saying that you don't believe blacks can make a rational voting choice, don't you? I think black voters are the same as white, red or green voters. They vote for all sorts of reasons. Some such voters are rational. Some ain't. Some are racists. Some ain't.

But to say they only voted for Obama because he is black is simply racist.

[adp]

Bolded.

dude, McCain? McCain? McCain/Palin? LOL How can you BLAME people for getting excited about THE OTHER guy, when the GOP runs an incompetent has-been and a complete nincompoop. Nevermind that most of the folks who voted for Obama wouldn't agree on a single policy approach with McCain OR Palin, but you just focus on RACE.

Right

If people had chosen Hillary over McCain and been excited to vote for a woman, you'd have criticized that, too, despite the fact that those voters also HATED McCain/Palin.

take your friggin blinders off - your party put up lousy candidates, and the other party put up a candidate that got people excited. Case closed.

[adp]

if the Dems nominated Kerry against McCain, you'd have accused Kerry voters of being "ageists" for hating the old douche

[rmorse]

Do you honestly expect a black voter to vote for a man whose state would not accept MLK Day? Seriously?

It would have been very hard for McCain to get ANY black voters, no matter who the Dems ran against him.

You can see racism in it, but that's just your own prejudice. You realize that you are saying that you don't believe blacks can make a rational voting choice, don't you? I think black voters are the same as white, red or green voters. They vote for all sorts of reasons. Some such voters are rational. Some ain't. Some are racists. Some ain't.

But to say they only voted for Obama because he is black is simply racist.

Nice leap, and nice try to put words into my mouth. No where did I say that blacks can't make a rational voting choice. Please refrain from knee-jerk comments like that, and please refrain from trying to turn this conversation into a insult-fest.

I never said that "Blacks only voted for Obama because he is black."

[adp]

good thing the Dems didn't nominate the Jewish Senator from Ct, or we'd hear how all the Jews voted for him because of his religion

[eye roll]

[adp]

Nice leap, and nice try to put words into my mouth. No where did I say that blacks can't make a rational voting choice. Please refrain from knee-jerk comments like that, and please refrain from trying to turn this conversation into a insult-fest.

I never said that "Blacks only voted for Obama because he is black."

errr. this is YOUR post: "is akin to the tremendous amount of blacks who were voting for Obama because he is half-black."

if you can't take the heat, don't say stupid ****t

MY comment is "knee-jerk" yet you somehow believe YOU know all the reasons all the voters voted for Obama?

LOL

at least my comment isn't ALL jerk, like yours

[adp]

This is akin to the tremendous amount of blacks who were voting for Obama because he is half-black. Both parties are so incredibly hypocritical it's not even funny. Both parties are the same. Vote for the person, not the skin color, gender, age, party, etc.

QFT

[adp]

I love it when racists say, "I'm not racist"

[TheCastro]

Bolded.

First point - GOD WHY DO I HAVE TO SUFFER WITH THIS?? Oh, umm, response, ok, an asset = money, you are trying to say that investments don't have a dollar value, I can't help you, there's an investment 101 class at your local community college, you could attend. But since their investments are normally ahead of inflation, like the value of gold, the overall purchasing power is not dimished, their income/assests value has increased so they don't lose money/value/assests. Rich people don't go out buying boats and cars all of the time (so their assets aren't in those forms if that's what you're thinking.) Poor people rarely get raises, and the raises they do get are usually only 2-3% which normally is what inflation is at. So in effect they don't get raises. Then if you account for times with higher inflation, they get the same 2-3% raise, so they are falling behind. Then in moments like now where real world costs like gas and food are up 20+% they lose even more value. Rich people are the ones with money oil futures and speculation and are those gaining on or at a minimum staying with inflation. There are many graphs out there (just type in google "income gap graphs) to give you colorful pictures, some even show the inflation lines. If you read my earlier posts about the inflation index and cpi avoiding the inclusion of gas and food you would see the situation for the poor is much worse off than people are trying to pretend it is.


Second point - Like I said, I don't think there are enough restrictions and punishments are too low for violators so I don't need to google crap.

Third point - first articles that state the percent of blacks that are democrats, around 90% is the answer.
http://www.factcheck.org/2008/04/bla...ocratic-party/ -graphs of blacks voting
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/08/08/us...ted=all&src=pm -in the article it sates that traditionally democrats have depended on aprox. 90% of the black vote.
http://blogs.ajc.com/political-insid...f-gop-ballots/ -blacks make up about 58% of the democrats primary votes, 1% of GOP.

Now the gallop poll saying that it wasn't just because he was black (but the above articles prove this is un-needed.)
http://www.gallup.com/poll/107770/mo...tial-vote.aspx -broken down by white and black if race matters in election

[TheCastro]

Nice leap, and nice try to put words into my mouth. No where did I say that blacks can't make a rational voting choice. Please refrain from knee-jerk comments like that, and please refrain from trying to turn this conversation into a insult-fest.

I never said that "Blacks only voted for Obama because he is black."

You didn't you said males I believe was your original post, but you changed the wording later.

[TheCastro]

I love it when racists say, "I'm not racist"

lol, I love how we're on the same side in this thread but I think we were arguing in a different one.

[rmorse]

errr. this is YOUR post: "is akin to the tremendous amount of blacks who were voting for Obama because he is half-black."

if you can't take the heat, don't say stupid ****t

MY comment is "knee-jerk" yet you somehow believe YOU know all the reasons all the voters voted for Obama?

LOL

at least my comment isn't ALL jerk, like yours

Again, I'm not that worked up about this. Relax, and I would love to continue having a conversation. I find these debates fascinating, but I'm not going to continue in one where it turns into insults being thrown around instead of thinking about each others viewpoints. I never said all voters, I never said all blacks. These are words being put in my mouth. Can you tell me that there is not a single black person out there who voted for Obama because he is half-black?

I love it when racists say, "I'm not racist"

I love it when peopple find racism in everything.

You didn't you said males I believe was your original post, but you changed the wording later.

I don't believe I edited that post at all. I might have, but I honestly don't remember.

dude, McCain? McCain? McCain/Palin? LOL How can you BLAME people for getting excited about THE OTHER guy, when the GOP runs an incompetent has-been and a complete nincompoop. Nevermind that most of the folks who voted for Obama wouldn't agree on a single policy approach with McCain OR Palin, but you just focus on RACE.

Right

If people had chosen Hillary over McCain and been excited to vote for a woman, you'd have criticized that, too, despite the fact that those voters also HATED McCain/Palin.

take your friggin blinders off - your party put up lousy candidates, and the other party put up a candidate that got people excited. Case closed.

My party? What is my party, exactly? Who did I vote for?

[rmorse]

No where did I say that "All blacks voted for Obama because he was black" and "Blacks only vote on race" and "Blacks can't make intelligent decisions" or whatever you want to try and accuse me of saying.


Since my original message got skewed, I will try again.

I don't like it when ANYONE votes on someone based on RACE, GENDER, PARTY AFFILIATION, ETC. I have the same disgust/fear for the white people who were voting for McCain solely because he is white.

[TheCastro]

.



I don't believe I edited that post at all. I might have, but I honestly don't remember.

Not that you modified your post, but in an earlier post when you first said it I think you said young males. In the post adp quoted you said all blacks or whatever.

[TheCastro]

Mostly McCain got old people votes. Obama secured more young votes.

[rmorse]

Not that you modified your post, but in an earlier post when you first said it I think you said young males. In the post adp quoted you said all blacks or whatever.

Ah. Don't know, don't care (no offense). I don't need to hide what I wrote. People will find racism anywhere they look.

Mostly McCain got old people votes. Obama secured more young votes.

Tell me, those who are calling me "racist" for stating that I don't like that people voted for someone based solely (or majorly) on race....

Can you honestly say that the last presidential election was racially fueled? Can you honestly say that no one voted for someone based on their skin color alone?



My point is, I don't believe that that is a smart way to vote. In fact, it worries me that people care more about sh!t like that than the big picture.

[adp]

I don't like it when ANYONE votes on someone based on RACE, GENDER, PARTY AFFILIATION, ETC. I have the same disgust/fear for the white people who were voting for McCain solely because he is white.

You should be afraid of those people, because those people are freakin NUTS

McCain was and in INCOMPETENT

I'm sorry - I met the man while he was running (so over three years ago, I guess). He was not fit for public office. He would have been a disaster as President, and the job likely would have killed him, unfortunately. Thankfully, he can do little harm as a Senator, compared to his role as POTUS. I am happy for him and his family that he was not elected.

[rmorse]

You should be afraid of those people, because those people are freakin NUTS

McCain was and in INCOMPETENT

I'm sorry - I met the man while he was running (so over three years ago, I guess). He was not fit for public office. He would have been a disaster as President, and the job likely would have killed him, unfortunately. Thankfully, he can do little harm as a Senator, compared to his role as POTUS. I am happy for him and his family that he was not elected.

I agree, and that was my original point. I'm still not sure why you were so quick to call me racist though.....

[adp]

No where did I say that "All blacks voted for Obama because he was black" and "Blacks only vote on race" and "Blacks can't make intelligent decisions" or whatever you want to try and accuse me of saying.


Since my original message got skewed, I will try again.

I don't like it when ANYONE votes on someone based on RACE, GENDER, PARTY AFFILIATION, ETC. I have the same disgust/fear for the white people who were voting for McCain solely because he is white.

again, this is YOUR post: "This is akin to the tremendous amount of blacks who were voting for Obama because he is half-black."

The "tremendous amount" - which means, at least, "a lot of blacks"

and you can't even prove that ONE black person voted for Obama "because he is half-black"

I assume many black voters chose Obama because he is black. Maybe even 100,000. Of course, since those voters never would have chosen McCain EVEN IF McCain were BLACK, is pretty telling, don't ya think?

Obama's race probably got those people to the polls, but they were never gonna vote for McCain, given McCain's terrible policy approaches across the board.

[adp]

I am willing to move on from this nonsense about Obama and black voters. It's meaningless.

[adp]

People will find racism anywhere they look.

you mean like YOU did when you talked about black voters?

[rmorse]

First point - GOD WHY DO I HAVE TO SUFFER WITH THIS?? Oh, umm, response, ok, an asset = money, you are trying to say that investments don't have a dollar value, I can't help you, there's an investment 101 class at your local community college, you could attend. Actually, I'm not trying to say that. I'm trying to say rich people don't have money (Money = Money is any object or record that is generally accepted as payment for goods and services and repayment of debts in a given country or socio-economic context." Quoted from wiki). Money is an asset; all assets are not money.

But since their investments are normally ahead of inflation, like the value of gold, the overall purchasing power is not dimished, their income/assests value has increased so they don't lose money/value/assests. False. They don't lose AS MUCH money/value/assets Rich people don't go out buying boats and cars all of the time (so their assets aren't in those forms if that's what you're thinking.) Poor people rarely get raises, and the raises they do get are usually only 2-3% which normally is what inflation is at. So in effect they don't get raises. Then if you account for times with higher inflation, they get the same 2-3% raise, so they are falling behind. Then in moments like now where real world costs like gas and food are up 20+% they lose even more value. Rich people are the ones with money oil futures and speculation and are those gaining on or at a minimum staying with inflation. There are many graphs out there (just type in google "income gap graphs) to give you colorful pictures, some even show the inflation lines. If you read my earlier posts about the inflation index and cpi avoiding the inclusion of gas and food you would see the situation for the poor is much worse off than people are trying to pretend it is.

That suggests to me that poor people should be investing in investments that outpace inflation then, shouldn't they?




Second point - Like I said, I don't think there are enough restrictions and punishments are too low for violators so I don't need to google crap.

So, your argument is "I think all restrictions and punishments are good, and I don't need to google anything." I'm not sure how to address this. It seems you don't wish to have a discussion about it, which is fine.

Third point - first articles that state the percent of blacks that are democrats, around 90% is the answer.
http://www.factcheck.org/2008/04/bla...ocratic-party/ -graphs of blacks voting
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/08/08/us...ted=all&src=pm -in the article it sates that traditionally democrats have depended on aprox. 90% of the black vote.
http://blogs.ajc.com/political-insid...f-gop-ballots/ -blacks make up about 58% of the democrats primary votes, 1% of GOP.

Now the gallop poll saying that it wasn't just because he was black (but the above articles prove this is un-needed.)
http://www.gallup.com/poll/107770/mo...tial-vote.aspx -broken down by white and black if race matters in election

I will read those articles later. Hey, are you going to the next NE meet? We can talk more about this kinda stuff, I hate doing this online lol.

[rmorse]

again, this is YOUR post: "This is akin to the tremendous amount of blacks who were voting for Obama because he is half-black."

The "tremendous amount" - which means, at least, "a lot of blacks"

and you can't even prove that ONE black person voted for Obama "because he is half-black"

I assume many black voters chose Obama because he is black. Maybe even 100,000. Of course, since those voters never would have chosen McCain EVEN IF McCain were BLACK, is pretty telling, don't ya think?

Obama's race probably got those people to the polls, but they were never gonna vote for McCain, given McCain's terrible policy approaches across the board.

LOL, you just said the same thing I said. Should I yell at you for being racist?

EDIT: Here's one that did.

http://www.therightscoop.com/voting-...ke-of-my-life/

Should I find two?

How again am I racist for having that scare me? How again am I racist for thinking that people like that are complete idiots?

[rmorse]

I am willing to move on from this nonsense about Obama and black voters. It's meaningless.

Sure.

[rmorse]

My party? What is my party, exactly? Who did I vote for?

ADP, what is my party? Who did I vote for?

[TheCastro]

Ah. Don't know, don't care (no offense). I don't need to hide what I wrote. People will find racism anywhere they look.



Tell me, those who are calling me "racist" for stating that I don't like that people voted for someone based solely (or majorly) on race....

Can you honestly say that the last presidential election was racially fueled? Can you honestly say that no one voted for someone based on their skin color alone?



My point is, I don't believe that that is a smart way to vote. In fact, it worries me that people care more about sh!t like that than the big picture.

You still haven't read my articles, and going from all to many to some is a copout.

[rmorse]

You still haven't read my articles, and going from all to many to some is a copout.

I haven't read the articles, I will though.

I WENT FROM MANY TO MANY/SOME. I NEVER SAID ALL, THAT'S ADP TRYING TO FIND RACISM EVERYWHERE INSTEAD OF LISTENING TO THE ARGUMENT.

[TheCastro]

I will read those articles later. Hey, are you going to the next NE meet? We can talk more about this kinda stuff, I hate doing this online lol.

If you have a net gain it's a gain, so you can't say didn't lose as much, they didn't lose at all. It's built in that money will lose it's value as time progressive, hence a candy bar used to be a nickle, but the Kennedys are still rich and so are the rockefellers, in fact their adjusted for inflation values are higher, so zero loss for them.



Since most investments that outpace inflations are now expensive like gold, it's impossible for them to buy it. Even if it was cheap they couldn't. We're talking about people that have section 8 housing, work two-three jobs, the government pays their cell phone bill, they receive food stamps, etc. Maybe not all at the same time. These aren't people going out buying XBOXs when they should be investing in a 401K, these are people that can barely make it month to month. Saying they need to go out and invest is like saying you need a better paying job, go get one, oh you don't have a college degree and your high school failed at educating you because the current standards are terrible in poor communities and you couldn't even pass the reading and math requirements at a community college, oh well.


That's exactly my argument, there may be regulations that seem bogus (usually because another industry lobbied harder and won) but overall I think more regulations are necessary. In some thread, it could have been this one, fracking was brought up, and currently there is hardly any oversight in this industry.


Yea, look at them when you get a chance, I didn't read them the whole way through, just getting the informtation to counter what you said.




--If I can, the only one coming up is the drive through the pocunos or however it's spelled. We haven't had a lot of luck on getting another meet together. I'd rather discuss in person too, because then it's quicker except for the, let me try and google that on my iphone parts. I always wish there werer like clubs and stuff I could find or join that sat around discussing this stuff.

[TheCastro]

I haven't read the articles, I will though.

I WENT FROM MANY TO MANY/SOME. I NEVER SAID ALL, THAT'S ADP TRYING TO FIND RACISM EVERYWHERE INSTEAD OF LISTENING TO THE ARGUMENT.

I saw that you said you'd read them after I posted this, sorry.

Well it's hard to tell what's going on now. I wonder how many people are just popping into read this but not commenting.

[rmorse]

I haven't read the articles, I will though.

I WENT FROM MANY TO MANY/SOME. I NEVER SAID ALL, THAT'S ADP TRYING TO FIND RACISM EVERYWHERE INSTEAD OF LISTENING TO THE ARGUMENT.

Actually, this isn't even accurate, I never even said most. I feel like some did.y

[StealthyS60R]

Well, I see the reich-wing talking point and know-nothing brigade are still here trying to deride one of the biggest movements this country has ever seen.

The revolution will not be televised though. Just in case you missed it the storm troopers in oakland decided to use explosives and bullets, though the rubber kind, to get those pesky protesters to go home and shut up. Its hard to believe this is the same america I grew up in.

Since the corporate media is mostly ignoring it, here is what many of you might have missed.

First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they FIGHT you, then you win.

In this fight an iraq war veteran now lies in a coma, from either a rubber bullet or flash bang grenade to the head.

http://www.ktvu.com/video/29587140/index.html

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/we...playershare_fb

[StealthyS60R]

Oh yes, I almost forgot to include the vid of the police throwing a grenade into the group of people that go over to rescue the injured veteran.

Oakland Police Critically Injure Iraq War Vet During Occupy March


It appears the authorities are trying to give us a 'kent state' kind of moment.