Jerky Shifting in xc60 (2011) 60K miles - normal?
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    1. #1
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      Jerky Shifting in xc60 (2011) 60K miles - normal?

      Hi. New here. We bought a Cert Pre Owned 2011 Xc60 T6. The transmission seems to be very jerky when shifting. It also seems to go through a hard downshift when coasting down to about 25MPH.

      We just replaced a 2000 Saab 95 4cyl Turbo that you never felt shift. But this car, you can feel so many of the shifts. It just seems jerky to me.

      Took it in to the dealers (I've had it a month, it has 60K miles on it). They did the software update you read about here, but I find it seems even worse.

      Curious about a few things.

      1. Is this just the nature of this engine? First Volvo we've owned.
      2. Any change it actually will "learn" our driving style and smooth out?
      3. Do you think we're doing damage by just driving it for a while?

      The mechanic said he'd fixed it and didn't detect the issue but I feel it worse than ever.

      Can anyone offer any advice or opinions?

      I've read more than one review that calls the auto transmission "Jerky" so perhaps that is just the nature of this car.

      Any input would be appreciated. I'm ready to drive back to the dealer and hop in a new xc60 just to compare.

      Thank you!

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    3. #2
      I would pay to have the transmission fluid changed at the dealer. How recently did you notice the behavior ?

    4. #3
      Senior Member Warpedcow's Avatar
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      Test drive another XC60 or really any AWD T6 Volvo as it's the same drivetrain.

      My guess is it's normal but just very different than your old Saab.

      The 6 speed auto transmission on the Volvos will lock the torque converter very aggressively in 2nd through 6th gears and that is probably the cause as I'm sure a 2000 Saab would not do that.
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    6. #4
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      Hi. Thanks, I bought it as a CPO from the dealer so the tranz fluid has been changed. Still seems overly jerky. Warpedcow, can you go into some detail on what you mean that this car will "lock the torque converter very aggressively"?

      Thanks again!
      David

    7. #5
      Senior Member Warpedcow's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by dcsw View Post
      Hi. Thanks, I bought it as a CPO from the dealer so the tranz fluid has been changed. Still seems overly jerky. Warpedcow, can you go into some detail on what you mean that this car will "lock the torque converter very aggressively"?

      Thanks again!
      David
      Dealers normally would not change the transmission fluid because there is no service interval for it (unless you're doing lots of towing).

      What I mean is that when you're driving around in any gear besides 1st, the odds of the torque converter being completely locked are very high, like 99.9%. There are very few acceleration scenarios where it will stay unlocked for more than that brief instant during a shift.
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    8. #6
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      I had exactly the same issue on my 2013 XC60. When i took it in for the first scheduled service (Sept 2013) I was told that TCM software was updated. it is still jerky, but not nearly as bad. When I mentioned that it wasn't completely fixed at the 2nd service (Sept 2014), I was told that TCM has the latest version of software available.

      Perhaps you can check with your dealer if updates are available for your car. Even if the car was CPO, perhaps they "forgot" to update software?
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    9. #7
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      I had the same problem with my '12. After update it also felt worse for about a month, but after driving a bit more aggressive (only a week or so) and switching to premium, the trans. no longer "hunts" for gears and very rarely "bangs" when coming to a stop. I know many people don't think the gas makes a difference, as did I, but now I can tell immediately if regular is in the tank, all the hunting and hesitation return and power is down.
      P.s. this was after 2nd "update" of software.... I figured if I'm training the trans it may need guidance i.e. aggressive throttle.

      Good luck
      Good luck, and

    10. #8
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      All of our Volvo's have had this type of shifting behavior. It’s the one thing that I don't like about Volvos. Not sure if other cars behave the same way, I suspect they might. It is particularly bad when you are coasting to a red light, the light changes and you accelerate with a fairly aggressive thunk as the transmission engages. No amount of software upgrades/updates have ever fixed this problem when we pointed it out to the dealer. We have learned to live with it.
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    11. #9
      Senior Member Warpedcow's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by comp1 View Post
      It is particularly bad when you are coasting to a red light, the light changes and you accelerate with a fairly aggressive thunk as the transmission engages. No amount of software upgrades/updates have ever fixed this problem when we pointed it out to the dealer. We have learned to live with it.
      I'm pretty sure this is "normal" in the situation where right as the car decides to make that final shift from 2nd to 1st gear as you slow, you decide to hammer the gas, so you get that jerk in the drivetrain when you take off. If this happens often you are just really unlucky with how you hit traffic lights... you could try to either keep coasting a bit faster, or just come to a complete stop, or just be really gentle going back on the throttle at that certain speed (probably 5MPH or so?)
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    12. #10
      yeah, i've just attributed it to Volvo's tune with the turbo. Its like the engineers really figure out a wonderful 45-75MPH program, and then sacrificed time for smoothness at stop lol. The weirdest part, is that it's not even aggressive. It's not like if you mash the accelerator you're experiencing an aggressive shift pattern from a dig. It's just really rough (IMO)
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    13. #11
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      Volvo uses Aisin transmissions, formerly Aisin-Warner. Toyota bought 52% of Aisin from Borg-Warner, so sometimes these transmissions are called Toyota transmissions. While not bullet-proof, these are good transmissions.

      My 1994 850 starting doing occasional hard shifts during hard accelerations after the odometer passed 100,000 miles. We drove it to 238,000 miles, and the transmission never failed.

      My daughter's 2002 V70 started doing some hard shifts after about 120,000 miles, especially during kick downs, but the car lasted to 170,000 miles without a failure.

      Your shift adaptives may need time to reset after your transmission work.
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    14. #12
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      Quote Originally Posted by comp1 View Post
      All of our Volvo's have had this type of shifting behavior. It’s the one thing that I don't like about Volvos. Not sure if other cars behave the same way, I suspect they might. It is particularly bad when you are coasting to a red light, the light changes and you accelerate with a fairly aggressive thunk as the transmission engages. No amount of software upgrades/updates have ever fixed this problem when we pointed it out to the dealer. We have learned to live with it.
      Unhappy, as a new owner of a used 2013 XC60, to hear this problem is not quite fixable. I can't get over the little jerk as coasting to a stop. I drive in silence a lot and even hear the dash plastic creak as it happens. Now, I simply wait for it to happen and irritate me instead of learning to ignore it.

    15. #13
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      I'm having similar issues with my 18K mile 2014 XC60. It's done it since new and I've had it to the dealer 8 times already. The primary issue I'm having is that it has delayed engagement and slam shifts into gear after coming to a complete stop or when accelerating after coasting in stop and go traffic. The engagement is so hard that you can hear a ping in the back when the torque hits the haldex. After 3 pings, I'm now very careful to accelerate at very low throttle input until I feel the transaxle engage 1st, after that I can take off much more smoothly. I've been driving the car this way for about the last 12k miles to prevent other damage to the drivetrain that will likely make it beyond Volvo's coverage before failing (IE the Haldex, Angle Gear, U Joins, etc). None of the 5 courtesy cars I've had exhibited this behaviour so I really believe that there is an issue with the transmission itself since 2 adaptations, new TCM software, re-upload of the CEM software, and most recently, replacement of the CEM haven't had any effect on the low speed hard/delayed engagement issues. I have another appointment with the dealer in a couple weeks and I plan to call Volvo in the interim to go over everything thats been done and see what they plan to do. I'm really starting to think that I got a lemon.
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    16. #14

      No luck from Volvo Canada

      Quote Originally Posted by 14XC606A View Post
      I have another appointment with the dealer in a couple weeks and I plan to call Volvo in the interim to go over everything thats been done and see what they plan to do. I'm really starting to think that I got a lemon.
      We have a 2013 XC60 and have experienced the same issues with the shifting, but only when changing from approaching a stop to acceleration, the car clunks into gear. The dealer has updated the software three times and we even insisted that a senior technician from head office come and drive the vehicle. The result was, yes he could detect the clunking, but this is a "trait" of the T6 and Volvo does not have a fix.

      When we raised this in an email to the president of Volvo Canada, we were contacted by a customer service manager and were told that there is nothing technically wrong with the vehicle and that our concerns have been sent to Sweden, but as there is no technical fault, it is not a priority so she had no idea whether anything would actually be done about it. Not exactly the kind of response one expects from a luxury auto maker. We did get a letter stating that they would fix the transmission under warranty even after the 4 year warranty period has ended, so I would try to get some kind of guarantee that they will continue to fix the issue at their cost, not yours.

    17. #15
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      My S80 also has the same weird jerky shifts mentioned here and elsewhere. Seems to be the norm so never brought it up with the dealer (CPO car). Makes the transmission seem fragile and the behavior doesn't fit the the luxury car image. Was always hesitant to get a European car because of reliability concerns. How ironic the the Japanese made transmission is my main concern. I'm just slowly getting used to it and living with it.

      It's used in so many different cars though that hopefully the weird shifts don't mean future failure.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AWTF-80_SC

    18. #16
      Those of you with the "acceleration from a near stop" issue - what is your driving environment like? I'm curious to see if it's city driving, traffic, etc.

      I have not experienced this on our 2014 T6 (two months of ownership). The transmission doesn't seem to downshift to 1st gear until you're pretty much stopped. It will normally stay in 2nd even when a generous amount of throttle is applied. We drive in NYC metro area, but not in the worst traffic out there, so while there is stop and go, it's usually coasting to a stop sign/light rather than sitting in bumper to bumper traffic.


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    19. #17
      Junior Member XC68's Avatar
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      My 2013 T6 has the same exact shifting issue, the dealer always comes back with the same spiel, that a "software update" should take care of it! It looks like there is no fix, be cautious with your foot from going from 1st to 2nd or vice versa, sounds dumb, that's the best I can come up with.
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    20. #18
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      I have noticed a hard shift when going from a near stop (coasting) to ~35mph, especially uphill. It is mildly annoying, but not worrying. I don't know if MY2016 T6 has the same issue and I am less sensitive to it, or if P* tune or newer MY's refined the performance. I changed my driving to be slower with the accelerator at takeoff and it doesn't happen as much. I can't prove it, but I feel like I can take off aggressively from coasting in Sport mode without causing a hard shift.

      Would the a 2013 S60 T6 AWD have the same transmission? I had a loaner last week and it felt the same as my car. Maybe this particular engine/transmission combo is just not smooth compared to other vehicles with 5- or 6-speeds.
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    21. #19
      The 2016 T6 has na 8 speed transmission I think.


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    22. #20
      Junior Member JasonRK's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Voytech View Post
      The 2016 T6 has na 8 speed transmission I think.
      MY2016 has both. 4-cylinder T6 Drive-e has an 8 speed, but 6-cylinder T6 still has the 6 speed.
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    23. #21
      I have a 15 XC60 T6 and a 2012 S60 T6 and they both will do this from time to time. It is a bitch when it does it but luckily i have only seen it a handful of times. My 2010 XC60 T6 even did it a few times. There must be some speed and throttle position that causes it.

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    24. #22
      Quote Originally Posted by JasonRK View Post
      MY2016 has both. 4-cylinder T6 Drive-e has an 8 speed, but 6-cylinder T6 still has the 6 speed.
      Gotcha


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    25. #23

      Same transmission?

      Quote Originally Posted by stupid_nut View Post
      My S80 also has the same weird jerky shifts mentioned here and elsewhere. Seems to be the norm so never brought it up with the dealer (CPO car). Makes the transmission seem fragile and the behavior doesn't fit the the luxury car image. Was always hesitant to get a European car because of reliability concerns. How ironic the the Japanese made transmission is my main concern. I'm just slowly getting used to it and living with it.

      It's used in so many different cars though that hopefully the weird shifts don't mean future failure.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AWTF-80_SC

      My new (used) 2012 S80 T6 also has this experience. Do they use the same transmission? Also a first-time Volvo owner, and on top of that I haven't driven a traditional automatic in upwards of three years (had a manual and a CVT since that time). It was distressing at first but it seems that this is certainly not odd behavior.

    26. #24
      Quote Originally Posted by dcsw View Post
      Hi. Thanks, I bought it as a CPO from the dealer so the tranz fluid has been changed. Still seems overly jerky. Warpedcow, can you go into some detail on what you mean that this car will "lock the torque converter very aggressively"?

      Thanks again!
      David
      You don't KNOW the fluid was ever actually changed if it was done before you purchased it. You can get under it and check for signs the bolts involved have been turned. But dealers, even luxury brands, pull all sorts of tricks with CPO standards sometimes.
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    27. #25
      Quote Originally Posted by gregclover View Post
      Unhappy, as a new owner of a used 2013 XC60, to hear this problem is not quite fixable. I can't get over the little jerk as coasting to a stop. I drive in silence a lot and even hear the dash plastic creak as it happens. Now, I simply wait for it to happen and irritate me instead of learning to ignore it.
      First world problem.
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    28. #26
      Quote Originally Posted by Chaphall View Post
      We have a 2013 XC60 and have experienced the same issues with the shifting, but only when changing from approaching a stop to acceleration, the car clunks into gear. The dealer has updated the software three times and we even insisted that a senior technician from head office come and drive the vehicle. The result was, yes he could detect the clunking, but this is a "trait" of the T6 and Volvo does not have a fix.

      When we raised this in an email to the president of Volvo Canada, we were contacted by a customer service manager and were told that there is nothing technically wrong with the vehicle and that our concerns have been sent to Sweden, but as there is no technical fault, it is not a priority so she had no idea whether anything would actually be done about it. Not exactly the kind of response one expects from a luxury auto maker. We did get a letter stating that they would fix the transmission under warranty even after the 4 year warranty period has ended, so I would try to get some kind of guarantee that they will continue to fix the issue at their cost, not yours.

      Dear "Chaphall" Please contact us. We just contacted Volvo Canada HQ for the same reason and would like to add the fact that we are not alone. If they have a list of several owners with the issue they may actually do something about it.
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    29. #27
      Our dealer wiped the learned shifting and it was night and day. They had done an update or two, but it got to the point where I didn't want an update, because it just seemed to get worse or just different.

      The thing is, we've owned the car since new, so relearning us doesn't seem to make sense. The car shifts a lot snappier and doesn't do the weird wrong gear dance. It feels like they dumped sport mode into it.
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    30. #28
      dbphillips: The fluid wears over time, which the gearbox takes into account using a bunch of parameters and stuff. I'm guessing re-doing the adaption sort of gave it a clean slate, letting it re-learn from the fluids' actual state rather than the expected state (which is what I believe is how it'll take wear into account).

      Also, driver adaption is different from the shifting adaption. The latter is how the gearbox applies the oil pressure, how it shifts etc. The former is how it adapts to the driver, e.g early upshifts, smooth ones for a comfortable ride, or a bit snappier and later shifts for a bit more performance.
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    31. #29
      Here is a reply from Volvo Canada Customer Service. The last line is great "functioning as intended by Volvo".

      The following is the information that has been provided by our product support division in relation to the XC60 transmission shifting feedback and inquiry you reported.

      The 6 speed in the XC60 has been around since 2006, and has demonstrated exceptional reliability. The original software in the transmission was programmed to keep the transmission in gear from coast down to assist with a mild engine brake feature. Once the car reached a speed of approximately 30 km/h, the transmission disengaged and prepared its self for acceleration again. The consequence of this was that in certain light braking application, the action of the transmission was felt as a mild jerk during coast down. This was magnified in cars with worn engine mounts.

      To address this, the software was modified in 2012 to hold the gear and shift to 2nd unless the car came to a complete stop. When you accelerate from an “almost” stopped speed, the car starts up in 2nd gear to provide a smoother coast down experience.
      Unless of course there is a demand from the driver for more power. If there is a demand for additional power, the shifts to 1st gear, which can be felt as a bump at low speed take-off. This is magnified on inclines as:


      The throttle application is greater
      Throttle command is temporarily reduced at the throttle plate to facilitate a smooth shift


      This feeling is often interpreted as the transmission slipping or engaging poorly, but is instead how the transmission is designed to operate without consequence to long term durability. The ‘slip’ feeling is a combination of throttle reduction and transmission delay to avoid a harsh jolt to the driveline. The failure rate on this series of transmission is extremely low. This can be mitigated with a smooth dip into the throttle during rolling accelerations which don't make the car think that sudden power is required.

      Software is available to return to the original design, but there are trade-offs there too. Polestar software does not change the transmission shift logic. The software in the 3.2 is different to match the different power and torque curves in the 3.2 vs the T6. This gear hold logic is undesirable in the 3,2, as the engine needs to rev up to make power, vs. a T6 which can have power at low rpm’s due to electronic turbo boost control. Different drivelines cannot really be compared.

      This is not of course to ignore that transmission fluid on all cars degrade over time losing its properties and hard shifting is often the first consequence. Fluid colour/ inspection should also be inspected to determine if transmission performance can be improved.

      I hope this has provided more insight on the transmission shifting properties of the XC60 and that it is consistent with your observations. If you have any further questions regarding this, please contact Ivan at Newmarket Volvo as this is the extent of the technical information that can be provided through Customer Relations. Our retailers are the point of contact for inquiries of this nature as they have factory trained technicians as well as direct access to Volvo Technical Support.

      That being said, please be assured that we have documented your feedback on this topic and we would ask that in the event that further transmission concerns occur, please notify Newmarket Volvo and we will review the case for assistance, but at this time it has been determined that the transmission in your 2011 XC60 is functioning as intended by Volvo.
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    32. #30
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      Quote Originally Posted by Stridsvagn View Post
      Here is a reply from Volvo Canada Customer Service. The last line is great "functioning as intended by Volvo".

      The following is the information that has been provided by our product support division in relation to the XC60 transmission shifting feedback and inquiry you reported.

      The 6 speed in the XC60 has been around since 2006, and has demonstrated exceptional reliability. The original software in the transmission was programmed to keep the transmission in gear from coast down to assist with a mild engine brake feature. Once the car reached a speed of approximately 30 km/h, the transmission disengaged and prepared its self for acceleration again. The consequence of this was that in certain light braking application, the action of the transmission was felt as a mild jerk during coast down. This was magnified in cars with worn engine mounts.

      To address this, the software was modified in 2012 to hold the gear and shift to 2nd unless the car came to a complete stop. When you accelerate from an “almost” stopped speed, the car starts up in 2nd gear to provide a smoother coast down experience.
      Unless of course there is a demand from the driver for more power. If there is a demand for additional power, the shifts to 1st gear, which can be felt as a bump at low speed take-off. This is magnified on inclines as:


      The throttle application is greater
      Throttle command is temporarily reduced at the throttle plate to facilitate a smooth shift


      This feeling is often interpreted as the transmission slipping or engaging poorly, but is instead how the transmission is designed to operate without consequence to long term durability. The ‘slip’ feeling is a combination of throttle reduction and transmission delay to avoid a harsh jolt to the driveline. The failure rate on this series of transmission is extremely low. This can be mitigated with a smooth dip into the throttle during rolling accelerations which don't make the car think that sudden power is required.

      Software is available to return to the original design, but there are trade-offs there too. Polestar software does not change the transmission shift logic. The software in the 3.2 is different to match the different power and torque curves in the 3.2 vs the T6. This gear hold logic is undesirable in the 3,2, as the engine needs to rev up to make power, vs. a T6 which can have power at low rpm’s due to electronic turbo boost control. Different drivelines cannot really be compared.

      This is not of course to ignore that transmission fluid on all cars degrade over time losing its properties and hard shifting is often the first consequence. Fluid colour/ inspection should also be inspected to determine if transmission performance can be improved.

      I hope this has provided more insight on the transmission shifting properties of the XC60 and that it is consistent with your observations. If you have any further questions regarding this, please contact Ivan at Newmarket Volvo as this is the extent of the technical information that can be provided through Customer Relations. Our retailers are the point of contact for inquiries of this nature as they have factory trained technicians as well as direct access to Volvo Technical Support.

      That being said, please be assured that we have documented your feedback on this topic and we would ask that in the event that further transmission concerns occur, please notify Newmarket Volvo and we will review the case for assistance, but at this time it has been determined that the transmission in your 2011 XC60 is functioning as intended by Volvo.
      What does the phrase "software is available to return to the original design." Does that mena we have the option to revert to the old software with the downshift on slowdown? I would take that in a heartbeat over what we have now!
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    33. #31
      Quote Originally Posted by cab View Post
      What does the phrase "software is available to return to the original design." Does that mena we have the option to revert to the old software with the downshift on slowdown? I would take that in a heartbeat over what we have now!
      Yes, I believe they'll do it.

      Rough 2-1 Downshift TJ31210- 2016-03-11

      I haven't yet asked my dealer to perform this TJ, but I intend to do so during my next service.
      2013 XC60 T6 AWD

    34. #32
      I have a 2013 XC60 T6 as well and have experienced the same issue. At first I changed the software to correct the harsh shifting which was changed to the latest updated software. Once changed I was getting the same harsh 2 to 1 downshift at a rolling coast and take off. The only fix was to have the original software loaded back into the car.
      Jason VanGorden
      FCP Euro Volvo Product Manager
      Quality & Service, Guaranteed for Life
      FCPEuro.com

    35. #33
      Junior Member
      Join Date
      Feb 2012
      Location
      Texas
      Posts
      732
      Thanks, that tsb was issued 2 weeks after our warranty expired. I wonder if I can get a little goodwill on it.
      2012 XC60 R-Design - Passion Red / Off-black/Cream Accents, Platinum, Polestar, & Climate
      2013 Tesla Model S P85+ - Multicoat Red / Black
      1997 M3 - Alpine White/Black

    36. #34
      Junior Member
      Join Date
      Feb 2012
      Location
      Texas
      Posts
      732

      Tj31210

      Here's is the TJ:


      Technical Journal 31210


      CSC Customer Symptom Codes
      Code Description
      ND Automatic transmission/Shifts rough or jerky/When downshifting

      Operation Number
      VST Operation Number Description

      43713-2 Automatic gearbox test drive/adaptation

      DTC Diagnostic Trouble Codes

      Text
      DESCRIPTION:

      Note!
      If using a printed copy of this Technical Journal, first check for the latest online version.
      This Software (SW) only applies to vehicles in the list above and with Transmission Control Module
      (TCM) hardware part number (HWPN) 31312609.

      If the vehicle has TCM HWPN 30751946 or 31342781, then the TCM would have to be replaced with
      HWPN 31312609 in order to accept the SW.

      The downshift threshold for 2-1 gearshift has been set to 1 MPH compared to 4 MPH in the previous
      version. This change was implemented as part of several shift performance upgrades to solve rough
      shifts during the 5-4 downshift, N-D garage shift and Neutral Control.

      Since the speed threshold was lowered in the latest software version, customers may experience a
      different behaviour when coming to a rolling stop, but never coming to a complete stop, followed by a
      quick acceleration.

      SERVICE:
      If customer complains about a rough 2-1 downshift during a rolling stop, even though customer has
      latest TCM software, please download TCM software according to SP numbers below.
      Be aware that downloading this software will remove ALL fixes related to C1 issues, like rough 5-4
      downshifts, N-D garage shift and Neutral Control.
      SP 31456524 should be used for vehicle type
      134
      155
      156
      SP 31456542 should be used for vehicle type
      124
      136
      2012 XC60 R-Design - Passion Red / Off-black/Cream Accents, Platinum, Polestar, & Climate
      2013 Tesla Model S P85+ - Multicoat Red / Black
      1997 M3 - Alpine White/Black

    37. #35

      Smile Hard downshift 4 to 3 - hopefully resolved

      My new 2016 XC60 went thru a similar issue with hard downshifting between 4 to 3. Brought it into the dealer who worked on it for about 10 days. The diagnosed problem was a faulty valve body. Took a lot of research to find out what that was and its interrelationship to the transmission. By the way, the 2016 XC60 has switched to an eight speed automatic with sport. I believe it is an AISIN product, but have yet to find the exact match (might be AWF8F35 or 45). Back to the hard downshift...After replacing the valve body, the car runs smoother than silk. The dealer said it was still in "adapt" mode, but research indicates otherwise. This is my 5th Volvo (1990-740; 1991-760T; 2000-S80T; and 2001 S80 2.9), and certainly the most serious problem encountered. The shifting is much smoother and I have even noticed an increase in gas mileage after receiving the TCM update and new valve body. I'll post more when I can get to the paperwork.

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