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24 years since on the road - lots of issues

4K views 45 replies 6 participants last post by  tmtalpey 
#1 ·
1973 - 1800 ES

When first brought back to life, the electronics, bit by bit, kicked in. Corroded terminals were cleaned where they were found, but it was still a slow progression that got us to a partial fire off. Rebuilt injectors were confirmed to be operating (thanks Phil), and tonight I confirmed gas pressure at 35 psi on the end of the cold start injector hose.

However, when I plugged the CSI back in, and cranked it with the ignition on, no fuel. Is there any way to do some maintenance on the valve? The first glance at replacement costs scared me.

Right now, I can keep it running by keeping the starter engaged, but it dies as soon as I release the starter. Ignition issue I'm thinking. I noticed that the car had had new tune-up parts, except the condenser, and the points were misaligned, even though new. So I got new parts coming for the weekend.

Anything else I should check?

Still having fun!

John
 
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#2 ·
If the points were misaligned, I'd suspect the ignition timing too. Have you static-timed it, to get it in the right ballpark?

Don't worry about the CSI not spraying. You can deal with that later.
 
#3 · (Edited)
Are you testing the operation of the injector by applying 12 volts to it? If not, do that first and see if it sprays. That will tell you whether the injector is AWOL or the controls are AWOL. If the injector sprays with the direct application of 12 v, then there is a control problem. In that case the first place I would look is the cold start relay (my 1971 had one, 1973 may or may not). Then start looking at the wiring. If the cold start injector is AWOL, I think you are out of luck. Check for continuity across the two terminals of the injector. If it is an open circuit the injector is junk. If it is not an open circuit, then you could try soaking the injector in carb / throttle body cleaner (toluene also works well) to see if that unclogs it.

Do you have a service manual for your year or the specific D-jet service manual? If not, you need to get one. Trying to trouble shoot the D jet without the service manual is near hopeless.

I think fuel pressure at 35 psi is too high. The early D jet operated at 28 psi and I think the later D jet (post 1971 ??) operated at 30 psi. Unless they changed something again in 1973, running at 35 psi instead of 30 psi will cause the engine to run rich. It is possible that the engine won't sustain operation because it is flooded. Check the condition of the spark plugs to see if they are wet. You should also be able to smell a severe flooding condition.

When you are cranking the engine, have you confirmed that all 4 injectors are spraying fuel? If not, that would be a good first test. If all 4 injectors are firing, that means the speed signal for the D jet from the set of trigger points in the base of the distributor are working (and a significant part of the control electronics are working).

The setting of the throttle and the throttle position switch is very important. Do not try to set idle speed by using the throttle stop screw. Follow the procedure in the service manual.

As tmtalpey says, get the static ignition timing set correctly. 10 deg BTDC is a good starting place.

The MAP sensor is hard to test completely. Measure the resistance across the 4 terminals and check the measurements with respect to the service manual values. If the values match, that is good; but, not a guarantee that the MAP sensor is working. If the MAP sensor is dead, the engine is not going to sustain operation (it won't transition from cranking mode to run mode). However, in the trouble shooting priority list, the MAP sensor is probably the last item to address
 
#4 ·
As an additional note, I think there is a work around for a bunged cold start injector. I am a little fuzzy on this since I replaced my D jet with Megasquirt 3 years ago. I seem to recall that if the D jet is energized and you press down on the gas pedal, the operation of the throttle switch will cause the main injectors to open and close (12 times from full close to full open???). I recall that this is actually one of the test procedures to check the operation of the switch (and injectors if you can hear them clicking). If you cold start injector is AWOL, you could experiment with one of two gas pedal operations to see how much fuel is needed to get a cold start. The injector operations is also why you leave the gas pedal alone if the cold start injector is operating - playing with the pedal will greatly assist in flooding your engine.
 
#5 ·
Thanks 142 Guy - Gives me something to play with tomorrow. Phil S. got me clued in on the throttle switch to injector check and it worked fine. Two at a time based on the trigger points at the distributor. So I think the ECU is reading it correctly.

I got new points and condenser today, and will replace them first. However, I am suspecting some sort of bad connection at ignition circuit to be a problem. If it keeps running while the starter motor is engaged, but stops upon release, it seems it may be a bad ignition switch (or corroded terminals). This thing has sat for 24 years, and has woken up slowly, so I am very suspicious of corroded terminals.

I will soak the CSI to see if I can break it loose if the direct voltage doesn't make it squirt!

I am currently at about 15 BTDC which shouldn't prevent it from starting.

What are you calling the MAP sensor? I didn't know that was even invented in 1973!?

Thanks for the assist - John
 
#6 ·
If you are getting an actual engine start during cranking and then it dies when you release the key to the run position, I would definitely be checking your ignition switch. They are available and not super expensive as I recall. If they are like the switch on my 142, it is not that hard to pry them apart and clean the contacts (if the contact is not broken). When I provided my comments I was assuming you had a case where the engine was firing during cranking; but, would not sustain operation.

15 BTDC may be iffy. 10 BTDC will be kinder to your starter and starting may be easier, particularly if the starter isn't in great shape. You have the low compression F head. I have a 71E with the 10.5 CR and about 32 deg of advance at wide open throttle is a good fit with 91 octane fuel. 15 deg of static advance would give me close to 40 deg total advance at WOT which would be pretty much disaster. You might want to consult with others to find out what a good total advance is for the F head. Until you find that out, I would err on the side of not enough advance rather than too much advance. You don't want to end the 'brought back to life' prematurely with a severe bought of detonation.

The D jet is a speed x density fuel injection system just like all modern EFI systems that use MAP sensors. In D jet speak I think they call it a pressure sensor or pressure transducer and it is that grapefruit sized pot metal thing probably mounted on the right front fender with a vacuum line over to the port in the middle of the intake manifold. Be careful with the sensor. I am pretty sure that they are out of production. The fatal failure is if the diaphragm inside them is damaged and leaks. I have heard mixed stories about whether the diaphragm can be repaired / replaced or not.

Carefully inspect the wiring to the plugs on the injectors, coolant sensor and intake air sensor. Bad connections and wiring failures are the Achilles heal of ageing D jet systems. On my car the wiring appeared to be intact; but, after unplugging the sensors and moving the plugs around a bit, the insulation started cracking and falling off. I ended up stripping the harness back to the firewall and splicing in new pieces of 125C rated wire. I used some flexible / expandable woven glass thermal jackets covered with black silicon rubber as replacements for the PVC covering on the wiring loom (got it from McMaster Carr). New terminal plugs and crimp spade connectors are available. I picked up some from Rock Auto. Reproduction rubber boots are available for the D jet terminals (they are not cheap).
 
#7 · (Edited)
Success! I got sustained running today. Changed the points and condenser. The points appeared new, but the condenser looked like it could be the original. When I tested it with a multimeter, I got so random up/down readings, but never settled on "0" when I tried to discharge it. The new one was much more predictable, so maybe it made a difference. In any case, it started, but it seemed to still run rich, having to keep the throttle pressed open to keep it going. But it eventually settled down, still high rough idle at 1000 rpm. (yes - the tach actually works!) Also confirmed timing at 10*BTDC statically.

The cold start valve still isn't working, but the idle eventually evened out a bit as it warmed. But still min 1000 rpm to keep it going. I plugged a pressure gauge in place of the CSV and it showed 36 psi. So I adjusted it down to 30 and was able to get a somewhat pulsing 500 rpm. But no stall.

With 70 psi oil pressure, and engine starting up consistently, I called it a good day. Noticed the alternator isn't contributing, so will need to address that. Otherwise charging it after each run wont work long term.

I put a temporary muffler on and found this bracket sticking out from the tranny tail. Can someone ID this for me?



Thanks,
John
 
#10 ·
.

But still min 1000 rpm to keep it going. I plugged a pressure gauge in place of the CSV and it showed 36 psi. So I adjusted it down to 30 and was able to get a somewhat pulsing 500 rpm. But no stall.

With 70 psi oil pressure, and engine starting up consistently, I called it a good day. Noticed the alternator isn't contributing, so will need to address that. Otherwise charging it after each run wont work long term.
500 RPM? Sustained idle at 500 RPM would be very unusual for a B20. You referred to pulsing. Is that pulsing on the fuel pressure reading or the RPM? If you are referring to the fuel pressure reading, some fluctuation in pressure would be normal at idle. If you are talking about RPM, if the fluctuation is significant, then that could be a sign that the throttle switch is out of adjustment.

Did you confirm that the alternator is not charging because the charge light is lit up? If so, then its the usual suspects to look at. If you confirmed non operation because the voltage is low, then make sure the charge indicator bulb is good. The Bosch (and probably the Motorola) need the small amount of current that flows through the indicator bulb to the 61 terminal to flash the field winding on start up. If the regulator is toast, davebarton.com has some nice adjustable solid state regulators to replace the Bosch regulator. I have had one for over a year and it keeps the voltage nice and steady around 13.4 v.
 
#8 ·
That bracket is a support for the exhaust front pipe. A U-bolt goes around the pipe from below and the nuts hold it to this bracket. It's not super-critical but it does help reduce stress on the header flange.

It's a little mysterious why your exhaust is so far outboard however. Is that a stock system? I notice your tranny is the automatic, it's kind of a tight fit around that, maybe someone did some creative bending and twisting.
 
#9 ·
Someone rewelded the pipe coming out of the down pipe. Since this is a temporary set-up, I will probably leave as is until I get a new system.

Did the 73 ES have three resonator/mufflers, or just two? Eventually looking for quiet system, so any recommendations on that would be appreciated.

Reading/learning more on the electrical, it would appear I need to focus on getting the full 12V produced in the system. I am using a tired battery that only stores 12.10 volts as it is, then while running it went down to 11.80V. So I am going to focus on getting the charging and battery up to standard before going too much further on the mechanical.

John L.

John
 
#11 ·
Yeps - 500 rpm, but it was chugging/surging like it wanted to stall. You could call it sustained, but I am sure it would have tripped over itself soon enough. I will get other items cleared up before fiddling with the TIS.

Not charging based on the light, but also the fact that the battery was diminished to 11.80V by the time I finished. Didn't think to test the battery while at charge, so will do that. However, I did not touch the alternator terminals yet, so I am hopeful it is like all the other items than eventually came back to life. I see these alternators must be quite common. Only a $12 - 16 core charge at the common auto parts stores. (My MGA generator core charge was $100.)

What amperage is correct for the B20F? When I look them up online, there are all sorts of amperages listed from 35 to 70!
 
#12 ·
The Bosch on my 1971 B20E is rated at 35 amps. If you have air conditioning (usually a dealer installed option so who knows what was installed) the alternator might be larger . Otherwise, I expect it would be the 35 amp unit. The service manual does not list an alternate rating for BW35 equipped cars.

Post a picture. It should be pretty easy to confirm whether it is a 35 amp Bosch or something else. Yes they are pretty common. You should be able to get a rebuild of the Bosch 35 amp for less than $70 from Rock Auto. I think the mechanical regulators are out of production so one way or the other you will end up with an electronic regulator if you need a new one. Somebody (Bosch?) makes a replacement regulator that looks identical to the original; but, check carefully and you will see that it is solid state.
 
#13 ·
Thanks 142Guy - The alternator is still on the car, so hard to get a good pic. However, it led me to notice a nipple on the RH side of the throttle body (left on the pic) that appears to be missing a hose. If this is true, what/where should the hose be going to/from?? Could be causing the surging idle if it is vacuum related I suppose...

 
#14 · (Edited)
On my '71 that port goes to the evaporative canister.

On my '71, that port enters the intake manifold just up-stream of the throttle plate when the throttle plate is in the closed position so it won't affect idle operation. If it is uncapped all it does is admit unfiltered air. I blocked mine off with a npt brass plug because my evap canister had the biscuit and I have not been able to find a suitable replacement.
 
#15 ·
Okay - I can see it wouldn't impact the air intake now that you mention it. I will use a large vacuum plug to stop it up. While waiting for a reply, I tried to track down a vacuum routing diagram for this car or at least this engine. I am wanting to check every connection, as I found the two larger pipes under the TB quite loose. They seem to head over to the thermostat housing, but not sure that is what I am looking at. What are those two hoses, and do they need to be tight fit?

Thanks
John
 
#16 · (Edited)
That is the auxiliary air valve / air by-pass regulator connection. The aux air valve is that thing stuck into the side of the block right by the thermostat. It allows additional air to bypass the idle air port adjustment screw to give you a fast idle when the engine is cold. If you pull the top hose off the aux air valve and look down into it you should see a V shaped notch. When cold this notch is open allowing air to pass from upstream of the idle adjustment screw to downstream of the idle adjustment screw. When hot, the notch closes up and the only source of idle air is coming through the idle adjustment screw (and the crankcase vent and any manifold leaks).

The aux air valves typically freeze up with age so it may be stuck open or stuck closed. This complicates setting idle. If it is stuck closed and you set your hot idle speed at its specified value, the cold idle speed is going to be too low. If it stuck open you are going to have a really fast hot idle and the idle adjustment screw may bottom out and you still have a really fast idle.

The downstream hose should be reasonably tight other wise it will allow the manifold vacuum to pull additional idle air causing a high idle speed. A loose up stream hose will just let dirty air into the intake manifold. The D jet is a speedxdensity system, so manifold air leaks are not a disaster (i.e. you don't run lean). You just end up with high (or really high) idle speed. Speedxdensity systems run off the MAP sensor and as far as the MAP sensor is concerned an air leak is indistinguishable from opening the throttle plate. The TPS on the D jet does not establish engine speed / power output. It is there primarily for acceleration enrichment, idle control, shutting fuel off during trailing throttle (some not all Djets?) and I seem to recall a flood clear function.

Edit:

Take a look at the diagram in post # 82 in the link to the following thread

http://forums.swedespeed.com/showthread.php?201780-What!-Another-142-Project-Car/page3

Part # 72 in the diagram is the aux air valve.
 
#17 · (Edited)
Super - where is that diagram from? Would be great to have the numerical index. I like it for becoming familiar with the engine (all in one place)! Thanks!

The two air by-pass hoses were basically falling off the manifold by themselves. However, they look durable enough to throw some clamps on the ends to help seal them up. I should probably do that on a couple of the other lines that have loosened up.

I tried to clean up the alternator terminals which were frozen into position. Hopefully I will be able to test it at the terminal ends (rather than at the battery) to determine if it is a faulty unit.

I continue to soak the cold start valve in Kroil for the third day. Tonight (yes, work interferes occasionally) I will put some air pressure to it (30-40 psi) and a 12v signal, and see if it has loosened up. If not, is there a crossover part from the 142 or other vehicle that will fit?

John
 
#18 ·
Along time ago, Genuine Classic Parts had .pdf versions of the parts manuals for the vintage Volvos. I downloaded the 140 parts manual at that time. They no longer have .pdf versions on their website. However, if you go here:

http://volvo1800pictures.com/sweden/Volvo_1800_dokumentation_main_page_en.php

I think you will find the parts manuals along with lots of other useful 1800 documentation.

I think any engine parts or anything attached to the engine from a B20F on a 140 series will transplant to a B20F on an 1800 and on a later 1800 the brake calipers are probably the same. Other stuff - no. The 1800 probably shares more stuff in common with the Amazon. The 1800 is more popular as a restoration candidate than the 140. If IRoll, VP Auto or Scandcar, or some of the other 1800 specialists don't have a part, you aren't going to find something by looking for a 140 part. In terms of parts availability for vintage Volvos, you are pretty much at the top of the heap.

The Djet system was used by a number of European car manufactures from late sixties to mid seventies. These include Volkwagon, I think BMW, Citroen, Porsche, Mercedes Benz, Saab and probably others. You might try vintage suppliers for those cars as some of the parts may be interchangeable.

This dude has an interesting overview on the D jet system. These guys are vintage Porche 914 racing crowd and they have figured out how to tune parts of the D jet controller (heads up, involves the use of a soldering iron!).

http://members.rennlist.com/pbanders/djetfund.htm
 
#19 ·
I think any engine parts or anything attached to the engine from a B20F on a 140 series will transplant to a B20F on an 1800 ...
Do you mean B20E? The B20F (Bosch K-jetronic) was never available on the P1800ES and I don't think the air unit with flapper and fuel distributor would even fit.
 
#20 ·
I thought all the B20 fuel injection engines became F engines in 1972 in the US when they got the 8.7:1 compression ratio head as part of emissions compliance requirements (still retaining the D jet fuel injection)? The K jet fuel injection system replaced the Djet fuel injection system in 1974 or 1975. The B20 with the high compression E head might have been available in some European markets after 1972.
 
#21 · (Edited)
Hmm. With no prior knowledge or bias, I somehow deduced that the 73 ES was the F version. I will be interested to know for sure.

Either way, thanks for the continuing feedback 142 Guy - learning is half the fun of restoring these early cars. If it was the carburated version, I am not sure it would be so challenging (Have enough SU's in the garage, thank you very much!)

Your comments on parts revolved around my potential need to get a new cold start valve. Of course, after three days of Kroil inside, a little pressure applied, battery to the solenoid, and BINGO) - a nice atomizing mist appeared!

 
#23 ·
So, is the head type the only differentiator? I always heard the 74-75 K-jet engines called "B20F", but never heard that on the later D-jets. The service manuals are quite wiggly on this.
 
#25 ·
You are correct. All 140 K-jets will be B 20F; but, all B20Fs will not be K jets - I new that Set theory class in university would be of some use eventually! Lets draw a Venn diagram:).

I was always curious as to why Bosch dropped production of the D jet system in favour of the K jet. I am guessing that the production costs for the K jet were probably lower than the D jet. I do know that on the early K jet systems, the switch from the 28-30 psi fuel pressure on the D jet to the 90 - 100 psi on the K jet caused some high pump mortality issues on the early K jets.
 
#26 ·
So that's how set theory works. They should have used automotive references! When I took physics for the second time, they started using familiar examples like banking on a curve. All of a sudden I went from a "insert embarrassing grade here" to an A!

Back at the shop, I was still experiencing difficult starting, and when it did run, it still sounded as if it was lugging (retarded ignition). The good news was that my ignition light finally went out while I warmed it up, and I found a charge going at the battery! Went from 13V up to 13.6V with more rpm. By the time I was done, it was up to 13.5 to 14.0. With a little more use, perhaps it will edge up a bit more.

Anyway, back to the lugging engine, I threw a timing light on and it showed 17 deg retarded! This after static timing to 10 BTDC! So I dialed it into 10 with the light and it immediately relaxed and gave the higher idle 142 Guy had expected. I won't say the engine purrs just yet, but it does sound a whole lot better! I will get a dwell meter on it this weekend. Can someone tell me the correct dwell setting for the "B20F with D-jet" ?

Prior to start, I had checked my oil cold - it showed at the MIN mark on the dipstick. I added approx a quart (assuming the marking was for a qt). After it warmed up, oil was pouring out at the bell housing. I rechecked the oil and it now showed at the MAX mark, but I had lost 1/2 pint! The flooding dissipated, but I am left wondering if I have a rear seal problem. A friend mentioned that my seals are probably stiff from non-use and, depending on material used, not to be surprised if they eventually sealed again. Any comments?

So, after warm up, I just had to see if it would move, right? Not a big deal, except for the fact that it's an automatic. It took a few shifts and non-action, but eventually the car moved on command! Was the delay due to the famous leak down of fluid at the torque converter? Once it started shifting, it didn't seem to falter. Although pretty short test track (12" on my lift)!

It might be time for me to start an official build thread! This one got me through the preliminary engine start issues and I thank everyone for sharing their knowledge base! Much Appreciated! I have had great results from this forum, from obtaining a good used set of tail pipe tips to the start-up! Glad I found my way here!

Thanks,
John
 
#27 ·
Agreed with all the fluid comments, but do watch that rear main seal carefully. It shouldn't be a gusher, ever. But it may indeed close up. Are you certain it's engine oil? The torque converter seal can leak, too, and it'll come out the same place.

Set your dwell to 59 degrees. Spec says 59-65. Be sure to re-time it afterwards, changing dwell alters it.
 
#29 · (Edited)
Unless they have been refitted, the OEM front and rear seals would be high tech pieces of felt. I don't think the felt itself shrinks; but, with the application of oil and heat they seem to get a varnish / hard surface on them. They certainly become stiff. I don't know whether fresh oil and operation will facilitate recovery. If you need to replace them, the hot ticket is housings that have been machined to accept slightly more modern neoprene seals. Most of the vintage Volvo vendors probably sell the replacement assemblies.

Even when the rear seal is leaking, as tmtalpey says, I don't think you would ever get oil 'pouring' out. Too much oil will lead to leaking at the back of the oil pan. Even if the pan gasket is new they seem to leak and since they are cork, they definitely do shrink and crack with age and heat. If it is cracked at the back and the oil level was really high, I could see oil pouring out. Try dropping the oil level to see if that resolves / reduces the problem. I seem to recall that from min to max is significantly less than 1 litre of oil.
 
#30 ·
Well, the good news is it only dribbled a tablespoon full tonight then stopped! I had checked the oil beforehand and it was still over full. So, did the seal recover, or did the oil leak down to a tolerable level? I would really like to know what those two marks equate to. It is certainly less than a liter. I didnt actually watch what I put in. Won't need to again for awhile!

Tonight was the first start with proper timing and CSV operating. It started more quickly and actually idled down at around the 5 minute mark. After warm-up I took compression readings again. Much improved from the cold test. 120, 122, 121. 117. (they were all around 100 cold)

I may take a little test drive tomorrow. See if it can actually move, now that it has power!
 
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