New problem, '02 S60 AWD. Diff issue
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    1. #1
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      New problem, '02 S60 AWD. Diff issue

      Hello all,

      After getting a bunch of help up here and figuring out where third gear went in my car, I am now in search of some new help.

      I have had an ever increasing whine in the car for the last 60 days or so. I bought the car Oct '16 and knew it had massive hail damage (over 180 ding/dents, I figured I could teach myself PDR) and I knew it had no third gear and usual AW55/50 issues. She has about 173k on her now. I spent some time relearning about the trans and have done a bunch of work on it including the B4 band recapture. Once I got third back it was time to start the whole STAGE 0 things.

      First thing was Haldex unit. Gen 1, finding a filter for it is a pain. Everything pulled out and drained. Replaced and refilled. Haldex seems to be working better but still not sure if it is working 100% of the time like it should.

      Second was the Angle gear, after having to use explosives to get the drain/fill plug out. Previous idiot must have used an air gun. So I put my finger in the hole and found nothing there. WTF... who the hell lets this happen. So it is now full again and will be redone in a couple of weeks just to make sure all is okay.

      Last is to get the rear diff serviced. Here lies the problem. HOW THE HELL DOES ONE GET THAT DRAIN/FILL PLUG OUT? The location just plain sucks. Do I have to drop the exhaust? What is on the other side of the plate/mount that is to the left and above it looking to the front from the back. What cat I yank out or loosen and move to get to the bolt. I am trying to remove the one on the rear cover on the upper left. I am at a loss right now.

      The big problem with just leaving it is that 1, I have no idea if it has ever been changed. 2, I have the whine/howl that starts at about 25 and get a little louder at 65. Was having the noise move around and now that the Haldex, angle gear, and trans are all serviced, it seams to be coming from the rear for sure. Odd thing is sound is less when turning right, cresting hills, or anything that unloads suspension. I have put the car in the air and checked all bearings and they sound great. I have checked THE driveline and again it seems fine.

      Now all of the fluids looked horrible overall. I didn't know Haldex fluid could get that black. What little bit of fluid I got out of the angle gear was just as black. The trans was serviced by a used car dealer before I bought the car and their idiot pulled the 27mm bolt to fill the trans. STUPID, STUPID, STUPID. Thankfully I was able to recapture the B4 band and after replacing the all of the solenoids other than SLT, SLU, SLS and doing a proper service, the trans is happy and shifting great so far, been about 800 miles since fix.

      So if anyone has any ideas or clues as to what I can move, remove, shift, use the blue wrench on, or what grade of explosives work best in this case, it would be great. I have tried offset wrenches, sockets with extensions, shallow universal joint sockets, and up to 18 inches of extra leverage. Nothing has worked and I really don't want to strip or round the plug.

      Thanks everyone.
      2002 S60 AWD (171,000 mi, stock so far, FOUND third gear)
      2002 V70XC (185,000 mi, was Daily driver now burnt exhaust valves on #4)
      1995 Saab 9000 CS (ZF Gertrag Auto, over 250,000 mi. 30+ mpg back-up car)
      1994 Saab 900 Turbo Classic Convertible (Auto, 124,000 mi, parade car)
      NEVER REMOVE THE 27mm BOLT, BAD THINGS HAPPEN

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    3. #2
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      So this one is quite a doozy. Before getting to the part where you mention it, I was going to suggest some sort of offset, angle or compact type adaptors to get to the bolt/plug. Not knowing what the setup actually looks like (since my 2.5T is FWD), I don't know what to honestly suggest. My only thought is an air tool (wrench, ratchet or better yet an impact gun). Impact gun shouldn't round off anything. Another suggestion and tool I have myself, is a hand impact driver. With an angle adaptor and extension to it, that may be the ticket. I have a Craftsman one, but I believe I recall Harbor Freight sells them too. I have mine from back in my Honda days of when one was almost required to loosen the factory tightened screw (Philips head) that holds the brake rotors on so that they don't just fall off when all hardware is removed when replacing or servicing the brakes. It's just like the bolt on ours, but a countersunk Philips head instead of a more proper hex head bolt like ours. A hand impact driver was the almost required tool suggested by everyone to loosen the screw, and prevent from rounding out the head. So I wonder if that tool might be your ticket in loosening the drain plug for the rear diff, especially if an air tool isn't available or even a good option... Man, I still can't believe that the NEVER REMOVE bolt was removed for fluid refilling purposes. I had wondered why on earth it would have even been removed.
      2004 S60 2.5T - Stock for now...

    4. #3
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      Almost forgot to ask, is the rear diff (or any of the AWD components) labeled as Fill For Life or unserviceable much like how the trans is? I sure hope not!
      Last edited by Phixion; 04-09-2017 at 05:32 PM.
      2004 S60 2.5T - Stock for now...

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    6. #4
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      I would be willing to bet it is listed as fill for life. The impact is what I am trying to avoid but I do have a variety of those to use now that I think about it. One of those out of sight out of mind kind of things. Guess I should open the bottom drawer on my tool box once in a while.

      Yes the screw on Honda rotors is a bitch. I usually just used a hammer style hand impact on them. The I would never put them back in. The good news is that was a lot better then the turn the car rotors from the first accords. That was a pain.

      As for my current problem, I guess if all else fails I can just drop the whole carrier out of it. Then there will be no problems getting to the bolts. This is just stupid. I wish I could find out what the thing is above the plug. Then I have to figure out how to remove that. Oh the joys of self wrenching.
      2002 S60 AWD (171,000 mi, stock so far, FOUND third gear)
      2002 V70XC (185,000 mi, was Daily driver now burnt exhaust valves on #4)
      1995 Saab 9000 CS (ZF Gertrag Auto, over 250,000 mi. 30+ mpg back-up car)
      1994 Saab 900 Turbo Classic Convertible (Auto, 124,000 mi, parade car)
      NEVER REMOVE THE 27mm BOLT, BAD THINGS HAPPEN

    7. #5
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      If you can grab a picture of it, maybe I or others here can help you identify it.

      Yeah, a hammer style hand impact driver is what I was referring to. On the rotors, once I cracked the screws loose the first time, I never needed it again. Just hand tightened them back on, and easy as pie to remove again later.

      Are you looking to avoid impact all together on it including hand impact? It seems with Volvo, when they don't want you to touch something, they make it difficult to even get to, the trans for example. Yet the old 27mm is surprisingly out in the open, ironic.

      Sent from my HTC One_M8 using Tapatalk
      2004 S60 2.5T - Stock for now...

    8. #6
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      I will see if I can get a pic of the area tomorrow. I guess not so much trying to avoid it as I forgot I had them. The joy of getting old I guess. I think when I get down to try to get a pick I will hook up one of the impacts and see if it will do the trick. Might be me just being STUPID and not using the right tool for the task at hand. I had to do my timing belt three times before I thought to get the gun out for the crank bolt. Sometimes wrenching on the old car makes me stupid. Might be the fumes. LOL
      2002 S60 AWD (171,000 mi, stock so far, FOUND third gear)
      2002 V70XC (185,000 mi, was Daily driver now burnt exhaust valves on #4)
      1995 Saab 9000 CS (ZF Gertrag Auto, over 250,000 mi. 30+ mpg back-up car)
      1994 Saab 900 Turbo Classic Convertible (Auto, 124,000 mi, parade car)
      NEVER REMOVE THE 27mm BOLT, BAD THINGS HAPPEN

    9. #7
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      Lol, I totally understand. A rolling chest of tools I have, yet sometimes I forget specific ones that I have when I need them. A member on here did theirs recently without taking off the crank pulley. I don't have air tools myself unfortunately, and don't think my Pep Boys 24v cordless impact gun will be enough oomph to loosen the bolt to it...

      Sent from my HTC One_M8 using Tapatalk
      2004 S60 2.5T - Stock for now...

    10. #8
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      It might actually be enough. If not then like the other member said, it can be done. Just have to take the bottom cover off. IIRC it is a 10mm bolt to the backside and one on the front that you have to get to from under the crank. When I did mine the first time I just left it off. It is super tight down there but very doable. The one time I did it without taking off the crank pulley, I think it added about 20 mins to the job. If you are trying to find the correct timing at the crank, I found out there is a dowel pin in the pulley. That pin always seemed to be in the 1:00 position. So if you find the cam timing marks and look for the timing mark in the valley of the teeth on the pulley and can't seem to find it, look at the face of the pulley. If the dowel pin is any place other than the 1'ish area, you are likely 180 degrees off. Pull your number one plug and check if you are at the top or not. If not then crank it till you get number one to the top and check all you marks and that dowel pin. Pretty sure you will find the pin is about 1:00.

      Like I say, you sure can do the belt without taking off the pulley. If I were to give you a skill level? If a drain and fill on the trans is a 2, and a lasso of the B4 band is say a 4, you would be looking at a 3. Mostly just tight and frustrating. Takes time to get over all of the grooves on the pulley. I think it is 8 total groves.

      As I say as well, as I smack myself in the forehead, I will try the impact and see if I can at least break the fusion that has happened. I am hoping it will break free and I can fill it for the first time since I got it. Then I will run it for a tank and hit it the angle gear and Haldex again just to make sure as much junk as possible is out of all of them. Might do another drain and fill on my trans, will have to check the fluid to see what it looks like.

      Just found an oil leak that looks like crush washers on my oil cooler so will do that with the oil change that is due in about 2weeks
      2002 S60 AWD (171,000 mi, stock so far, FOUND third gear)
      2002 V70XC (185,000 mi, was Daily driver now burnt exhaust valves on #4)
      1995 Saab 9000 CS (ZF Gertrag Auto, over 250,000 mi. 30+ mpg back-up car)
      1994 Saab 900 Turbo Classic Convertible (Auto, 124,000 mi, parade car)
      NEVER REMOVE THE 27mm BOLT, BAD THINGS HAPPEN

    11. #9
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      That's great info, thank you!

      How about letting some PB Blaster soak on the plug for a bit, could that maybe help loosen the seal any? Sometimes I find that things like this we go about wrong the first go around. My rear brakes for example... Couldn't get the rear rotors off or even to budge to save my life the first time I tried changing them. Even with the parking brake cable fully loosened, no dice. Not with a rubber mallet, not with a steel claw hammer to the rotor. 2nd go around some or a month or so later, had each one off within about 5 minutes each by trying again with a rubber mallet, but hitting very hard all around at different angles. The issue was the shoe liner had developed a lip of liner material on the edge of the brake "drum" surface.

      Sent from my HTC One_M8 using Tapatalk
      2004 S60 2.5T - Stock for now...

    12. #10
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      The PB Blaster is not helping as of yet with 3 applications. Judging by all of the other drain/fill plugs I have been dealing with on this beast, someone used a gun on it for sure. The lug nuts were so tight I had to use my 4 foot extension bar to get them loose. It seems as though the lot this car went to had a tech that believed every bolt needs to be a mm short of stripped. I bet I will find that the oil leak is because the bozo over tightened the crush washers. I just hope I can get this beast back where it needs to be. Stupid things like this keep me from doing the things that I really want to get done. Things like getting the alarm horn fixed. Starting work on 180 plus hail dents. Upgrading the breaks. Getting the PCV system done with cam seals. Getting the base boost set. Changing the wheels. Getting new plugs. Getting the air induction tube replaced (think it is leaking, getting a check engine about air intake temp). Just wanting to get the basics done so the car is ready for long term use.

      The other thing is that even though I really like this car, I want my XC back. I am still on the fence about rebuilding the top end on it or just getting a motor/trans and swap it in. If I do that, it could be interesting to do a 5/6 speed swap. If I go this route I will take the original motor/trans and take my time to rebuild both. The motor has near 190k on it but still has 180, 180, 180, 0, 180 compression, so I think the bottom end is probably okay. At this age and all I should probably look at replacing all of the seals on it and if I am going to go that far, might as well rebuild it all.

      Then there is the fact that I am always looking to upgrade the S60 or XC and I am looking to get a XC90 if I can find one in the right shape at the right price. I am looking at upgrading the Saab Convertables to a C70. Just not sure which one. Not sure if I want to go to the newer style and be based in a S40 platform or get the original and be in the P1 style. At some point I would like to be in the '05-'07 years for P2's.
      2002 S60 AWD (171,000 mi, stock so far, FOUND third gear)
      2002 V70XC (185,000 mi, was Daily driver now burnt exhaust valves on #4)
      1995 Saab 9000 CS (ZF Gertrag Auto, over 250,000 mi. 30+ mpg back-up car)
      1994 Saab 900 Turbo Classic Convertible (Auto, 124,000 mi, parade car)
      NEVER REMOVE THE 27mm BOLT, BAD THINGS HAPPEN

    13. #11
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      Air tools are such a double edged sword. I love them, but so many people abuse them like the dolt that over tightened what seems like every bolt on that car. Don't they know that wheel lugs for example go to a certain tightness (and no more) for a reason? Just craziness. Having (re)set the base boost on my 2.5T, it was quite easy really. I built my own wastegate pressure tool using a blood pressure cuff bulb pump, a Mr Gasket 1-15 psi gauge (which measures in ½ psi increments) and some silicon tubing. Worked like a charm for me, no iPD tire chuck tool needed! Just use their same video and chart. Actually the 2.5T motor isn't on their chart for some odd reason, but LPTs are generally at the same 1.8psi wastegate engagement point. HPTs are 4.4psi generally. I totally understand about wanting to get specific things done, and trivial things done by an armature (clearly) are slowing down the roll. Hoping you can get that rear diff plug cracked open.
      2004 S60 2.5T - Stock for now...

    14. #12
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      Setting base boost for me has always been a touch thing with the Saabs but as I found out on the XC, you have to use a guage or things get interesting. I just figured out how to use my mightyvac to do it. Haven't used one of those things in probably 20 years. I know once I got everything tuned on the turbo and all of its things and vac lines, that puppy did pretty good till I burned the exhaust valves on number 4 and went to zero compression on it. I had just gotten it to what I thought was a stable stage zero. Lesson here is don't use cheap gas or low octaine either. Bad things kind of like removing the 27mm bolt does, happen at many rpm's. When it decided to blow off the edge of the valves I was doing 75 mph on I-80. Managed to limp it home. Had a feeling I had tossed the whole motor but after some time and testing and the help of a borescope camera, I figured out that she burned the exhaust valves.

      To the subject at hand, I am hoping to get out in the AM to try the gun on the bolt and see if I can get it to crack loose. Fingers crossed it works. If not then it's time for the blue wrench. That sucker never fails.
      2002 S60 AWD (171,000 mi, stock so far, FOUND third gear)
      2002 V70XC (185,000 mi, was Daily driver now burnt exhaust valves on #4)
      1995 Saab 9000 CS (ZF Gertrag Auto, over 250,000 mi. 30+ mpg back-up car)
      1994 Saab 900 Turbo Classic Convertible (Auto, 124,000 mi, parade car)
      NEVER REMOVE THE 27mm BOLT, BAD THINGS HAPPEN

    15. #13
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      The blue wrench?? I need your tool chest, LOL! I'd try the gun on a low torque setting at first, then go from there if that doesn't do it.

      I need to get mine to a good stage 0. It's almost there. I have new coils I plan to put on when I do the T/belt the weekend after this next. And then I also have a set of new vacuum lines to/from the TVC that I got from iPD to install as well, and then checking all of my other lines and such as well too. I have no CELs or engine related codes in VIDA, and I'm lucky to ever get the boost on my gauge to reach 6psi. It'll do up to 4 with little to moderate effort, and 5 if I really push it.
      2004 S60 2.5T - Stock for now...

    16. #14
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      UPDATE

      Well some good news, managed to bend the bracket that was in my way enough to get a good angle and enough leverage on it and she finally broke free. The gun idea was good in theory, not in practice. Just not enough room to get the gun in there. The air ratchet just didn't have enough oomph to get it done. Once it was broken free it came out easy. Again, I stuck my finger in as far as humanly possible and found NO DAMN FLUID. There are no leaks that can be seen anywhere, SO, I tend to think this was the dealer idiot not doing his job again. So I put in 12 ounces of fluid, 12 freakin ounces. Me thinks the unit were dry boss. What kind of a fool does this kind of crap. So because of what I have found so far, I will be doing all fluids again in a couple of weeks.

      Took it for a quick spin and noise is WAY down. Still have to take it out for an extended run to see just how bad the noise really is. With it now having fluid in it I am sure it will be much quieter. Just worry that the damage is done. Guess we will see.

      Have to go see the prior owner, they have an extra set of keys and a fob for me. That is nice to hear, saves a fast $200 at the dealer. When I talk to them I am going to find out who this dealer idiot is and write up an invoice for her to take to the dealer and get them to pay for my time at least. So far there idiot tech has cost a 3rd gear recapture (B4 band), 5 of the 8 solenoids, 6 trans fluid flushes, a full Haldex service, an angle gear service, a diff service, and that's as far as I have gotten so far. So, parts alone are in the area of $600 and I am in at least 20 hours of labor at local shop rate of $125 hr, $2,500. So right now, in effect, she would have been out over $3,100 to get this crap back to where it was when the used dealer took it on trade. If she had taken it to the dealer... $4,500 for a trans (they never would have done the work I did), an new angle gear $1,500+, a new Haldex unit $2,000, a new rear diff $1,500+... what does that come to, $9,500+ to fix what they and their tech messed up. GOOD FREAKING GOD.

      So yet another issue fixed'ish at this point. Only thing to do for now it to drive it for another week or so and get in and re-do every fluid all over again. If all goes well then I may be able to get to all of the other stage zero things in short order.

      BTW, "The blue wrench" is the torch. I do my best to not use it but sometimes you just have no choice.

      The rule with my friends, neighbors, and family is, if I don't have the tool you need to get the job done, then you don't really need that tool. Have a 2 car garage and a 16x30 wood shop full of tools. Could damn near start my own shop.
      2002 S60 AWD (171,000 mi, stock so far, FOUND third gear)
      2002 V70XC (185,000 mi, was Daily driver now burnt exhaust valves on #4)
      1995 Saab 9000 CS (ZF Gertrag Auto, over 250,000 mi. 30+ mpg back-up car)
      1994 Saab 900 Turbo Classic Convertible (Auto, 124,000 mi, parade car)
      NEVER REMOVE THE 27mm BOLT, BAD THINGS HAPPEN

    17. #15
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      That's great to hear! Man, no fluid again?? How is that mechanic even employed, seriously!! I don't at all blame you for wanting the shop to reimburse you for all of the work that you put into the car to get it going. I mean that mechanic sounds worse than a Jiffy Lube chain! I'll bet once you get the fluids renewed again, it'll be much much better. On that note, a case of Mobil 3309 is only $60 shipped on Amazon right now. Thinking of picking up one myself for future use. It's thinks like what you're going through with the Haldex that make me thankful that I have a FWD model. Fingers crossed that running bone dry didn't cause any extended or permanent damage to the AWD system.

      Ahh I see, I do have a "blue wrench" myself in my tool cabinet! Indeed a great last resort tool to have!
      2004 S60 2.5T - Stock for now...

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