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    1. #1
      Member phillipu's Avatar
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      D5 lovers take note: Volvo says they will stop developing diesel engines to focus on EV


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    3. #2
      Junior Member kevinG's Avatar
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      Finally. Particulate matter is so high in diesel. Hope others see the light.
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      Global Moderator Paradox's Avatar
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      Meh. I don't necessarily want a diesel but I also don't want a plug-in or EV after previously owning 2.

      Good news for the EV people though.
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      Junior Member Ivos's Avatar
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      What would you say if petrol in the U.S. cost twice as much ? You would be shocked ? This is what it costs in Europe. Having 12-14 l/100l fuel consumption would be be quite costly affair ... Cheaper diesel with consumption 7-8 l/100km is much more convenient and that's why most people prefer diesel here. I hope Volvo will continue with diesels ...
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    7. #5
      Member phillipu's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Paradox View Post
      Meh. I don't necessarily want a diesel but I also don't want a plug-in or EV after previously owning 2.

      Good news for the EV people though.
      So what is your preferred alternative if diesel, PHEV and EV are out of consideration?

    8. #6
      Global Moderator Paradox's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by phillipu View Post
      So what is your preferred alternative
      I don't have one.
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    9. #7
      Junior Member volvokhaled's Avatar
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      D5 lovers take note: Volvo says they will stop developing diesel engines to focus on EV

      Volvo will continue to develop the current VEA Diesels for some years, demand is still high (especially in Europe, where for example 90% of the sold XC90s run on diesel). But no new generation of Diesel engines after that. Can't wait to see the new electric car in 2019. And of course the 3 cylinder hybrid setup on the CMA platform later this year with the XC40.

    10. #8
      Junior Member Olstyle's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Ivos View Post
      What would you say if petrol in the U.S. cost twice as much ? You would be shocked ? This is what it costs in Europe. Having 12-14 l/100l fuel consumption would be be quite costly affair ... Cheaper diesel with consumption 7-8 l/100km is much more convenient and that's why most people prefer diesel here. I hope Volvo will continue with diesels ...
      Diesel is already at least as expansive as petrol before taxes. And real difference in fuel consumption is not >50% but something around 25% (and that is because of 1l diesel having more energy than 1l of petrol, not because of efficiency differences between the engines which burn those) . So yes it might make a difference, but not as much as you might think.
      Last edited by Olstyle; 05-17-2017 at 02:41 PM.
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    11. #9
      Junior Member volvokhaled's Avatar
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      I drove a diesel car last year, sold it in February and bought a petrol. Both manual gearbox...almost the same amount of power. Difference in the fuel consumption is +8,2% for the petrol. It all depends on your driving style.

    12. #10
      Junior Member Ivos's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Olstyle View Post
      Diesel is already at least as expansive as petrol before taxes. And real difference in fuel consumption is not >50% but something around 25% (and that is because of 1l diesel having more energy than 1l of petrol, not because of efficiency differences between the engines which burn those) . So yes it might make a difference, but not as much as you might think.
      I was driving V70 T6 for one month. However soft I drove it, it never went less than 12-13 / 100 km
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    13. #11
      Quote Originally Posted by Ivos View Post
      I was driving V70 T6 for one month. However soft I drove it, it never went less than 12-13 / 100 km
      That's the old 6 cylinder engine, the new 4 cylinders are more efficient. My XC90 T6 burns 8 to 10 litres/100kms, a bit more than what you said above in your D5, but with 85 hp extra (D5 235 hp - T6 320 hp).

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      Quote Originally Posted by Ivos View Post
      What would you say if petrol in the U.S. cost twice as much ? You would be shocked ? This is what it costs in Europe. Having 12-14 l/100l fuel consumption would be be quite costly affair ... Cheaper diesel with consumption 7-8 l/100km is much more convenient and that's why most people prefer diesel here. I hope Volvo will continue with diesels ...
      Most, but certainly not all. I haven't bought a diesel car in the more than 40 years I drive cars.
      But you are right, a lot of people still buy diesels here in Belgium.
      It's still being encouraged by the government by making gasoline much more expensive than diesel
      while the fuels themselves aren't much different in price when they leave the reffinery.
      Moreover, the caloric content of diesel is about 15¨% higher (explaining a big part of the better fuel consulption) , so it should be more expensive since you buy energy.
      Last edited by Zahra; 05-18-2017 at 10:08 AM.

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      Quote Originally Posted by kevinG View Post
      Finally. Particulate matter is so high in diesel. Hope others see the light.
      Agreed. Kudos to Volvo for being one of the few traditional automakers that seems to realize that the ICE's days are numbered and is taking concrete action to prepare for the future. (Including planned obsolescence of their ICE engines.)

      Quote Originally Posted by Paradox View Post
      Meh. I don't necessarily want a diesel but I also don't want a plug-in or EV after previously owning 2.

      Good news for the EV people though.
      Enjoy your remaining gasoline-powered years while you can!

    16. #14
      Global Moderator Paradox's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Zaxxon View Post



      Enjoy your remaining gasoline-powered years while you can!

      I am, they'll still be around for many years to come.

      Edit: I wouldn't mind seeing a hybrid xc90 but not a plug-in or ev, at least for me. Hybrids at least keep the same size gas tank and have a spare, for the most part. Plug ins and Ev's do not and that's why I have no interest in them. Well that and electricity costs an arm and a leg and a new born where I live per kWh so I just wanna gas up and go. To each their own.
      Last edited by Paradox; 05-17-2017 at 07:10 PM.
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    17. #15
      Global Moderator GrecianVolvo's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by volvokhaled View Post
      I drove a diesel car last year, sold it in February and bought a petrol. Both manual gearbox...almost the same amount of power. Difference in the fuel consumption is +8,2% for the petrol. It all depends on your driving style.
      No diesel will be equal to petrol with regards to power, acceleration and joy of driving. Absolutely none.

      With the governments (especially the E.U.) demanding steep cuts in emissions, there is only so much the manufacturers can do and so much they can spend to further skin this car. At the end of the day, this is not Formula 1 where "unlimited" budgets and very niche technology can allow manufacturers to continuously keep on shrinking engine size and get similar levels of power.

      The future is not diesel, that's for sure, and every manufacturer knows that.
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    18. #16
      Junior Member goce's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by volvokhaled View Post
      I drove a diesel car last year, sold it in February and bought a petrol. Both manual gearbox...almost the same amount of power. Difference in the fuel consumption is +8,2% for the petrol. It all depends on your driving style.
      Yes it depends on the driving style and how much weight and outside temperature (air conditioning usage) etc etc. But +8.2% is a bit optimistic isn't it?

      I'll start with offical figures. For D5 is 6.2 L/100km and T6 is 8.5 L/100km advertised in here. That is at least 35% difference when the car is driven in best possible conditions - read on how the do the test. Now, we all know diesels respond much better to weight increase, so I can safely assume (and have some experience) that diesel fuel consumption would not increase as much as more weight is added to the car. Also the acceleration would not be affected as much with weight increase or going uphill - can confirm this comparing with my previous V6 petrol sedan.

      This is my first diesel car and probably last one. I do find lot of benefits in diesel but the environment always take priority for me. Didn't' get the T8 because is much more expensive (about 20%) and we don't' get much if any subsidy in here.

      I did lot of research before getting diesel and the pros to get D5 where:
      - Initial price was about $5K cheaper compared to T6. That is lot of free petrol, right?
      - Ongoing running fuel costs for T6 are about +40% ($1200 vs $1700 per year) based on advertised fuel economy and fuel prices in here. In real life my D5 consume about 10 L/100km and the $500 difference would be closer to $800 per year.
      - Base on forums, diesel engins performance doesn't decrease as much as they age.
      - Base on forums, diesel engines fuel consumption doesn't increase as much as they age. I had V6 petrol and after 80K km it started consuming +30% more than when new.
      - After test drive I did like the driving dynamics of diesel - With this kind of car, I'm more into cruising than racing mode.

      The biggest disadvantages are the noise and the smell on your hands after filing up at the pump. I also believe even with DPF they do pollute more than petrol.

      I'm really hoping my next car would be fully electric. And @Paradox , I assume full electric car, like Tesla, would have spare wheel? After all, there is plenty of room, right?
      Last edited by goce; 05-18-2017 at 10:03 AM.
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      No T5 in Australia?
      I can't confirm that pertol engines cosume more fuel when thay age,
      that hasn't happened to the cars I drove over more than 40 years.

    20. #18
      Junior Member Olstyle's Avatar
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      A lot of people seem to confuse the advantages and feel of Turbo engines (=more torque) with the difference between Petrol and Diesel engines. This D5 vs. V6 example sounds a lot like that.
      (and decreasing power in any engine is mainly a question of bad servicing)
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      Quote Originally Posted by goce View Post
      Yes it depends on the driving style and how much weight and outside temperature (air conditioning usage) etc etc. But +8.2% is a bit optimistic isn't it?

      I'll start with offical figures. For D5 is 6.2 L/100km and T6 is 8.5 L/100km advertised in here. That is at least 35% difference when the car is driven in best possible conditions - read on how the do the test. Now, we all know diesels respond much better to weight increase, so I can safely assume (and have some experience) that diesel fuel consumption would not increase as much as more weight is added to the car. Also the acceleration would not be affected as much with weight increase or going uphill - can confirm this comparing with my previous V6 petrol sedan.

      This is my first diesel car and probably last one. I do find lot of benefits in diesel but the environment always take priority for me. Didn't' get the T8 because is much more expensive (about 20%) and we don't' get much if any subsidy in here.

      I did lot of research before getting diesel and the pros to get D5 where:
      - Initial price was about $5K cheaper compared to T6. That is lot of free petrol, right?
      - Ongoing running fuel costs for T6 are about +40% ($1200 vs $1700 per year) based on advertised fuel economy and fuel prices in here. In real life my D5 consume about 10 L/100km and the $500 difference would be closer to $800 per year.
      - Base on forums, diesel engins performance doesn't decrease as much as they age.
      - Base on forums, diesel engines fuel consumption doesn't increase as much as they age. I had V6 petrol and after 80K km it started consuming +30% more than when new.
      - After test drive I did like the driving dynamics of diesel - With this kind of car, I'm more into cruising than racing mode.

      The biggest disadvantages are the noise and the smell on your hands after filing up at the pump. I also believe even with DPF they do pollute more than petrol.

      I'm really hoping my next car would be fully electric. And @Paradox , I assume full electric car, like Tesla, would have spare wheel? After all, there is plenty of room, right?
      This was exactly our case. We bought D5 which was the first and would be probably the last diesel car. We love it, but then there is the aspect of the environment impact which I don't like. I really loved T8 but the price difference of almost 20k and the fact that electric engine would not last my whole daily commute were against it.

      We are planning to keep our D5 for 3-4 years and I would love to buy T8 after that. I believe the range would be way higher as it is now so it would be perfect for us.


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    22. #20
      Junior Member Seti's Avatar
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      If Volvo discontinues diesels and you still want to buy a diesel car, then Jaguar Land Rover will be your next brand to consider, especially Jaguar. Jaguar's design head, Ian McCullum or something, defended the use of diesel in the foreseeable longish term future. They are also developing an EV for launch either later this or next year.

      Volvo must think twice before killing off diesels, lest they lose a significant number of customers to other carmakers.
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    23. #21
      Junior Member Ivos's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by carz View Post
      That's the old 6 cylinder engine, the new 4 cylinders are more efficient. My XC90 T6 burns 8 to 10 litres/100kms, a bit more than what you said above in your D5, but with 85 hp extra (D5 235 hp - T6 320 hp).
      Well, if I am going to stay with XC90 (which is very likely) as the next car, I may strongly consider T6 ... I wonder if the cabin engine noise is generally less in T6 comparing to D5 ?
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    24. #22
      Junior Member Seti's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Ivos View Post
      Well, if I am going to stay with XC90 (which is very likely) as the next car, I may strongly consider T6 ... I wonder if the cabin engine noise is generally less in T6 comparing to D5 ?
      Concerning interior vehicle noise, if Volvo doesn't want to do this because it will raise costs significantly, then let them sell, as an accessory, material to lessen interior noise to certain guaranteed decibels when the car is driving at 120KM/H for example, to customers as part of their vehicle ordering process.

      Just as lambswool carpet is an optional accessory, surely owners wouldn't mind buying an option to keep max noise level to the lowest decibels as possible at a reasonable fee. And while at this noise deadening option, they must also introduce another driving mode at speeds below 130KM/h to be called "super-comfort" which, when set, can make our air suspension in our cars super soft so it glides over small humps and uneven road surfaces.

      That's an extra cost I am willing to purchase, provided it's not more than Polestar fee.
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    25. #23
      Member volvocu's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Ivos View Post
      What would you say if petrol in the U.S. cost twice as much ? You would be shocked ? This is what it costs in Europe. Having 12-14 l/100l fuel consumption would be be quite costly affair ... Cheaper diesel with consumption 7-8 l/100km is much more convenient and that's why most people prefer diesel here. I hope Volvo will continue with diesels ...
      Diesel does not cost twice as much, its more like 20-50% more costly in overall cost depending on your route, unit price difference etc., which is not negligible I concur.

    26. #24
      Junior Member Ivos's Avatar
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      Interesting thread about T6 vs D5 compoarison: http://www.volvoforums.org.uk/showthread.php?t=255510

      Especially: I have a D5 XC90 and my mate has a T6. Performance-wise in real world driving there's very little to choose between them. I'd say the extra torque of the D5 makes up for its apparent lack of power. To get the most from the T6 (especially at lower speeds) you really have to push the revs up and the engine is surprisingly noisy at high revs (and not in a good way).

      With the T6 there's also the much higher upfront cost, extra road tax, higher fuel consumption and I suspect it'll depreciate much faster. I would've preferred a petrol XC90 but not with these factors working against it.
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      Inevitable, what with all of the bad press diesel gets.

      So if diesel is banned (highly likely in Europe), do we just throw away our diesels? Did something similar with petrol not so long ago

    28. #26
      Junior Member Seti's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Another Volvo View Post
      Inevitable, what with all of the bad press diesel gets.

      So if diesel is banned (highly likely in Europe), do we just throw away our diesels? Did something similar with petrol not so long ago
      Why aren't regulators not banning higher sulphur (sulfur to my dear Americans) diesel content, which trucks make use of and is the reason for the pollution? Are they saying diesel cannot be refined any further and economically to the tiniest sulphur content? Or is the ban not because of sulphur but something else, and what is it then?

      Imagine we now have to throw away, not only our existing cars, but our UPS generators for backup power against municipal power failures as well. Who knows, politicians might be in the pockets of lobbyists from non-diesel power suppliers wanting to cash in big time from us
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    29. #27
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      Quote Originally Posted by GrecianVolvo View Post
      No diesel will be equal to petrol with regards to power, acceleration and joy of driving. Absolutely none.

      With the governments (especially the E.U.) demanding steep cuts in emissions, there is only so much the manufacturers can do and so much they can spend to further skin this car. At the end of the day, this is not Formula 1 where "unlimited" budgets and very niche technology can allow manufacturers to continuously keep on shrinking engine size and get similar levels of power.

      The future is not diesel, that's for sure, and every manufacturer knows that.
      That may be your personal opinion, but after a number of diesel and petrol cars I disagree. I enjoy the performance of my diesel XC90. At the price we pay for fuel I certainly would not like to be paying the running costs of a T6, as Volvo, like other manufacturers have vastly over exaggerated the mpg in the XC90. My REAL average mpg since getting my XC90 is 32mpg not the 50mpg quoted by Volvo, and that is pretty careful driving without the car being loaded almost all of the time.
      Diesels days may well be numbered, but we need to see a viable alternative and that certainly is not the XC90 T8 or T6 in Europe.
      I am not sure I would want to be one of the early adopters of an EV car from Volvo being made in China.
      Last edited by neon; 05-20-2017 at 05:24 AM.
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      Quote Originally Posted by Seti View Post
      Why aren't regulators not banning higher sulphur (sulfur to my dear Americans) diesel content, which trucks make use of and is the reason for the pollution? Are they saying diesel cannot be refined any further and economically to the tiniest sulphur content? Or is the ban not because of sulphur but something else, and what is it then?

      Imagine we now have to throw away, not only our existing cars, but our UPS generators for backup power against municipal power failures as well. Who knows, politicians might be in the pockets of lobbyists from non-diesel power suppliers wanting to cash in big time from us
      I think the ban came from VW's dieselgate, where they managed to dupe the EU. The ban is about NOx, which is higher in diesels due to the higher running temperatures. However, VW's defeat device meant they could emit over 40 times more than in test. NOx causes a lot of health issues.

      And yes, many industrial vehicles and equipment run on diesel. Volvo's clean image means they would be one of the first to drop diesel.

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      Quote Originally Posted by Another Volvo View Post
      Inevitable, what with all of the bad press diesel gets.

      So if diesel is banned (highly likely in Europe), do we just throw away our diesels? Did something similar with petrol not so long ago
      Not only diesel, it seems that the EU will ban sales of all internal combustion engines in 2035.

    32. #30
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      Volvo stops developing diesel engines. Volvo could still source diesel engines from third parties like they did prior to the introduction if the D5 in 2001.

    33. #31
      Global Moderator GrecianVolvo's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by neon View Post
      That may be your personal opinion, but after a number of diesel and petrol cars I disagree. I enjoy the performance of my diesel XC90.
      Performance can be very ambiguous in its interpretation...towing? Yes, diesels will have a big edge. Beyond that, no. Don't get me wrong; I have driven diesels every summer, during my vacations, and I would not mind owning one but if I had a choice, I would choose gas or electric.
      At the price we pay for fuel I certainly would not like to be paying the running costs of a T6, as Volvo, like other manufacturers have vastly over exaggerated the mpg in the XC90.
      I agree with you. I am very familiar with fuel prices in Europe and that makes for a compelling argument re: diesel usage. Here in the U.S., we are very fortunate, to the point of taking out good fortune for granted...

      My REAL average mpg since getting my XC90 is 32mpg not the 50mpg quoted by Volvo, and that is pretty careful driving without the car being loaded almost all of the time.
      As you know, the mpg figures are averages and/or figures obtained under controlled testing and should only be used as a comparison. It is also explained on the manufacturers' websites or literature (any manufacturer's):
      "Official fuel consumption figures are obtained in accordance with Directive 93/116/EC as amended by 1999/100/EC. The figures are obtained under controlled test conditions and as such consumption achieved on
      the road will not necessarily accord with the official test results. Factors including driving styles and road, car and weather conditions will also have a bearing on actual fuel consumption achieved."


      Diesels days may well be numbered, but we need to see a viable alternative and that certainly is not the XC90 T8 or T6 in Europe.
      I am not sure I would want to be one of the early adopters of an EV car from Volvo being made in China.
      Why? What is your fear? That the car would catch on fire? If yes, there are some other brands (or brand) that you can look up for that...
      The "China fear" has been exploited well enough and many need to get over it as any poor quality fears (especially when it comes to Volvos being assembled there) have been shot down with actual results.
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      Thanks for the reply.
      As I said your opinion, not everyones, particularly in Europe. My car shifts pretty well for me.

      With the real mpg, yes I know there is a difference with every manufacturer on declared and real but, 32mpg vs 50mpg is a massive over declaration.

      I have no fear of cars catching fire with batteries, but the T8, 20 miles range then an expensive switch to petrol with poorer mpg due the weight of the batteries, come on, the reason people buy it here is mainly because of the company car tax benefits. Then you have the the hassle of charging and cost. In addition the huge premium in buying the T8 in the first place.

      With Chinese cars my concern would be how long it would take Volvo to get the right quality culture in. I am not so sure Volvo will be as effective at it as Apple are. Look how long it has taken the issues to be resolved on the XC90 being built in Sweden. Misaligned body panel, mismatch of paint colours and leaking sunroofs etc. I predict anyone buying a Chinese built Volvo EV will be beta testing the car for them for at least the first 2 years.

      I love my XC90 but I am also a realist.
      Last edited by neon; 05-20-2017 at 02:02 PM.
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    35. #33
      Member Brutus99's Avatar
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      Can't wait for full electric XC90! I wish the T8 would have higher electric range now but still love it regardless.

      Just made a 100 mile trip up north and our average was 6.9l (34 mpg) which is amazing really
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      2016 T8 R-Design | Crystal White | Convenience | Vision | Climate with HUD | PAII | Air Suspension | 22" Wheels | Carbon Fiber | Front Mud Flaps | OEM Rubber Floor Mats | Front Tint 35% | DashCam | 20" R-Design Wheels w/ Blizzak DMV2 | Ordered Feb 2/16 - Picked up June 7/16

    36. #34
      Global Moderator GrecianVolvo's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by neon View Post

      I have no fear of cars catching fire with batteries, but the T8, 20 miles range then an expensive switch to petrol with poorer mpg due the weight of the batteries, come on, the reason people buy it here is mainly because of the company car tax benefits. Then you have the the hassle of charging and cost. In addition the huge premium in buying the T8 in the first place.
      There are quite a few reasons why people buy electric or hybrid cars. Some are driven by the reasons you wrote above. Some because their neighbor or friend has one and they want to join the crowd. Many are driven by environmental reasons and are adapting their lifestyle in gradually reducing their carbon foot print and are very staunch supporters of this sort of lifestyle.
      I know, for sure, that operating a diesel-powered machine is the last thing one anyone's mind, unless it is a diesel-hybrid unit.

      Diesel emissions and environment is an oxymoron.

      With Chinese cars my concern would be how long it would take Volvo to get the right quality culture in. I am not so sure Volvo will be as effective at it as Apple are. Look how long it has taken the issues to be resolved on the XC90 being built in Sweden. Misaligned body panel, mismatch of paint colours and leaking sunroofs etc. I predict anyone buying a Chinese built Volvo EV will be beta testing the car for them for at least the first 2 years.

      I love my XC90 but I am also a realist.
      I will not write a lengthy reply to this, as I would most certainly be inclined to do so, since it seems you have made up your mind on the subject. I will only repeat that Volvo's factories in China are state-of-the-art, equal to those in Sweden and Belgium. Additionally, Volvo's GLOBAL method of building cars means just that; there is only one way and all cars, no matter where they are assembled, go under the same scrutiny and quality control. The S60s assembled in Chengdu have been hailed to be of the same or even higher quality vs those that were being built in Sweden and Belgium.

      Cars can exhibit issues no matter where they are built; BMWs in South Carolina, Mercedes in Alabama, etc. I believe none of us have any evidence to question the work ethic of Chinese people, in general. If you provide them with the specs, right training and direction needed, they work as well or better than Western workers.
      2001 Volvo V70 T5 M SR, Classic Red/Graphite Lthr, TME Stage II ECU, 3" Downpipe w/ Cat-back exhaust from MTE, Volvo Roadholding & Lowering Kit w/ Nivomats, 17" PEGASUS, Rear Spoiler, Dolby Surround Sound
      2017 XC90 T6 AWD Inscription, Crystal White w/ Charcoal Nappa Leather Convenience, Vision, Volvo Trailer Hitch, Polestar

    37. #35
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      But you are clearly not impartial and would not say anything that would impact on the Volvo name and strategy going forward. I understand as you are employed by the Chinese you are also never going to be making any negative comment about their products as it would be very career limiting. I do agree though with some of the logic.
      I buy from China and deal with China a fair bit and I know that they can produce good product when managed well, but when managed poorly they produce some pretty shoddy stuff and have a reputation for that in general. My concern is more how they will be managed by Volvo and how quickly the likes of Lean Manufacturing Techniques will be imbedded as the XC90 built in Volvo's home ground has been far from trouble free and is only just getting there and that is supposed to be state of the art. I admire Volvo in where they have come from in the challenging times and the real vision they are implementing, that is one of the reasons why I bought my first ever Volvo.
      Unless Volvo are in the league of the likes of Apple I still think that with brand new technology, brand new workforce and manufacturing plant, as I forecast, 2 years min before the Volvo EV will be as it should be.
      Last edited by neon; 05-20-2017 at 05:59 PM.
      MY17 XC90 D5 Inscription, Polestar, Osmium Grey, Blond Nappa, Walnut, Xenium, Winter with HUD, Auxiliary Heater, Homelink, Heated Rear Seats, Subwoofer, Android Auto & Apple Car Play, Tinted Windows

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