Exhaust manifold gasked (squealing issue) job - few questions - Page 2
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    1. #36
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      Quote Originally Posted by mercdude View Post
      No. You just have to either take the DP off; or, (the easier method) take all the studs out by double-nutting. Tedious work though, but not hard. Shops are just going by an estimate of the exhaust manifold/turbo replace and removal. Which is not necessary and is much more work.

      But yes, there is an interference between the exhaust system and the exhaust shield of the transfer case. With the studs and DP in place, you can't back the manifold off the studs. Hence, double-nut them all out. Hey, gives you a chance to inspection everything. Right?
      Hmm so does the angle gear need to be removed if the exhaust manifold/turbo is being replaced? Because that's actually what I'm going to have done, however, the shop said that just replacing the gasket will be almost the same procedure and the price won't be much different.
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    3. #37
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      I assume, then, the purpose of going with the thick(er) gasket was for the fasteners to remain tight but allow for thermal expansion/contraction of the manifold.
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    4. #38
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      Quote Originally Posted by V50toS40 View Post
      Hmm so does the angle gear need to be removed if the exhaust manifold/turbo is being replaced? Because that's actually what I'm going to have done, however, the shop said that just replacing the gasket will be almost the same procedure and the price won't be much different.
      Good question. There could be enough room (if you undid the engine mounts) to get the assembly out through the top. But if not, you could try to disassemble the turbo from the manifold in place. Then, they would just come out as two pieces through the top of the engine.
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    6. #39
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      Btw pcv have you taken a close look at these exhaust manifolds? They've got tooled cuts between the individual runners (except the center 2 cylinders) to allow for individual movement. Pretty creative, I thought.
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    7. #40
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      Quote Originally Posted by mercdude View Post
      So you guys are saying only 20lbs of torque for the studs? That seems low. I'd guess more like 35. Can someone double-check on VIDA?
      I keep forgetting that I can use Vida for this ... (duuh... :/)

      from Vida for B5254T3 engine:
      Torque: Coolant pipe to turbocharger, 38 Nm
      Torque: Oil pressure pipe to the turbocharger, 26 Nm
      Torque: Crankcase connection-turbocharger, 25 Nm
      Torque: M8, 24 Nm (nuts for exhaust manifold)
      Torque: Catalytic converter to turbocharger, 24 Nm
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    8. #41
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      I have read on a lot of other forums about people having issues with exhaust backing out -- one guy on a lotus forum referenced how he used to have a T5 and he used a combination of aircraft locknuts (https://www.fastenright.com/general-...ight-nuts/sl01) and special toothed washers and it fixed it for good.

    9. #42
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      I also saw references (on other vehicles) to exhaust manifolds needing to be torqued while it is hot in order for the nuts to stay tight.

    10. #43
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      Very interesting. I'd be interested in replacing the oem nuts with those if I knew the correct metric thread/pitch


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    11. #44
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      Quote Originally Posted by mercdude View Post
      Very interesting. I'd be interested in replacing the oem nuts with those if I knew the correct metric thread/pitch
      If they follow normal nut standards, a 13mm head would be an M8.

      Also, the lock washers that the lotus guy was using are called Nord-Lock washers.

    12. #45

    13. #46
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      Lotus thread here:

      https://www.thelotusforums.com/forum...locking-plate/

      Let's collaborate and solve this issue so we can stop re-tightening so often, then sticky it with the other things to do when you get a new T5!

    14. #47
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      Would it be better to use those wedged nuts + OEM washers (that apparently are designed specifically for allowing expansion) or OEM nuts with nord-lock washers? Or both?
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    15. #48
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      Quote Originally Posted by LizardOfBodom View Post
      Would it be better to use those wedged nuts + OEM washers (that apparently are designed specifically for allowing expansion) or OEM nuts with nord-lock washers? Or both?
      Not sure what you mean by "OEM washers" - my exhaust manifold only has studs and then nuts. The nuts have a larger base, sorta like a washer, if that's what you are referencing. I think the oem nuts in combo with nord lock washers would be the easiest to accomplish and would probably work fine. I'd have to double check to see if there aren't any areas that would be too tight to use the washers.
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    16. #49
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      Quote Originally Posted by mercdude View Post
      Not sure what you mean by "OEM washers" - my exhaust manifold only has studs and then nuts. The nuts have a larger base, sorta like a washer, if that's what you are referencing. I think the oem nuts in combo with nord lock washers would be the easiest to accomplish and would probably work fine. I'd have to double check to see if there aren't any areas that would be too tight to use the washers.
      I meant THOSE. Have read that those are specially designed to absorb the vibrations and allow minimal expansion when manifold gets hot, thats why have weird shape. Those were cheap enough so I ordered 12 from volvo and will have them replaced when doing the job.
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    17. #50
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      Oh, I like those washers. But these seem like they would allow the manifold to expand instead of restrict expansion while maintaining torque, hence the concave shape.
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    18. #51
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      Just looked at tasca's website - what the h*ll? The stock diagram shows these on the t5 - does everyone have these on their car? I certainly don't.
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    19. #52
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      Quote Originally Posted by mercdude View Post
      Just looked at tasca's website - what the h*ll? The stock diagram shows these on the t5 - does everyone have these on their car? I certainly don't.
      yep, also shown on Vida (see my 1st post, number 8 on pic). You are right those are design to expand a little but apparently those are specifically designed like this for turbo engine. No clue why or is that good/bad, just repeating what I found on web. I suppose replacing them for brand new is no harm.
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    20. #53
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      Okay double-checked my exhaust nuts - apparently I do have those conical washers installed (weird because I don't remember installing them). Since I couldn't get a torque wrench on the nuts, I practiced on a bolt/nut put into a vise and got the feel for hand torquing to 20lbs with a 3/8" rachet and socket - it's basically 'snug' but no more. Then I went back and detensioned and then retorqued all the exhaust nuts. I'm guessing I had them around 35lbs and I think I got them somewhere in the ballpark of 20-25lbs now. And that's as good as I'm gonna get. Hopefully that'll keep the studs from breaking *cross fingers* in the long run.

      If anyone can point me to a reasonably cost effective mini torque wrench that's about 5-6" in length, let me know.

      Btw, thanks to the good folks on this forum. I'd be a much poorer p1 owner without you all.
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    21. #54
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      Hmm...I was able to get my standard 3/8 drive torque wrench from harbor freight in there no problem on my S40...with the help of some wobble extensions.

    22. #55
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      Just standard length (16-18")? I tried a shortish (12-14") 1/4" torque wrench that went to 200inch pounds and had a hard time getting it to work properly in the tight space and then I just gave up.
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    23. #56
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      Small update on my case.
      Car spent full day on Friday with my trusty mechs trying to fix it properly - to no avail They were not even able to get the manifold off because every single nut&stud that were touched were just disintegrating. With limited space available, even with angle-drill, they were not able to fully remove some studs that broke creating cone-shape and were impossible to properly drill out. All in all, after few failed attempts and broken nuts/studs they gave up taking the manifold off. So they patched up what was possible, tightened up what they could and replaced 2 studs and some washers. I was told that this is the last "patching" resort and to do it properly (replacing gaskets and all studs) they need to drop the engine to access this properly.
      "farting" stopped now, but I suspect not for long. Even they said its only "patch up" and best they could do given circumstances.
      So thats my luck, need to prepare myself mentally to either part with the car now (noo.......) or start saving for having this done properly.

      Really gutted, as I thought it can be done quickly and cheaply enough. Right now car drives great again - turbo spools up quicker and you can feel car pulls better and without the obnoxious noise.

      Is there any other ideas you might have that are less drastic than dropping the engine or removing the head, having in mind that you need full access to all nuts/studs to properly drill them out, so no half-measures? If not, whats the procedure for taking the engine out on this model? Goes from the top, bottom or what? (asking from curiosity as taking the engine out for me is comparable with NASA's space probe launch).

      thanks
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    24. #57
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      Quote Originally Posted by mercdude View Post
      Just standard length (16-18")? I tried a shortish (12-14") 1/4" torque wrench that went to 200inch pounds and had a hard time getting it to work properly in the tight space and then I just gave up.
      Yeah, just the harbor freight 3/8 torque wrench. I'd say it is about 14 inches long. I removed the intake piping for a little more room.

    25. #58
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      Quote Originally Posted by LizardOfBodom View Post
      Small update on my case.
      Car spent full day on Friday with my trusty mechs trying to fix it properly - to no avail They were not even able to get the manifold off because every single nut&stud that were touched were just disintegrating. With limited space available, even with angle-drill, they were not able to fully remove some studs that broke creating cone-shape and were impossible to properly drill out. All in all, after few failed attempts and broken nuts/studs they gave up taking the manifold off. So they patched up what was possible, tightened up what they could and replaced 2 studs and some washers. I was told that this is the last "patching" resort and to do it properly (replacing gaskets and all studs) they need to drop the engine to access this properly.
      "farting" stopped now, but I suspect not for long. Even they said its only "patch up" and best they could do given circumstances.
      So thats my luck, need to prepare myself mentally to either part with the car now (noo.......) or start saving for having this done properly.

      Really gutted, as I thought it can be done quickly and cheaply enough. Right now car drives great again - turbo spools up quicker and you can feel car pulls better and without the obnoxious noise.

      Is there any other ideas you might have that are less drastic than dropping the engine or removing the head, having in mind that you need full access to all nuts/studs to properly drill them out, so no half-measures? If not, whats the procedure for taking the engine out on this model? Goes from the top, bottom or what? (asking from curiosity as taking the engine out for me is comparable with NASA's space probe launch).

      thanks
      Nightmare, can't think of a way to manage this without doing something radical - I think you're gonna have to do it the hard way. But, I'd assume that it'd be easier to lift the engine up (but not out) of the engine bay to gain enough access to the studs to do the work. I suppose if you're disconnecting the engine completely, though, easier to drop it on the subframe.
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    26. #59
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      Quote Originally Posted by mercdude View Post
      Nightmare, can't think of a way to manage this without doing something radical - I think you're gonna have to do it the hard way. But, I'd assume that it'd be easier to lift the engine up (but not out) of the engine bay to gain enough access to the studs to do the work. I suppose if you're disconnecting the engine completely, though, easier to drop it on the subframe.
      Gotcha. So either lift it up just to gain access or fully down trough bottom. Either way a LOT of job involved, Id imagine... :/
      Yep, sounds bad to me either way, just need to digest it a little bit and decide what to do and how to tackle this.
      thanks
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    27. #60
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      Yeah, not a cheap repair. Any clue as to why/how the studs were that rusted - were the exhaust shield and engine pan off the car???
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    28. #61
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      I guess if your down pipe bolts are bad then your manifold studs and nuts will be pretty nasty too.
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    29. #62
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      My plan is to use a welder. Weld nuts onto any broken studs and then wind them out. The shot of heat from the welder works wonders getting stuck studs out of aluminum heads. If the first couple don't go well, I'll probably zap each one before even trying to loosen it.

      I haven't actually tried this plan yet, so I don't exactly know if there's enough room to get a welder in there with enough accuracy to pull it off. Plan B would be to remove the torque mount and loosen the other motor mounts. Try to flop the engine forward a bit to make some room.
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    30. #63
      If you fully take Turbo/manifold (take off wastegate before trying to take out) and part of exhaust - from under you have a bit of room, might get a short arc rod in there.
      that's non awd btw

    31. #64
      Quote Originally Posted by mercdude View Post
      Nightmare, can't think of a way to manage this without doing something radical - I think you're gonna have to do it the hard way. But, I'd assume that it'd be easier to lift the engine up (but not out) of the engine bay to gain enough access to the studs to do the work. I suppose if you're disconnecting the engine completely, though, easier to drop it on the subframe.
      No need to lift or drop anything... Just pull the head. You take off the motor mount in pulling the timing belt anyway, take out the airbox and there is enough play to pull it out without touching the exhaust.

      Then deal with it on the bench, or find a used head, it can be from anything 2.4i even they are all the same; just keep your cams & solenoids, replace the seals etc.

      Quote Originally Posted by walky_talky20 View Post
      My plan is to use a welder. Weld nuts onto any broken studs and then wind them out. The shot of heat from the welder works wonders getting stuck studs out of aluminum heads. If the first couple don't go well, I'll probably zap each one before even trying to loosen it.

      I haven't actually tried this plan yet, so I don't exactly know if there's enough room to get a welder in there with enough accuracy to pull it off. Plan B would be to remove the torque mount and loosen the other motor mounts. Try to flop the engine forward a bit to make some room.
      There's no way your getting a MIG torch in there to tack on to the studs in place with any sort of accuracy. Maybe if you cut down a stick and were very careful, but fuel lines are all right there. Seriously if there's stuff broke off in there, just pull the head.
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    32. #65
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      Quote Originally Posted by theshadow27 View Post
      No need to lift or drop anything... Just pull the head. You take off the motor mount in pulling the timing belt anyway, take out the airbag and there is enough play to pull it out without touching the exhaust.

      Then deal with it on the bench, or find a used head, it can be from anything 2.4i even they are all the same; just keep your cams & solenoids, replace the seals etc.
      .
      Thats another suggestion they had as alternative to dropping the engine, but they were adamant it is the less adviceable route and prefer to do the engine drop/pull out. BTW - the airbag? what do you mean?

      mercdude - no, heatshield is there and engine tray is present. I am not sure if thats related to climate here (rain rain and more rain) or the abuse the manifold took for those years when heating up to insane temperatures but I was told that some of the studs were "snapping off like matchsticks".

      Walky_talky - I am pretty sure that you wont be able to comfortably fit the cigarette lighter there, let alone welder, especially that you have AWD as I do. Have seen the "operational space" they were working with (literally using mirrors and lamp) and just feel sorry for them.

      stupid manifold... ;(
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    33. #66
      Quote Originally Posted by LizardOfBodom View Post
      Thats another suggestion they had as alternative to dropping the engine, but they were adamant it is the less adviceable route and prefer to do the engine drop/pull out. BTW - the airbag? what do you mean?
      That was airbox - autocorrect fail.

      Did they say why they didn't want to pull the head? If you have all the parts in advance, it really is a one-day thing with no engine lift required. Pulling the engine means messing with the drive train, exhaust, brakes, power steering, the AC (!), heater core & radiator, tons of connectors, all the vacuum lines, etc etc.

      The head is just a few belts, one fuel line, and one harness. Need to replace head gasket, head bolts, exhaust gasket, studs nuts and washers, helicoil kit if they've messed up the threads, o-rings for plugs and CVVT solenoids, cam front and back seals, liquid gasket for the cover, and the upper PCV hose if it's shot. Really, not too bad... Under $300 if you can re-use the head. If you are near the service interval, it is a good time to replace timing belt, tensioners, and water pump while you're in there. Also gives you a chance to clean out the nasty oil crud in the cam passages, and clean the carbon deposits off the cylinders.

      Some friends and I were able to swap heads in two weekends, I'm sure a well equipped shop could do it in a day.

      Quote Originally Posted by LizardOfBodom View Post

      mercdude - no, heatshield is there and engine tray is present. I am not sure if thats related to climate here (rain rain and more rain) or the abuse the manifold took for those years when heating up to insane temperatures but I was told that some of the studs were "snapping off like matchsticks".
      Is your hood weather stripping intact? There really shouldn't be that much water getting in...

      I am curious what happened to the cover - I think it might serve an important function to reduce airflow over the studs (humid air + movement + hot metal = rust)
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    34. #67
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      Quote Originally Posted by theshadow27 View Post
      That was airbox - autocorrect fail.

      Did they say why they didn't want to pull the head? If you have all the parts in advance, it really is a one-day thing with no engine lift required. Pulling the engine means messing with the drive train, exhaust, brakes, power steering, the AC (!), heater core & radiator, tons of connectors, all the vacuum lines, etc etc.

      The head is just a few belts, one fuel line, and one harness. Need to replace head gasket, head bolts, exhaust gasket, studs nuts and washers, helicoil kit if they've messed up the threads, o-rings for plugs and CVVT solenoids, cam front and back seals, liquid gasket for the cover, and the upper PCV hose if it's shot. Really, not too bad... Under $300 if you can re-use the head. If you are near the service interval, it is a good time to replace timing belt, tensioners, and water pump while you're in there. Also gives you a chance to clean out the nasty oil crud in the cam passages, and clean the carbon deposits off the cylinders.

      Some friends and I were able to swap heads in two weekends, I'm sure a well equipped shop could do it in a day.



      Is your hood weather stripping intact? There really shouldn't be that much water getting in...

      I am curious what happened to the cover - I think it might serve an important function to reduce airflow over the studs (humid air + movement + hot metal = rust)
      No , I think you misread this - the heatshield IS there, so is engine undertray and weather strip under the bonnet (hood is what we wear here :PP ). No idea what part of problem the enviroment caused and what - the general use of the car. Main problem is I bought car year ago with 93k miles on it an unknown past, and back then it was already 11 years old. Maybe it stayed somewhere for long period of time, maybe someone abused the engine and heated it more than average - no clue. And maybe its just bad design ane materials, dunno.

      as for head off - not sure why, they didnt really explain saying its less invasive to NOT doing it, but didnt really spent much time talking about it. If I cross that bridge I will be sure to double check with them the action plan and decide on what to do. I get your point about disconnecting the engine/trans - it does sound like nightmare...

      thanks for all feedback, good to have options and opinions to choose from!
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      Removing the head is the simpler way to go, but it's also more invasive. You've got to make sure you get the head torqued right, redo the timing, replace gaskets/seals, have the head hold-down tools, etc, etc. Versus the engine drop which is just undoing bolts (okay, a lot of bolts). The time is the probably about the same between the two strategies: the effort to drop the engine is a lot but to r/r a head means a lot of careful work. The head r/r does mean you have some opportunities though - replace valve seals, thorough cleaning and you've almost got a new engine. Of course, as soon as you do that you've got to check valve clearances, which adds time to the job and is also delicate work. I swear, most shops nowadays are either lazy or incapable of doing these types of jobs. Last time I was quoted for a head r/r by a volvo indy shop, it was upwards of $4k - I got the drift that they didn't want to do the job.
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      Quote Originally Posted by mercdude View Post
      Removing the head is the simpler way to go, but it's also more invasive. You've got to make sure you get the head torqued right, redo the timing, replace gaskets/seals, have the head hold-down tools, etc, etc. Versus the engine drop which is just undoing bolts (okay, a lot of bolts). The time is the probably about the same between the two strategies: the effort to drop the engine is a lot but to r/r a head means a lot of careful work. The head r/r does mean you have some opportunities though - replace valve seals, thorough cleaning and you've almost got a new engine. Of course, as soon as you do that you've got to check valve clearances, which adds time to the job and is also delicate work. I swear, most shops nowadays are either lazy or incapable of doing these types of jobs. Last time I was quoted for a head r/r by a volvo indy shop, it was upwards of $4k - I got the drift that they didn't want to do the job.
      Wow.... thats... a.... LOT... :-0
      well, my guys said its all possible and they ok to undertake this , its just a car in workshop for atleast a week (not being worked on 100% of time obviously) and around 800eur of labour.... :/
      Wouldnt say they tried to discourage me, rather than fairly warn
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    37. #70
      Lol there is a lot of pessimism going around here... Please don't give up on this car! It's really not as scary as it's being made out to sound:

      Quote Originally Posted by mercdude View Post
      You've got to make sure you get the head torqued right,
      And you don't need to torque the drivetrain bolts? If a shop doesn't have the $5 angle readout you probably should look elsewhere...

      Quote Originally Posted by mercdude View Post
      redo the timing,
      You mean, mark the teeth on three sprockets?

      Quote Originally Posted by mercdude View Post
      replace gaskets/seals,
      Not exactly rocket science. The hardest part is removing the old chem gasket, and if you have a parts washer even that is easy.

      Quote Originally Posted by mercdude View Post
      have the head hold-down tools, etc, etc.
      The set is $50 set on eBay

      Quote Originally Posted by mercdude View Post
      Versus the engine drop which is just undoing bolts (okay, a lot of bolts).
      All the bolts... And connectors. A LOT of connectors. 11 year old brittle plastic connectors with 11 year old brittle insulation. And hoses and lines and fluids and refrigerant...

      Check out VIDA... you've got to remove the battery, air cleaner, accessory belts, torque rod, subframe, down pipe and cat, driveshafts, prop shaft, fog lights, starter power wires, 8 ground straps, vacuum lines, dipstick (needs new o-ring) coolant lines, transmission cables, clutch hydraulics, heater hoses, vacuum lines, coolant reservoir, AC compressor and lines, engine mounts (3x) then you can lower it out the bottom.

      If the exhaust manifold studs are falling apart, the last thing I would want to do is any of the above...

      Quote Originally Posted by mercdude View Post
      The time is the probably about the same between the two strategies: the effort to drop the engine is a lot but to r/r a head means a lot of careful work. The head r/r does mean you have some opportunities though - replace valve seals, thorough cleaning and you've almost got a new engine. Of course, as soon as you do that you've got to check valve clearances, which adds time to the job and is also delicate work.
      The valve seals are cast-in, non-replaceable, self-cleaning. Not worth lapping (unless they are loosing compression awful).

      With hydraulic return OHV, clearances only really matter if you are tuning for maximum power - any wear just reduces your maximum lift. For a DD they are irrelevant, especially with turbo.

      Just number the tappets as you take them out. Probably no need to even the valves/springs for cleaning.

      Quote Originally Posted by mercdude View Post
      I swear, most shops nowadays are either lazy or incapable of doing these types of jobs. Last time I was quoted for a head r/r by a volvo indy shop, it was upwards of $4k - I got the drift that they didn't want to do the job.
      Now this I agree with, shops these days are lazy because most people replace their cars without doing any major maintenance. I was quoted $7k from a Volvo dealership to replace the head, $3k in labor and $4k in parts because they wouldn't use a salvaged one.

      But if you've found a shop that will do it for under 1k EUR, go for it. And do the timing belt if it hasn't been replaced. The rest of the car will last for a long time, and they don't make cars like these any more! Save her!
      '05 S40 T5 AWD M66 sport/winter/ew. Michelin PS A/S+. 6000k 50w HID low/HIR1 high/full LED conversions. RiCA SW. Evoelate intake. IPD rear sway, skidplate, TCV.
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