Exhaust manifold gasked (squealing issue) job - few questions - Page 3
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    1. #71
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      Quote Originally Posted by theshadow27 View Post
      With hydraulic return OHV, clearances only really matter if you are tuning for maximum power - any wear just reduces your maximum lift. For a DD they are irrelevant, especially with turbo.
      Unless you like to hear valve slap i.e. diesel (I don't), I'd have those valve adjusted. Maybe irrelevant as far as performance is concerned, but man is it annoying to hear. But I didn't realize the valve seals were cast - that really sucks. That's why Volvo just replaces cylinder heads - they are (essentially) unserviceable.

      With that all said, you get why a shop would say popping the head off is more invasive - right? It requires skill to get set correctly again. It doesn't require as much skill to just unplug/unbolt everything.
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    3. #72
      Quote Originally Posted by mercdude View Post
      Unless you like to hear valve slap i.e. diesel (I don't), I'd have those valve adjusted. Maybe irrelevant as far as performance is concerned, but man is it annoying to hear. But I didn't realize the valve seals were cast - that really sucks. That's why Volvo just replaces cylinder heads - they are (essentially) unserviceable.

      With that all said, you get why a shop would say popping the head off is more invasive - right? It requires skill to get set correctly again. It doesn't require as much skill to just unplug/unbolt everything.
      So the only adjustment is ordering new lifters - there are no shims or clips or anything else. The lifters have different thicknesses to account for cam wear. Personally, I find the pleasantly mechanical tap tap tap of cold lifters in the morning relaxing Now the acceleration-dependent farting cicada sound from a loose manifold, that's downright infuriating.

      The main issue isn't so much the complexity, it's the potential to break stuff that's connected. I agree that servicing a head takes more skill than dropping the block, but not that it's more invasive - actually I'd argue that it's the opposite. So many different systems are connected across/through/around the engine, while the head is pretty much just sitting on top.

      Yes, the B5254 head is more complicated than most (40-something cover bolts, and chem gasket) but torque-to-yeild, OHV, VVT is pretty much standard these days. Any mechanic worth his salt should, if he takes is time and has access to VIDA, be able to confidently do it - not saying that they'd want to.

      Oh and also, should the studs be rusted solid and refuse to be extracted after drilling/welding/cussing, you've already got the head off when the salvage one comes in
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    4. #73
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      Quote Originally Posted by theshadow27 View Post
      ...
      Check out VIDA... you've got to remove the battery, air cleaner, accessory belts, torque rod, subframe, down pipe and cat, driveshafts, prop shaft, fog lights, starter power wires, 8 ground straps, vacuum lines, dipstick (needs new o-ring) coolant lines, transmission cables, clutch hydraulics, heater hoses, vacuum lines, coolant reservoir, AC compressor and lines, engine mounts (3x) then you can lower it out the bottom.
      ...
      Holy halapenos... :-O
      you are talking to someone who's biggest mechanical achievement was taking out the throttle body (after 2nd attempt :P ) so pardon my jaw drop...

      I understand implications of both approaches and will defo direct them to this thread if/when I decide to go ahead with it. Maybe reading this will make them reconsider the approach, its ultimately up to them, I can only provide the info and parts.

      Just for me to understand it better - if going for the head do I NEED to source used head from T5/2.4i in any state and have it re-shimmed beforehand, or it is ok to re-use the head I have after having it remanufactured? Is that something that has to be decided before the job or depends-on-factors?

      Not really planning on giving up on my car, one thing is I feel really attached to it, another is that I have spent more on parts&upgrades than on the car itself already so it feels like car half its age. Buying anything different now will be going back to square one with unknown issues and parts to change so its "Lizard quality approved". I just got scared a bit with all this "engine out/head out" and perspective of something that for me is like open-heart surgery, and the unexpected cost of having it done.
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    6. #74
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      I found some pictures of my situation. It isn't the outside studs that broke, it is the 2 just inboard of that.



      This was my temp fix, just slapping 2 nuts on there. Quieted it down for a couple months. Then I retightened them and got a little bit more. Now it's screaming again.
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    7. #75
      Quote Originally Posted by LizardOfBodom View Post
      Just for me to understand it better - if going for the head do I NEED to source used head from T5/2.4i in any state and have it re-shimmed beforehand, or it is ok to re-use the head I have after having it remanufactured? Is that something that has to be decided before the job or depends-on-factors?
      If your studs are anything like wak_talky20's in the picture above, than you don't need to find another head, it will be pretty simple to fix once it's out. Again, if the aluminum threads strip when extracting what's left of the rusted studs, then it just takes a helicoil kit to put new threads in that are stronger than the originals. In fact, many tuners heli *all* the exhaust threads preemptively for increased strength (though I wouldn't recommend this...). The only reason you'd need a new head is if they bunged really up the extraction by trying to drill in-place and the hole ended up way off center. As long as it's close, there are oversized inserts that will take care of things.

      I'd also avoid having the shop try to re-gap the valves, this takes an extremely specific tool and access to various thicknesses of Volvo lifters. These will all be special order, cost a lot, and take forever to arrive, for very little benefit at such low millage.

      The timing belt suggestion comes from personal experience at 83,000 miles... It's just a suggestion. Over here a timing belt kit costs around $150.

      In the US anyway, you can get the entire head gasket set for $190, or less if you buy the parts individually at Tasca. Not sure about IE. Then you need 12 head bolts, they are one-time-use, that's $80-100 depending on where you get them. If the shop works on Volvos, they should have some already, but if not you'll need a tube of chem gasket for around $40 (IPD is overpriced but has nice pictures!). Obviously you'll want to get a full complement of new studs, and replace any washers that were lost. It's probably not a bad idea to have the universal Volvo turbo gasket kit ($12) on hand in case the sump starts leaking after being jostled around. Everything else can be re-used with out any trouble. All of this should be had easily for less than 400 euro...

      Most of these parts have generic and OEM versions (the OEM is more expensive), this is a personal choice... I am willing to pay a little more for the OEM but in theory the aftermarket is just as good. I would stick with an OEM timing belt though.

      Tools... The shop should have an torque+angle gauge, but if not they aren't expensive. If they don't have the cam hold-down set, literally search "volvo tool" on eBay, there are tons of them for $50. Don't bother with trying to lock the crank, just work off the timing marks on the cam sprockets and use a paint pen to mark the belt/teeth when at TDC on #1. If you do replace the timing belt, transfer the marks over to the new belt.

      I went ahead and did plugs ($60) and accessory belts (ac and alternator) for about $15 because they come off during the process and were original to the car. None of this is necessary if it has been done recently.

      Hope this helps
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    8. #76
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      Quote Originally Posted by walky_talky20 View Post
      I found some pictures of my situation. It isn't the outside studs that broke, it is the 2 just inboard of that.



      This was my temp fix, just slapping 2 nuts on there. Quieted it down for a couple months. Then I retightened them and got a little bit more. Now it's screaming again.
      Oh man, you're in luck!!! There's enough threads on there that you when you push the exhaust manifold away from the head, you can double-nut the stud and back it out. Then, just install a new stud. Super easy!

      Give yourself a lot of time on this one - soak the studs in penetrating oil for a few days, maybe even a week if you can manage without an auto for that long. If necessary you could come in with a micro butane torch and heat up the studs before you try to back it out. Try all that first before you drop the engine or pull the head. lucky lucky lucky.
      Last edited by mercdude; 06-14-2017 at 02:18 PM.
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    9. #77
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      [QUOTE=LizardOfBodom;5530881Just for me to understand it better - if going for the head do I NEED to source used head from T5/2.4i in any state and have it re-shimmed beforehand, or it is ok to re-use the head I have after having it remanufactured? Is that something that has to be decided before the job or depends-on-factors? [/QUOTE]

      No, you do not need a new (used) head to do this. You could have the head resurfaced (machined) flat to make sure it's even on the block, but because it hasn't overheated that's most likely overkill and any small variance between block and head will be taken up by the headgasket.

      Btw, I'm not sure the 2.4i and 2.5 heads are the same. Without more evidence, I think I would be very cautious on that one.
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    10. #78
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      Cylinder heads are NOT the same. The upper portion (valve cover as it were) is machined along with the head itself. Turbo has two VVTs, NA only one. NA S5 has a single cam sensor while the S7 has 2. So... none are interchangeable without machine shop work.
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    11. #79
      Quote Originally Posted by pczeilon View Post
      Cylinder heads are NOT the same. The upper portion (valve cover as it were) is machined along with the head itself. Turbo has two VVTs, NA only one. NA S5 has a single cam sensor while the S7 has 2. So... none are interchangeable without machine shop work.
      Um, yes they are - I put a 2.4i head on my T5. There are blank plates for the unused cam sensor and unused VVT. You move your cams+sprockets, your VVT solenoids, and your sensors over to the other head, it all fits... I promise.

      The cover must (should?) stay with the head, but otherwise they are identical.
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    12. #80
      At the time, the scariest thing I'd ever seen



      Looking back, really not so bad
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    13. #81
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      You are correct. The "head" portion is identical. The cover is not.

      During production the two pieces are bolted together while the camshaft journals are machined & then separated for assembly. Thus, the two need to stay together to assure there is no mismatch in the camshaft machining. It's like taking the main bearing saddles & swapping between two Chevy 350s. You'll notice Volvo doesn't sell these pieces separately. With modern automated equipment & such I'm sure the variance between parts is much smaller than the old days but you would need to check this very carefully.
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    14. #82
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      Just reread your post. You found a head with plates covering the already machined VVT & sensor holes? Great find if you did! Not all heads will be this way. Have a good look before you commit.
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    15. #83
      Quote Originally Posted by pczeilon View Post
      Just reread your post. You found a head with plates covering the already machined VVT & sensor holes? Great find if you did! Not all heads will be this way. Have a good look before you commit.
      Yes there were cover plates/plugs over the unused, already machined holes and passages. The VVT plug was included the o-rings, like it was the bottom half of the solenoid.

      I was under the impression that they were all like that. I got the head from cbv1, who can verify what car it came off of. If you've got a 2.4i and want to pull the plastic off you can check.

      It doesn't make sense for them to track otherwise identical heads into two separate supply chains to save drilling two holes. Blocks/heads/pans are usually cast and finished at the same location. For best economy of scale, they should all be the same. Turbo/NA is determined at the time of assembly.
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    16. #84
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      Quote Originally Posted by theshadow27 View Post
      ....
      I went ahead and did plugs ($60) and accessory belts (ac and alternator) for about $15 because they come off during the process and were original to the car. None of this is necessary if it has been done recently.

      Hope this helps
      Cool, thanks for this! Nice "shopping list", all in one go. As for timing & aux belts - all of those were changed in Volvo dealership 28k miles ago (exactly 2 years) so I think this can be left as is. All other parts - as you stated - most likely will order OEM if needed, especially that some parts so far actually were cheaper in dealership than in volvo online store even... weirdly.

      Anyway - from this topic and all comments you can actually build pretty nice "engine drop vs head out" case with all valid pro and cons and part list so thank you all again for participation, it will be great help when deciding the course of action.
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    17. #85
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      Quote Originally Posted by theshadow27 View Post
      Yes there were cover plates/plugs over the unused, already machined holes and passages. The VVT plug was included the o-rings, like it was the bottom half of the solenoid.

      I was under the impression that they were all like that. I got the head from cbv1, who can verify what car it came off of. If you've got a 2.4i and want to pull the plastic off you can check.

      It doesn't make sense for them to track otherwise identical heads into two separate supply chains to save drilling two holes. Blocks/heads/pans are usually cast and finished at the same location. For best economy of scale, they should all be the same. Turbo/NA is determined at the time of assembly.
      You just went down the rabbit hole. Yes, it makes sense to have identical machining, if the engines were made/assembled in the same location. But your point is made - it's surprising to me that the 2.4i and t5 even have identical (lower) cylinder heads. I mean, in build spec they are much different engines though they share a lot of commonalities in dimension. Seems to me that the engineering difference between a turbo and NA engine would need (require?) different port designs and valves. I guess not.
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    18. #86
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      Quote Originally Posted by theshadow27 View Post
      At the time, the scariest thing I'd ever seen



      Looking back, really not so bad
      How many miles were on the engine at the time and how'd the cylinder walls look?
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    19. #87
      You can do it. Scariest concept when working on this car is the fact that you might forget how to put it back together, or miss something on the reassemble that requires you to undo some of your work.
      In all seriousness, I had very little experience the first time I tore down an engine inside a body...if you have questions, post them as you go and myself and others can share the theoretical "you're supposed to do this" and the actual "if you do this there's not much that can happen" and get it back together.

      I did however clearly need a 3' cheater pipe on the end of my 18" breaker bar as the bolts in my head were WAY overtightened. And I needed a 14mm narrow air socket that fit into the headbolt holes with approx .001 or .0001" of clearance in the walls and a 3" extension. I ended up having to bounce the engine and take advantage of the reverse torque provided by it in conjuction with my 3' cheater pipe to get the last one out. Hopefully yours will require less work since it was probably not rebuilt by LKQ.

      You can do it. If you don't want to do this, I suggest you do the doublenut strategy mentioned earlier and just push the exhaust away from the studs and replace them, only pulling the head if some of the head threads come out with the studs...but that's me.
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    20. #88
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      Without the 'benefits' of putting in new valve seats, etc., and rebuilding the head, there's very few good reasons to pull the head.

      But, on a side note, how hard is it to reinstall the 'upper' cylinder head / check valve lash? Those damn noisy lifters are driving me nuts.
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    21. #89
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      Too bad OP isn't in the US. This seems pretty cheap.

      https://sacramento.craigslist.org/pts/6177973933.html
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    22. #90
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      Hm, that's in town for me..... Dibbs!!!
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    23. #91
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      Wow $80!
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    24. #92
      Quote Originally Posted by mercdude View Post
      How many miles were on the engine at the time and how'd the cylinder walls look?
      That was at 84k miles. Cylinder walls were perfect. Made good compression with the new head.

      Quote Originally Posted by avenger09123 View Post
      You can do it. Scariest concept when working on this car is the fact that you might forget how to put it back together, or miss something on the reassemble that requires you to undo some of your work.
      +1 You can do it!

      Quote Originally Posted by mercdude View Post
      Without the 'benefits' of putting in new valve seats, etc., and rebuilding the head, there's very few good reasons to pull the head.

      But, on a side note, how hard is it to reinstall the 'upper' cylinder head / check valve lash? Those damn noisy lifters are driving me nuts.
      Unless you've broken off several exhaust studs....

      If you have the cam hold down tool, not hard at all. There's like 44 bolts or something and a specific pattern on VIDA. The main thing is scraping all the chem gasket off, which is I wouldn't recommend doing it in place other than that it'd be very difficult to not have little bits fall down into the actual head and then on into the engine, where they can easily stop up the important bits that should be flowing oil. If you've got the whole head off, you can very easily blow out the passages with compressed air/solvent. Checking lash... Theres a special tool (obviously) and a crazy procedure: You have to find the tiny marking that indicates which lifter is installed, and add that to the thickness of the gauge that fits, then subtract some constant, then order a new lifter that meets that spec. 20 times. Fun.

      Quote Originally Posted by V50toS40 View Post
      Too bad OP isn't in the US. This seems pretty cheap.

      https://sacramento.craigslist.org/pts/6177973933.html
      So that 2.4i head has both CPS installed (red), but only one VVT solenoid. In the second pic you can kinda see the blank plate I was talking about (blue):

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    25. #93
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      Quote Originally Posted by V50toS40 View Post
      Too bad OP isn't in the US. This seems pretty cheap.

      https://sacramento.craigslist.org/pts/6177973933.html
      Wow its like 70 Eur, bargain!
      If shipment cost me less than 1 kidney it might be worth it :P

      (out of curiosity how much this thing weight?)
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    26. #94
      Quote Originally Posted by LizardOfBodom View Post
      (out of curiosity how much this thing weight?)
      Probably 40kg when packed in a wooden crate for shipping, so it depends on what your kidneys are worth
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    27. #95
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      Quote Originally Posted by theshadow27 View Post
      Probably 40kg when packed in a wooden crate for shipping, so it depends on what your kidneys are worth
      After this weekend, probably much less ;P

      In all seriousness - its a lot so intercontinental shipment for such item wont make sense. If I need to source any, I suppose onlu EU is an option.
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