Polestar as a brand with own electric sport cars
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    1. #1

      Polestar as a brand with own electric sport cars

      As it is mentioned in the title, the "AutoExpress" presents some rumours about possible direction of Polestar development: http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/volvo/9...ic-sports-cars

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    3. #2
      Only natural given the direction of the new platform and the T8 engine setup. The only downside is that this will move the price of the Polestar engineered models up even further, but it will be a fast car. Near 400HP out of the Drive-E + 150HP or so out of the electric engines in the rear will make for an interesting vehicle.

    4. #3
      Quote Originally Posted by mchart View Post
      Only natural given the direction of the new platform and the T8 engine setup. The only downside is that this will move the price of the Polestar engineered models up even further, but it will be a fast car. Near 400HP out of the Drive-E + 150HP or so out of the electric engines in the rear will make for an interesting vehicle.
      Polestar engineered models based on the current Volvo line up wont appear anymore, certainly anytime soon.

      They are taking a different direction.

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    6. #4
      Quote Originally Posted by After_Shock View Post
      Polestar engineered models based on the current Volvo line up wont appear anymore, certainly anytime soon.

      They are taking a different direction.
      So there will be no more powerful Volvo than the current models?

    7. #5
      Quote Originally Posted by After_Shock View Post
      Polestar engineered models based on the current Volvo line up wont appear anymore, certainly anytime soon.

      They are taking a different direction.
      Understand that they want to build different cars, things comparable to Porsche. However I think the platform should still be SPA, aka new S60 based. Maybe still good to offer some lower priced S60 Polestar cars. But who knows. Maybe they want to build cars that can be branded as Polestar and also Lotus.

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    8. #6
      Quote Originally Posted by goVolvo View Post
      Understand that they want to build different cars, things comparable to Porsche. However I think the platform should still be SPA, aka new S60 based. Maybe still good to offer some lower priced S60 Polestar cars. But who knows. Maybe they want to build cars that can be branded as Polestar and also Lotus.

      Sent from my SD4930UR using Tapatalk
      I don't take this announcement as anything different. I find it very hard to believe Volvo/Polestar would sell Polestar vehicles as it's own thing. The obvious move forward is the S60/V60 on the new platform w/ a combined 500~HP T8 engine setup.

    9. #7
      Quote Originally Posted by mchart View Post
      I don't take this announcement as anything different. I find it very hard to believe Volvo/Polestar would sell Polestar vehicles as it's own thing. The obvious move forward is the S60/V60 on the new platform w/ a combined 500~HP T8 engine setup.
      I'd like they make the body significant different (in sporty way) for Polestar model. If a car has 500HP, it deserves to be striking on road, not a family sedan look. The branding is less of concern but if Volvo stands for safety, it makes sense to use Polestar for roadsters.

    10. #8
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      Quote Originally Posted by mchart View Post
      I don't take this announcement as anything different. I find it very hard to believe Volvo/Polestar would sell Polestar vehicles as it's own thing. The obvious move forward is the S60/V60 on the new platform w/ a combined 500~HP T8 engine setup.
      You need to reread the article. You missed every point in it. They will be selling separate vehicles, not based on Volvo cars, sold as Polestar and they will be EV's. Here is another article saying the same, https://www.carthrottle.com/post/pol...ves-this-year/
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    11. #9
      Quote Originally Posted by P50GT View Post
      You need to reread the article. You missed every point in it. They will be selling separate vehicles, not based on Volvo cars, sold as Polestar and they will be EV's. Here is another article saying the same, https://www.carthrottle.com/post/pol...ves-this-year/
      No, I didn't miss it. They are turning it into an AMG as the article states. AMG does not sell AMG's through an AMG dealership. They sell AMG built vehicles largely based off MB main-line vehicles at a MB dealership and the make of the car is still considered MB.

      It makes absolutely no sense to create Polestar as a separate make due to regulatory related costs. This is why AMG/M/RS/Polestar will always remain functionally under their mother brand/make.

      From the article itself - "Volvo’s new SPA (Scalable Product Architecture) and CMA (Compact Modular Architecture) platform technology will be used for a new generation of hot Polestars with an electric, SPA-based car likely to break cover first, some time this year. The SPA platform underpins the Volvo XC60 and XC90 SUVs as well as the V90 estate and S90 saloon models."

      Next Polestar badged Volvo will be the new S60/V60 or S90/V90 w/ a tuned T8 setup making around 500hp. They aren't going to re-invent the wheel here.
      Last edited by mchart; 06-15-2017 at 09:11 PM.

    12. #10
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      The Porsche 918 is an incredible car, but just imagine how incredible it would have been if it were 800 lbs lighter (sans batteries) and half the cost?

      Call me old fashioned, but batteries are heavy and don't mix well with fire, so seem largely out of place in a sports (sporting?) car.

      Then again, 20 gallons of 100octane is also pretty heavy and doesn't play well with fire...

      Seems like the prosperous path for polestar would have been to have brought any of the cars they already developed to production (C30 AWD, 2013 S60 500hp, 2016 Nurburgring record breaker) rather than trying to cut gemissions by .00000000000001% by shifting development to a model the vast majority of enthusiasts aren't onboard with.

      Heck a V40 with the polestar-optimized (not even engineered) T6, some decent brakes, shocks and a 6mt (a la Mazdaspeed 3) would be a fine car indeed and all the parts are available off the shelf (except maybe the manual trans?).

      Seems like virtue signaling is a notch or two higher than motorsports (or even sporty motors) on the priority list.
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    13. #11
      Even though I wouldn't buy one, mostly because this will shift the price point up to the $70-80k range - A V60 with 370HP from the Drive-E up front, and another 150hp in the rear from the two electric motors is going to make for a fairly decent vehicle. Also keep in mind that while some weight will be gained by batteries - The new platform is lighter as it is, and they loose the weight of needing the driveshaft/rear differential for the AWD setup as AWD is achieved by the two electric motors in the rear.

      With the broad torque band that the twincharged Drive-E delivers as is, and the instant torque of the rear electric engines it will make for a very fun vehicle if executed correctly.

      I don't really see this as virtue signaling. I think electric engines are developed enough to the point that Volvo's route with the T8 drivetrain setup is the perfect utilization of ICE+Electric. A Polestar tuned T8 setup making around 500hp is going to be killer on a new lighter platform.

    14. #12
      Current Polestar S60/V60 does not sell much, the reason is not about horsepower.
      Polestar car needs a striking style and handling. horsepower wise it is actually quite good, and entry level SPA Polestar can start from the stock 400HP T8 easily. Higher level could be around 500HP. And if that triple turbo 450HP ICE is added to production, 600HP is also possible.

      However it is not about horsepower. I don't see Polestar will chase those 800HP+ supercars like Ford GT, Corvette, Nissan GTR, LaFerrari, Porsche 918 Spyder, McLaren P1, etc.

      Also EV sports car is just expensive toy. You cannot race and run long trip with it. R8 e-tron, AMG E-Cell, BMW i8, they are all just symbolic cars. How many do they sell? Tesla sells a lot, but not as a sport car.

    15. #13
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      ^ This!

      Volvo/Polestar is entirely capable of building a Mazdaspeed 3 or E46 BMW M3 type vehicle (mostly) with off the shelf parts. Keep it light, simple, build in the outstanding volvo safety (which I know adds some weight), and price it at or below an Audi S4, and they'll sell.

      This feels to me like a bit like the new Acura NSX. Cool car? Sure! But how many are actively cross shopping it against a 911, R8 or Ferrari?
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    16. #14
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      A lot of people here seem to be ignorant of what is actually happening in the market right now.

      Quote Originally Posted by goVolvo View Post
      ...Tesla sells a lot, but not as a sport car.
      Tesla's highest selling model is the Model S P100D, which is the quickest accelerating vehicle available for sale on the market, period. It has a center of gravity equal to that of the McLaren 650S. It has amazing traction in any condition. It just happens to also be a large Luxury Sedan. Is an M5 not a Sports Car? It's not a track car but that's not what a Sports car is. Most people use their sports cars for nothing more than accelerating from stoplight to stoplight with occasional canyon drives if possible. A car with a low CG and instant torque of an E-Motor is perfect for this.

      Quote Originally Posted by NorthwestMoose View Post
      ^ This!

      Volvo/Polestar is entirely capable of building a Mazdaspeed 3 or E46 BMW M3 type vehicle (mostly) with off the shelf parts. Keep it light, simple, build in the outstanding volvo safety (which I know adds some weight), and price it at or below an Audi S4, and they'll sell.
      Three things on this. The first is that Mazaspeed3's sell very poorly, so do you really want to copy that model? The second is that they also drive like complete crap, so again do you really want to follow that model? The way to go straight when accelerating in a Mazspeed 3 is to crank the wheel a quarter turn to the left as the car is going to torque steer wildly to the right. Finally, this is a full class below the S4, so to be priced the same as it would ensure you sell none.

      Here is the reality of the market. Every single major company is not only building EV's but building performance minded EV's. Either Volvo/P* gets ahead of the game or they continue this pattern where they are playing catch-up and making excuses that they are too small to compete. The real thing that should be worrying about this is that no new hires with an expertise in EV powertrains has been hired to support this.
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    17. #15
      Quote Originally Posted by P50GT View Post
      A lot of people here seem to be ignorant of what is actually happening in the market right now.



      Tesla's highest selling model is the Model S P100D, which is the quickest accelerating vehicle available for sale on the market, period. It has a
      None of the Tesla buyers I know of is racing guy. Occasional quick acceleration fun? yes; serious racing? no.
      More battery means longer range, and higher power. They probably appreciate the range more than the power.

      How many people want a diehard 600HP+ EV and would reject a 400HP EV? I doubt.
      Last edited by goVolvo; 06-16-2017 at 05:43 PM.

    18. #16
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      Quote Originally Posted by goVolvo View Post
      None of the Tesla buyers I know of is racing guy. Occasional quick acceleration fun? yes; serious racing? no.
      More battery means longer range, and higher power. They probably appreciate the range more than the power.

      How many people want a diehard 600HP+ EV and would reject a 400HP EV? I doubt.
      One thing you have to understand is this is the one subject that I may have a bit more insight than most on here. While you know a few Tesla buyers, I ran the team responsible for configuring the first 12,000+ Model S orders. I personally sold over 75 Tesla Roadsters. I spent 4 years dealing with these customers every single day. I know this market like the back of my hand. You seem to be confusing sports car drivers with racing enthusiasts. My P* has never been raced and will never be raced. You will however find an unlimited amount of Model S drag strip videos if you want to. As I mentioned before, the majority of sports car owners us them to "race" from stoplight to stoplight and to enjoy the occasional weekend drive on a twisty road. There is nothing stopping an EV from doing that as well as or better than an ICE. Taking a Roadster out for a Sunday drive used to be one of my favorite things to do.

      HP itself isn't really meaningful beyond bragging rights but it's the resulting performance that is. The difference between a 400HP and a 600HP car is huge! For example, the Model S 75D has 518HP and goes 0-60 in 5.2 Sec. The P100D, has 760HP, so close to the difference you mentioned and a 0-60 of 2.5!! So you go from a quick but not really car, to the quickest accelerating production car on the planet with the difference of 242HP. To answer your question if people care about this, just look at how much press there is about the P100D and try to find anything about the 75D.
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    19. #17
      Quote Originally Posted by P50GT View Post
      One thing you have to understand is this is the one subject that I may have a bit more insight than most on here. While you know a few Tesla buyers, I ran the team responsible for configuring the first 12,000+ Model S orders. I personally sold over 75 Tesla Roadsters. I spent 4 years dealing with these customers every single day. I know this market like the back of my hand. You seem to be confusing sports car drivers with racing enthusiasts. My P* has never been raced and will never be raced. You will however find an unlimited amount of Model S drag strip videos if you want to. As I mentioned before, the majority of sports car owners us them to "race" from stoplight to stoplight and to enjoy the occasional weekend drive on a twisty road. There is nothing stopping an EV from doing that as well as or better than an ICE. Taking a Roadster out for a Sunday drive used to be one of my favorite things to do.

      HP itself isn't really meaningful beyond bragging rights but it's the resulting performance that is. The difference between a 400HP and a 600HP car is huge! For example, the Model S 75D has 518HP and goes 0-60 in 5.2 Sec. The P100D, has 760HP, so close to the difference you mentioned and a 0-60 of 2.5!! So you go from a quick but not really car, to the quickest accelerating production car on the planet with the difference of 242HP. To answer your question if people care about this, just look at how much press there is about the P100D and try to find anything about the 75D.
      Press is hyped. Since you know tesla numbers, how many of P100D and P90D, P75D are sold?

      How many would like to drive 0-60 in 2.5sec but cannot drive to next state for a trip.

      EV perf cars are same limited vehicle as any other EV cars, unless for those who would like to keep a spare, expensive weekend car.

    20. #18
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      Quote Originally Posted by goVolvo View Post
      Press is hyped. Since you know tesla numbers, how many of P100D and P90D, P75D are sold?

      How many would like to drive 0-60 in 2.5sec but cannot drive to next state for a trip.

      EV perf cars are same limited vehicle as any other EV cars, unless for those who would like to keep a spare, expensive weekend car.
      I'm am no longer at Tesla but I can say with 100% certainty that there are infinitely more P100D sold than P90D and P75D. Reason is that it is the only one available of the 3. The current lineup is 75, 75D, 100D, P100D. The real difference between the 90D and 100D was range, so they just eliminated it. Same thing between the 60 and 75. EV buyers are not really different than any other car buyers. You have your non-Performance people that care about options and range. Then you have your Performance people that don't care about range as much as just care about Performance. The original thought was that the "P" models would make up at most 20% of Sales, then they immediately became the top sellers and have remained so. They delivered 13,450 Model S in Q1 but they don't break down by model.

      You don't understand how people use a real sports car. My P* is pretty tame as far as things go but I have zero desire to take it for a long trip. Reason is that sports cars have Sports Suspensions. They are tuned for handling, not comfort. It gets real old, real quick. Every sports car, whether EV or ICE is a compromise in that department, no way around it. If it's not, then you are most likely compromising in the handling department with a softer Suspension.
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    21. #19
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      Yes, a mazdaspeed (or GTI/ Golf R) equivalent would be priced lower than an M3 equivalent, obviously. GTI's are the benchmark in that segment...there's no reason Volvo couldn't build a better GTI at a comparable price and put a little square (or rhombus :-) ) of Rebel Blue on the trunk.

      Bottom line, I don't think there's too many 17year olds with posters of Model S's on their walls, however fast they may be.

      Volvo already has a Tesla competitor (or two) in their lineup...XC90 T8 and S90 T8 (in theory).

      You don't have to agree, but every time I see a V60 P* in rebel blue, I think...oh WOW, would I love to have THAT!. I have no such interest in Tesla, the BMW i8, etc.

      I'm not interested in the direction Polestar is going and will probably never buy one. I felt the complete opposite about P* 12-18mo ago.
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    22. #20
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      Quote Originally Posted by NorthwestMoose View Post
      Yes, a mazdaspeed (or GTI/ Golf R) equivalent would be priced lower than an M3 equivalent, obviously. GTI's are the benchmark in that segment...there's no reason Volvo couldn't build a better GTI at a comparable price and put a little square (or rhombus :-) ) of Rebel Blue on the trunk.

      Bottom line, I don't think there's too many 17year olds with posters of Model S's on their walls, however fast they may be.

      Volvo already has a Tesla competitor (or two) in their lineup...XC90 T8 and S90 T8 (in theory).

      You don't have to agree, but every time I see a V60 P* in rebel blue, I think...oh WOW, would I love to have THAT!. I have no such interest in Tesla, the BMW i8, etc.

      I'm not interested in the direction Polestar is going and will probably never buy one. I felt the complete opposite about P* 12-18mo ago.
      Volvo has struggled to compete in that segment to this point. We've seen the CMA concepts and none of those are exciting many people nor are they performance oriented.

      Model S isn't intended to appeal to 17 yr olds. Do 17yr olds have posters of Panamera's, RS6's, M5's? No. I bet some may have some of a Rimac Concept One.

      I personally won't know how I feel about everything until something is actually announced and we see an actual car. Until then there is nothing to base it off of. I know this, I wasn't excited about where they were. Having a 4 cylinder Volvo engine only and going a hybrid direction is not exciting to me. I have always said, P* needs to make bespoke ICE or go full EV.
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    23. #21
      The Polestar Drive-E is largely bespoke. Different cams, upgraded rods, larger turbo, upgraded HPFP, I believe a higher flowing water pump, etc. Yeah, it's the same block, but given the modern design of the Drive-E i'm not sure how much better they'd do. Ultimately nearly 400hp out of 2 liters and a fairly wide torque band is impressive.

      I disagree about going full EV. An efficient ICE making decent power coupled with some electric motors is the best setup given the current state of technology.

    24. #22
      Quote Originally Posted by P50GT View Post
      I'm am no longer at Tesla but I can say with 100% certainty that there are infinitely more P100D sold than P90D and P75D. Reason is that it is the only one available of the 3. The current lineup is 75, 75D, 100D, P100D. The real difference between the 90D and 100D was range, so they just eliminated it. Same thing between the 60 and 75. EV buyers are not really different than any other car buyers. You have your non-Performance people that care about options and range. Then you have your Performance people that don't care about range as much as just care about Performance. The original thought was that the "P" models would make up at most 20% of Sales, then they immediately became the top sellers and have remained so. They delivered 13,450 Model S in Q1 but they don't break down by model.

      You don't understand how people use a real sports car. My P* is pretty tame as far as things go but I have zero desire to take it for a long trip. Reason is that sports cars have Sports Suspensions. They are tuned for handling, not comfort. It gets real old, real quick. Every sports car, whether EV or ICE is a compromise in that department, no way around it. If it's not, then you are most likely compromising in the handling department with a softer Suspension.
      Of course I am not that into perf cars, nor have I seen any traffic light racing on road. I think there are more people like my kind than diehard or frequent racing drivers. Reasonably fast and nimble cars with good looking are good enough for me.

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    25. #23
      Quote Originally Posted by goVolvo View Post
      Of course I am not that into perf cars, nor have I seen any traffic light racing on road. I think there are more people like my kind than diehard or frequent racing drivers. Reasonably fast and nimble cars with good looking are good enough for me.

      Sent from my K88 using Tapatalk
      So I think T8 S60 platform is a good enough sporty car to drive, 4.8sec for 0-60.

      The key is it has to be really attractive in looking, 2 door, or convertible. And offer some fancy styling kit. It has to be very different from Volvo style. Be bold, make it something look like Corvette.

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    26. #24
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      Quote Originally Posted by mchart View Post
      The Polestar Drive-E is largely bespoke. Different cams, upgraded rods, larger turbo, upgraded HPFP, I believe a higher flowing water pump, etc. Yeah, it's the same block, but given the modern design of the Drive-E i'm not sure how much better they'd do. Ultimately nearly 400hp out of 2 liters and a fairly wide torque band is impressive.

      I disagree about going full EV. An efficient ICE making decent power coupled with some electric motors is the best setup given the current state of technology.
      Sorry but that is not a Bespoke engine. AMG makes bespoke engines. Their engines are made by AMG and are not found in any MB vehicles. They are not MB engines with a few parts changed.

      You're entitled to your opinion but I think it's pretty clear that a Hybrid is the worst possible solution for a Performance car. Look at the Market. There are a total of 4 Hybrid Performance cars on the Market. 3 cost ~$1MM/each and all of those have 800HP+ without their E-Assist. Well guess what, they are all slower to 60 than the fully EV Model S P100D and slower in the 1/4 mile than the fully EV Rimac. The 4th Hybrid is the much slower NSX, which if you like, you can easily buy because no one wants them. Unlike all of their competitors that have long wait lists, you can get an NSX right away in any market in the US. ICE's have weight advantages over EV's right now. EV's have torque and CG advantages over ICE's. Hybrids have no advantages over anything.

      Quote Originally Posted by goVolvo View Post
      Of course I am not that into perf cars, nor have I seen any traffic light racing on road. I think there are more people like my kind than diehard or frequent racing drivers. Reasonably fast and nimble cars with good looking are good enough for me.
      Sent from my K88 using Tapatalk
      There are an unlimited amount of these videos to be found...


      But again, my point was exactly that people don't race their cars. Their only hard accelerations are between traffic lights and getting on highways. EV's dominate in these scenarios.

      Quote Originally Posted by goVolvo View Post
      So I think T8 S60 platform is a good enough sporty car to drive, 4.8sec for 0-60.

      The key is it has to be really attractive in looking, 2 door, or convertible. And offer some fancy styling kit. It has to be very different from Volvo style. Be bold, make it something look like Corvette.

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      You are not even talking about a sports car anymore. The reality is that the current P* is just on the edge of being a sports car but most would say it is not one. Making a heavier car (S/V60 T8) that is slower than the current car (0-60 4.8) would ensure that they attract zero new customers.
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    27. #25
      Quote Originally Posted by P50GT View Post
      Sorry but that is not a Bespoke engine. AMG makes bespoke engines. Their engines are made by AMG and are not found in any MB vehicles. They are not MB engines with a few parts changed.

      You're entitled to your opinion but I think it's pretty clear that a Hybrid is the worst possible solution for a Performance car. Look at the Market. There are a total of 4 Hybrid Performance cars on the Market. 3 cost ~$1MM/each and all of those have 800HP+ without their E-Assist. Well guess what, they are all slower to 60 than the fully EV Model S P100D and slower in the 1/4 mile than the fully EV Rimac. The 4th Hybrid is the much slower NSX, which if you like, you can easily buy because no one wants them. Unlike all of their competitors that have long wait lists, you can get an NSX right away in any market in the US. ICE's have weight advantages over EV's right now. EV's have torque and CG advantages over ICE's. Hybrids have no advantages over anything.
      This is where I disagree.

      AMG and the term 'bespoke' is very loaded. All of their AMG engines are still just standard MB designs tweaked by AMG like Polestar did with the Drive-e. Sure - They are hand assembled on a line.. But who gives a ****? This is marketing gibberish that only people who understand nothing about cars would care about. It's hand assembled because they don't have the appropriate volume to build the things on a mechanized line. I'll point out that i'm not 100% certain but the 2017/2018 Polestar Drive-E could just as easily be 'bespoke' as these aren't a common Drive-E engine being produced and could likely be hand assembled somewhere in the corner of the plant somewhere - Again similar to the AMG engines. I really think you over-rate AMG and what they are doing these days. They are not the AMG of 20 years ago, and are really not doing anything special anymore. Even BMW M has also largely turned into a marketing exercise.

      Further - If Volvo were a larger company like GM/Chevy and already had a state of technology V8 like the LT1 I wouldn't give a crap if it were bespoke or not. Put it in everything sporty that doesn't need to worry as much about fuel consumption and we have a great engine. In this case Polestar already has the twin-charged Drive-E setup to work with which is already at the bleeding edge for state of the technology for ICE. For the segment the current V60/S60 Polestar are competing in it's enough power also given the drivetrain and price range.

      Finally, I completely disagree about Hybrid being the worst possible solution. In this case Hybrid is the *best* possible solution as there are clear issues with going EV-Only. Meanwhile Volvo has an outstanding new platform that was designed with the T8 hybrid drivetrain in mind. A S60 making nearly 500HP from a Hybrid setup will dominate both the M3 and C63 AMG if Polestar tunes it correctly, and to your point of 0-60 times we'll have a car that will blow the M3/C63 AMG away in that department due to the vast power band of the hybrid setup and finally having a Volvo that will have enough peak HP to win in the top end as well. Never mind the fact that we'll still have AWD and the daily driver considerations that brings. I already had a Chevy SS w/ a whipple on it making 600HP. While I would consider it more comfortable then my V60 Polestar it generally (Even without the whipple) wasn't as good as a daily driver as it had less cargo room, and no AWD meant some issues in snow even w/ snow tires.
      Last edited by mchart; 06-17-2017 at 12:24 PM.

    28. #26
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      Quote Originally Posted by mchart View Post
      This is where I disagree.

      AMG makes bespoke engines -Because they have to-. The current line-up of non-AMG engines that AMG would choose from isn't that great. They have to make their own because if they don't they wouldn't have a decent engine to use for the 400HP+ territory. Keep in mind that even C43 AMG is only using a re-tuned V6. It is not a bespoke AMG engine like you say.

      Further - If Volvo were a larger company like GM/Chevy and already had a state of technology V8 like the LT1 I wouldn't give a crap if it were bespoke or not. Put it in everything sporty that doesn't need to worry as much about fuel consumption and we have a great engine. In this case Polestar already has the twin-charged Drive-E setup to work with which is already at the bleeding edge for state of the technology for ICE. For the segment the current V60/S60 Polestar are competing in it's enough power also given the drivetrain and price range.

      Finally, I completely disagree about Hybrid being the worst possible solution. In this case Hybrid is the *best* possible solution as there are clear issues with going EV-Only. Meanwhile Volvo has an outstanding new platform that was designed with the T8 hybrid drivetrain in mind. A S60 making nearly 500HP from a Hybrid setup will dominate both the M3 and C63 AMG if Polestar tunes it correctly, and to your point of 0-60 times we'll have a car that will blow the M3/C63 AMG away in that department due to the vast power band of the hybrid setup and finally having a Volvo that will have enough peak HP to win in the top end as well. Never mind the fact that we'll still have AWD and the daily driver considerations that brings. I already had a Chevy SS w/ a whipple on it making 600HP. While I would consider it more comfortable then my V60 Polestar it generally (Even without the whipple) wasn't as good as a daily driver as it had less cargo room, and no AWD meant some issues in snow even w/ snow tires.
      Okay, so MB doesn't have good engines and the Drive-E is the bleeding edge of tech. Sorry but that is not reality. The same Wards 10 best Engine Award that the Drive-E won, the MB C300 won this year, http://wardsauto.com/2017/2017-wards...images-1725171. The Drive-E engine has suffered from a ton of issues already. Oil consumption issues, bad/blown seals, complete engine failures. The T8 systems have been a nightmare for Volvo already. Not only are they failing at a high rate but they don't employ enough techs that know how to work on them.

      A Hybrid S60 would have zero chance against an M3 or C63 simply because of weight. The T8 system adds about 600lbs to the car and doesn't deliver any power over 90mph. SPA was designed for an EV setup from the beginning. Here is the other reality, the new platform is not "outstanding" as you just called it. Have you driven an S90? I had one for a week and its driving dynamics were a step backwards from the S80. So I don't know what outstanding things you are referring to about this platform beyond it being modular. The only limitations of a Performance EV are mental barriers put on by people with no experience with them. I have 4 years and 25k+ miles in them, so I speak from experience, not just repeating fear mongering from people who are scared that the ICE is dying. There are definitely limitations for an EV as a single luxury vehicle that is intended for repeated long distance trips, but that is not what a sports car is for, no matter what propels it. Our cars are really not sports cars. They are extremely sporty sedans/wagons. A 911 is a sports car, a McLaren 570s is a Sports car, a Corvette is a Sports car.
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    29. #27
      Quote Originally Posted by P50GT View Post
      Okay, so MB doesn't have good engines and the Drive-E is the bleeding edge of tech. Sorry but that is not reality. The same Wards 10 best Engine Award that the Drive-E won, the MB C300 won this year, http://wardsauto.com/2017/2017-wards...images-1725171. The Drive-E engine has suffered from a ton of issues already. Oil consumption issues, bad/blown seals, complete engine failures. The T8 systems have been a nightmare for Volvo already. Not only are they failing at a high rate but they don't employ enough techs that know how to work on them.

      A Hybrid S60 would have zero chance against an M3 or C63 simply because of weight. The T8 system adds about 600lbs to the car and doesn't deliver any power over 90mph. SPA was designed for an EV setup from the beginning. Here is the other reality, the new platform is not "outstanding" as you just called it. Have you driven an S90? I had one for a week and its driving dynamics were a step backwards from the S80. So I don't know what outstanding things you are referring to about this platform beyond it being modular. The only limitations of a Performance EV are mental barriers put on by people with no experience with them. I have 4 years and 25k+ miles in them, so I speak from experience, not just repeating fear mongering from people who are scared that the ICE is dying. There are definitely limitations for an EV as a single luxury vehicle that is intended for repeated long distance trips, but that is not what a sports car is for, no matter what propels it. Our cars are really not sports cars. They are extremely sporty sedans/wagons. A 911 is a sports car, a McLaren 570s is a Sports car, a Corvette is a Sports car.

      The S90 is a luxury car and you can hardly take that as a judge of what the platform would be capable of if something more sporty were made in mind.

      Again, you over rate what AMG is doing. These are not 'bespoke' engines like you think they are. They are hand-assembled out of mass manufactured parts, and not even hand-assembled in a way that a small shop making racing engines hand assembles an engine.

      You are absolutely correct - Our car is supposed to be a sporty sedan just as the M3/C63 AMG should be. I don't think Volvo/Polestar should be making a two-seater sports car. They should focus on something that Volvo already generally does well - A liveable sporty sedan. The issue is that they need to come up with something that can actually compete with the M3, and I believe with the new lighter platform and the T8 setup they can. EV only absolutely is a real barrier and not just a 'mental' barrier. Until EV's have easily swappable battery packs that would let me 're-charge' the vehicle at a station in the same time it takes me to fill my car up with gas I want nothing to do with EV for a car that is meant to be a daily driver. I will accept Hybrid as Hybrid doesn't have EV's current Achilles heel attached to it.

      Finally, I 100% agree with you if Volvo intends on having Polestar making a two seater sports car. Yes, just make it EV only. I really doubt the 2019 Polestar vehicle is going to be a two seater though.
      Last edited by mchart; 06-17-2017 at 12:43 PM.

    30. #28
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      Quote Originally Posted by mchart View Post
      AMG and the term 'bespoke' is very loaded. All of their AMG engines are still just standard MB designs tweaked by AMG like Polestar did with the Drive-e. Sure - They are hand assembled on a line.. But who gives a ****? This is marketing gibberish that only people who understand nothing about cars would care about. It's hand assembled because they don't have the appropriate volume to build the things on a mechanized line. I'll point out that i'm not 100% certain but the 2017/2018 Polestar Drive-E could just as easily be 'bespoke' as these aren't a common Drive-E engine being produced and could likely be hand assembled somewhere in the corner of the plant somewhere - Again similar to the AMG engines. I really think you over-rate AMG and what they are doing these days. They are not the AMG of 20 years ago, and are really not doing anything special anymore. Even BMW M has also largely turned into a marketing exercise.
      You should really educate yourself more about AMG before claiming such things. Lets look at the AMG M178 engine as an example, http://blog.caranddriver.com/in-dept...o-twin-turbos/. They used this engine to introduce "hot V" design over from Formula 1. This means it's turbos are positioned in between the cylinder heads. The engine itself is made by combining to of their 45 series engines. Do you see any talk about MB engines? That's because there isn't. All AMG engines are unique to AMG cars. There is nothing similar to what P* is doing and what AMG is doing. This isn't because they don't want to or don't have the ability to. It's because Volvo hasn't allowed them to up until this point. They restricted them to very tight parameters and made them maintain mpg ratings on a Performance car which is complete bs.
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    31. #29
      sports car means different things for different people. There are plenty of buyers for a Mustang, Miata, etc. M3 M5 also are in totally different league from 911 and Corvette. And they all sell quite a lot. They don't want to build exotic sports cars that sell just a few. And people don't race at 90mph in road. Maybe 60mph at best.

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    32. #30
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      Quote Originally Posted by goVolvo View Post
      sports car means different things for different people. There are plenty of buyers for a Mustang, Miata, etc. M3 M5 also are in totally different league from 911 and Corvette. And they all sell quite a lot. They don't want to build exotic sports cars that sell just a few. And people don't race at 90mph in road. Maybe 60mph at best.

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      Mustangs, Camaros, etc make up economy sports cars but even they are crazy fast now and also get very expensive. You have Mustangs that start the same price as the P*(GT350) and you have Camaros that will beat Supercars around a track ('17 ZL1). But those cars both those both have over 540HP, the ZL1 has 650hp, 650 ft-lbs.

      The Miata is a fun, sporty car but not a sports car. I think my dog could beat it in a race. 😋

      I don't know where you live but driving 90 on the road is called Tuesday around here.
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    33. #31
      Quote Originally Posted by P50GT View Post
      You should really educate yourself more about AMG before claiming such things. Lets look at the AMG M178 engine as an example, http://blog.caranddriver.com/in-dept...o-twin-turbos/. They used this engine to introduce "hot V" design over from Formula 1. This means it's turbos are positioned in between the cylinder heads. The engine itself is made by combining to of their 45 series engines. Do you see any talk about MB engines? That's because there isn't. All AMG engines are unique to AMG cars. There is nothing similar to what P* is doing and what AMG is doing. This isn't because they don't want to or don't have the ability to. It's because Volvo hasn't allowed them to up until this point. They restricted them to very tight parameters and made them maintain mpg ratings on a Performance car which is complete bs.
      And again - This is all meaningless to someone like me who has actually built engines, because at the end of the day AMG engines are not hand-assembled in the way you think they are. Nor do I think your specific example there is some amazing feat of engineering/technology. If AMG actually cared about delivering the best performance/weight ratio they wouldn't be building DOHC V8's. Unfortunately for us DOHC V8's are cheaper and easier to assemble, and most have fallen for the marketing years ago that it is a 'superior' design to cam-in-block. Get back to me when AMG starts offering a hot-v pushrod V8 because that would be a truly compact/lightweight package with immense power. Ultimately doing what they did isn't impressive to me because DOHC V8's are already tall and have ample room to do it and just knowing how heavy the AMG V8's are I really don't care.

      Sure - Polestar hasn't taken the Drive-E and actually made a new engine, but as you said; Between the given parameters of Volvo, and the fact that the Drive-E was designed from the ground up w/ high performance in mind there isn't much more Polestar can do here beyond what they've already done.

      And again, it is very likely the Polestar Drive-E's are 'hand built' to the same extent that the AMG engines are given the low volume of Polestars and the significant changes from the Polestar engine vice the standard T6. The Polestar engines cannot be made on the same assembly line as the standard Drive-E due to these substantial differences, so unless Volvo re-configured the line for a week and churned out all the Polestar engines at once (Which is doubtful), these engines were hand assembled in a corner somewhere in the factory just like AMG engines generally are.
      Last edited by mchart; 06-17-2017 at 01:18 PM.

    34. #32
      Driving 90mph is fine on west highway if no police car is around. but it is different from racing and accelerating quickly at 90mph.

      Let's draw a line between the two sport* car market, exotic, high hp/price ones, <4sec 0-60, and more affordable ones, 4-5sec is just fine. It is fine to call it sporty car, not sports/racing car. I am just saying there is more chance for Polestar in the latter.

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    35. #33
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      Quote Originally Posted by mchart View Post
      And again - This is all meaningless to someone like me who has actually built engines, because at the end of the day AMG engines are not hand-assembled in the way you think they are. Nor do I think your specific example there is some amazing feat of engineering/technology.

      Sure - Polestar hasn't taken the Drive-E and actually made a new engine, but as you said; Between the given parameters of Volvo, and the fact that the Drive-E was designed from the ground up w/ high performance in mind there isn't much more Polestar can do here beyond what they've already done.

      And again, it is very likely the Polestar Drive-E's are 'hand built' to the same extent that the AMG engines are given the low volume of Polestars and the significant changes from the Polestar engine vice the standard T6. The Polestar engines cannot be made on the same assembly line as the standard Drive-E due to these substantial differences, so unless Volvo re-configured the line for a week and churned out all the Polestar engines at once (Which is doubtful), these engines were hand assembled in a corner somewhere in the factory just like AMG engines generally are.
      You're too caught up on this "hand built" part, which I couldn't care less about. When I said bespoke, I was referring to the fact that their engines are unique to their cars. Not slapping on a larger turbo and then having to reinforce some internals so it doesn't blow up from the extra boost as is the case with the '17 P*'s. AMG builds engines specifically for their vehicles only. While you don't think the "Hot V" design is a big deal, it's one of the big reasons that MB dominated in F1 in 2016. It was a unique design that they employed and no one else had. The engine that P* put in the S60 Concept is closer along the lines of what I am talking about. They still used Volvo parts, but it didn't resemble anything in the lineup by the time they were done. That was still the I-6 so it doesn't really fit fully.

      Quote Originally Posted by goVolvo View Post
      Driving 90mph is fine on west highway if no police car is around. but it is different from racing and accelerating quickly at 90mph.

      Let's draw a line between the two sport* car market, exotic, high hp/price ones, <4sec 0-60, and more affordable ones, 4-5sec is just fine. It is fine to call it sporty car, not sports/racing car. I am just saying there is more chance for Polestar in the latter.

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      They are already competing in this segment now and not selling very well.
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    36. #34
      Quote Originally Posted by P50GT View Post
      You're too caught up on this "hand built" part, which I couldn't care less about. When I said bespoke, I was referring to the fact that their engines are unique to their cars. Not slapping on a larger turbo and then having to reinforce some internals so it doesn't blow up from the extra boost as is the case with the '17 P*'s. AMG builds engines specifically for their vehicles only. While you don't think the "Hot V" design is a big deal, it's one of the big reasons that MB dominated in F1 in 2016. It was a unique design that they employed and no one else had. The engine that P* put in the S60 Concept is closer along the lines of what I am talking about. They still used Volvo parts, but it didn't resemble anything in the lineup by the time they were done.



      They are already competing in this segment now and not selling very well.
      But it doesn't mean they would give up. Make new models more stylish, better weight distribution, handling, more colors, it can surely sell better than current S60/V60 Polestar which is actually one generation behind the coming SPA models.

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    37. #35
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      Quote Originally Posted by goVolvo View Post
      But it doesn't mean they would give up. Make new models more stylish, better weight distribution, handling, more colors, it can surely sell better than current S60/V60 Polestar which is actually one generation behind the coming SPA models.

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      The car now is solid. It should already be selling for what it is. The current issue is Marketing. When is the last time you saw any Volvo marketing talking about performance? This is one of the reasons that P* needs to separate. Volvo is too scared to talk about fast cars.
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