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    1. #36
      Quote Originally Posted by P50GT View Post
      You're too caught up on this "hand built" part, which I couldn't care less about. When I said bespoke, I was referring to the fact that their engines are unique to their cars. Not slapping on a larger turbo and then having to reinforce some internals so it doesn't blow up from the extra boost as is the case with the '17 P*'s. AMG builds engines specifically for their vehicles only. While you don't think the "Hot V" design is a big deal, it's one of the big reasons that MB dominated in F1 in 2016. It was a unique design that they employed and no one else had. The engine that P* put in the S60 Concept is closer along the lines of what I am talking about. They still used Volvo parts, but it didn't resemble anything in the lineup by the time they were done. That was still the I-6 so it doesn't really fit fully.



      They are already competing in this segment now and not selling very well.
      It isn't a 'big deal' because it's like saying that because a car has a turbo it's a 'big deal'. The MB F1 engine is no where near the Bi-Turbo V8 AMG is using. Doing hot-v on a small 1.6l V6 is A LOT more impressive then doing hot-v on a tall and heavy V8.

      I don't believe i'm getting 'caught up' on anything. I'm simply not getting caught up in typical marketing hype.

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    3. #37
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      Quote Originally Posted by mchart View Post
      It isn't a 'big deal' because it's like saying that because a car has a turbo it's a 'big deal'. The MB F1 engine is no where near the Bi-Turbo V8 AMG is using. Doing hot-v on a small 1.6l V6 is A LOT more impressive then doing hot-v on a tall and heavy V8.

      I don't believe i'm getting 'caught up' on anything. I'm simply not getting caught up in typical marketing hype.
      I fully agree with about M becoming more a Marketing brand. The simple point is that Performance/Motorsport divisions should not be using the same or tweaked versions of the drivetrain from the companies standard cars. Even Porsche does this with their GT cars.
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    4. #38
      Quote Originally Posted by P50GT View Post
      The car now is solid. It should already be selling for what it is. The current issue is Marketing. When is the last time you saw any Volvo marketing talking about performance? This is one of the reasons that P* needs to separate. Volvo is too scared to talk about fast cars.
      body style is what I think makes the difference. American don't think 4door sedan is sporty. Make a 2door coupe and convertible then people will come and look. Crank it to <4.5sec and people will wow it. Anyways Volvo image has nothing to do with sporty so a seperate brand is always better.

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    6. #39
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      Quote Originally Posted by goVolvo View Post
      body style is what I think makes the difference. American don't think 4door sedan is sporty. Make a 2door coupe and convertible then people will come and look. Crank it to <4.5sec and people will wow it. Anyways Volvo image has nothing to do with sporty so a seperate brand is always better.

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      I agree that coupes are beautiful but unfortunately they don't sell. I don't have the stats for last year but in 2015 they made up just 2.6% of the US market, down from 3% the year prior and 3.3% the year before. http://autoweek.com/article/car-news...ont-make-money. The short is that people want sedans and crossovers.
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    7. #40
      Don't you think that hybrid is not the best solution? About 400 PS going on front wheels and 150 on back wheels would make the car really understeered. Besides, Volvo still had problems with electric AWD (as in XC90 T8), so fully EV would probably be better option.

    8. #41
      Quote Originally Posted by Piotrunho View Post
      Don't you think that hybrid is not the best solution? About 400 PS going on front wheels and 150 on back wheels would make the car really understeered. Besides, Volvo still had problems with electric AWD (as in XC90 T8), so fully EV would probably be better option.
      Torque and horsepower is not same thing. E-motor at rear provides great torque at low speed, while ICE peak torque starts around 2000rpm.

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    9. #42
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      Quote Originally Posted by goVolvo View Post
      Torque and horsepower is not same thing. E-motor at rear provides great torque at low speed, while ICE peak torque starts around 2000rpm.

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      I'm sorry but 177ft-lbs is not great Torque. Our P*'s are putting out closer to 400ft-lbs. The Model S P100D puts out 920ft-lbs. The Volvo system just doesn't have a big enough battery nor a powerful enough E-motor. It's not made to be a performance setup.
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    10. #43
      Quote Originally Posted by P50GT View Post
      I'm sorry but 177ft-lbs is not great Torque. Our P*'s are putting out closer to 400ft-lbs. The Model S P100D puts out 920ft-lbs. The Volvo system just doesn't have a big enough battery nor a powerful enough E-motor. It's not made to be a performance setup.
      Don't forget the torque at front axle. The max torque around 1sec from start is high 500 to 600 ft-lbs total.
      Of course current T8 is not for performance setup. But it is not rocket science to make high power e-motor.

      You tend to think EV is better than PHEV but it is not always true. Both PHEV and EV sports cars are being sold. It is not one way or the other.
      And some exotic performance cars now are hybrid.
      It is not to say Volvo's research capability tops at T8 and they can't build something more powerful.
      It is just matter of demanding and decision.

      Last edited by goVolvo; 06-17-2017 at 04:06 PM.

    11. #44
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      Quote Originally Posted by goVolvo View Post
      Don't forget the torque at front axle. The max torque around 1sec from start is high 500 to 600 ft-lbs total.
      Of course current T8 is not for performance setup. But it is not rocket science to make high power e-motor.

      You tend to think EV is better than PHEV but it is not always true. Both PHEV and EV sports cars are being sold. It is not one way or the other.
      And some exotic performance cars now are hybrid.
      It is not to say Volvo's research capability tops at T8 and they can't build something more powerful.
      It is just matter of demanding and decision.

      Numbers aren't everything. That extra power of the T8 comes with 600 extra lbs of weight. Volvo is quoting a 0-60 on the S90 T8 of 5.7 sec. Guess what that compares to on the 5 series. The base 530xi that only has a 248HP 4 cylinder and that's it. So again Volvo's S90 T8 with 400HP, 472 ft-lbs, is no quicker than the 530xi with 248Hp and will be ~$20k more expensive. Step up to just the 6 cylinder on the 5 series and you are a full second faster than the T8. Step up to the V8 and you are now under 4 seconds in the 5 series and still around the same price as the T8.

      No EV or PHEV Sports car are actually being currently sold. The Tesla Roadster was the last EV Sports car on the market. The Holy trinity are Hypercars, not Sports cars and they are also not true PHEV's. They are ICE's with mild hybrid systems. Each one of them has an ICE powerful enough to be a Supercar on its own. An example of a PHEV is the Fisker Karma. It operates fully as an EV and only uses its ICE as a generator. The Model S is also not a Sports Car. It's a luxury sedan that just happens to have performance on par with all of the Supercars that are out today. It is just used an an example to show what an EV drivetrain is capable of but the body that the drivetrain is wrapped with is 100% a luxury sedan, not a Sports car. Finally the NSX would be considered a Supercar, not a Sports Car. If they had just gone with an ICE drivetrain, they would have a waitlist for the car, instead they can't get anyone to buy them. The NSX is sadly turning into one of the biggest flops in current auto history. It's 10 years too late and no one seems to want it, yet all of its competitors have long wait lists.
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    12. #45
      On Volvo US site, XC90 T8 5.3sec, S90 T8 5.7sec, XC60 T8 4.9sec. Kind of weird.

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    13. #46
      It has to be mistake. In Europe 0-62 of S90 T8 is 4.7. And I doubt whether FWD biased car with electric AWD may function well on track.

    14. #47
      Assuming you had enough torque to match 50% rear from the electric motors it would function just fine.

    15. #48
      Quote Originally Posted by Piotrunho View Post
      It has to be mistake. In Europe 0-62 of S90 T8 is 4.7. And I doubt whether FWD biased car with electric AWD may function well on track.
      Here it mentioned 5.7sec for T6. So T8 must be faster. I don't find the number online though.

      http://www.automobilemag.com/news/20...0-first-drive/

    16. #49
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      So say it is 4.7, that is still only as quick as the 6 cylinder 5 series, which does it with only 335HP and is $10k less than the T8. The V8 5 Series does it in 3.9 Seconds and then there is the M5.
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    17. #50
      Quote Originally Posted by P50GT View Post
      So say it is 4.7, that is still only as quick as the 6 cylinder 5 series, which does it with only 335HP and is $10k less than the T8. The V8 5 Series does it in 3.9 Seconds and then there is the M5.
      We have no idea what the times are yet, but you are forgetting that for the market these cars are built in they are taxed by engine displacement. As stupid as that is - This would give a T8 equipped S90 a massive monetary advantage in the European market.

      Ultimately this is why the for the US market if I were buying a sportier large size sedan the SS (was) the perfect choice. The LS3 is an outstanding engine when you don't have to worry about being heavily taxed based on engine displacement, but in the European market they have to deal with this.

      If Volvo only gets a 4.7s 0-60 out of the T8 S90 that all comes down to being to light-handed with the tuning honestly. 400HP/472ftlbs of torque and AWD should be mid-low 4 seconds.

      No - It doesn't match the 550i, but lets be honest - The 550i STARTS at $72k before plethora of options. It's in a completely different price category from the T8 S90. The T8 S90 also already comes decently equipped, where as a 550i easily needs at least another $5k in options to match the T8 S90 feature wise.

      Ultimately given the price points I believe the T8 S90 will be marginally faster in a straight line compared to the 540i, and still end up being slightly cheaper / about the same price wise once you feature the 540i out the same. This isn't even accounting for the substantial yearly road tax savings the T8 S90 will have due to the smaller engine displacement and/or tax credits due to being electric.
      Last edited by mchart; 06-18-2017 at 01:38 PM.

    18. #51
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      Quote Originally Posted by mchart View Post
      We have no idea what the times are yet, but you are forgetting that for the market these cars are built in they are taxed by engine displacement. As stupid as that is - This would give a T8 equipped S90 a massive monetary advantage in the European market.

      Ultimately this is why the for the US market if I were buying a sportier large size sedan the SS (was) the perfect choice. The LS3 is an outstanding engine when you don't have to worry about being heavily taxed based on engine displacement, but in the European market they have to deal with this.

      If Volvo only gets a 4.7s 0-60 out of the T8 S90 that all comes down to being to light-handed with the tuning honestly. 400HP/472ftlbs of torque and AWD should be mid-low 4 seconds.

      No - It doesn't match the 550i, but lets be honest - The 550i STARTS at $72k before plethora of options. It's in a completely different price category from the T8 S90. The T8 S90 also already comes decently equipped, where as a 550i easily needs at least another $5k in options to match the T8 S90 feature wise.

      Ultimately given the price points I believe the T8 S90 will be marginally faster in a straight line compared to the 540i, and still end up being slightly cheaper / about the same price wise once you feature the 540i out the same. This isn't even accounting for the substantial yearly road tax savings the T8 S90 will have due to the smaller engine displacement and/or tax credits due to being electric.
      We are talking about the US not Europe, so that is irrlevant. If we were in Europe, we could have that convo, but we're not. The US is also P*'s largest market by far.

      Volvo only gets 4.7s out of the S90 T8 because of how much it weighs. The T8 system adds 600lbs to the car. Adding 80HP and 600lbs, doesn't help that much. Also the BMW has all of its power at all times as well as its AWD system functioning at all times. The T8 only has its power up to 90mph and only when charged.

      Not sure how you think that $68k and $72k are "completely different price categories". I just Spec'd an S90 T8 out to $80k. $72k is also for the M550i which comes with the M Sport package standard.

      Again, at least goVolvo and myself are in the US where there is absolutely zero difference in taxes between owning any of the mentioned cars. The 540i is $10k cheaper, so I have no idea how you are trying to claim the S90 is cheaper. It definitely does not have $10k in standard options more than the 540xi.
      Last edited by P50GT; 06-18-2017 at 02:19 PM.
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    19. #52
      Feature for feature the 540i is almost identical in price as the T8 S90. Sure - You could get a base 540i, but most dealers don't even order those, and it's not much of a luxury car.

      As soon as you start adding options to match T8 S90 standard features the 550i is substantially more expensive.

      You can build a T8 S90 to $80k - But the point is that it already comes decently equipped. Base BMW's don't.

    20. #53
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      Quote Originally Posted by mchart View Post
      Feature for feature the 540i is almost identical in price as the T8 S90. Sure - You could get a base 540i, but most dealers don't even order those, and it's not much of a luxury car.

      As soon as you start adding options to match T8 S90 standard features the 550i is substantially more expensive.

      You can build a T8 S90 to $80k - But the point is that it already comes decently equipped. Base BMW's don't.
      You just proved the point. The T8 matches up against the 540xi when that is what the T6 should be doing. The T8 is supposed to be the replacement for the competition's​ top of the line models.
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    21. #54
      If we don't care at all about these nuances in the US market then this discussion is irrelevant. At that point we can pick up a CTS-V w/ standard GM incentives which brings the price to at least high $70's.

    22. #55
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      Quote Originally Posted by mchart View Post
      If we don't care at all about these nuances in the US market then this discussion is irrelevant. At that point we can pick up a CTS-V w/ standard GM incentives which brings the price to at least high $70's.
      Volvo has always existed as a lower cost alternative to the other luxury makers. With the T8'S they​ all of a sudden expect people to pay a premium for a Volvo product that is not offering a compelling advantage. That's the point here. The original point was that numbers on hybrids are misleading because of the additional weight but I think that point had been proved pretty well.
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    23. #56
      Thread is poisoned
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    24. #57
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      Quote Originally Posted by P50GT View Post
      Volvo has always existed as a lower cost alternative to the other luxury makers. With the T8'S they​ all of a sudden expect people to pay a premium for a Volvo product that is not offering a compelling advantage. That's the point here. The original point was that numbers on hybrids are misleading because of the additional weight but I think that point had been proved pretty well.
      I think they are expecting people to pay the premium for the fantastic interior and B&W sound system. The power comes secondary in the market Volvo are aiming for. They are putting a price on the design aspects, not the numbers.

      Its a bold strategy Cotton, lets see if it pays off.
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    25. #58
      What Polestar will offer on the SPA platform will be the thing to look. If it is T8 based less than 4.5sec 0-60, 50% weight distribution, sporty looking and handling, it will still be fantastic. Maybe around $70k possible. And make a convertible please.

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    26. #59
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      Quote Originally Posted by P50GT View Post
      ICE's have weight advantages over EV's right now. EV's have torque and CG advantages over ICE's. Hybrids have no advantages over anything.
      You forget the biggest hurdle for EVs vs ICE. An ICE can be refueled (extend "range" by 400 miles) in a few minutes rather than many hours. EVs need to start using H2 fuel cells instead of batteries if they want to actually not be worse than an ICE in this key metric.
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    27. #60
      The way things currently are going Polestar is dead.
      Polestar is offering one thing, Volvo is delivering something else.
      Heads at Volvo are looking the other way.
      A real pity to see a that great effort which started 5 years ago go to waste.
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    28. #61
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      Quote Originally Posted by Warpedcow View Post
      You forget the biggest hurdle for EVs vs ICE. An ICE can be refueled (extend "range" by 400 miles) in a few minutes rather than many hours. EVs need to start using H2 fuel cells instead of batteries if they want to actually not be worse than an ICE in this key metric.
      This completely depends on how you plan to use the car. I currently fill my car up maybe once a week, sometimes twice. Guess how this would work in an EV? I would never have to worry about it again. Every day when I came home, I would just plug it in and leave the house with a full charge. I would never have to worry about having to stop at the gas station before going somewhere because I will always have a full charge before I leave the house. We aren't talking about short range EV's anymore. The Model S P100D has a 315 mile range which is better than a tank in my P*. The next group of EV's about to hit the market, like the Lucid Air are promising a 400+ mile range. As we are still talking about a performance car here and not a road trip car, that's more than a day's worth of driving. The EV actually has the advantage in that you have a "fueling station" at home that costs you pennies on the dollar of what gas does and could even be free if you went solar.
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    29. #62
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      Well P* has now confirmed they will become a separate EV performance brand...

      https://www.polestar.com/intl/2017/0...ormance-brand/
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    30. #63
      In previous press releases Volvo has used the term "electrified" to refer to hybrid and full electric vehicles i.e. plans for 1 million electrified cars (total) by 2025.

      Previous "hints" from executives on the sidelines of auto shows first suggested Polestar could do hybrid cars and later have suggested that "electric premium" cars is a growing segment. There are certainly almost countless new brands popping up offering electric supercars.

      I personally hope the new model is an evolution of the T8 and is a hybrid with a higher performance engine.

      It could understandably be a 100% electric car but I'm far less keen on that option.

      I'm pleased to see that evolutions of Volvo models "Engineered by Polestar" will still be taking place. That keeps the performance option of Volvo alive at least.

      Standalone Polestar cars, separate appearance, brand and models (coupes?) is a very good and interesting de

    31. #64
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      Fast Polestar Volvos are dead. Its exactly like Johann stated. This will probably my fisrt and also my last Volvo.

      What a missed chance for Polestar to become something like AMG, M, OPC etc..
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    32. #65
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      Volvo could never accomplish simply living up to BMW, MB, Audi so I don't know why any of you ever expected P* to be able to rise up to the levels of M, AMG, Quattro. As they knew they would never achieve those levels, they are trying a different route. This is called smart business.
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    33. #66
      Quote Originally Posted by P50GT View Post
      Volvo could never accomplish simply living up to BMW, MB, Audi so I don't know why any of you ever expected P* to be able to rise up to the levels of M, AMG, Quattro. As they knew they would never achieve those levels, they are trying a different route. This is called smart business.
      Bull. It's called not so smart business. Volvo has had T-5R and R. Dropped all customers/followers after that and started somewhat of a comeback with Polestar. A lot of engineering as well as marketing has gone in to that brand. I guess polestar came to a point where they didn't fit in to Volvo's ancient beliefs anymore. Volvo acquired Polestar, "Volvo engineered" the Polestar and now they throw the towel.
      The last Polestar is very promising and capable give and take a few minor flaws. One being some Polestar soul taken by Volvo.
      With the latest announcement all that marketing effort has been killed off and Polestar is back to square one. The 'company hoe" being tossed around because there is no clear direction anymore. To much people pulling strings.
      It was clear from day one that Polestar had to stuff their creation with parts from Volvo's premium parts bin for the simple reason that Volvo didn't want this car to happen.
      The 6 cylinder was a good engineered car within the boundaries forced by Volvo. After that polestar lost the game, Volvo acquired Polestar and part of the engineering was reversed by people who do not understand this car. The fine line between sportively aggressive and tacky was crossed. Assimilated and vanished so to speak.
      The biggest issue for Volvo at this moment. From D2 to T8 all cars are the same.
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    34. #67
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      So true Johann
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    35. #68
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      The fact that the latest r designs don't come with p* software installed, or sportier suspensions is the biggest sign for me that performance is "over" at Volvo.

      In 2014, r design meant 25more hp, stiffer suspension, louder exhaust, etc. (s60)
      now (xc90, s90) it means black grille and silver mirror caps :-(
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    36. #69
      I see so many negative comments about Volvo giving up here. Literally if you read their press release:

      "Volvo Cars acquired 100 percent of Polestar Performance in July 2015, having worked together in motorsport since 1996. In the future, Polestar will offer Polestar branded cars that will no longer carry a Volvo logo, as well as optimization packages for Volvo’s range of cars under the Polestar Engineered brand."

      I see no issue in creating BOTH Polestar branded sports cars and Volvo Polestar cars. The Current S/V60 is under the Volvo "Polestar Engineered " Brand. I think everyone is interpreting the message incorrectly.
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    37. #70
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      Because zhe message isnt clear.

      I understand it like this: no more Volvos engineered by Polestar (like V60/S60 Polestar). All that is left are performance packages what you can buy for every normal volvo.

      And if this is the case, they missed a huge opportunity like Johann stated and all they did was tease people with a V60 Polestar.
      - Volvo V60 Polestar -->at the track
      - Porsche Cayman R

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