I dunno if anyone mentioned this, but supposedly the GT torque is limited for 1st and 2nd gears, then upped to the full 295 ft/lb in 3rd, 4th, and 5th. This was because of the compact size of the transmission -- when run with the full torque it would grenade in 1st and 2nd...So the GT isn't that bad after all...
Bedhead
If you go through the math, you'll find that 258 torque would be close to 300 hp @ 6000 RPM. It's important to note that the HP@RPM is different 6-sp to GT.The 0-60 time is "spoiled" even more by the 1-2 additional limit. I simulated that and estimate that 1-2 torque might be more like 245.
The R's additional weight makes it slower than the T5
I guess there's 2 threads on this.....Reduced to a single simple formula, HP = (torque * rpm) / 5252
Thus 258 ft lbs @ 6000 RPM = 294, close to 300 HP for th GT
And 295 ft ibs @ 5500 = 308 for the MT
IMHO, that the GT has further reduction at some point
In this thread....http://forums.swedespeed.com/zerothread?id=8711
there's discussion on the effects of autoamtic drag etc. My simulations were done with CarTest which factors that in.
Although I can't totally simulate the GT in CarTest, since it never gets out of 2nd gear during 0-60 runs, I can just look at that range. That's how I came up with the 245 number.
BTW, on the unfettered 6-sp, CarTest is quite close with its simulated results
Supposedly an engineer at the press intro a couple weeks ago mentioned that that GT limit was only in 1st. I could believe 2nd too. I don't know if that's true or not, but it does make some sense.Bottom line: the only thing that's going to sort this mess out is more details from Volvo plus some independent performance testing. I'm with JimLill on one thing: the published torque and 0-60 numbers just don't add up. Based on what he's said about his simulations and what the Volvo engineers have allegedly said, I am beginning to wonder if 258 is an average with the ECU being programmed to deliver much less in 1st and closer to 295 in high gears.
[Modified by DF, 1:55 PM 4-13-2003]
I have a fair amount of faith in CarTest, having used it for years. In particular, it yields pretty good 0-60 runs. I have looked at the V70R quite a bit and get the following simulated 0-60 runs.V70R 6-sp = 5.6 secs
V70R GT assuming full 258 ft lbs = 6.6If there is further reduction in 1-2 as reported, since 0-60 only uses those gears, I set the torque to 245 and get a time of 7.5 secs.
If there were no limits at, that is the full 295 of the MT available to the GT, the time is 5.8 secs which may be about the right amount of additional time for the slip etc. of an auto.
As far as the auto surviving.... you can actually build more boost on the line with an auto than a MT as you can brake torque it to spin the turbo up a bit. That means the transmission is getting a work out even at 0 mph!
In an effort to qualify CarTest relative to Volvos etc. I dug out the specs for a 2001 V70 T5 manual and ran that. I get 7.21 secs for 0-60 which is damn close to ipd's report of 7.23 for stock. Using their data for the modified car, I get 6.15 vs. their tested 6.27
Tweaking the IPD chipped V70 T5M data set, I get 6.05, close to my last 6.15 secs for 0-60. This is what Yannis drives and he seems to think 6.0 is close to real for him. So I think my simulations are damn close in the 0-60 range and my theory on torque for the GT is close for 1-2 gears anyway.That is torque is limited to 245 for 1-2 and 258 for 3-5. 258 works out close to the 300 HP when you use the GT's 6000 RPM peak.
I think Volvo rounded the HP to 300 on both cars, neither is exactly 300
Perhaps, but the fundamental assumption behind your analysis is that the 0-60 time is correct and the published torque information is wrong. We will have to see.Most people at Shea stadium claimed that the V70R GT felt almost as fast when driven almost exclusively in 2nd gear. You would think if torque were down to 245, it would have been pretty obvious. That's basically stock T5 level in a heavier AWD car.
I assume that the published value of 258 is correct but 3-5 only. If it was 258 1-5 then my simulations which are all pretty good for other cars would give 0-60 of 6.6 Volvo claims 7.5-ish don't see why Volvo would lowball the 0-60 that much...
[Modified by JimLill, 7:13 PM 4-15-2003]
quote:Most people at Shea stadium claimed that the V70R GT felt almost as fast when driven almost exclusively in 2nd gear. You would think if torque were down to 245, it would have been pretty obvious. That's basically stock T5 level in a heavier AWD car.
But one gear does not tell the whole story here. My colleague (who drove the V70 and S60 with GT more extensively than me because that is what he likes) claimed that "the R cars with GT are as quick as the manual cars when driven in the 2nd gear, therefore, he would be happy with a GT-equipped car vs. a manual"...No way! For everyday purposes or even for a REAL race around a track, where one would have to utilize all gears, I bet the manual would SMOKE the GT car especially since GT is kind of slow to respond. It takes about a second to actually shift after you tap the shift lever forward.
Yannis
2001 Volvo V70 T5 M SR, Classic Red/Graphite L, TME Stage II ECU, 3" Downpipe w/ Cat-back exhaust from MTE, Volvo Roadholding & Lowering Kit w/ Nivomats, 17" PEGASUS, Rear Spoiler, Dolby Surround Sound
Current company car: 2011 Volvo C70 T5, Electric Silver/ Black Sovereign Hide, Climate, Multimedia & Dynamic packages
Here is something "kind of" related...On my way home today, I was stopped at a red light on a four-lane road. About 1/4-mile ahead, I would have to be in the left lane as that is where my intersection for my home is. I was on the 2nd lane from the right (my demo is a 2003 S60 AWD) and I was waiting egerly for the light to turn green to get a jump on everyone. Next to me was a college kid with a VW Golf (I would not have to worry about him) whereas on "my" lane (far left) there was a young punk with a Dodge pickup that sported a very throaty exhaust sound (at idle!) and a big "V8 5.9L R/T" on its front fender, close to the headlights. He saw me looking at the light and anticipated so, of course, he started revving up! Well, I thought "I will give it a go and I doubt that I will beat him but if I do, great, I will get to the light anyway since the Golf would not matter (if it did, I was screwed as there were LOTS of cars behind all of us)...if he beat me, again no biggie as I would still have enough time to cross over to the far left; only my "ego" would be bruised! So, here he was, revving that big "burgerburner" V8, making a racket! As the light turns green, he takes off peeling away; he must have left at least 500 miles worth of rubber on the street, I also take off but the...Golf is antagonizing the...Dodge pick up! Well, I beat the Golf fairly easily but the Dodge is slightly ahead of me until the 2.5T kicked into (I think) 3rd gear...boy, it felt like an afterburner!!! Can I say that the 5.9L V8 lost clearly (not very easily though)? I was, first, surprised as to how powerful that truck was and I was also surprised as to how much torque the new 2.5T engine has! It really amazed me! This car feels almost like an 850 Turbo!
If you have not driven the new AWD...try it out! Huge difference from the 2001 and 2002 models. I cannot wait to drive the 2004 S60 2.5T (FWD)...without the extra weight of AWD, it must be a true rocket! I also believe that the 2004 V70 2.5T will be very successful.
Yannis
2001 Volvo V70 T5 M SR, Classic Red/Graphite L, TME Stage II ECU, 3" Downpipe w/ Cat-back exhaust from MTE, Volvo Roadholding & Lowering Kit w/ Nivomats, 17" PEGASUS, Rear Spoiler, Dolby Surround Sound
Current company car: 2011 Volvo C70 T5, Electric Silver/ Black Sovereign Hide, Climate, Multimedia & Dynamic packages
Easy there tiger, I wasn't claiming that the GT is actually faster than the MT. I was just saying that if torque were limited to 245 ft-lbs in 1st and 2nd as JimLill is guessing, the drivers at Shea would've noticed a big difference between the GT and MT through the autocross courses. To T5 owners, the GT should've seemed obviously slower. This didn't seem to be the case.
quote:
Easy there tiger, I wasn't claiming that the GT is actually faster than the MT. I was just saying that if torque were limited to 245 ft-lbs in 1st and 2nd as JimLill is guessing, the drivers at Shea would've noticed a big difference between the GT and MT through the autocross courses. To T5 owners, the GT should've seemed obviously slower. This didn't seem to be the case.Oh I know. But it is so hard to comare on such a short course and when all the adrenaline is flowing through your veins...That's why I would tend to disregard the comments...
Yannis
2001 Volvo V70 T5 M SR, Classic Red/Graphite L, TME Stage II ECU, 3" Downpipe w/ Cat-back exhaust from MTE, Volvo Roadholding & Lowering Kit w/ Nivomats, 17" PEGASUS, Rear Spoiler, Dolby Surround Sound
Current company car: 2011 Volvo C70 T5, Electric Silver/ Black Sovereign Hide, Climate, Multimedia & Dynamic packages
Hi Jim,
What are your RPM shift points for the 0-60 & 1/4 mile?Thx
Those wishing to discuss my simulation work should contact me via e-mail
An explicit reponse from Volvo Customer relations UK :-"The 350NM of torque is available from approximately 1800RPM all the way up to 6000RPM, irrespective of gear."
I still will go with what I was told by Curt on the 'R' Hotline [1-877-2VOLVOR]. The torque is limited to 243 lb-ft in first and second gear. The quoted 258 lb-ft is almost certainly from a bench test of the engine. Of course, the attainment of 300 hp with the engine mounted in-vehicle is an impossibility, since you can't get the full 258 lb-ft in gears 1 and 2, and you can't reach 6000 rpm, because of rev limiting, in gears 3, 4 and 5.
Hans Nilsson himself told several of us differently on the phone. And, if it were true, the car would be faster from 0-60 than low 7's. Finally, dyno tests on my car showed torque starting to drop substantially at 5,000 RPM. Some of this might be a tight engine since I had only 1100 miles when tested, but I think it is also the beginning of the soft limiter in gears 3, 4, and 5. This limiter causes the car to very smoothly "top out" at around 6000 RPM in these gears.Dan
Quote, originally posted by bornslippy » An explicit reponse from Volvo Customer relations UK :- "The 350NM of torque is available from approximately 1800RPM all the way up to 6000RPM, irrespective of gear."
Quote, originally posted by bornslippy » An explicit reponse from Volvo Customer relations UK :- "The 350NM of torque is available from approximately 1800RPM all the way up to 6000RPM, irrespective of gear."
Yep, they are explicity wrong.
If Volvo UK believes this, get it in formal writing from them right away.
Don't get me wrong guys, I too suspect that something is wrong with a car of (allegedly) that spec only managing a 0-100KMH of 7.7s.The confirmation from Volvo is in writing (an email) and I have replied quoting the above two Volvo sources. We'll see what I hear back tommorrow...
Essentially they are "banged to rights"... or whatever the expression is...
I just configured a V70R on the UK site, and Cosmos Blue is a beautiful color! Great choice! Can you post some pictures of the car? At today's exchange rate (BP is up another 148 right now vs. dollar), it prices out to almost $75,000
The US dollar does seem a bit low - bit of a shame as I partly get paid in dollars ;-)My V70R was fully spec-ed at £44k ($80k) but I was comparing with an S6 Avant at £55k
($100k)and an RS6 at £61k ($110k)...8-)
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