Hey, bro'
I stronly object palying the racist card with me.
1. The Internet is color-blind. I do not know and moreover, do not care about the race of the poster.
2. I stated more than once - the Russian proverb is related to the differences in individual's taste. Nothing less, nothing more...It refers to two food items that cannot be any more different...

Please look eleswhere for the racist references...

The other two posts were from the car lounge, not OTF. I suppose you're now going to tell me that the rules in the car lounge are different?

Liberal rules on some forums are one thing. Racism, which is illegal in this country, is another. Or do you not think that the law applies to this forum?

You and fellow moderators need to clean this up, bro'.

Quote, originally posted by Needsdecaf »

However, I just don't understand how adding bro' everywhere furthers that message. I do not mean to be racist, I just don't understand the connection. Looking for enlightenment, not condemnation.

I provided it. I use the term to remind myself, and others, that we're able to overcome anything while we remain united. Just like the quote says.

Tell me where brotherhood is a crime and I'll stop.

I've been pretty patient here. I'm now going to sign-off to cool down; consider my next steps. Perhaps you should do the same, brother Needsdecaf.

And now back to the original program...

Chinese will follow the quality assurance process to the dot, when and if a proper process is adapted.
Though, if hypothetical Chinese based Volvo production facility adopts to the original/comparable production and QA processes (where I see no reasons for not to), they will be followed probably more so than in Sweden.

They most certainly are.

Quote, originally posted by TMonk »

You and fellow moderators need to clean this up, bro'.

There's nothing to clean up here. No attacks on anyone's part. That crap from the OTF? Yes.

Quote, originally posted by TMonk »

Tell me where brotherhood is a crime and I'll stop..

Never told you to stop. In fact, I never even came out and said anything about your use of the phrase before asking you about it. And in the end, only provided a suggestion that it may be mis-interpreted from your message. That's all. You're free to use it at your own will. My opinion, after all, is only my opinion.

Quote, originally posted by TMonk »

Perhaps you should do the same, brother Needsdecaf.

I do not need to cool down. This is not anything heated to me. You are free to do as you wish, I simply had a question.

Coming soon: PhMIC

To the best of my knowledge, no one in this thread has questioned whether Chinese workers are capable of manufacturing quality products. I think the question is whether a Communist owned manufacturer such as Geely (a) currently possesses the requisite knowledge to do so; and, probably more importantly, (b) whether they're actually willing to do it at the level necessary to make Volvo a player in the near-luxury car market.

I also don't think anyone in this thread has questioned the integrity, intelligence or ethic of an individual Chinese person.

Unfortunately, however, your comments almost seem to support the attitude that the workers are primarily responsible for building bad (or good) products. I can't speak for anyone else but I don't generally fault the workers. Try looking at the management of the companies for which they work and, more often than not, I think that is where you will find the source of most failures. Statements like yours (i.e., desire to excel of such degree that is long lost in US) typically accompany comments about how American workers don't know how to build a car that will truly compete with the Japanese or Germans. Those suggestions are steeped in ignorance.

American workers have the integrity, know-how and ability to produce products that will compete with the best in the world. It isn't the workers who failed GM, Ford and Chrysler. It is management who failed the workers. Some of the highest quality Toyotas, Hondas, Mercedes and BMWs are built in the States.

I also find it interesting that two of the three "grand marques" you cited are based in the US yet the we seem to have lost our desire to excel?

Quote, originally posted by gascos80 »

Second, calling modern China communist is just as misleading as applying this label to Obama (Munin, wink, wink).

Newsflash...modern China is a Communist nation. The comparison to Obama is insulting. Last time I checked, neither Obama nor the US government supports killing female babies or strictly censoring our individual access to the Internet and other media (YouTube, Voice of America, etc.).

Some (or all of) Obama's views may be too far to the left for you or others but he is not a Communist and, more importantly, the United States is not a Communist nation. I'll skip the civics lesson and assume you understand a bit about the way the US government works but suffice it to say, Obama doesn't make our laws. We elect representatives to vote on our behalf and make our laws. We, the people of the United States, elected those in power who both succeed and fail. We also have the power to remove them from office....none of which is true in China.

Oh, and the Chinese government does own Geely.

Quote, originally posted by gascos80 »

Third, I am not convinced that Swedes, for instance, have more employee's loyalty than Chinese. In my experience, it is quite opposite. The Europeans are much more "free spirited" and more prone to the deviations from the prescribed procedures. With the right production and quality control processes in place and with the right technology China makes the best, BEST, products on market.

Who made this a discussion about employee loyalty? As for the Swedes, most of our Volvos were built in Belgium.

Oh, and, are you nuts? When it comes to business, what part of German culture is remotely "free spirited?" German business is FAR from Octoberfest and weinerschnitzel...and I offer that comment from experience.

Can you give me an example of something engineered by the Chinese government that is BETTER than a comparable product engineered elsewhere? Last time I checked, IBM and Apple were publically owned American companies...and Sony...I'm pretty sure that they're Japanese.

How about an example of ANY government that manufactures a better car than a public or privately owned manufacturer? Trabant? Yugo? Bueller? Bueller?

-Eric

-Eric

That was in a thread about why 75% of Oklahoma students couldn't name the first president of the United States. http://forums.swedespeed.com/z...tid=0 Also in the OTF. So, your saying pop culture is now Racist?

OK, I'll try...

1. Throughout the thread, I maintain a position that both government or privately owned Chinese based COMPANIES (not individuals) possess an ability to produce quality products given proper production and QA processes, technology and equipment. Are we clear here?

2. In my limited personal knowledge Chinese based COMPANIES (not individuals) are willing to adhere to the world-class quality standards if they are provided with the means to do so, i.e. procedures, technology and equipment. Are we clear here as well? Thus, if Geely obtains Volvo technology and appropriate equipment I believe they will be able to produce the same cars as factories in Sweden and Belgium. By the way - last time I checked - ALL Volvo cars I drive were built in Gothenburg, Sweden. This factory builds XC90, S80, V70 and XC70 that as of today constitute the majority of Volvo sold worldwide. Check your facts, please.

3. I prefer to ignore your entire rant about comparing and contrasting the workers in different countries. This was NOT my point at all.

4. You completely twisted my reference to grand marques. My point is that the leaders in perspective fields move their production to China, which to me indicates that Chinese based companies can manufacture quality products. Nothing else, nothing more.

5. What is insulting to Obama? Again, you completely twisted my point.
To make it clear - NEITHER Obama, nor modern China can be characterized as communist. I do not COMPARE the two. And I definitely did not imply that either Obama or US are communist.
The newsfalsh - China IS NOT communist country. There is NO and never was one single communist country on this planet. Even USSR never claimed anything beyond the "advanced socialism". USSR was in a perpetual process of building one, but as we all know, never reached that point. Read the serious publications, you might learn something.

All right - I give up...

The rest of your rant is not worth of time to read...

Have a nice day...

It is you who is unclear. Please read or re-read the opening sentence of my response: "To the best of my knowledge, no one in this thread has questioned whether Chinese workers are capable of manufacturing quality products."

Capability isn't and never was the question. I won't restate the actual questions. You can go back and read them for yourself.

Quote, originally posted by gascos80 »

2. In my limited personal knowledge Chinese based COMPANIES (not individuals) are willing to adhere to the world-class quality standards if they are provided with the means to do so, i.e. procedures, technology and equipment. Are we clear here as well? Thus, if Geely obtains Volvo technology and appropriate equipment I believe they will be able to produce the same cars as factories in Sweden and Belgium.

Again -- this is NOT a question of whether they are capable of doing so.

Quote, originally posted by gascos80 »

By the way - last time I checked - ALL Volvo cars I drive were built in Gothenburg, Sweden. This factory builds XC90, S80, V70 and XC70 that as of today constitute the majority of Volvo sold worldwide. Check your facts, please.

My apologies, I originally posted this in the R forum and keep forgetting that it was moved. Gent actually builds (or built) upwards of 250K Volvos a year...and used to produce the S60.

Quote, originally posted by gascos80 »

3. I prefer to ignore your entire rant about comparing and contrasting the workers in different countries. This was NOT my point at all.

How can you make a comment like "China makes the best, BEST, products on market" or that people in Europe are more "free spirited" and now tell us that comparing countries was not your point? All I asked was for an example of something engineered in China that is the "best, BEST" in the market? Thanks for not responding. I completely agree.

Quote, originally posted by gascos80 »

4. You completely twisted my reference to grand marques. My point is that the leaders in perspective fields move their production to China, which to me indicates that Chinese based companies can manufacture quality products. Nothing else, nothing more.

You suggest that I read "serious publications" and make comments like that? Do you think Walmart promotes production of top quality goods...or are they possibly more concerned with value? Have you ever done (or tried to do) business with them? Do you believe that they have actually improved the quality of consumer goods by driving down price?

Sadly, most decisions to outsource production to China have little to do with quality and A LOT to do with cost. A lot of companies are forced into cheaper production if they want to sell to Walmart (as an example). The crap we get is a bi-product. Do companies care about quality? Absolutely. Does every company have to tailor its goods to Walmart? No -- that's just silly. I'm not suggesting that companies just farm out production to anyone willing to make a widget but the decision to turn to China isn't because they're producing the "best, BEST" stuff on the planet.

Quote, originally posted by gascos80 »

5. What is insulting to Obama? Again, you completely twisted my point. To make it clear - NEITHER Obama, nor modern China can be characterized as communist...The newsfalsh - China IS NOT communist country.

A little introduction to the People's Republic of China

Quote, originally posted by gascos80 »

There is NO and never was one single communist country on this planet. Even USSR never claimed anything beyond the "advanced socialism". USSR was in a perpetual process of building one, but as we all know, never reached that point. Read the serious publications, you might learn something.

That is your defense to all of this inane BS? That China isn't a truly 100% Marxist state? Where in any of my posts did I say that China fully implemented communism? Give me a break, man. Since this isn't a poli-sci forum, for argument sake let's agree that the government is 33% communist, 33% socialist and 33% authoritarian. Oh yeah...now I see how that changes everything you've said.

-Eric

SOURCE: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/23/us/23prison.html

I'd be more inclined to buy a Volvo if ownership transfer from Ford to Geely. That's just the way I feel.

If you spouted the same anti-government rhetoric in China as you do on SwedeSpeed, you would be behind bars. Or worse.

Tell that to the 1.2 million dead Iraqis who dared disagree with the US government's foreign policy.

Quote »

On Friday, 14 September 2007, ORB (Opinion Research Business), an independent polling agency located in London, published estimates of the total war casualties in Iraq since the US-led invasion of Iraq in 2003.[1] At over 1.2 million deaths (1,220,580), this estimate is the highest number published so far.

I support freedom, not fascism.

Ah yes, I forgot that China is the paragon of freedom.

You'd be more inclined to buy a car built in China simply because they house fewer criminals? Care to share your logic?

I guess I prefer to buy cars from countries with a national bikini team because that means they value...health and exercise. Yeah, that's it.

-Eric

http://www.autoblog.com/2009/1...-fac/

Of course, only time will tell.

-Eric

And what did we discuss all that time? The quality of Chinese built cars...

At least it is what got Munin so mad...

I was merely offering additional factual back-up to support the previous statements which were more loosely connected to the facts.

All I have done is to voice my opinion that I'm not interested in supporting a totalitarian regime any more than I have to. I haven't said a thing about quality. All a bit ironic given that you frequently like to defend yourself by accusing your critics of putting words in your mouth.

Munin, You are really amazing.
You managed to distort my 9 word statement...

I did NOT say that YOU discussed the quality, I sad that suggestions that China can build quality cars and comply with all applicable policies and procedures touched your nerves...

My reason for saying it was that INSTEAD of discussing the merrits you went on your rant effectively DISSMISSING any possibility...

Shall I look for the specific quotes?

Nah...you know what I am talking about...

Maybe this is not clear to you, but in English, when you write something like "at least it is what got Munin so mad...", then the pronoun "it" refers to the previous phrase. So if the previous phrase is "The quality of Chinese built cars", then English-proficient readers are going to assume you are linking the two phrases.

Maybe the problem isn't that everyone here is putting words in your mouth, but rather that the words make no sense.

Or maybe you are just back pedaling. Again.

Also, to be quite clear, I'm not mad and my nerves are quite fine. I'm just asserting my right as a consumer to not needlessly provide financial support to one of the most abusive regimes in the world.

OK, Munin,
As an English-proficient reader you should understand the difference between - "it"that got Munin mad, and "it" that Munin has not discussed.

So, yes, while you did not take my suggestion that China can make quality cars well (you see, I use more neutral words), you did NOT specifically addressed the merits of the discussion. I did link two phrases, but it does NOT mean that YOU have discussed the quality.

I think we both right, and I have one simple request: It is obvious that we have different speech and writing patterns. Please, RESPECT mine, just like I respect YOURS. They are logical, and you know it, you just have no guts to admit that because by some odd reason, you rather "die" than concede...
When it comes to your last point - I beg to differ. In my mind the BEST what consumer can do to CHANGE the regime is to make that regime being dependent on that consumer by buying the article in question.

And that where we just need to agree to disagree.

Whatever gascos. I think I'm interpreting what you said like most readers would.

In case you have forgotten, the topic of this thread is "would your opinion/image of Volvo cars change if they were made by Geely (or another Chinese firm)?" Note that the poll suggests a 10-to-1 ratio of respondents answering yes. Some of those might be driven by quality concerns, some might be driven by human rights concerns, some might be driven by other issues.

I've voiced my opinion about how my decisions as a consumer are affected by China's human rights record. So why drag me into a posting on the quality of Chinese-built cars at all when I haven't said anything about it? Or are you bothered that I don't limit my criticism to a discussion on quality?

And if you are not clear what my point is - ask again, like a regular polite person...

That's all...