View Full Version : T6 versus T8



johnjohn123
08-27-2014, 02:35 PM
Does anyone know the main differences between T6 and T8? in other words, is the T8 engine simply a T6 engine plus electric motor/battery?

Do we have EPA-certified MPG for either?

What is the top speed before switching over to combustion engine?

Does the T8 recharge only from plugin at home or does it recharge while driving like the Toyota/Lexus models do?

Grecian, Will, Chris, any help here?

thank you. very exciting week!

OCD Volvo Driver
08-27-2014, 08:20 PM
I thought the new XC90s only had 4 cylinder engines. I'm confused.

Spasoje
08-27-2014, 09:54 PM
They do. T6 and T8 refer to engine power relative to the entire lineup: the T6 is a supercharged and turbocharged 2.0L I4, and the T8 appears to be the same thing with an electric motor attached. There's a T5 that the rest of the world will get, which has the same 2.0L engine but turbocharged only.

From what I've read before final unveiling, the T8 should be able to charge both from driving and from plugging it in at home, like other plug-in hybrids do. :thumbup:

OCD Volvo Driver
08-27-2014, 10:27 PM
Thanks for the explanation!

XC60 RD
08-27-2014, 10:32 PM
They do. T6 and T8 refer to engine power relative to the entire lineup: the T6 is a supercharged and turbocharged 2.0L I4, and the T8 appears to be the same thing with an electric motor attached. There's a T5 that the rest of the world will get, which has the same 2.0L engine but turbocharged only.

From what I've read before final unveiling, the T8 should be able to charge both from driving and from plugging it in at home, like other plug-in hybrids do. :thumbup:

Charging batteries thru regenerative braking? ..........or achieved by engine power lost recovery?

TexaS60r
08-27-2014, 10:57 PM
And then there is the future KERS system....

GameGoneChange
08-28-2014, 08:58 AM
And then there is the future KERS system....

:D

Now THAT prospect gets me excited.
SPA XC60 with KERS, diesel and sub 5L/100km in real life driving conditions is the sweet spot for me.

cab
08-28-2014, 09:06 AM
Charging batteries thru regenerative braking? ..........or achieved by engine power lost recovery?

I haven't seen the details, but since the RWD is electric, I would assume the engine has to be able to charge the batteries or you could effectively lose your AWD capability once the batteries ran out.

As an aside, The system MAY be very similar to what Volvo did in Europe with the diesel plug-in hybrid V60. You can find a few reviews online for that car.

pattyweb
08-28-2014, 09:24 AM
Unless you specifically choose a mode that forces the engine to charge the battery (not efficient and takes a long long long time), the system will just maintain the battery at the depleted threshold.

Regenerative braking will always be putting some juice back into. Usually enough to get the car rolling again. You brake for red light or stop sign from 40 mph, and that gives you enough charge to get moving again to a few mph. Don't know exactly how much charge or braking is good for what speeds, every model is different.

So in theory, I would expect you will always have AWD for at least the first few mphs even with a depleted battery so on slippery roads it should always be beneficial.

Now, get back home with a depleted battery and need to plow up a long snow buried driveway, worst case, hopefully, you would be able to active offroad mode to accomplish that and even with a depleted battery, I'd hope that would force the gas engine to send power to the rear electric wheels. But with a depleted battery, depending on what you need to plow through or how stuck you are, there will most likely be limits. The question is what size alternator/generator has Volvo sized at the front? It's a delicate balancing act trying to get max efficiency out of the front and the back without unneedingly bogging down the front for rare situations.

napster
08-28-2014, 10:51 AM
Unless you specifically choose a mode that forces the engine to charge the battery (not efficient and takes a long long long time), the system will just maintain the battery at the depleted threshold.

Regenerative braking will always be putting some juice back into. Usually enough to get the car rolling again. You brake for red light or stop sign from 40 mph, and that gives you enough charge to get moving again to a few mph. Don't know exactly how much charge or braking is good for what speeds, every model is different.

So in theory, I would expect you will always have AWD for at least the first few mphs even with a depleted battery so on slippery roads it should always be beneficial.

Now, get back home with a depleted battery and need to plow up a long snow buried driveway, worst case, hopefully, you would be able to active offroad mode to accomplish that and even with a depleted battery, I'd hope that would force the gas engine to send power to the rear electric wheels. But with a depleted battery, depending on what you need to plow through or how stuck you are, there will most likely be limits. The question is what size alternator/generator has Volvo sized at the front? It's a delicate balancing act trying to get max efficiency out of the front and the back without unneedingly bogging down the front for rare situations.

T6 or T8 is what I am also trying to decide on. I like the 315hp of the T6 but like the 400hp of the T8 better.

How will the T8 be better than the T6 on highway driving. Once the electric motor runs out of juice during a road trip then I would think that the motor and associated components become dead weight for the gasoline engine to have to haul.

At 70mph will the gasoline engine be able to power the car and charge the hybrid system at the same time?

Also, will the T6 have AWD?

pattyweb
08-28-2014, 11:08 AM
T6 or T8 is what I am also trying to decide on. I like the 315hp of the T6 but like the 400hp of the T8 better.

How will the T8 be better than the T6 on highway driving. Once the electric motor runs out of juice during a road trip then I would think that the motor and associated components become dead weight for the gasoline engine to have to haul.

I wonder if you'd even be able to tell the difference on the gas engine at highway speeds between a T6 or T8. No doubt in electric mode it would be super smooth but not for very long.


At 70mph will the gasoline engine be able to power the car and charge the hybrid system at the same time?

At 70mph, I'm sure there's a mode that the gas engine moves the car and charges the battery but this is not efficient at all, less efficient than even a T6 at highway speeds. You can't have it all. It's why manufacturers don't do this by default, it kills those high mpg ratings. But people want to do it because at their destination they know they will be city driving and can't recharge. But really, the smarter thing to do is not use electric at highway speeds and SAVE that electricity for the end. Using it all up and then constantly asking the gas engine to recharge it over and over is not going to give you those high efficiency numbers. At it's soul, you have to remmeber it's a 23-24 combined mpg gas suv and a 90'mpg' 25 mile range ev. Driving on the highway and charging the battery is going to cost you highway mpgs, just unclear how much.

Chevrolet actually added a new mode called "EV Hold" to the volt to help people better CONSERVE their electricity for the right moments. People were using mountain mode on the highway to charge their batteries and it hurts efficiency. Now it's recommended to switch to EV Hold when getting on the highway which conserves the battery at it's current state till you reach your destination.



Also, will the T6 have AWD?

I believe the T6 is AWD.

GrecianVolvo
08-28-2014, 11:09 AM
At 70mph will the gasoline engine be able to power the car and charge the hybrid system at the same time?
Without a doubt. Plus, at 70 mph, the car will have loads of kinetic energy in its favor that it will not need a major effort even to pass.


Also, will the T6 have AWD?
Absolutely.

cab
08-28-2014, 11:17 AM
All, the V60 plug-in hybrid was (I think) in many ways a test platform for a lot of the T8 and I suspect the T8 modes of operations could be SIMILAR but perhaps improved or expanded. In that vein, here is some info from Volvo on the V60 which may be relevant to some degree to the new T8:

V60 diesel plug-in as sold in Europe:
The front wheels of the V60 Plug-in Hybrid are powered by a five-cylinder 2.4-litre turbo diesel producing 215 hp and maximum torque is 440 Nm. The car has a six-speed automatic transmission.

The rear axle is powered by an electric motor producing 70 horsepower. The electric motor is supplied with power from an 11.2 kWh lithium-ion battery pack installed under the floor of the load compartment.

The sophisticated and exceptionally compact battery pack consists of 10 modules each containing 20 cells. An integrated computer monitors the system and compares temperature and charge level in each of the 200 cells. The battery pack also has an integrated water-cooling system driven by the car's climate unit.

Three driving modes - three cars in one

The driver selects the required driving mode via three buttons that give the car three entirely different temperaments: Pure, Hybrid or Power.

In Pure mode the car is powered solely by its electric motor as much as possible. If the battery pack has been recharged with electricity from renewable sources, its range is up to 32 miles with no carbon dioxide emissions from the tailpipe. The electric range varies with terrain, climate and driving style.

Hybrid is the standard setting whenever the car is started. The diesel engine and electric motor cooperate to ensure optimal balance between driving pleasure and environmental footprint. CO2 emission (NEDC, mixed driving cycle for certification) is just 49g/km and it has a total range of up to 621 miles.

In Power mode the technology is optimised to give the car the maximum possible power. The diesel engine and electric motor have a total power output of 215+70 horsepower and maximum torque of 440+200Nm. The electric motor's lightning-quick torque delivery contributes to the car's acceleration from 0 to 62mph in 6.2 seconds.

Save battery power for later

The driver can choose to save battery power in order to drive on pure electricity later on, for instance in an urban green zone or in the heart of a city.

When Save is activated, the on-board system ensures that there is always sufficient charge for driving later in Pure mode. If necessary, the high-tension alternator will charge the battery pack so there is sufficient capacity for driving in Pure mode.

The aim is that the Save mode should ensure there is sufficient battery power for about 12.5 miles of driving on electricity alone.

Charge at home - cooling or heating in advance

The V60 Plug-in Hybrid can be recharged from a regular power outlet (230V/6A, 10A or 16A) at home or in a car park. Recharging time varies with amperage. A full charge with 10A takes 4.5 hours. This is cut to 3.5 hours with 16A, while a 6A charge takes 7.5 hours.

It is also possible while recharging the car to heat or cool the passenger compartment to provide a more comfortable start of your journey. This also means that more battery power is used for actually propelling the car.

The pre-conditioning function can also cool the batteries. The ideal operating temperature for the battery pack is 20-30C. This means that cooling prior to driving is very important in order to maximise battery charge and thus also range.

The V60 Plug-in Hybrid has two heating systems. In electric mode the car uses a PTC (Positive Temperature Coefficient) air heater. The car also has a diesel-powered heater.

Better pulling power with four-wheel drive (AWD)

Pressing the AWD button activates the electrical four-wheel drive. Instead of the mechanical power transfer of conventional four-wheel drive, the central control unit distributes power between the diesel-driven front wheels and the electrically-driven rear axle. The electric four-wheel drive system has been designed to provide better grip when starting and when driving on slippery roads, for instance in snow or mud.

However, owing to the electric motor's lower power, torque to the rear wheels is limited and four-wheel drive is active up to 75mph.

When four-wheel drive is activated, the diesel engine operates continuously and the generator ensures that the charge level in the battery pack is sufficient to supply the rear axle with the necessary power.

Since electric four-wheel drive is only activated by the driver when necessary, it is more economical than conventional permanent four-wheel drive.

napster
08-28-2014, 12:05 PM
Gentlemen thank you for the explanations:

Let me see if I understand what you are all saying regard to awd for this new XC90.

The T6 will have awd like the current cars. It will be defaulted to a 90/10 spilt in favor of fwd. If slippage is detected then more power is transferred to the rear wheels.

The gasoline engine in the T8 will be fwd only. AWD will be provided by the rear axle electric motor exclusively. Lets say ....if for some reason the electric motor is not able to function then the T8 will only be fwd.

Conradi
08-28-2014, 12:16 PM
Yes, you're right.

Initially I thought the hybrid AWD is some kind of gimmick, some kind of marketing feature because the electric motor is on the rear wheels. But the V60 PIH has quite some AWD potential.

cab
08-28-2014, 12:30 PM
Gentlemen thank you for the explanations:

Let me see if I understand what you are all saying regard to awd for this new XC90.

The T6 will have awd like the current cars. It will be defaulted to a 90/10 spilt in favor of fwd. If slippage is detected then more power is transferred to the rear wheels.

The gasoline engine in the T8 will be fwd only. AWD will be provided by the rear axle electric motor exclusively. Lets say ....if for some reason the electric motor is not able to function then the T8 will only be fwd.

Napster, I THINK, you are correct based on what the V60 did, but we don't appear to have any final info on the T8. In addition, the V60 appeared to have an AWD "button" which you had to push to engage an AWD mode. In some ways that is good (as Volvo tries to sell) and in others not so good (i.e. you "need" awd suddenly and it isn't instantly available, etc).

napster
08-28-2014, 12:40 PM
Napster, I THINK, you are correct based on what the V60 did, but we don't appear to have any final info on the T8. In addition, the V60 appeared to have an AWD "button" which you had to push to engage an AWD mode. In some ways that is good (as Volvo tries to sell) and in others not so good (i.e. you "need" awd suddenly and it isn't instantly available, etc).

At first reading, to me this was worrying about having awd provided by an electric motor.

In realilty my current S80 has been driven in fwd mode for at least 90% of the miles I have put on it actually probably more than 90%.

The real benefit to the electric motor is that it not only provides awd but acceleration assist (more power) to the primary gasoline engine as well.

cue003
08-28-2014, 01:33 PM
Let's hope volvo thought through the AWD approach of the T8 to its fullest with slippery conditions, water on the highway and you have wheel slippage, cornering, etc. no power at rear wheels at anytime means the car does not have AWD. And I am not sure if they can sell a car with AWD that is only AWD for 20% of the time. Or no AWD above 75mph etc. I want 24x7 AWD. And I want it to switch front to rear and left to right as needed depending on road conditions etc.

evilnewbie
08-28-2014, 02:02 PM
I am curious on how Volvo intends to do the T6 and T8 pricing... we have two camps...

Camp A (BMW, MB, Porsche): High prices and costly upgrades...

Camp B (Infiniti, Audi, Lexus, VW): Moderate prices and affordable upgrades...

The starting MSRP on the T6 is 48k which goes along to Camp B (Moderate pricing) but what are the costs of upgrades... Camp B upgrades are about less than 10k for a fully loaded hybrid SUV... which means a fully loaded T6 is less than 58k if it follows Camp B.... the fully loaded Camp B is anywhere between 53k to 61k and if the T6 is already 58k... problem is, what is the T8 going to be? It may be starting at 66k to a fully loaded 76k... which prices it higher than Camp B fully loaded... and into mid-level Camp A pricing... which then makes the T8 almost irrelevant because the difference between a T6 and a T8 is 16k?!??!! This is ALL guessing... an electric motor is not going to save you 16k for the entire life of the car... but lets say a T8 starts at 58k and goes to 68k fully loaded... a difference of 10k which will maybe break even... the only thing I can think that might save it is the Tax Credits (and how much?)...

napster
08-28-2014, 02:47 PM
I am curious on how Volvo intends to do the T6 and T8 pricing... we have two camps...

Camp A (BMW, MB, Porsche): High prices and costly upgrades...

Camp B (Infiniti, Audi, Lexus, VW): Moderate prices and affordable upgrades...

The starting MSRP on the T6 is 48k which goes along to Camp B (Moderate pricing) but what are the costs of upgrades... Camp B upgrades are about less than 10k for a fully loaded hybrid SUV... which means a fully loaded T6 is less than 58k if it follows Camp B.... the fully loaded Camp B is anywhere between 53k to 61k and if the T6 is already 58k... problem is, what is the T8 going to be? It may be starting at 66k to a fully loaded 76k... which prices it higher than Camp B fully loaded... and into mid-level Camp A pricing... which then makes the T8 almost irrelevant because the difference between a T6 and a T8 is 16k?!??!! This is ALL guessing... an electric motor is not going to save you 16k for the entire life of the car... but lets say a T8 starts at 58k and goes to 68k fully loaded... a difference of 10k which will maybe break even... the only thing I can think that might save it is the Tax Credits (and how much?)...

If the price difference is a lot then Volvo might add more standard equipment to the T8 to justify the premium in addition to the electric motor setup.

What is the price difference between a regular Camry and hybrid Camry with the same level of equipment? A few thousand dollars at most.

The limited edition T6 is around $65k I think and that's with all of the options checked.

As with any car once you check all of the options the price gets into the "Twilight Zone" and leaves what we consider a reasonable price range far behind.

I think Volvo would be wise to add a reasonable premium for the electric setup and then let the customer price out the non standard options that they want.

pattyweb
08-28-2014, 03:01 PM
I think Volvo would be wise to add a reasonable premium for the electric setup and then let the customer price out the non standard options that they want.

The problem with that is that then it is going to be harder to find exactly what you want and dealers will be left with even more expensive low volume cars sitting on their lots. I can understand why they do it.

What would be nice though is if Volvo at least allowed custom ordering or OSD for less equipped T8s.

evilnewbie
08-28-2014, 04:04 PM
If the price difference is a lot then Volvo might add more standard equipment to the T8 to justify the premium in addition to the electric motor setup.

What is the price difference between a regular Camry and hybrid Camry with the same level of equipment? A few thousand dollars at most.

The limited edition T6 is around $65k I think and that's with all of the options checked.

As with any car once you check all of the options the price gets into the "Twilight Zone" and leaves what we consider a reasonable price range far behind.

I think Volvo would be wise to add a reasonable premium for the electric setup and then let the customer price out the non standard options that they want.

I agree that 10-16k doesn't justify an electric motor setup and nothing else... I hope Volvo doesn't go down that road but I am real worried about that because there are hints from the media that it is going down that road... The limited edition T6, I think is just an overpriced T6 with some additions like leather surfaces that is otherwise plastic but nothing in additional equipment... so to me a fully loaded non-first edition around 58k seems right... I don't think that letting full customization is a good route like BMW and Mercedes because it causes individual options to be more expensive than packaged options...I hope I am wrong about T8 pricing from what the media is reporting and the media seems to be wrong a lot lately....

TexaS60r
08-28-2014, 08:12 PM
an overpriced T6 with some additions like leather surfaces that is otherwise plastic but nothing in additional equipment...

Uh, What? My Volvos have all had far superior leather seats and surfaces than most other brands.

evilnewbie
08-28-2014, 08:25 PM
What I a saying is that the first editions will have more leather than non-first editions... And the premium price you are paying for that in the first edition is overpriced....

TexaS60r
08-28-2014, 08:37 PM
I disagree. I think the first edition is a very competitive pricing consider the prestige and packaging.

zircular
08-28-2014, 08:57 PM
Without a doubt. Plus, at 70 mph, the car will have loads of kinetic energy in its favor that it will not need a major effort even to pass.


OK, you lost me with that one. Kinetic energy scales with the square of velocity, meaning that you expend incrementally more energy to accelerate another 5mph (for example) vs. the previous 5. Unless you were talking about having a fully-spooled KERS?

Snowie
08-29-2014, 11:27 AM
I agree that 10-16k doesn't justify an electric motor setup and nothing else... I hope Volvo doesn't go down that road but I am real worried about that because there are hints from the media that it is going down that road... The limited edition T6, I think is just an overpriced T6 with some additions like leather surfaces that is otherwise plastic but nothing in additional equipment... so to me a fully loaded non-first edition around 58k seems right... I don't think that letting full customization is a good route like BMW and Mercedes because it causes individual options to be more expensive than packaged options...I hope I am wrong about T8 pricing from what the media is reporting and the media seems to be wrong a lot lately....


Who says the T8 is marketed for US only?
The Volvo v60 D6 cost like 60.000Euro in Europe but there are huge tax benifits in some countries.
For example in Norway a BMW 328i starts from 514.000NOK and a Tesla S is about 450.000 NOK
But with the Tesla you are allowed to park free with charging station in the capital, u are allowed to use the Taxi lanes. its tax free, no import tax etc..
Only in road toll fee u would save like 2500NOK / month if u work in Oslo and live outside.

Sooner or later US will experiance the same. so gas cost is only a "small" part.
China where the biggest market is, They are limiting the engines to 4 cylinders before there are much higher tax.
In Sweden they are talking about the T8 will be the first volvo that breaks the 1.000.000SEK mark fully loaded.
If i could buy a XC90 T6 AWD for your 50.000 USD i would buy one tomorrow!
My Volvo V40 D4 was more then 50.000 USD ;)

Conradi
08-29-2014, 12:02 PM
In Sweden they are talking about the T8 will be the first Volvo that breaks the 1.000.000SEK mark fully loaded.

The Porsche Cayenne E-Hybrid starts at $76K, or average €85K in Europe. For that money you get a 6-cylinder and 416 HP combined. I believe the XC90 (and later the X5 Hybrid) will starts a little below that level. If you add all the First Edition goodies ;-)
By-the-way, due to CO2-taxes, the XC90 is in our country the first Volvo breaking the €100K mark.

cab
08-30-2014, 12:34 PM
Since folks are comparing plug-ins vs. non plug-ins from other manufacturers lets look at one of the most popular cars on the road: The Honda Accord. Prices:

$22k - Base LX
$29k - Hybrid
$39k - Plug-in Hybrid

Now the Accord PHEV is a bot of a sad example and they sell very poorly, but it does give you an example of deltas out there. Honestly, luxury makes are potentially better positioned with regard to plug-ins because there is a lot of wiggle room on pricing. My guess is the Accord PHEV comes loaded with every option to try and subsidize the overall cost.

Honestly, GM and Nissan really have the leg up in this market as they'll be introducing their second gen cars soon while other automakers are introducing their first.

pattyweb
08-30-2014, 01:09 PM
A another good example is the Fusion models. If you look at the fuel comparisons, you get most of your fuel savings with a hybrid. Going further with a plugin model (despite those deceivingly high MPGe ratings) only saves a little bit more, but it takes a lot longer for that part to pay for itself.

FuelEconomy.org Fusion Comparison (http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=34661&id=34312&id=34089)

Fusion -> Hybrid = $550 savings
Hybrid -> Plugin = $200 savings

FuelEconomy.org Accord Comparison (http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=34313&id=34395&id=33557)

Accord -> Hybrid = $700 savings
Hybrid -> Plugin = $150 savings

cab
08-31-2014, 04:36 PM
The thing about plug-in hybrids and fuel economy comparisons is that your average MPG is so dependent on your daily driving pattern, your costs on your own electric rate, and even the equivalent cost for gas at any given moment. As an example, I get about 38 miles of range on a charge with our Volt. IF I drove 38 miles or less a day, I would use ZERO gas...ever. Given that it takes just under 13 kwh to charge my car and I pay 0.09 a kw for electricity that is $1.17 per charge for that 38 miles. Now let's say a gallon of gas costs $3.51 (for simplicity sake) - essentially I can charge my Volt 3 times for the cost of one gallon of gas and I will get (effectively) 114 mpg in terms of cost (a bit more if gas costs more and a bit less if it costs less). If I drive less than 38 miles a day I am leaving "savings" on the table (as compared to a gas powered car). If I drive more than 38 miles a day, the car switches to gas and those miles average about 35 mpg on the gas engine. Lost of variables which make the MPGe calculation a bit goofy.

Beyond that, you get things like less frequent oil changes, air filters, brake jobs, etc. (i.e. I have only done one oil change in 2 years and 25K miles on the Volt and won't do another before I turn it in at 3 yrs/36k miles).

Now, the Volt is unique in that it's full performance is available when on battery unlike the Fusion, Accord, Volvo, Plug-in Prius, etc. (i.e. it doesn't require the gas engine be engaged for "full power").