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Ask VCNA thread

89K views 322 replies 76 participants last post by  cdauerer 
#1 ·
in this thread, we met a fellow swedspeeder who works for VCNA and has been kind enough to offer an ear to what we as a community have to offer.

Please do not go JRL on him, and post what you think are the most urgent issues (safety related, or pandemic-type failures) rather than individual concerns

thanks all
 
#152 ·
Re: (rogersampson)

Re: slave cylinder and torque limiting valve. I would agree, not being able to replace it externally without removing the gearbox makes no sense from a service point of view. Unfortunately there is nothing I can do to change that.


As for repeat repairs, I would be willing to bet that in the case you refer to, (3 slave cylinder replacements at <25K miles) the slave cylinder was replaced but the torque limiting valve was not. Hence, as a result of this SS inquiry, we are now packaging the two components together, to avoid repeat repairs.
 
#153 ·
Re: (Big Will)

Re: Big Will and old AWD and Nivomats.
The original AWD system was launched in 1997 on a hand full of MY97 850 AWD wagons sold in Canada. US introduction was in the 98 model year on V70 AWD and V70 XC AWD. As you know, it utilized the technology of the times, the viscous coupling. Ironically, when the project was conceived, annual production was assumed to be 5000 AWD units. The eventual success of the XC concept surprised more than a few people at Volvo. But I digress. The most sensitive thing about the system was the fact that the tire sizes had to be identical. The cars had a special spare tire which was indeed a so called "tempa spare" yet had the same outside diameter as the regular tires. If a tire was replaced with the wrong size tire (happens more often than you might think), the viscous unit would be destroyed in short order. We responded by notifiying our dealers and tire companies that tire size matching was very critical on these models. The info was already in the owners manual, but relatively few people read that.

Nivomats. At the risk of dating myself, I was around when Nivomats were first introduced in volume on 760s, 780s and then 960s. They work great in that they are simple. Load car, car sinks. Drive car, Nivomats level car out. No extra pumps, hoses, etc. Completely self contained and VERY expensive to replace. Now, once the cars age and replacement is necessary, a common customer reaction was, "the rear shocks are how much????", followed by "is there a cheaper alternative?". Cheaper is a relative term as in the case of the Nivomats we actually did convince our colleagues at Volvo in Gothenburg to develop an alternative. The fix was not as easy as just replacing the Nivomats with standard shocks. No, the rear springs had to be replaced as well as the Nivomats provided a certain amount of lift all the time, so the rear springs on Nivomat cars were weaker. Removing the Nivomats and just putting in regular shocks resulted in a sagging rear end. So the initial expense was high for springs and standard shocks (though not as high as replacing the Nivomats) but subsequent to that, only the shocks would need to be replaced. Of course this type of fix is always complicated by the build plate under the hood which would describe what spare parts should be used....

Thus, there is some understanding of the request to replace 4C shocks with an alternative. In the discussion I had today on this subject, I learned that 4C is very integrated into the various systems of the car, especially in regards to all the inputs. They have promised me an answer, I will come back on this one.
 
#154 ·
Re: (cdauerer)

Quote, originally posted by cdauerer »


Thus, there is some understanding of the request to replace 4C shocks with an alternative. In the discussion I had today on this subject, I learned that 4C is very integrated into the various systems of the car, especially in regards to all the inputs. They have promised me an answer, I will come back on this one.

Chris this would be greatly appreciated if you could get a reasonable and sensible answer for us on this topic,
regardless of some thought s on this thread, some of us have faith and hope to see positive results, Thank you again.
 
#155 ·
Re: (cdauerer)

Quote, originally posted by cdauerer »
Hence, as a result of this SS inquiry, we are now packaging the two components together, to avoid repeat repairs.

Bravo! The forum works. http://********************/smile/emthup.gif
Thanks for all the follow through, Chris.
Scott
 
#156 ·
Re: (cdauerer)

Thank you and thanks for taking the time to at least repond in some detail! http://********************/smile/emthup.gif
JRL
 
#158 ·
Thanks for responding to my questions Chris.

I have heard of an Gen 1 XC car here in Sweden that was not equipped with nivomats. I'm still a fan of them in general and like the concept but agree with others that it would be good to have options (less expensive) as these cars age.

As to the AWD - yes indeed, the info is in the owners manual, or actually it's a separate booklet. One of the things I noticed over the years was that many dealers did not rotate tires at regular service intervals and the average Volvo owner did not know enough to request that they be rotated. In addition, there is/was no service interval for the gear oil inside the angle gear/rear differential (and unlike BMW, the Volvo engineers didn't think it would be a good idea to provide a drain plug on either of these 2 components
). These things resulted, I believe, in a lot of premature failures of angle gears and other AWD components.

Thanks again for posting on here. http://********************/smile/emthup.gif
 
#159 ·
Re: (cdauerer)

Quote, originally posted by cdauerer »


Rather than speculate in a public forum, we need more facts. Therefore, after discussion with the technical team, we decided to make the recommendation I stated. IF you experience this issue, take it to a Volvo retailer for diagnosis. We have instructed our Tech help desk that this issue may come up. The retailer will likely call us if they cannot find a problem. If the technical help desk cannot figure it out, we will arrange for an inspection by one of our Field Technical Specialists.

This is a truly professional and outstanding response! Thanks Chris.
 
#160 ·
Re: (cdauerer)

TTT
 
#163 ·
Re: (cdauerer)

Quote, originally posted by cdauerer »
Re: uphill brake loss complaint.
I have read through most of the posts, as have some of our technical staff. The problem is that people may describe it differently (e.g. brake loss vs. hard pedal), dealers may have difficulty duplicating the issue, multiple causes can result in such a symptom or similar symptoms (again loss vs. hard pedal).

Rather than speculate in a public forum, we need more facts. Therefore, after discussion with the technical team, we decided to make the recommendation I stated. IF you experience this issue, take it to a Volvo retailer for diagnosis. We have instructed our Tech help desk that this issue may come up. The retailer will likely call us if they cannot find a problem. If the technical help desk cannot figure it out, we will arrange for an inspection by one of our Field Technical Specialists.

The issue is that the ABS triggers ice mode when it is not appropriate. It's that simple. There is nothing a retailer can do to "fix" the problem. I've sold the second V70R we had years ago now, but I did experience the problem (which is one of the reasons we sold it soon after; we purchased two V70Rs, brand new). Ice mode gives a hard pedal with almost no braking action (read up on 4-channel ABS system ice mode to understand).

Under certain conditions (and on dry pavement, in my case the car was even on R-compound tires), the R ABS system incorrectly triggers ice mode. Repeating the problem is very tough. I have many cars with 4ch ABS, and have tracked, autocrossed and driven them all very hard at times, and only on the V70R did I ever experience an ABS ice mode activation on dry pavement.

There is nothing Volvo can do except redesign the ABS programming.
 
#165 ·
Re: (ChuckB)

Quote, originally posted by ChuckB »

There is nothing Volvo can do except redesign the ABS programming.

Perhaps they could just remove ice mode?
 
#166 ·
Re: Ask VCNA thread (Farbon Ciber5)

At 83,400 km (52000 miles), my angle gear internals failed yesterday evening during regular acceleration (not floored) on a gradual sweeping right turn. It made a horrible clunk/snapping noise followed immediately by a grinding noise.

This, after having had the angle gear re-sealed and collar gear replaced less than 2000 kms ago (my used but not yet failed collar gear was one of the ones that adykes had analyzed).

Quote from the dealer is $2400 to replace the angle gear.

Currently feeling that this will be the first and only Volvo product I ever own.


Cheers,

J
 
#167 ·
Re: Ask VCNA thread (soupandspoons)

This sounds a litttle suspicious to me. To my knowledge no one has physically torn up the bevel gears themselves, even with higher horsepower modifications.

I would certainly want to see the damaged internals. More than likely another failed sleeve or collar which they have already replaced and would therefore be on the hook to replace again, if less than 1 year from past replacement.

The sleeve may be torn up to the extent they can not get it off, and will be easier for them to just replace the angle gear on your nickel. The root cause is still the sleeve, if that is the case.
 
#168 ·
Re: (ChuckB)

Quote, originally posted by ChuckB »


The issue is that the ABS triggers ice mode when it is not appropriate. It's that simple. There is nothing a retailer can do to "fix" the problem. I've sold the second V70R we had years ago now, but I did experience the problem (which is one of the reasons we sold it soon after; we purchased two V70Rs, brand new). Ice mode gives a hard pedal with almost no braking action (read up on 4-channel ABS system ice mode to understand).

Under certain conditions (and on dry pavement, in my case the car was even on R-compound tires), the R ABS system incorrectly triggers ice mode. Repeating the problem is very tough. I have many cars with 4ch ABS, and have tracked, autocrossed and driven them all very hard at times, and only on the V70R did I ever experience an ABS ice mode activation on dry pavement.

There is nothing Volvo can do except redesign the ABS programming.
In one of the threads regarding the uphill brake loss i posted a link about a Jeep recall with just about the same loss of brake symptoms. All they did was re-program a module ( i believe). If Jeep figured it out why can't Volvo?
 
#169 ·
Re: (cdauerer)

Quote, originally posted by cdauerer »

Rather than speculate in a public forum, we need more facts.

Chris, any chance volvo would be interested in finding a used R and donating it to a tech to drive around as a personal vehicle until it dies? There's a good chance he would experience most of the common issues reported here. The difficulty is not everything pops up when the car is at the dealer, and gremlins hide very well when they see a mechanic coming
I've had my R for 65k miles and only experienced the uphill brake loss 3-4 times.

Even though volvo doesn't make the R anymore, there could be things to learn from such an experience that can prove to be valuable for ongoing service as well as tomorrow's designs.

Modified by S60R1 at 3:13 PM 6-26-2009
 
#170 ·
Re: (S60R1)

Has anyone bothered to notice that Chris hasn't answered anything for nearly a month now?
How long did you think this experiment would last anyway?
 
#172 ·
Re: (S60R1)

With 171+ posts, this entire thread is now useless and unreadable. As I said early in this thread's creation, the ADMIN (NEEDSDECAF?) must go thru this thread weekly and delete every frivolous comment and only leave behind, SIMPLY, the question, and VCOA's relevant answer.
 
#173 ·
Re: (ChuckB)

Quote, originally posted by ChuckB »


The issue is that the ABS triggers ice mode when it is not appropriate. It's that simple. There is nothing a retailer can do to "fix" the problem. I've sold the second V70R we had years ago now, but I did experience the problem (which is one of the reasons we sold it soon after; we purchased two V70Rs, brand new). Ice mode gives a hard pedal with almost no braking action (read up on 4-channel ABS system ice mode to understand).

Under certain conditions (and on dry pavement, in my case the car was even on R-compound tires), the R ABS system incorrectly triggers ice mode. Repeating the problem is very tough. I have many cars with 4ch ABS, and have tracked, autocrossed and driven them all very hard at times, and only on the V70R did I ever experience an ABS ice mode activation on dry pavement.

There is nothing Volvo can do except redesign the ABS programming.

My problem with the ice-mode explanation is that I have had my R on ice and experienced ice-mode and it does NOT feel like what I get when going uphill when the brakes cease to function. This is NOT just an R problem either since the last time my R was in the shop for this issue I had a 2007 XC70 and it did the exact same thing in the exact same place. My car does this with fair regularity on one particular road, perhaps 10% of the time in this one spot. The oddest part about it is that there is zero noise from the ABS system.
 
#174 ·
Re: (cdauerer)

Quote, originally posted by cdauerer »
OK, first report back on the issues that FEO and others raised. Met with our tech support department after giving them a week to dig into this, including the SS posts.

Collar Gear Issue
Described within Volvo as the AWD sleeve. This seems to be an area with a lot of misinformation. Facts are as follows:
1. There was no "new AWD unit" introduced on 6 speed automatic R cars.
2. New lubricant was introduced in September of 2006 AWD unit production.
3. A new, hardened AWD sleeve was introduced in late November 2006 AWD unit production.
No known failures of the new AWD sleeve have occurred since introduction.
Sold as a spare part in kit form with special grease for the splines. If anyone here has experienced a failure of this new sleeve we want to know about it.

Sorry for the late reply on this, I have been in and out of the country the last few months.

1. There was in fact a new angle gear introduced with the the 6 speed auto, but the internals are not different, just the input shaft. The input shafts of the angle gears on the 6 speed auto and the units shipped on the M66 and AW55 equipped models are not the same. The concern focused around why the collar gear on the "new" angle gear appears to have a better fitment and is made from a much stronger material than the one the M66/AW55 transmissions have. I agree this topic confused people to no end, my partner and I are the ones who did the analysis on the collars/sleeves, so if you have any specific questions, please feel free to contact me directly.

2. Can you clarify the reason for the change in lubricant?

3. What is VCNA willing to do for out-of warranty R owners who experience a sleeve failure? Obviously there was a deficiency in the design of the original sleeve, hence the new part.
 
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