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    1. #1
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      Quote Originally Posted by Shopaholic View Post
      My next wish is, a flexible body metal sheet that could change its shape slightly, to be muscular or soft rounded on your choice. Of cource, color can be changed too, which is relatively easier.

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      Quote Originally Posted by Shopaholic View Post
      Perhaps higher insurance rates to cover the risk of system failure or ineffectiveness in all avoidance scenarios. It's one thing for your car to recognize an obstacle at 22 mph and slam on the breaks just in time, missing it by inches. It's quite another for the car to handle all the driving duties, recognizing all potential hazards and react quickly and appropriately at higher speeds.

      Here's an example: just today on my way to work, a VW Touareg raced out from an entrance ahead and on my right hand side, attempting to cross two lanes of 45 mph traffic (in front of me), to go the opposite direction. The VW driver did not see me at all and accelerated straight for my V60's passenger side, giving me a split second to react! My options were 1) slam on the brakes and hope to stop in time to avoid getting "t-boned", but I certainly would not have been successful at our converging speeds on loose salted asphalt, or 2) make an extreme evasive maneuver to scoot around the front of the VW, though putting me momentarily into the on coming traffic's lane (over the double yellow line). My reaction/decision: I took a snap look and saw no oncoming traffic, then did a snap left than right slalom around the front of the VW without braking. The result: the Touareg just narrowly missed hitting my right rear corner (it never braked), but missed just the same. My concern about self driving cars: If I'm chilling-out reading the morning news or making tea while my car manages my commute automatically, what would have been the result?

      My opinion: Drive your car, have someone else drive you, or take public transportation! If you're too lazy and driving is too much for you, or you're very tired, or maybe you just need to do be doing something else at that time, SIMPLY DO NOT DRIVE!
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      Quote Originally Posted by Bmo Pete View Post
      Perhaps higher insurance rates to cover the risk of system failure or ineffectiveness in all avoidance scenarios. It's one thing for your car to recognize an obstacle at 22 mph and slam on the breaks just in time, missing it by inches. It's quite another for the car to handle all the driving duties, recognizing all potential hazards and react quickly and appropriately at higher speeds.

      Here's an example: just today on my way to work, a VW Touareg raced out from an entrance ahead and on my right hand side, attempting to cross two lanes of 45 mph traffic (in front of me), to go the opposite direction. The VW driver did not see me at all and accelerated straight for my V60's passenger side, giving me a split second to react! My options were 1) slam on the brakes and hope to stop in time to avoid getting "t-boned", but I certainly would not have been successful at our converging speeds on loose salted asphalt, or 2) make an extreme evasive maneuver to scoot around the front of the VW, though putting me momentarily into the on coming traffic's lane (over the double yellow line). My reaction/decision: I took a snap look and saw no oncoming traffic, then did a snap left than right slalom around the front of the VW without braking. The result: the Touareg just narrowly missed hitting my right rear corner (it never braked), but missed just the same. My concern about self driving cars: If I'm chilling-out reading the morning news or making tea while my car manages my commute automatically, what would have been the result?

      My opinion: Drive your car, have someone else drive you, or take public transportation! If you're too lazy and driving is too much for you, or you're very tired, or maybe you just need to do be doing something else at that time, SIMPLY DO NOT DRIVE!
      I remember seeing an Intellisafe animation or illustration of driving around the front of a crossing car at intersection to avoid collision. Not sure how fast it reacts. But a computer can be faster than human most of time.

      Here is the illustration:
      http://www.gizmag.com/volvo-360-car-truck-safety/34147/
      Last edited by goVolvo; 02-20-2015 at 03:17 PM.

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      Quote Originally Posted by Bmo Pete View Post
      Perhaps higher insurance rates to cover the risk of system failure or ineffectiveness in all avoidance scenarios. It's one thing for your car to recognize an obstacle at 22 mph and slam on the breaks just in time, missing it by inches. It's quite another for the car to handle all the driving duties, recognizing all potential hazards and react quickly and appropriately at higher speeds.

      Here's an example: just today on my way to work, a VW Touareg raced out from an entrance ahead and on my right hand side, attempting to cross two lanes of 45 mph traffic (in front of me), to go the opposite direction. The VW driver did not see me at all and accelerated straight for my V60's passenger side, giving me a split second to react! My options were 1) slam on the brakes and hope to stop in time to avoid getting "t-boned", but I certainly would not have been successful at our converging speeds on loose salted asphalt, or 2) make an extreme evasive maneuver to scoot around the front of the VW, though putting me momentarily into the on coming traffic's lane (over the double yellow line). My reaction/decision: I took a snap look and saw no oncoming traffic, then did a snap left than right slalom around the front of the VW without braking. The result: the Touareg just narrowly missed hitting my right rear corner (it never braked), but missed just the same. My concern about self driving cars: If I'm chilling-out reading the morning news or making tea while my car manages my commute automatically, what would have been the result?

      My opinion: Drive your car, have someone else drive you, or take public transportation! If you're too lazy and driving is too much for you, or you're very tired, or maybe you just need to do be doing something else at that time, SIMPLY DO NOT DRIVE!
      Yep. I just don't understand the benefits of a self-driving car.
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      Quote Originally Posted by cedarholm View Post
      Yep. I just don't understand the benefits of a self-driving car.
      ... until you try and are surprised.

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      Quote Originally Posted by Bmo Pete View Post
      My concern about self driving cars: If I'm chilling-out reading the morning news or making tea while my car manages my commute automatically, what would have been the result?
      The computer/camera/radar/etc. would have spotted the Touraeg long before you apparently did.

      People need to understand that this IS going to happen. There WILL be driverless cars, and soon. The complaints are just like people's complaints about mobile phones...or fax machines...or automobiles. It's coming. Technology moves forward and there is nothing you can do about it.

      Yes, you can choose to not have a mobile phone. Yes, you could have chosen to not use a fax machine. You could have stuck to riding your horse to the office. Of course.

      I'm not worried about driverless cars five years from now. I'm worried about the transition phase - these semi-driverless cars, I call them. I think the current situation is a recipe for disaster. Then again, maybe the new cars will avert those disasters.

      It will be interesting to watch the next 24 months with what Volvo is rolling out, and what Tesla has already rolled out. We are way beyond self-parking, that's for sure.
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      There are autonomous cars / prototypes from Audi, BMW, Cadillac as well. It's a matter of time some of them will go to the market. Now that Volvo set their time to 2020. I bet someone else will jump out and offer such cars before 2020.

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      Quote Originally Posted by cedarholm View Post
      Yep. I just don't understand the benefits of a self-driving car.
      My in-laws are getting too old to drive home after Thanksgiving. I'd love it if their car had driverless capabilities.

      I commute 20 miles in bumper to bumper traffic for an hour. There is very little "driving" involved. I could easily turn over the wheel to a robot. And if I could use that time productively, imagine how much time I'd have for something productive to society, like helping my kids with homework, helping my neighbor do some yard work, or the billion other things many of us can't do enough of because we spend two hours each day on something that adds NO value to anyone's life (commuting).

      PLUS, my taxes won't have to go through the roof to pay for new road capacity. With driverless cars we can fit a lot more cars onto the same roads. That is worth thousands of $$ to every one of us.

      at the same time, I am 100% OK with a person not buying a driverless car. I'm guessing that will be permissible for 20 years or so. Maybe the transition will happen faster.
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      Quote Originally Posted by goVolvo View Post
      There are autonomous cars / prototypes from Audi, BMW, Cadillac as well. It's a matter of time some of them will go to the market. Now that Volvo set their time to 2020. I bet someone else will jump out and offer such cars before 2020.
      Tesla will be self-driving the soonest, I am guessing. Of course, there's also Google, so....

      The new P85D has the capability built in, I believe.
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    13. #11
      Quote Originally Posted by cedarholm View Post
      Yep. I just don't understand the benefits of a self-driving car.
      No accidents due to driver error or poor driving skills.

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      I have to admit, given how easy it is for a hacker to take control of an automobile (see Darpa Dan segment on 60 Minutes), I'm worried about driverless cars.

      Of course, the cars being controlled by DARPA were not "driverless" so the we should all already be anxious about this.

      I have said for years that main beneficiary of driverless vehicles are the banks. If you miss a car payment, your garage will simply open and your car will simply drive away.

      Hey, you have nothing to be afraid of if you just make your payment on time
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      Volvo had said they had the technology for self driving cars in 2012/2013 and the main problem was with road laws. I thought it was pretty cool when i saw it.

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      Quote Originally Posted by cedarholm View Post
      Yep. I just don't understand the benefits of a self-driving car.
      I am sure the Wright Bros could never fathom the concept of automated flying and/or automated landing in thick fog...
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      Quote Originally Posted by GrecianVolvo View Post
      I am sure the Wright Bros could never fathom the concept of automated flying and/or automated landing in thick fog...
      True.

      I tried boating in the fog once. I didn't believe my chartplotter and returned to the dock. Freaky experience.
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      I would expect only driverless cars allowed on major thoroughfares in 15 years. For all the reasons described above. On an aside, I recall my Dad telling me stories about his horse - it could get him home at night on his own. This was 100 yrs ago. Back to the future?


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    19. #17
      Quote Originally Posted by cedarholm View Post
      Yep. I just don't understand the benefits of a self-driving car.
      Study: Self-Driving Vehicles Could Eliminate 90% Of Car Accidents In United States http://consumerist.com/2015/03/05/st...united-states/

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      Quote Originally Posted by GrecianVolvo View Post
      I am sure the Wright Bros could never fathom the concept of automated flying and/or automated landing in thick fog...
      There's a big difference between your plane examples and automated cars. Even without any automated systems there was already a system for the planes to coordinate with each other. The planes follow rules, the pilots communicate with a control tower, etc. That plane landing on auto pilot in the fog isn't suppose to need to worry about some other pilot trying to cut him off.

      I for one, will welcome self driving cars when they get here, assuming I'm still around.

      And for that inbetween phase of self driving cars that can be put on manual so you drive yourself, I wouldn't be surprised that as car black boxes improve, that maybe one will have a different accident insurance deductible depending on whether they were driving themselves or the car was in autopilot mode.


      Quote Originally Posted by cedarholm View Post
      I tried boating in the fog once. I didn't believe my chartplotter and returned to the dock. Freaky experience.
      I will not boat in the fog. Too many idiots out there like the one below that was supposedly busy looking at his gps screen trying to figure out when to turn right (which happens to be right in front of that beach):




      Even boating on a clear night can be bad with so many that run without any lights.
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      Quote Originally Posted by pattyweb View Post
      I wouldn't be surprised that as car black boxes improve, that maybe one will have a different accident insurance deductible depending on whether they were driving themselves or the car was in autopilot mode.

      .
      I think that is pretty much guaranteed, once the data proves the case.

      I certainly HOPE so. Our rates should be based on statistical analysis, not some nonsense like, "I'm a better driver than any computer"
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      Quote Originally Posted by pattyweb View Post
      There's a big difference between your plane examples and automated cars. Even without any automated systems there was already a system for the planes to coordinate with each other. The planes follow rules, the pilots communicate with a control tower, etc. That plane landing on auto pilot in the fog isn't suppose to need to worry about some other pilot trying to cut him off.
      I know you enjoy a good argument (I think it's your favorite past time, not that I should complain since I enjoy that as well) but you think in the Wright Bros era there was such infrastructure or do you think the Wright Bros envisioned communication via radio and/or tower control? Hardly. We are in the infantile stages of something that are kids (when they will be adults) will find routine and expect.

      I for one, will welcome self driving cars when they get here, assuming I'm still around.
      Ditto.

      And for that inbetween phase of self driving cars that can be put on manual so you drive yourself, I wouldn't be surprised that as car black boxes improve, that maybe one will have a different accident insurance deductible depending on whether they were driving themselves or the car was in autopilot mode.
      You can be certain of that.
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      Blah, the "entheusiasts" can pooh-pooh all they want, but when a driverless volvo becomes available, I will be the first one signing up! I love cars... but driving? Not so much. It's a burden and it's tedious. I'd love to kick back on my ipad getting ahead on emails. Or clipping my fingernails because I forgot to the night before. Whatever. In today's 24/7, work is just an email, iphone text, and laptop away from stealing what little time should be yours world, time is the most precious comoddity.
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    25. #23
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      Quote Originally Posted by GrecianVolvo View Post
      but you think in the Wright Bros era there was such infrastructure or do you think the Wright Bros envisioned communication via radio and/or tower control?
      I agree, they did not. I took your comment in the wrong context.
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    26. #24
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      Quote Originally Posted by MorrisonHiker View Post
      No accidents due to driver error or poor driving skills.
      ..and this only applies if every vehicle is self-controlled, and is in proper operating condition, and the travel network does not malfunction or otherwise go down. When your iphone or laptop loses connectivity or craps-out, it usually won't kill you and others.

      The last I read, there have been only a half dozen special drivers licenses issued globally to test these cars. The driver has to be competent, capable and ever vigilant to be able to take over control of the car immediately. Now on your daily commute next time, take notice of all the flakes driving around you, and then tell me the kind of fail safe systems and network needed to autopilot these folks. Because you know, they'll be snoozing or fixing their hair or watching videos eating popcorn in the back seat the moment their less than well maintained vehicle malfunctions.

      Btw, the autopilot function in aircraft has been known to malfunction on new sophisticated million dollar aircraft, this is why the necessary training and strict licensing remains required of every pilot, and why at least one pilot must remain ever vigilant and at the ready of the controls. Auto-piloted trains still collide or run off the tracks due to system malfunction with a driver sitting there looking at the controls. Just picture the sheer complexity of thousands upon thousands of vehicles, of all shapes and sizes, zooming at speed around each-other, relying on systems that are ultimately designed, installed and maintained by a very imperfect human.

      I think these self-driven cars will be exclusive to smaller confined locales that were built with this infrastructure from the beginning. Something like the "Smart Cities" in India or the "Ghost Cities" in China where you can start from scratch and regulate on a manageable scale. Existing in a vacuum is one thing, spreading to the pre-existing travel network will be quite a challenging, costly and long undertaking...current world events and legislative politics aside. Btw, I'm still waiting for that Mag-Lev train to happen in Maryland. I believe the cost is now $100 million per mile. What are the odds of getting the funding for that passed so we can truly move masses of people from town to town quickly and cheaply? What about higher priorities like modernization of our energy delivery network (powerplants), our highways, bridges and tunnels, our public education system, etc. Where's that damn levitating skate board from Back to the Future 2?! Sorry, but mass utilization of this technology is still silly Utopian sci-fi to me. Just because we can make a self-driven car, doesn't mean we can realistically use it to any great benefit to society.
      Last edited by Bmo Pete; 03-06-2015 at 02:57 PM.
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      Quote Originally Posted by Bmo Pete View Post
      ..and this only applies if every vehicle is self-controlled, and is in proper operating condition, and the travel network does not malfunction or otherwise go down. When your iphone or laptop loses connectivity or craps-out, it usually won't kill you and others.

      The last I read, there have been only a half dozen special drivers licenses issued globally to test these cars.
      Pete - articles have been linked here. Reading those articles is a good start, I think. I believe most of your assumptions are out of date. This is happening.

      Of all the tests I have read of, not one is in a locale that was "built with this infrastructure from the beginning."

      Almost every assumption lay people have made has been proven to be faulty. "Tyey're gonna need to put special markers on the lanes, so the cars know where the lanes and roads end." Of course. Except, nope. Etc. etc.

      I had not thought of using our nation's enlisted men as the guinea pigs, but that should be no surprise. It seems that those vehicles will be running on public roads, but that was not clear. I believe the vehicles at Stanford's SLAC will be running on private roads, but not sure about that. Funny to think of the SLAC visitors as "guinea pigs." That is not a controlled environment, afaik (other than inside the buildings, of course). But maybe they will only operate "behind the gate."


      The Internet of Things is here.
      Last edited by adp; 03-06-2015 at 04:39 PM.
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      Quote Originally Posted by adp View Post
      Of all the tests I have read of, not one is in a locale that was "built with this infrastructure from the beginning."

      Almost every assumption lay people have made has been proven to be faulty. "Tyey're gonna need to put special markers on the lanes, so the cars know where the lanes and roads end." Of course. Except, nope. Etc. etc.
      That depends. At one point last year Volvo was testing on special roadways with embedded magnets.

      Volvo self-driving car tests use road-embedded magnets

      But is it feasible?

      Sorry, Volvo. Magnetic roads for self-driving cars are a pipe dream.


      What's not clear is if this next 2017 round of Volvo self driving tests (limited to just 30 miles of road) is using magnets or if Volvo has shifted away from magnets.
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      There is nothing in the latest articles about special magnets

      So, how many of you guys have opinions about this without reading the articles I have been linking?
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      Quote Originally Posted by pattyweb View Post
      That depends. At one point last year Volvo was testing on special roadways with embedded magnets.

      Volvo self-driving car tests use road-embedded magnets

      But is it feasible?

      Sorry, Volvo. Magnetic roads for self-driving cars are a pipe dream.


      What's not clear is if this next 2017 round of Volvo self driving tests (limited to just 30 miles of road) is using magnets or if Volvo has shifted away from magnets.
      You just quoted two articles that are A YEAR OLD

      get with the program and stop wasting my time

      this area has been undergoing very rapid change. An article from a year ago might as well be from the stone age.
      Last edited by adp; 03-06-2015 at 06:48 PM.
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      I don't see "technology" as the limiter on this. I see hacking as the limiter. (Hacking is the behavior, not the technology)
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      Quote Originally Posted by adp View Post
      You just quoted two articles that are A YEAR OLD

      get with the program and stop wasting my time

      this area has been undergoing very rapid change. An article from a year ago might as well be from the stone age.
      You made the statement

      Quote Originally Posted by adp View Post
      Of all the tests I have read of, not one is in a locale that was "built with this infrastructure from the beginning."
      I included a link to Volvo actually having done tests in a special location that was modified with infrastructure to support the test.
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      Quote Originally Posted by pattyweb View Post
      You made the statement



      I included a link to Volvo actually having done tests in a special location that was modified with infrastructure to support the test.
      I'm sorry for my pissy attitude, yesterday

      I had linked newer articles that didn't say anything about special roads.

      This is a fascinating and fast-moving area. Should be very interesting.
      Last edited by adp; 03-07-2015 at 11:24 PM.
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      Quote Originally Posted by adp View Post
      I'm sorry for my pissy attitude, yesterday

      I had linked newer articles that didn't say anything about special roads.

      This is a fascinating and fast-moving area. Should be very interesting.
      Definitely fast-moving. It's exciting to be on the cusp of a technological leap, not yet able to see where things will lead us.
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    35. #33
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      Quote Originally Posted by adp View Post
      I don't see "technology" as the limiter on this. I see hacking as the limiter. (Hacking is the behavior, not the technology)
      Using this technology in controlled environments and pre-determined limited routes for public transportation is little more than what we have now with our metro mass transit systems. They've just taken away the tracks and saved a few bucks by firing the bus and shuttle drivers. Disney Land (theme parks), or a scratch-built contained smart cities are the perfect environments to tinker with auto piloted vehicles.

      Behavior is the main point of my previous comments. Look at all the knuckleheads driving around you... Don't "waste my time", until you consider the scale of the change management exercise associated with this! Do you recall how long it took people to use seat belts? And that was an obvious benefit to society, you know, like not smoking. Current drivers: Half won't fix a headlight or change the oil until they're pulled over or something starts going wrong. More won't check tire pressures and how many can't find it within their means to use a turn signal or turn their headlights on when it's raining (even when they could use their auto headlights)? No one knows or cares about the friggin existing regulations anymore. What about the growing percentage of elderly drivers on the road? So many of them don't know what planet they're on while driving. You think the self driven car is the answer to overcome all the horrible drivers on the road, where I see just the opposite. I see people who won't manage this technology to the extent required for safe use on public roads.

      Most won't be able to afford to buy these cars and maintain them as strictly as necessary. Are my tax dollars going to be used to subsidize purchase of these cars like electric cars are now? Who will be tasked to design, build, and maintain this system of roads and support peripherals? The sort of folks responsible for installing Obamacare.com? The guys who gave us the B2 bomber at $4 billion a copy? Have you read about the F35 program lately? These programs involved the brightest minds on earth. Who will manage this program after installation, the MVA/DMV? DOT? Are you kidding me?! Who will repair the failed systems in the cars? The guys that took three tries to fix my power mirror? Guys like the techs at Audi that over-filled my oil and caused me expensive engine issues? They took two weeks to figure out why my brake lights were staying on, and that's while working with engineers in Germany. What about exploding airbags and failing breaks with Honda, GM and Toyota? These scientists, engineers and techs can't handle the technology in the cars now. I know I sound pessimistic, but you're not being realistic and looking at the details, the associated complexity and scale of this undertaking.

      Finally, you'll only see a worthy benefit of this technology if it's adopted in mass. At it's best and in the relative short term for the personal self-driven car, this is a reality for a percent of a percent of the population. Installing the necessary infrastructure/systems will certainly not meet the expenditure justification for large scale implementation. You still have no answer for the behavior question. Behavior of the builder, behavior of the maintainer, behavior of the users and behavior of the government. The flying car technology was proven in the 1950's.
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      When cars were introduced, they were much more complicated than horses. And somehow we are no longer knee deep in horse poop. (but we do have far more people killed by/in cars, today, than we ever had by/on horses)

      I appreciate your cynicism. It's hard to imagine that these systems will be safe. But I think it is a lot closer than we all think.

      There is nothing "special" about a bus. It has to deal with the same issues that an individual car does. I don't think a "controlled" environment is really any different than a public street. We think it is "different" because we see all the variables on a public street, and it's hard for us to process all that info. I doubt a computer systems feels that a public road is any more complex than a private road. To a computer, the difference between handling 100 variables and 1,000 variables isn't even noticeable, though it boggles our tiny minds.

      I do hear you re cost and repairs/maintenance, and complexity. Just looking at the Volvo video, with graphics showing all the various systems, it's hard to imagine the costs of ownership being reasonable.

      Unlike safety belts, there are real market incentives to making this work, IMO.
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      hmm, looks like the Mercedes autonomous vehicle is on the streets of San Francisco

      http://www.entrepreneur.com/article/243751

      someone posted that the one in SF is NOT self-driving, but the article isn't sure
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