Working on my 164E
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    1. #1
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      Working on my 164E

      Hello Swedespeed. I purchased my 164 back in 2009 but it is only recently that I am able to really dig into it. I'll start with a short intro about the car and my current plans on what I'd like to do with it. Then, I'll post a few recent pictures. My plan here is to pseudo document my work on the car to get some ideas, help with trouble shooting, and frankly just to talk about working on old Volvos. I felt a 164 thread was appropriate to balance out all the 140 builds.

      The car:

      I'm working on a 3-speed, 3.31 rear 1973 164E that's mostly original and, surprisingly, rather well documented. The original owner bought and drove the car until 2008 with occasional stints in storage. I have a lot of info regarding what the first owner did to the car. The major items that were done were complete underseal from new, new upholstery front and back, and rear wheel well rust repair. In 2008, the second owner bought it and l tucked it away in his garage. He had it for only about a year when I bought it in 2009. Since then, I've driven it about 10,000 miles, stuck it in storage for 3 years, and driven/dragged it across the country. I've blown the transmission and original fiber timing gear in the process and had my fair share of D-jet issues. The car has about 105,000 miles on it.

      My plans:

      I want to do a complete restoration of the car as best as I can and modify a few things here and there. I'd like to do most of the work myself, too. If you haven't already seen it, I take a lot of inspiration from John H's 164 build thread on the Volvo Owners Club forum out of the UK (see link). Currently, my plan is to freshen up the engine and suspension, drive it for a bit while the weather is still nice, then take it back into the garage for the resto work. Detroit has a lot of cruises that I hope I can get the car out to before starting the major resto items. Regarding the restoration, I will keep the look of the car mostly the same but I'll put my own touch on a few things (Mega Squirt conversion and more sporty styling). It'll be full road trim and I plan to keep the Volvo powertrain as much as possible. No turbos or blowers under the hood. I expect this will take something like 2-3 years of hard work and lots of my paychecks.

      I've had the transmission rebuilt since blowing it a few years ago. I'll be sticking with the 3-speed for a little while, at least.

      John H's 164 build: http://www.volvoforums.org.uk/showthread.php?t=60815

      Also, I would like to:

      Design my own Type R ish gauge cluster (perhaps Speedhut? VDO?)
      Add front (and maybe rear?) spoiler(s)
      Add Virgos (I have a nice set already)
      Swap D-jet for Mega Squirt (lots of info from one of the 140 threads, plus D-jet stuff is sooooo scarce). Looking at an MSII kit.
      Lower ride height
      Replace all suspension bushings and ball joints
      Respray the car the same green color
      Go back to leather seats. Currently I have cloth seats (non-original). I'll post a photo soon.
      Add fog lights (have some OE fogs that need some TLC)
      Maybe tweak bumpers
      Delete some OEM chrome trim
      Retrofit R-12 A/C to R-134a

      Here are some photos of the car to give you an idea of what I am working with.

      [IMG][/IMG]

      [IMG][/IMG]

      [IMG][/IMG]

      [IMG][/IMG]
      Last edited by Lesky; 02-13-2016 at 11:02 PM.
      Lesky
      '73 164E

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    3. #2
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      I've started poking at the engine. I want to pull it, completely disassemble it, check everything out, replace/clean what's necessary, and then rebuild it. This might sound silly as a "just for kicks" exercise, but let me give some background.

      Like I mentioned, I blew the original fiber gear. I haven't quite put my finger on it, but I think the fiber gear bits were able to get into the sump. Since then, I've been getting rather large chunks of stuff draining out with the oil (some just small enough to fit through the 1 inch drain plug!). I started seeing them 3 years ago and if memory serves they looked metallic. My initial thoughts were either a piston skirt or pieces from the block. I didn't test with a magnet at the time and I didn't keep them. This was in between undergrad and graduate school, so my priorities were focused in different directions. At the time, I thought my engine was breaking apart.

      Fast forward 3 years. Draining the oil last week yielded no less "chunks" of something (photo). A simple magnetic test shows that these bits are non-ferrous but, as a results, I want to pull the engine and freshen it up. Furthermore, I've got 40 year old bearings, rings, fouling, and potential "silting up" in the #6 cylinder. Why not bring everything up to snuff? I want to drive the snot out of this car once I'm finished. This is probably more "because I want to" than is really necessary, I'll admit.

      Progress so far: I've started pulling the D-jet harness, fuel rail, injectors, manifolds, drive shaft, radiator, and aux items on the serp belts. I'll pull the ATF cooler once I source some caps to plug up the supply/return fittings. Also, I'm waiting to borrow a cherry picker and buy a load leveler. So, things have stalled at the momemt.

      Pics:

      These are tiny debris but this is what I'm seeing lately (non-ferrous per magnet check)
      [IMG][/IMG]

      Where things are at regarding engine pulling: pulled cables, manifolds, steering pump, A/C compressor, alternator, fuel rail, and injectors.
      [IMG][/IMG]

      Dropped exhaust. I want to clean up down pipes and paint with high temp paint. I had to cut the pipe that goes over the rear axle to drop the exhaust.
      [IMG][/IMG]

      Injectors:

      So, I'm as ignorant as it comes regarding storing injectors for any length of time. I've read things from "spray them down with penetrating oil" to just "put them in a ziploc with desicant packs" when it comes to storing. I'm an engineer by profession, and to me it seems that injectors live happily when there is gasoline in them. I decided that I would store them with the pintles submerged (to prevent corrosion from MI humid air) and with gas in the rail lines. I then sealed these in mason jars with the tips of the injectors resting on the o-ring seals (keeps pintles off of bottom of mason jars while still submerged). I hope it works otherwise I'll be spending lots of money buying new injectors. Not the best photo, but pintles are submerged in old, treated gas (w/ stable) while short fuel rail tubes are also filled with gasoline. Though, I did not do anything to protect the electrical contacts from exposure to gasoline.

      [IMG][/IMG]
      Lesky
      '73 164E

    4. #3
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      Storing them in stabilized gas probably won't hurt. I don't know whether the Bosch injectors have any internal rubber bits that would dry and shrink, I am thinking not; but, the storage in gas probably doesn't hurt. The solenoid coil should be sealed so you should not have an issue with the electrical parts. They definitely need to be in a sealed container of some sort to deal with dust and humidity.

      It looks like you have already had to deal with this on one of the injectors; but, you should plan for replacement of the short stubs of 5/16 fuel line that connect the injectors to the distribution rail. The stubs age and can pop off the end of the injector when pressurized. The one injector in the bottle has a cheese grater style hose clamp. Replace them with proper banded clamps that do not chew up the hose. You can go fancy stainless steel or get perfectly serviceable ones from most auto parts store at a pretty low price. You will of course, be changing the three rubber seals and rings that the injectors fit into in their respective holders. Consider shipping the injectors to RC Engineering or some other FI specialists to have the injectors cleaned and flow tested.

      If you are doing the MS II conversion, be aware that there is a bit of misinformation going around about the Bosch 0 280 150 038 injector. The flow rates as published by Bosch are 384.3 gm/min at 3 Bar which is about 48.2 lb/hr @43.5 psi. When I did my conversion, there were some threads around which discussed flow rates that were much lower. Can create a bit of an issue when setting up MS!

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    6. #4
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      Looks great!

      I challenge you to put 6 carbs on it!

    7. #5
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      Quote Originally Posted by ozzymanhattan View Post
      Looks great!

      I challenge you to put 6 carbs on it!
      Keeping 6 carbs in sync (reminds me of a Honda CBX) - probably easier to keep the Djet running.

    8. #6
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      Quote Originally Posted by ozzymanhattan View Post
      Looks great!

      I challenge you to put 6 carbs on it!
      Lol, no way! I'm a modern guy. I just want to change to brain over to something that is still in production and ax the mechanical sensors for newer ones.
      Last edited by Lesky; 06-10-2015 at 09:46 PM.
      Lesky
      '73 164E

    9. #7
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      Indeed, the hose clamps will be new when I do the re-install. I did some reading about getting the injectors flow tested. I found a few places but that will wait until I figure out what, if any, internals for the B30 I need. I have read your post about the discrepancy in flow rates. I will revisit once I'm ready for EFI work.
      Lesky
      '73 164E

    10. #8
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      No physical progress. However, things are coming together. I am able to borrow a colleagues engine hoist and load leveler for the B30 extraction. Will receive both tomorrow. I hope to pull the engine and transmission over the weekend. Will post photos afterwards.
      Lesky
      '73 164E

    11. #9
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      What wheels are on it now? They look interesting from the side photos, but not a clear picture to see what they are.

    12. #10
      Member LloydDobler's Avatar
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      Talk to Kertwerks about his stealth megasquirt, he builds it into the original enclosures so it looks stock. Seems perfect for what you want to do.

      https://forums.swedespeed.com/showthr...-available-now
      2003 C70 T5M Convertible - Eibachs, Koni FSDs, Enkei RSF5s, OBX downpipe, Snabb intake, RIP kit, & drop-in intercooler, Quaife LSD, 19T, Green Giants, 22 psi Hilton tune.
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    13. #11
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      I am not sure about the rims. I'll find out and post. However, see below for a better shot of the rims.

      I have Virgos for it as well, but the ones on it now I also really like. They might be KMGs and based on the white colored rust I think they're aluminum.
      Last edited by Lesky; 06-22-2015 at 10:41 PM.
      Lesky
      '73 164E

    14. #12
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      LloydDobler, thanks for the link. I am always glad to get some more info regarding MegaSquirt.
      Lesky
      '73 164E

    15. #13
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      Finally, some progress.

      This is my first engine pull, so I've been busy gathering the items I needed to do the job. I was able to borrow a hoist and scored a cheap load leveler. Then, sourcing bolts was way more difficult than I hoped for. I used grade 8 bolts to mount the load leveler (overkill, honestly based on proof strength) and Home Depot/Lowe's only stock limited sizes above about 1/2". Also, since I was using a load leveler initially designed for V8s, I had to tweak it a little because the B30 is so long.

      Anyway, the B30 green book shows only 3 mounting locations for pulling the engine. One is just behind the oil filter and is a 5/8-11 thread. The hole sits just above the coolant drain plug.

      [IMG][/IMG]

      The other two lifting locations double as mounts for the A/C compressor bracket. These holes are 7/16 (I think) UNC. I forgot my notebook in the garage. I can confirm if someone wants to know. The mounting holes are on the driver's side of the block.

      [IMG][/IMG]

      Here everything is mounted up.

      [IMG][/IMG]

      Whoops, there it is.

      [IMG][/IMG]

      Somethings I learned after doing this:

      The garage most likely isn't tall enough. I had to lower my jack stands twice and shorten the leveler chains.
      Remove the rocker cover. The leveler chains will mush it up pretty bad.
      The leveler chain will tear up the threads on one or two manifold studs.
      Use a load leveler. This would have been hell without it.
      The green book says to remove the dip stick and cooler lines from the BW35 before pulling the engine. This is impossible and not necessary.

      After getting the engine/trans pulled out, I then removed the transmission and mounted the block on my engine stand. The green book isn't detailed about how to removed the torque converter mounting bolts but there is an access cover that drops off the bottom of the block just in front of the transmission. Then, you need a buddy to hold a breaker bar on the timing pulley while you remove the torque converter bolts from the flywheel.

      Here it is mounted on my stand. My torque converter, for some reason, is blue. Also, a nice shot of the rims I have.

      [IMG][/IMG]

      Next steps are to disassemble the engine completely, clean everything up, and see what needs attention. Also, I plan to clean out all the bits of fiber timing gear still lurking around in the sump.

      Until next time.
      Lesky
      '73 164E

    16. #14
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      Looking great!

    17. #15
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      Quote Originally Posted by 66Wildcat View Post
      What wheels are on it now? They look interesting from the side photos, but not a clear picture to see what they are.
      The center caps say KMC. When I have a reason to pull one off, I'll provide more info.
      Lesky
      '73 164E

    18. #16
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      This was a busy week working on my engine. I managed to get the whole thing torn down. The extent of remaining timing gear debris was substantial. When it originally broke, I had it replaced by a Volvo dealership. This is what was leftover (minus pieces throughout bottom end) in the oil pan.

      [IMG][/IMG]

      While tearing down the block, I had to stop and think about how to remove the valve lifters. The green book specifies a special tool for this, which is near impossible to find. Anyway, it turns out you can remove the cam without removing the lifters. The lifters can be removed afterwards. Here's how I did it. The green book does not have a procedure for removing the cam.

      Take the cam timing gear off as well as the cam thrust plate. You should be able to rotate the cam back and forth by hand. Rotate the cam back and forth until you can separate the helical gear mesh between the cam and the distributor shaft. You should be able to remove the cam this far.

      [IMG][/IMG]

      Next, you have to remove the distributor shaft. This is hard to do unless you are able to separate the helical gear mesh. Remove the distributor clamp and then you should be able to remove the distributor shaft. Next, carefully slide out the cam.

      Distributor clamp
      [IMG][/IMG]a

      Distributor shaft
      [IMG][/IMG]

      From here, the valve lifters can be eased out of the block by using something soft to tap them out. I used a rubber mallet and some wood to tap them out from the bottom of the block. Worked great. Reinstalling them won't be so easy.

      Here's a shot of the internals (before removing cam and lifters)
      [IMG][/IMG]

      I must admit that I am not convinced that there is a difference between laying the crank down and standing it upright for storage. The crank weighs approximately 75 lbs and the center 3 journals are really all that isn't supported in this position. Hardened steel should have no problem remaining in the elastic region under this amount of loading in bending. Warping implies plastic (permanent) deformation. Regardless, the crank can be straightened for minimal costs.
      Last edited by Lesky; 07-02-2015 at 10:02 PM.
      Lesky
      '73 164E

    19. #17
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      Quote Originally Posted by ozzymanhattan View Post
      Looking great!
      Thanks!
      Lesky
      '73 164E

    20. #18
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      I'm very impressed. Of course that's mostly because I was "too scared" to even trying pulling the head off my 164E by myself. Thankfully, I was finally able to find some 70 year old guy with B30 experience to come help me do it this past weekend. I look forward to tracking your progress and your car looks very nice.

    21. #19
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      This is my first engine pull and things are easier than I expected. Just dive in. IC engines are fairly forgiving on most things. Hopefully pulling the head gave you the "itch" to keep going!
      Lesky
      '73 164E

    22. #20
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      Can someone explain what exactly is measured when "decking" a block? I know it's some measure of the height of the head mating surface. But where is this typically measured from?

      Also, I've been hearing things like blocks warp due to heat cycling. Has someone experience this before? I find this also hard to believe, since thermal expansion coefficients of cast iron are well known.
      Lesky
      '73 164E

    23. #21
      Member LloydDobler's Avatar
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      They warp due to uneven and excessive heating, and it does happen. If a car is operated normally and kept in good condition, the warping will be minimal as you would expect.
      2003 C70 T5M Convertible - Eibachs, Koni FSDs, Enkei RSF5s, OBX downpipe, Snabb intake, RIP kit, & drop-in intercooler, Quaife LSD, 19T, Green Giants, 22 psi Hilton tune.
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    24. #22
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      When you reassemble the block with the crankshaft, rods and pistons in place, you will almost certainly find that at TDC the tops of the pistons are not at a uniform height in the cylinder. In my case, the pistons were all slightly below the top of the bore. Depending on the head gasket thickness you are using, on the B20 it is desirable to have the piston slightly above the top of deck. This establishes the depth of the quench (or squish) band around the edge of the combustion chamber. A correct quench band goes a long way to controlling detonation.

      If your pistons are uniformly below the top of the bore you can 'deck' the cylinder block to get the correct height of the pistons in the bore. However, they are unlikely to be uniform which may require shaving the top of the tall pistons to get them uniform. In the Push-rod performance forum, there is a thread where Mr Singer provides a better discussion.

    25. #23
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      Thanks guys! I will check out the push rod performance thread.
      Lesky
      '73 164E

    26. #24
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      Small update:

      I dropped my engine off at the machine shop last week. Waiting to here back on the magnaflux and dimensional inspections. Will post when I have more info.

      Question: Will B20 cam bearings fit a B30? I can only find B20 bearings. Are hardened valve seats for unleaded fuel really worth it?
      Lesky
      '73 164E

    27. #25
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      Quote Originally Posted by Lesky View Post
      Small update:

      I dropped my engine off at the machine shop last week. Waiting to here back on the magnaflux and dimensional inspections. Will post when I have more info.

      Question: Will B20 cam bearings fit a B30? I can only find B20 bearings. Are hardened valve seats for unleaded fuel really worth it?
      Here you go - http://volvoonderdelen.com/164-E/Eng...-Volvo-604377/

      The B20 uses 3 bearings of different size. The B30 needs a 4th bearing - no idea what the size of the fourth is.

    28. #26
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      I spoke with Don Thibault of P1800.com and he was able to clarify what the B30 takes as far as came bearings go. He said the B20 has 3 bearings of different size (exactly what 142 Guy said) and that the B30 takes 4 bearings, but of all the same size. The B30 cam bearing is one of the B20 bearings. Volvo still makes the B30 cam bearings but they are spendy - $42.50 per bearing. Don also said that Volvo lists a bushing for the helical gear that drives the oil pump/distributor. However, when I removed my cam I did not see any additional bushings. The additional bushings goes for $34.96 from Volvo.

      Additionally, Don said Volvo never made prefit bearings - meaning that if you get OEM cam bearings, you must do a line bore.

      Volvo part numbers: 430119 - B30 cam bearings. 418251 - additional bushing for oil pump drive. The closest Volvo dealer said the parts would take 3-4 weeks to come in from Sweden.
      Lesky
      '73 164E

    29. #27
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      Yeah, that rings a bell. In the B18/B20, the graduated diameter of the three cam bearings makes it relatively easy to slide the cam into place without nicking any of them with the sharp edges of the lobes. In the B30, you have to be super-careful. Since they'll need to be line-bored anyway, I'd suggest having the machine shop do the install.

      There is definitely a bushing for the oil pump/distributor drive shaft, and I think it's visible in your picture? It's small, in your picture it's right at the bottom (i.e. top when right-side up) of the shaft's bore in the center. In any event, unless this is a super high mileage engine I wouldn't expect it to be a big issue.

      Your pic:
      Last edited by tmtalpey; 07-11-2015 at 01:05 PM.
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    30. #28
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      Scandcar's price is $58, presumably for the four bearings plus shipping. I have used Scandcar for lots of parts - a reliable vendor. They used to ship via postal service but are now using a courier. A little more expensive; but, slightly faster. Shipping on the bearings should not be horrendous. The last parts I ordered were less than 3 weeks delivery.

      The replacement bearings that I got for my B 20 were designed such that they did not require honing after installation. I did have the machine shop install them because there was no way that I was going to get them in without damaging them. If you send a technical question to Scandcar, they may be able to advise whether the bearings they sell are precision fit or require honing to get a correct fit.

    31. #29
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      The guy who helped me pull the head off my '72 164E indicated that putting in the hardened valve seats was definitely something that should be done. I was hoping others would reply to your question on that as I'm curious to see what the general consensus is on this.

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      When I rebuilt my B20E, I had the machine shop install inserts in the exhaust seats and do a multi angle valve job. At the time, the incremental cost of machining the old valve seats to receive the inserts plus the inserts themselves was relatively cheap (definitely less than $100). If you are spending the $ to do an all out rebuild, the incremental cost for the inserts is small. Is it worth it depends on how much you plan to use the car. If you don't drive it very much, then the accelerated wear because of the lack of lead in the gas may not materialize for as long as you own the car. If you drive it a lot, then you may end up cursing not installing the inserts in 4 or 5 years.

    33. #31
      Member LloydDobler's Avatar
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      My understanding is that hardened seats are necessary if you want any longevity out of the valvetrain.
      2003 C70 T5M Convertible - Eibachs, Koni FSDs, Enkei RSF5s, OBX downpipe, Snabb intake, RIP kit, & drop-in intercooler, Quaife LSD, 19T, Green Giants, 22 psi Hilton tune.
      2006 V70 2.5T - Ice White - Oak Arena, (almost) bone stock daily driver.
      1966 122s - Collectible project, restoration and many mods on the way.
      2005 V50 T5 AWD - Daughter's first car. No mods unless she does 'em herself.

    34. #32
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      tmtalpey: I see the bushing. I did not notice this before. My engine only has 103,000 miles on it. I probably will not replace it unless I can find some wear specs to measure against. As for the cam bearings, the machine shop will do the install. Pressing the bearings in seems easy with the right tool, but I don't have any metrology equipment in my garage to ensure a job well done.

      Thanks for all the info about the cam bearings.

      Regarding the hardened valve seats, I am having them installed. The machine shop said that the hardened seats are only ~$80 for the whole head. I believe I am also getting a 3-angle valve grind, though the stock valves look like they only have a single angle grind. I plan to drive the car a lot. So $80 seems well worth it. The whole valve job, baking, and seats will run about $400. Cross my fingers the shop does a good job seating the valves.

      Also, when I delivered my engine to the machine shop, the machinist mentioned that my cam was junk because it did not have any wear patterns. By wear pattern, I mean that some of the cam lobes were completely shiny, while others had what looked like an hour-glass shape over the tip of the lobe within the hardened surface of the cam. His explanation was that the convex surface on the bottom of the lifter had worn away, thus causing to0 much wear on the cam lobe.

      I am just learning about cams but does this indeed mean the cam needs to be replaced or reground? C and K grind cams are easy to get but its nice to get a second opinion.
      Last edited by Lesky; 07-15-2015 at 10:23 PM.
      Lesky
      '73 164E

    35. #33
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      Excessive camshaft wear was a major warranty issue in the early B18 engines. If I recall correctly, the problem was traced to the hardening of the camshaft lobes and the lube used in the engines' initial assembly. The B20 and the B30 are of similar design of course, which means the lifters and the cam lobes are subject to wear.

      In your situation, I'd be replacing the cam, rather than than regrinding the old one, and I'd also be replacing all of the lifters too. You'd need to refinish the cam surfaces of the old ones anyway, as the wear pattern of each lifter matches that of the camshaft lobe with which it's had a long and intimate working relationship. It won't be cheap to do this, but it's how to do it once and do it properly, so this wonderful classic car of yours will go hard for a long time.

      There's quite a choice of cams still out there for the B30 - beyond C and K grinds, Cat Cams and Schneider also have products on offer.

    36. #34
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      I can't comment on the B30; but, the B20 definitely had wear issues with the cam and lifters. The OEM lifters and the cam surface in my 71 B20E were not in good shape. Isky makes replacement lifters for the B20 that are claimed to address the wear issue. They are a different height than the OEM lifters and as such have matching replacement push rods. You might want to do a little investigation to determine if the B30 and your later model year suffered from the same problem and if Isky or others offer an alternative to the OEM parts if the problem exists.

    37. #35
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      Quote Originally Posted by Lesky View Post
      His explanation was that the convex surface on the bottom of the lifter had worn away, thus causing to0 much wear on the cam lobe.

      .
      I am guessing you mean that the convex surface on the lifter had resulted from the wear, not that the convex surface had worn away? The lifter surface should be flat and the when installed the lifters should be free to spin in their bores.

      You need to do something with your cam as you don't want to put it back in the engine in it current condition. If you plan to stick with one of the common grinds, I expect that the cost of buying an off the shelf camshaft will be much much much cheaper than having the cam profile reground and then doing a surface treatment to harden the lobes after machining.

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