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71 1800E bogging

4K views 40 replies 8 participants last post by  Dalsim007 
#1 ·
Hey all,

Been ghosting the forums for a bit, and decided I would see if I can get some answers on an issue I am having. Thanks to the information on here, I have gotten my idle problem take care of, and a few other things, but my problem persists.

Here is the issue:

I got in the car after it sitting for a couple months. It started up fine, after all that time, but when I started to drive I noticed a loss of engine power on acceleration. It just seems to be bogged down. I ran some injector cleaner through it, but had no results. I figured I would take it for another spin today, and it had full power again right after putting in some sea foam fuel additive. I let it sit for a few hours. The wife wanted ice cream, so I figured I would take the car. Again, same issue. However, when I pump the pedal it gets up to high RPMs no problem, like there is no problem. But with the pedal to the floor consistently its bogged.

I am thinking fuel injectors. I also cannot remember when I changed the oil last. I do not let it go past 2000 miles before I change the oil.

Anyone have any thoughts or suggestions.



Much appreciated!
 
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#2 · (Edited)
So many possible causes! Sounds a bit like a fuel delivery problem.

Start with the no cost items such as checking your fuel pressure and definitely make sure that your throttle position switch is set up as per the service manual. Make sure that your fuel filter is not clogged, or, since it is a bit of a hassle to get to it to check it, just plan for its replacement anyway unless you have replaced it recently.

You don't provide a location. If you live in a part of the world that gets really cold weather and the car was stored during that period without the gas tank being topped up and you are using an ethanol blended fuel, you could have a gooey mess in the bottom of your gas tank due to phase separation of the accumulated moisture during the cold weather. That would require draining the tank since it is not going to go away. If you are in to doing that, then you should plan for replacement of the filter sock on the end of the fuel pick-up tube.

Beyond the preceding, everything starts to get more complicated and expensive!
 
#5 ·
Ok, so here is an update...

Tasks performed:

- Top engine cleaned with Sea Foam Spray
- Fuel Injectors pulled and cleaned
- Sparked plugs pulled and replaced
- Oil / filter changed
- TPS maintained via post from Rainflye

After doing all that this weekend, it seems to have cleared up the issue. I think I am just going to pull the motor and do a head to toe of the entire thing this winter. I am in eastern PA, so she sits anyway. Now that the 79 rabbit motor is not sitting on the engine stand, I have some free space. I plan on a full engine overhaul. I might as well paint the thing while the engine is out as well.

Thanks to all for the advice.
 
#6 ·
The problem returns. This time I know what is causing it! As I was driving home, I decided to flip on the fan just to get some fresh air into the car. The fan kicks on, and boom, there is the problem staring me in the face. Bogging down, and weak engine power output. It hits me. I must have low voltage on my battery! So, I am going to grab a new battery, and go through all the grounds on the electrical system. I am also going to put a new ground on the engine, since when I took a peak at the old one it looked a bit beat up.

Moral of the story. Check your battery first. I should have known this. I was once working on a 99.5 MkIV and it threw 11 short to ground codes. We did the cam position sensor, fuel pump relay, relay panel, etc, etc, before we figured out that the root cause was a bad cell on the battery. I am having a big sign made for my garage that say, "Check your damn battery!".
 
#7 · (Edited)
When the engine is running, voltage is determined by the operation of the alternator and its voltage regulator, not the battery. If you can get the car started, the battery is probably not your problem. At least check your running voltage on the B+ terminal of the alternator before running off and buying a new battery. It should be in the 13.5 - 14.5 volt range. If it isn't, then you have an alternator / regulator problem.

If turning your fan on was enough to cause the voltage to drop and initiate problems on the Djet, it is likely that you have a problem with the +12v supply to the Djet. Get the wiring diagram from the service manual and connect a voltmeter to the 12v supply point on the Djet. The best location would be back probing the terminal strip on the control box itself. The next best location would be the supply off of the main FI relay in the engine compartment. Then do your test with switching the fan on and see if that causes the voltage to the Djet to drop. If it does, then check your grounds and the 12 v supply to the Djet. If it doesn't, then your problem is some place else.

I am still thinking that it might be a fuel problem.
 
#12 ·
If you think you have the same issue, grab a voltmeter and measure the voltage at the battery terminals. With the engine running, switch on your heater fan and headlights and radio and whatever other electrical loads you can turn on. Check the voltage and if it is in the 13.5 - 14.5 volt range you likely don't have a voltage related problem. However, also check the voltage on the load side of the relay which powers up the D jet controller and the fuel pump relay. If you have relay problems or wiring problems which are resulting in low voltage to the fuel pump or the D jet controller this will cause operational problems for the D jet.

Really low voltage to the fuel pump may result in the pump not being able to achieve operating pressure which results in lean operation. In addition, fuel injectors are susceptible to low voltage. They take longer to open at lower voltages which results in reduced pulse widths which cause lean running. More modern digital fuel injection systems have a curve of opening time versus operating voltage and are able to correct for this problem. I don't recall the D jet having that capability in its analog timing circuits. Deteriorated wiring and connections is the Achilles heal of the D jet system.
 
#13 · (Edited)
Dalsim;

I'm with 142G on this, DJet ECU needs 12V to operate...but when checking voltage, you might want to compare V measured at Batt, to V measured at Power input to DJet controller (so terminal 87 of FI power relay, supplying power to ECU 16 and 24. Ref FI Wiring Diagram here: https://www.sw-em.com/bosch_d-jetronic_injection.htm#71_1800E_Fuel_Injection_Wiring_Diagram )...if there is more than a 0.5V difference, I'd start cleaning terminals, contacts, chassis connection (especially for DJet ECU), Batt Cables, Chassis Strap, and any other connection if only mildly involved with FI sys, to shiny metal, and reconnect these with ACZP to keep it from developing VDrops. Ref https://www.sw-em.com/anti_corrosive_paste.htm

With FI issues, I always go back to Rail pressure...it MUST be constant at 28PSI...Don't start hunting around before confirming this, else you'll be chasing your tail in frustration!!! I temporarily plumb an Oil Pressure Gauge onto the Cold Start Injector line to monitor. It's not super accurate, but will show if pressure is dropping for any reason...and that confirms a fuel delivery issue...and fuel delivery must be right (meaning constant pressure!) under ALL conditions!

BEWARE: FI Fuel Sys holds pressure even after Shut-off! Be ready for squirting fuel, and observe Fire Safety Procedures when opening pressure Rail!


Good Hunting!
 
#15 ·
Thank you all. This is extremely helpful. I had a spare fuel filter around here and changed it as a first measure to make sure it wasn't clogged. The intake side of the filter was somewhat loose and leaking fuel so it difinitely didn't help.

Not sure if it would or wouldn't be an issue, but the car had the 1972-73 bigger filter with very large tubing and endings (12mm at least). The filter I got from CVI as replacement for the 1970-71 had 8mm big intake/exit ports, which seems to match the original square plastic one. Replaced it and went for a drive. Car felt a lot more responsive and stopped bogging after a few hundred meters.

I'll see if it is fully solved after that or if the issue comes back. In which case I'll track down electrical issues.

I alsoi intended to replace the seals on all injectors as well as I don't think they ever were serviced in the last 50 years. Are the individual injectors just "pushed in" or screwed in in some way or is the fuel rail itself what holds them in place?
 
#16 ·
The individual injectors are pushed in and held in place with the retaining rings. I used some dielectric grease on the seals to ease installation. If you don’t have them it may be an opportunity to add the phenolic washers which require a larger o-ring under the injector holders. The phenolic washer retrofit is intended to relieve hot start issues.

The original 28 PSI spec for fuel pressure was changed to 30 PSI in a subsequent service bulletin by Volvo.
 
#19 ·
The individual injectors are pushed in and held in place with the retaining rings. I used some dielectric grease on the seals to ease installation. If you don't have them it may be an opportunity to add the phenolic washers which require a larger o-ring under the injector holders. The phenolic washer retrofit is intended to relieve hot start issues.

The original 28 PSI spec for fuel pressure was changed to 30 PSI in a subsequent service bulletin by Volvo.
Are the phenolic washers the PN# 957173? (From CVI catalog)
I have already ordered a set of 4 of those along with 4 of each of the other seals #419785 (lower seals - small) and #419784 (upper seals - large).

When pulling the injectors, if you can just pull them out to switch the washer and seals, do I even need to purge the gas line or can I do a "hotswap" of the seals/washers?
 
#17 ·
Dalsi;

Is that Filter located before of after the FuPu? ..if Before it could have been sucking air, which if excessive would lead to (partial or intermittent) fuel starvation...if After it would be subjected to high pressure so would surely have leaked and probably been detectable by fuel stink (and wet patches).

There is nothing sacred about FuFi size, but obviously a smaller filter would get blocked sooner if a lot of debris was coming along, and the plumbing must fit...when I had my rust-in tank issues, I got pretty good at rapid FuFi changing...and I had to change them so often that I'd even reuse them after rinsing the rust particles out (and capturing on a white paper towel to inspect)...once no more particles came out, I put in a clean new FuFi and had peace, AND constant fuel pressure and reliable operation finally!

Good Hunting!
 
#18 ·
Fuel filter is before the fuel pump. It was installed by a previous tech with giant worm screw clamps that has damaged the rubber lines, in addition to the hoses being to big for the Fuel Filter fittings... Either the fuel filter was too clogged (not likely from rust however as my fuel tank was replaced like 5-6 years ago with a reproduction one (either from Scandcar or IPD I cannot remember)). As you mention, could be from sucking air under higher pressure. There definitely was lingering fresh gasoline smell in the garage when I had it in the garage during the winter.
 
#20 · (Edited)
957173 are not the phenolic washers. For some bizarre reason CVI does not catalog them. The part number is 962658

http://212.247.61.152/us/main.aspx?page=articlelist&requery=1&searchstr=962658&searchfld=

You need 8 of them. One below the injector holder and one above the injector holder (under the bolt and washer) so that the injector holder is sandwiched between the phenolic washers. The correct fat rubber O ring between the head and the injector holder for use with the phenolic washers is 960168.

http://212.247.61.152/us/main.aspx?page=article&artno=960168

VP's price for the phenolic washers is a bit high. Search a bit and you can find them for less. There used to be a retrofit kit which included the 8 phenolic washers and the 4 O rings for a nice price; but, I don't have the number. IPD might still list it.

Once the large locking collars around the injector bodies are released, you should be able to pull the injectors up and out of the holders without having to pull the injectors off of the rail. You may need to unbolt the cold start injector from the manifold so that the hose tap to the cold start valve has enough slack to allow you to pull the rail back. You may also need to remove the clips retaining the fuel hoses to the firewall to allow for more movement.

If the injectors have not been removed in the last 5 years, they will likely bond to the rubber pintel seals in the injector holder making removal a bit of a struggle. Don't yank on just one injector, try to pull each one up a bit so that they are all coming out evenly. If you yank on one injector and it pops loose with the others stuck in place you risk bending / kinking the fuel rail and then you are truly f****d. Once the injectors are released from the holders you are then free to unbolt the holder from the head and install the washers and new O ring.

You have the new pintel seals and the big rubber retainer ring on order. As noted by craig300, grease the rings and seals up with lots of silicone grease (dielectric tune up grease is perfect) to make things go back together easier (not necessarily easily).

If the injectors are original, while they are out and easier to inspect have a look at the rubber stub hoses that connect the injector to the rail. These stubs can deteriorate and start to leak, especially where the hose fits under the compression fitting on the injector. The injector does have a barbed fitting under the compression fitting so you can replace the stubs and use banded clamps to hold the stub hose on each end. You will carefully have to use a hack saw or dremel style cut-off wheel to cut off the old compression fitting. Unfortunately I cannot advise on good replacement fuel line. I am currently struggling to find 5/16" fuel line that lasts more than 3-4 years before it gets hard and starts to crack.
 
#23 ·
Just wanted to come back and thank you 142 Guy again. Finally got around to remove the whole injection set to replace all injector seals and install those phenolic fiber washers.
Pretty sure those holders were not removed in the last 20 years at the very least! What was left of the original o-rings looked more like nail clippings than anything else.

Result: now, when I turn off the engine, my garage doesn't smell like a gas station for the next few hours/days! I imagine I had a ton of fuel vapors espacing from the holder venting holes. Hot restart are infinitely easier, and so are the cold start somewhat. All of this can happen with a steady 1000 rpm too. Hot or cold! yay.

Took the time to sand and paint the original bare metal fuel rail and injector locking rings as they were all oxydized, rust stained from the metal spacers of the injectors. Replaced all fuel hose in the engine bay and replaced the whole lot of various garden-hose type clamps to proper fuel injection clamps. Also, turns out the fuel hose to the fuel rail were reversed, not sure it impacted the car really though.

However, although the car runs mighty well - probably the best it ever did in the 16 years I owned it - when first going out (either from a cold or warmed up from idle engine), I still get some hiccups. They do go away after a few accelerations, and after that, the car runs flawlessly for as long as I need to. Will do the same thing the next day however.

I am at a loss. I will see if the car runs ok with the TPS disconnected as a way to rule it out. The symptoms kinda match what SW-EM describe for failing PCB on those. I.e. bogging on acceleration but stable on steady throttle or idle. But in my case it all goes away after 3-4 acceleration...

Failing fuel pump? I know I have the original Bosch unit. But if it is failing, it wouldn't just bog down on the first few ask for additional fuel wouldn't it?
Failing manifold pressure sensor? What would that one's symptom be?
 
#21 ·
Those seals and washers appear to still be listed on various volvo dealers parts stores, although for totally different application.

962658 is listed for B28 Generator washers on 240/260/760 models (https://www.volvooftorontoparts.ca/p/42917894/962658.html)
960168 is listed for Gearbox Mounting applications in 240s models (https://www.volvooftorontoparts.ca/p/42907823/960168.html)

Does that even makes sense? I can get some great discounts ans save shipping costs if procuring locally so it may be a good option if those PN are official volvo ones.
 
#22 ·
Be cautious. I have got search hits like that before which did not match up with the part I was looking for. I think Volvo recycled some of the part numbers. Some of the hits from the dealer websites are legitimate and quite often will have a vintage or classic designation, particularly if the part was also used on the later 240 cars. Volvo used some thins like O rings and such on later cars.

So, it may or may not be the part that you are looking for. If you want to be sure, order from VP or another vintage dealer who has a better parts description. If you want to take a chance .....
 
#24 ·
142Guy; "I am currently struggling to find 5/16" fuel line that lasts more than 3-4 years before it gets hard and starts to crack."

I have some SS braid covered Teflon flex line in 5/16" ID (aerospace surplus)

...I think that's surely fuel and pressure compatible...and I'm thinking it is more permanent...the only question is how to clamp and install fittings compatible with our requirements...I might inquire at our local Areoquip branch...I think they can swage on fittings...any thoughts on using Teflon?

Cheers
 
#25 ·
Ron:

I have seen the SS braided PTFE lined hoses. Primarily used on hydraulic systems with compression / swage style fittings. I had the local hydraulic hose specialist make up replacement brake hoses for my 142 using that style hose.

I think the problem will be the barbed fittings on the D jet's fuel system. The PTFE liner is very stiff and is not elastic. With effort, you might be able to deform it enough to jam over the barb; but, the deformation will be permanent and I expect will not seal well when clamped. To make this work, I think you would have to go The Full Monty and cut off the barbs and then modify the tubes to accept flare fittings that would match up with swaged fittings on the hose. I don't know whether the metal on the fuel rail and the fuel pressure regulator is amenable to being flared and whether you can get flare fittings in the correct sizes. The braided SS also strikes me as a bit Ricer / Dress-up so I think I will pass.

I know the Hi Performance Auto guys like Cohline hosing. Cohline does sell braided SS 'rubber' lined hoses for fuel systems. I was not able to find any distributors or vendors for Cohline in Canada so I went with Gates Barricade; but, it has only been a year since I did the replacement so too early to endorse it as a durable product.
 
#27 ·
Just ordered some Deoxit to help clean those contacts up. Definitely doesn't look brand new! That "seal" all around doesn't look great at all and the path seems less than perfect but it is continuous.

There was some white oxydation on the connections/solder points of the wires inside as well.
Cleaned the whole track and contacts with 99% isopropyl alcool and a cotton swap for the mean time. Short drive was flawless afterward, but I had already gone for a ride earlier this morning. I'll see what tomorrow brings!
127059
 
#28 ·
Dalsim; That is the older style TPS, but it looks in decent condition...I'd clean any (internal as well as the external) connections well with cottonswabs (certainly of white corrosion products, and assure they have good spring pressure, and Deoxit for anti-corrosion,

142Guy; I agree with all of your concerns re the PTFE...it still seems worth checking out...and thanks for the reference!

Cheers
 
#29 ·
After you get the contacts cleaned up (don't forget the two contacts on the rotating assembly, you might want to consider getting some non hardening sealant to replace the dried stuff around the edges and keep the internals clean. Stay away from RTV silicone seal. RTV uses acetic acid as the vulcanizing agent and as it sets up the acetic acid can damage soldered connections. Hylomar blue or its Permatex knock off is not meant for this particular application; but, it might be a suitable choice because it remains soft, seals well and facilitates future disassembly. Down side is its a bit pricey.
 
#31 ·
Thanks for the tip on the sealant. I do have on hand some anaerobic flange sealer from permatex, which seems quite similar to what you describe. Used that stuff when refitting the AAV and it does not harden at all. Is that the Permatex knock off of the hylomar stuff you mentioned?
 
#30 · (Edited)
142Guy;

The release of acetic acid is less of an issue now...as a reference, early RTV formulations offgassed it while curing, but the more recent formulation (such as G-E's Silicon II) releases less reactive (and odorless/offensive) methane. I don't know off hand about D-C 732 general purpose RTV, but a quick look at the data sheet should answer that...

Cheers
 
#35 ·
I do have e a tube of Permatex #2 in my tool box. It is probably 20 years old and still appears to be good. It would probably work to seal the switch. It has been so long since I used #2 that I can't remember what removal is like. Permatex describes it as a non hardening sealant; but the TDS describes it as a "hard, semi-flexible sealant". My recollection is that meant it didn't get hard / brittle; but, I seem to recall that disassembly was not easy. The Hylomar blue is / was the favorite of small aircraft mechanics where stuff seems to be continually being pulled apart for regular inspections. It also goes on differently and is ready for use sooner. You apply the Hylomar to both surfaces, let it dry and then assemble. Disassembly is fairly easy.

As Ron notes, there are neutral cure RTV silicone sealants available which might be a good choice. I think that Permatex Ultra Black may be neutral cure. I have some Permatex Black (no ultra) and it is definitely vinegar heavy. However, I also have some Permatex Ultra Grey which has no vinegar odor so the Permatex Ultra RTVs may be a good choice.
 
#36 ·
So I managed to find that Permatex equivalent to Hylomar. Got it for a very low price too at my local part store ($11 CAD). Great product to work with. The engine bogging on acceleration is also apparently fixed from cleaning with isopropyl alcool and Deoxit. Thanks so much for the tips.

Now I wonder if that Hylomar equivalent will attack paint... I'm thinking about using it to seal the under the vent window chromed plates instead of the foam/double-sided tape that was there before. Would make it so much easier to remove when doing work on the doors/windows.
 
#37 ·
The SDS for Permashield says that the primary solvent is acetone. Most cured automotive finishes will resist acetone without problem. Acetone may dissolve a thin coat of spray bomb enamel.

As an alternative to using permashield for that application, consider 3M strip caulk.

3M™ Strip Caulk, 08578, black, 1 ft. (.30 m) (3mcanada.ca)

Suitably squishy so excellent for filling in around mounting holes on trim to prevent water ingress and may work better than permashield if you have a large gap that you are trying to fill. Sticky; but, not so sticky that it is hard to work with and allows for separation of parts without hassle. I used it recently to reattach the plastic liner behind the door card on another car I was working on. It is typically available from auto paint / body supply shops. I think I paid around $40 for a box. The down side is that unless you do autobody work on cars regularly you will now have a life time supply of strip caulk since there is 60 feet of caulk in the box and you are probably only going to use 6" for your application.
 
#39 ·
Ended up buying that strip caulk for the plates in front of thedoors/vents to shut off wind noise. Worked great. It was amazing too to refinish the Smiths bezels and seal the glass to the bezels.

On a side note, and back to that bogging issue again. The TPS cleaning was a good difference, yet the issue came back a bit throughout the summer. Before switching out the injectors with a different set, I tried a tank with injector cleaner product...... and it completely removed the issue (for now). That was unexpected - always thought of those cleaner as snake oil. Well it actually made a really good difference!
 
#38 ·
This part of the forum doesn't seem to have much activity, but this is a thread that's had some recent activity. Anyone want this? Someone giving away...
 
#41 ·
Yep. Running the original injectors (which are very likely 50 years old too). I had removed them and cleaned them superficially when I installed the phenolic washer and changed all the seals.
Issue I had was the car was running fine on idle or playing with throttle on idle, but whenever I was actually moving, the first few accelerations were super sluggish and gave the feeling of bucking. It would all go away after 4-5 accelerations though.

The TPS cleanup and lubrication using Deoxit really helped, but since using an injector cleaner, I have not had a single time the engine bogged on acceleration. As you mention, there might have been stickiness which was going away as flowrate was increasing, and the cleaner might have removed that tacky stuff altogether. I'm curious if it will come back for next spring after the car has been stored for the winter...
 
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