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ASK MIKE

52K views 95 replies 37 participants last post by  Rex Morgan 
#1 ·
Mike Dudek has offered to open this thread and correspond with anyone with technical questions about the P1800. Mike is an authroity on the P1800 having restored these cars and written widely on them. He owns a masters class 1800ES and is currently restoring P1800 #47... one of the first cars produced.

If you have questions or would like Mike's advice on anything 1800 related, just submit your question here and Mike will get to it as time allows.

Lee Cordner
 
#2 ·
Re: ASK MIKE (L Cordner)

Lee,

Thanks for the kind intro. I hope that I can help with the little that I know. I am continually learning more about these great cars. Having been on the show circuit with the ES for more than 15 years and judged at many National meets, I am pretty famliar with the late cars. The " resurrection" of #47 will be a good opportunity to fill a few more brain cells with early "Jensen" info. Who needs the other stuff lodged in there.

BTW, you did say this was a salaried position, right? Is the check in the mail ...


Mike D.
'73ES, '61P + others
 
#3 ·
Re: ASK MIKE (irollerdude)

That's awesome. There's been a dearth of 1800 talk on these here forums. Maybe I'll start things off with something vague (and probably novice-grade) that's been on my mind.

My ES is still rolling around on its original, sagging old suspension. I'd like to update it over the winter when I'm not driving it, with the common progressive + bilstein + poly setup that V-Performance offers.

The question is, as a novice with no special tools, would it be foolish to try to do this myself in the garage? What will I need to press the bushings? How long can I expect it to take, how do I safely keep each end of the car off the ground, and should I put 911 on speed-dial? Any other thoughts?

I could take it to a pro and forget about it, but besides the huge labour costs, it would kind of defeat the purpose of having bought an old Volvo as a project in the first place.

Thanks in advance.
 
#4 ·
Re: ASK MIKE (asthenia)

I'm sure Mike will excuse my jumping in here... I've got an article that will help you for the front suspension, at least.

http://www.vclassics.com/archive/bushings.htm

The hardest part can be removing the big hinge bolts that hold the lower arms to the crossmember. Sometimes they come loose no problem, sometimes it takes days of rust penetrant, propane and torque to free them.

The upper front bushings are simple. I suggest you have a shop press the lowers in and out, unless you have access to a hydraulic press.

Of course, this is a good time to renew the ball joints as well.

Taking the rear apart will be pretty obvious. Remove the shocks, limiting straps and springs one side at a time, supporting carefully with a floor jack. Just work slowly and carefully.

Have a shop press/cut out the old bushings. They're really horrible to get loose. You can put the urethane ones in by hand, no press required (the big lower rear ones may be an exception -- I haven't dealt with that style in urethane myself).

Support the car firmly on four jackstands throughout.
 
#5 ·
Re: ASK MIKE (Phil Singher)

No problem Phil. This is all good advice. Supporting your car correctly and having good floor jacks are important. Safety is the most important, because a squashed Volvo enthusiast is an unhappy one. Would make the 3rd party cost issue irrelevant.

If you are asking about how to support the car you probably have little experience with this kind of stuff, so it will take you way longer than an experienced mechanic. I say tackle it one bit at a time and see how it goes. Biting off too much will leave you high and dry for way too long, and may leave you without a project, since your wife will have divorced you and given the car to charity.

Mike D.
'73ES, '61P + others
 
#6 ·
Re: ASK MIKE (irollerdude)

Thanks guys.

Mike, is it wise to hold the car up by the jack points? I thought they weren't really engineered for that. Also, would it be stupid to remove the old bushings with a torch?

And Phil... when's the next issue of VClassics coming out?
 
#8 ·
Re: ASK MIKE (Phil Singher)

Yea, and I always keep a floor jack under the end I am working, just in case some thing decides to move, like the ground (I live within a few miles of the San andreas fault). Now that I have a lift at my shop, the stands will be used less, but the same issues apply, only now the car will fall 6 feet instead of 1


Mike D.
'73ES, '61P + others
 
#9 ·
Re: ASK MIKE (Phil Singher)

Phil, I note that your instructions on the front suspension assembly seem to contradict what I've read elsewhere in that you are supposed to torque all of the suspension parts with the wheels on with the suspension under load. At least, this goes for the lower and upper a-arm bush bolts and end-link. Does it matter?

Just curious since I too am in the process of complete ball joints, tie rods, springs, bushes and shock renewal. Can't wait to get it back on the road!
 
#10 ·
Re: ASK MIKE (kgc@microshaft.org)

There's nothing in the Green Book or Haynes about doing final torquing with the weight on the suspension. I haven't had any trouble with doing it with the car still on stands, although several people have told me it's common practice to do it with the car on the ground.
 
#11 ·
Re: ASK MIKE (Phil Singher)

is common practice (I did read it somewhere) to leave the lower A arm bushings loose until the car is resting on its own weight. That is due to the fact that the bushing's metal sleeve "locks" when the pivot bolt is tightened. Then the rubber itself deflects (twists)as the A arm pivots. Tightening them with the car weight off will cause a preload on the bushings, meaning premature failure. This is only applicable on the 1800 and 122 with the later lower A arm bushings. The old (small) bushings on the early cars rotate freely,so to speak, when tightened, and are not effected by this issue.

Mike D.
'73ES, '61P + others
 
#13 ·
Re: ASK MIKE (kgc@microshaft.org)

I am sure some suspension designs call for preload. I would agree that any of the metal-rubber-metal bushings should be tightened with the car "on its feet". In these cases the rubber does all the deflection, not the metal rotatong in/on it's mounting.

Mike D.
'73ES, '61P + others
 
#14 ·
RE: About "Original" Paint Colors and locations

Mike;
This is not your usual question about the "body colors" used on the 1800's, that's fairly well documented.. I'm after the "detail" colors as used on the engine, and other locations on the body.
I've routinely been told the generic "it's red", for the engine, but this does not fully jive with what's actually on this '71 P-1800E (purchased by my Mother in '75 from the original owner). This Volvo has 104,000 original miles, so engine overhauls, modifications, etc. can be discounted.
I have found both red and black paint on the motor mount brackets that attach to the block (the black is over the red-- is the red a "red oxide" primer? The block wasn't primered).
Half the head bolts were red, (those outside the valve cover), the other half were finished in Black Oxide, as were other bolts on the engine, yet the oil sump bolts are "Silver Cad" plated, as are some other bolts on the engine.. a rather eclectic mix..
The water pump pulley appears to be bare metal (probably was originally a Black Oxide" finish?). The Crank Pulley is an "aftermarket" double groove as a "Volvo" dealer installed A/C was installed. this pulley is bare metal. The Fan was yellow, I'm not sure of the origin of this fan blade ( I vaguely recall "Volvo" markings, but cannot confirm that at this writing, I need to reinspect the fan blade to be sure). The fan blade that was fitted to this engine, when the A/C was installed, somehow got an edge bent and "cored" a rather large hole in the radiator. I still have the "bent" fan blade.
The Upper A-Frames and Cross Member are a light gray yet the rest of the suspension/steering is black. The engine bay is body color.
I'm wanting to replicate an "as left factory" appearance, the devil is in the details.. I'm after those "details", right down to the finish on the nuts, bolts, washers and screws used on this 1800.
Do you have any valid resources, information, etc. that could answer my rather "anal retentive" questions and detail the paint and "paint store" (PPG, etc.) paint codes?
I do full restorations, on a variety of cars, to "as left factory" standards.. in short "High #2/low #1 Daily Drivers" that I try to detail right down to the "dots of paint" used as inspection/modification marks. Yet I firmly believe these cars are meant to be driven, I just make them "showroom floor" new again.. Of come as close to it as as physically possible, with the information available
My personal "baby" is a 1953 Jaguar XK120 DHC (purchased from the original owner in May '67) that I am "trying" to restore (other cars keep getting in the way ;-} ). My "Daily Driver" is a '62 122S 4dr. The '71 P-1800E is now my son's.
Any and all help will be greatly appreciated..
Thanks.
Charles.
 
#15 ·
Re: About "Original" Paint Colors and locations (XK120DHC)

Charles,

The book Swedish Iron by Bill Webb is the most complete restoration guide for the 1800. I suggest you use this book to get the answers you need. Basically, you are finding the correct colors. The fan - yellow (safety), motor mounts - black, head bolts outside the valve cover are painted with the engine, those inside are not. Fan pulley - bare. Oil sump bolts, not painted. If it was on the engine when it was painted, it is red, otherwise, not painted and as supplied. Suspension as you noted. Hope this helps.

Mike D.
'73ES, '61P + others
 
#16 ·
Re: About "Original" Paint Colors and locations (irollerdude)

Mike;
Thanks.. I appreciate the reply and the info about the book "Swedish Iron".. Getting books with "detailed" information is always difficult as many tend to focus on the "history" of the marque, presenting "glamour shots" of all the cars produced, but rarely any "in-depth" detailed shots, or info.. I have run across this same problem with Jags, "Tri-Five Chevy's", etc. It's appreciated to be pointed to the proper literature.
Thanks, again.
 
#17 ·
Re: ASK MIKE (L Cordner)

Mike:

After starting my '72 1800 coupe when it's still cold there's an initial dead spot when the accelerator is pressed. A lot of times this causes me to stall the car as it requires opening the throttle a large amount (almost flooring it) for the engine to respond. When the car reaches its proper operating temperature this sympton disappears. Any ideas on this one?
 
#18 ·
Re: ASK MIKE (DoctorJackMD)

Hi Doc,

Sorry, I have been off motor building on my Duett. My first thought is the throttle switch, but the temp sensitivity tends to point to the watertemp sensor. I would make sure all the normal "tuneup"isues are is spec: timing and fuel pressure especially. Keep monitoring the symptoms to look for consistency. As in any strange behavior diagnosis, try to isolate one variable at a time.

Mike D.
 
#19 ·
Re: About "Original" Paint Colors and locations (XK120DHC)

Mike,
I do want to caution everyone that there were some "odd" things that Volvo did especially with the early Jensens. I had a lengthy conversation with Bill Webb and he agreed that there were exceptions to the "rules". One that might affect your restoration pertains to the front cross member. Bill Webb's book states that the front cross members were gray. This may be true on "later" cars. However, my Jensen which was original (plus one other absolutely original Jensen that I saw) had Black front crossmembers NOT gray. Bill agreed that he indeed saw original Jensens with Black not gray. Why? no one knows. Another strange thing about my car was the piece of carpet that hangs down below the rear jumpseats was with out a doubt originally BLACK and not the gray that most were. Again, why? who knows, maybe they ran out gray carpet for a few days at Jensen Brothers and decided to use black they had in the shop...? Anyway thought I'd add my 2 cents. Thanks Mike.
Regards,
Vinny Red62Jensen
 
#21 ·
Re: About "Original" Paint Colors and locations (Phil Singher)

I might agree that grey or black, but not body color, as the bodies were painted before the front suspension assembly (crossmember, A-arms, springs shocke, etc) was attached. In other words, the crossmember was part of the suspension in the assembly process rather than part of the body.

Mike D.
'73ES, '61P + others
 
#22 ·
Re: About "Original" Paint Colors and locations (irollerdude)

Mike, I must respectfully differ.

We're the second owners of our '67 1800S and I know the full historyof the car. The body had a respray at some point, but nothing under the hood was painted. I was the first to ever pull the engine. The crossmember is California White, as is the rest of the body.

Ditto on our '66 122S: California White (until we repainted the whole thing a custom color -- the crossmember is now an incorrect black because I painted it that way).

Off the top of my head, I can't say if I've seen a Jensen or E model with a body-colored crossmember or not, but they're not at all uncommon in the middle years of the line. I've definitely seen gray ones; don't know if black was ever an original color.
 
#23 ·
Re: About "Original" Paint Colors and locations (Phil Singher)

Phil,

Please explain how the production process lends itself to such, and I will respectfully change my position. Otherwise I don' know how they would have done it. Anything is possible. I suppose they could have said, "Let's paint them all white today" , but I really doubt they were painted to match the body color on every specific car. I have seen many crossmembers, but often they are undercoated or grease coated, so cannot say what each one was painted. I will start looking more closely at the cars I have, and look at, in the future.

Mike D.
 
#24 ·
Re: About "Original" Paint Colors and locations (irollerdude)

Mike,

Of course I agree with you that it makes NO sense from a manufacturing standpoint to have multiple crossmember colors.
This point has troubled me in the past -- but I can only report what I've seen and believe to be original.

Certainly you won't go wrong with a gray crossmember in any concours.

So, is anyone out there actually reading this? I'd be interested in hearing what others find under their hoods...
 
#26 ·
Just wanted top chime in on the suspension stuff. Rear end lower big bushes in poly are a snap to install. Removing the old ones is another matter.
Drilling out the bush (darnedest thing I've ever seen) and then cutting or driving out the sleeve works best if they won't press out but common fall-back is the 'ol blue crescent.
The "silent block" or bonded rubber bushes with the "teeth" on the inner sleeve must be tightened with the suspension loaded or they will prematurely fail, front AND rear.
Using poly for the panhard bar bushes is much easier to assemble than the stock rubber units.
 
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