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    1. #36
      Member Hounddogger's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by JOHN T SHEA View Post
      I can't say I agree. Not only are electric superchargers a very good idea, but you can expect them to become commonplace, possibly powered indirectly by exhaust turbocompounding. In short, by splitting a turbocharger in two. But I do not expect many of them will be of the reciprocating type. Volvo, Audi/VW and Valeo are just the start. I'd be very surprised if any carmaker is not working on electric superchargers right now.

      Overcomplicated, dumb, junk, stupid, kills? You don't help your case by so massively overstating it.
      Turbos are as close to free energy as you'll ever get... And even then you're paying for it in back-pressure... All a turbocharger does is scavenge heat that you paid to make and would otherwise be wasted. A supercharger is parasitic. Being electric doesn't change that. Volvo's clutched supercharger is already pretty close to being as good as it gets... Remove it and power the turbo with compressed air---which is what they're doing in the triplecharged car. Thermodynamics gives you nothing for free.
      Exponents kill
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    3. #37
      Member JOHN T SHEA's Avatar
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      Car & Driver's blog has several good electric supercharger articles, about Ricardo's work on the prototype Ford Hyboost Focus diesel engine and the UK Controlled Power Technologies company, among others. They also deal with turbocompounding, as in Formula One's KERS.

    4. #38
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      Quote Originally Posted by JOHN T SHEA View Post

      My point remains that this system could dispense its compressed air into the intakes and thereby boost the engine more directly. Nobody can disprove that.
      Quote Originally Posted by Hounddogger View Post
      The idle air consumption of the engine is likely around 12kg/hr... So mid power is around a few hundred kg/hr... Air has a density of 1.22kg/m^3. So even if you only store 1kg that's a huge amount of air to store even if you only save enough to inject it for a few seconds... Not only that but if it's pressurized you have to deal with it heating up when compressed and cooling when released. You would also need very large additional intake tubing. You would also need to know how much air is being injected so you're not leaning it out. So that's another sensor and a huge packaging issue.
      Sounds like he just did disprove it.

      Look, in theory, it could work. Sure, and powering a car by coal and steam works...but it's not a great idea. As Hounddogger said, you need so much volume to feed the engine, that compressing the air, storing it, and using it on demand is simply a non-starter from an efficiency standpoint. As Hounddogger said, the laws of thermodynamics paint a clear path, and using compressed air stored in a tank to feed the engine isn't on that path. you will never see an electric supercharger used in this method. Ever.

      Also, we won't see production electric superchargers until we move to 48V electric systems, or if it's on a plug in hybrid with a higher voltage system.

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    6. #39
      Member JOHN T SHEA's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Needsdecaf View Post
      Sounds like he just did disprove it.

      Look, in theory, it could work. Sure, and powering a car by coal and steam works...but it's not a great idea. As Hounddogger said, you need so much volume to feed the engine, that compressing the air, storing it, and using it on demand is simply a non-starter from an efficiency standpoint. As Hounddogger said, the laws of thermodynamics paint a clear path, and using compressed air stored in a tank to feed the engine isn't on that path. you will never see an electric supercharger used in this method. Ever.

      Also, we won't see production electric superchargers until we move to 48V electric systems, or if it's on a plug in hybrid with a higher voltage system.
      Your second sentence flatly contradicts your first. Only your last paragraph makes sense.

    7. #40
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      Quote Originally Posted by JOHN T SHEA View Post
      I am neither misunderstanding, in error nor disconnected, unlike some. I know what a wastegate is, but the neutral analogy is irrelevant. In no way did I imply any electric supercharger was in production. And Needsdecaf's (duplicated!) homework comment is simply facetious.

      My point remains that this system could dispense its compressed air into the intakes and thereby boost the engine more directly. Nobody can disprove that.
      Quote Originally Posted by JOHN T SHEA View Post
      Your second sentence flatly contradicts your first. Only your last paragraph makes sense.
      No, it doesn't because you can't get the sarcasm. I give up. Your'e right, it's a wonderful idea. It's so great, that no automotive manufacturer has ever even tried to use it.

    8. #41
      Member JOHN T SHEA's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Needsdecaf View Post
      No, it doesn't because you can't get the sarcasm. I give up. Your'e right, it's a wonderful idea. It's so great, that no automotive manufacturer has ever even tried to use it.
      I never said anything was a wonderful idea, just that various types of electric supercharger are possible, some of which are being widely developed by automotive manufacturers. As for giving up, this is the second time you've said that and I'll be very surprised if it's the last.

    9. #42
      Senior Member Johann's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by JOHN T SHEA View Post
      You can't correct me because I'm not wrong. And I never said electric superchargers were in production yet. Neither am I talking about any after-market device. By 'most' I meant any electric supercharger before this rather indirect Volvo one for diesels, such as those developed by VW/Audi and Valeo. Volvo also used a more direct one in their 450 hp ''Triple Boost' version of the Drive-E gasoline engine.
      The Valeo compressor in the intake system the way Volvo uses it basically does the same thing as the compressed air injection in the exhaust manifold. They only thing they do is spin up the existing turbo compressor faster. Both do not add air to feed the engine but they add air flow to spin the turbo wheels to make the turbo deliver air to the engine faster.
      With the 450 HP gasoline engine the Valeo is used to spin up the turbo from the cold side. With the power pulse the compressed air is used to spin up the turbo from the hot side.
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    10. #43
      Member JOHN T SHEA's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Johann View Post
      The Valeo compressor in the intake system the way Volvo uses it basically does the same thing as the compressed air injection in the exhaust manifold. They only thing they do is spin up the existing turbo compressor faster. Both do not add air to feed the engine but they add air flow to spin the turbo wheels to make the turbo deliver air to the engine faster.
      With the 450 HP gasoline engine the Valeo is used to spin up the turbo from the cold side. With the power pulse the compressed air is used to spin up the turbo from the hot side.
      Indeed! An electric supercharger can be attached to a turbocharger at any of three of its four inlet/outlets, that is:-

      1 Exhaust in. Like the Volvo Power Pulse system.
      2 Air in. As in the Volvo Triple Charge system.
      3 Air out. As in the Audi/Valeo system (in series) or in parallel.

      Electric superchargers can also be used alone, of course.

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