J.D. Power 2016 Initial Quality (Volvo drops to 3rd from last)
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    1. #1
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      J.D. Power 2016 Initial Quality (Volvo drops to 3rd from last)

      http://www.jdpower.com/cars/articles...-study-results
      http://www.jdpower.com/press-release...lity-study-iqs

      For just the second time in the 30-year history of the study, U.S. domestic brands collectively have lower problem levels than all their import counterparts combined. The study shows year-over-year quality improvements for all three U.S. domestic automakers, for a combined average of 103 PP100, improving 10% from 2015. This is double the improvement rate of the import brands (106 PP100). The last time U.S. domestic brands outpaced imports was in 2010, when they held an advantage of 1 PP100 (108 PP100 vs. 109 PP100, respectively). For the first time since 2006, non-premium brands have fewer problems (104 PP100) than premium brands (108 PP100).

      According to J.D. Power research, expected reliability remains the most important consideration when purchasing a new vehicle, cited by 49% of owners. Among owners who experience no problems with their vehicle in the first 90 days of owning or leasing, 54% stay with the same brand for their next vehicle. Loyalty drops to 50% among owners who experience one problem with their vehicle and to 45% among those who experience three or more problems.

      “There is a direct correlation between the number of problems a customer has with their new vehicle and the decisions they make when it comes time to purchase or lease their next car or truck,” said Stephens. “While a small drop in actual loyalty may not sound like much, a percentage point drop in share can mean millions of dollars in lost revenue to an automaker.”
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    3. #2
      Global Moderator V70 Brad's Avatar
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      This is why I am waiting a few years before I embrace some of the new technology Volvo is using. Some of the stuff is going to need time to get the bugs fixed.
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      I have to take this with a grain of salt. "Initial quality" seems misleading at worst, and ambiguous at best. Certainly no way Audi, BMW, Volkswagen, Jaguar, Jeep, Chrysler, Dodge, Land Rover, etc., have better longer term reliability. It's that after manufacturer warranty period (36K+ miles) that people should be concerned with.
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      Quote Originally Posted by Bmo Pete View Post
      I have to take this with a grain of salt. "Initial quality" seems misleading at worst, and ambiguous at best. Certainly no way Audi, BMW, Volkswagen, Jaguar, Jeep, Chrysler, Dodge, Land Rover, etc., have better longer term reliability. It's that after manufacturer warranty period (36K+ miles) that people should be concerned with.
      I don't understand what is misleading about what Initial Quality means.

      The J.D. Power U.S. Initial Quality Study SM (IQS) serves as the industry benchmark for new-vehicle quality measured at 90 days of ownership and has proven to be an excellent predictor of long term reliability, which may significantly impact new-vehicle purchase decisions. The focus of the study is model-level performance and comparison of individual models to similar models in respective segments, which helps manufacturers worldwide to design and produce higher-quality vehicles that exceed owners’ expectations.
      http://www.jdpower.com/resource/us-i...lity-study-iqs

      Give the large amount of issues reported on the XC90 forum and especially given how many buybacks there have been, relative to other past new volvo model introductions, there does seem to be a correlation.


      They have a separate dependability study on 3 yr old vehicles.
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      Quote Originally Posted by pattyweb View Post
      I don't understand what is misleading about what Initial Quality means.



      http://www.jdpower.com/resource/us-i...lity-study-iqs

      Give the large amount of issues reported on the XC90 forum and especially given how many buybacks there have been, relative to other past new volvo model introductions, there does seem to be a correlation.


      They have a separate dependability study on 3 yr old vehicles.
      I brought this up in the "can the s60 compete with Germans" thread. People are different about what they consider problems. Since Volvo has gone up against BMW and Audi more openly with the xc90, they are probably seeing more buyers who are less likely to put up with quirks. My .02

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      Quote Originally Posted by V70 Brad View Post
      This is why I am waiting a few years before I embrace some of the new technology Volvo is using. Some of the stuff is going to need time to get the bugs fixed.
      I think I will follow suit. My C30 is only 4 years old, if the V40 arrives in 2 I may wait until the final year of the first generation CMA V40 before I pick one up.

      My biggest concern is carbon build up with direct injected engines. I want to see what Volvo has done on the 3 cylinders to avoid this.

    9. #7
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      Quote Originally Posted by pattyweb View Post
      I don't understand what is misleading about what Initial Quality means.



      http://www.jdpower.com/resource/us-i...lity-study-iqs

      Give the large amount of issues reported on the XC90 forum and especially given how many buybacks there have been, relative to other past new volvo model introductions, there does seem to be a correlation.


      They have a separate dependability study on 3 yr old vehicles.
      I find it misleading in the sense that these rankings suggest that they can fairly predict or project longer term major reliability issues of one brand over another after comparing only 90 days of ownership. One may be mislead to believe that a Porsche or Audi is a more reliable car longer term than a Volvo, when I, and most others know otherwise. A defective sunroof seal in an XC90 repaired under warranty in the first 90 days and little else afterwards, seems a preferable experience than an expensive Porsche or Audi engine failure just out of warranty. So in the first 40k miles, my V60 has had a right hand sticking mirror lowering mechanism addressed, a shim added to the rear drive under warranty. I've had Audi's that ran like a Swiss watch, with vault like interior quality for the first 40k miles, but soon after developed serious engine, transmission and electronic issues. My close friends have experienced blown Audi S4 turbo's, blown Porsche Boxster S and Audi A6 engines between 50k and 75k miles. My mother-in-law's babied '10 Cadillac SRX has been in and out of the shop since 30k miles, but my father-in-law's '08 S80 hasn't had one issue in 90k, and he beats the hell out of that tank. I personally don't prescribe to the little nit picky issues people complain about in the first months of ownership (myself included) correlating to major reliability issues longer term. VW group vehicles have superior fit, finish, and materials quality to anything else in their market segments, but they are known to bite you with major failures not long out of warranty.
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      Quote Originally Posted by Bmo Pete View Post
      One may be mislead to believe that a Porsche or Audi is a more reliable car longer term than a Volvo, when I, and most others know otherwise.
      All depends on how you want to define "longer term". You mentioned after 36k should be the concern. Their study on 3 yr vehicles show the exact opposite of what "you and most others know otherwise". Individual spot cases here and there are meaningless. I've had cars where my experience was not the same, but my data points that counter the report, or even others that I might know of, doesn't mean the report is wrong. It's just a report on the data of what people have been experiencing.

      Also keep in mind, a lot of problems in a single category can bring a brand down. Ford dropped huge in initial quality when they released sync because they had so many problems. Given what I read on the XC90 forum, most likely, it's a similar situation and it's going to take some years for Volvo to improve sensus and make it more reliable. A constantly stalling, crashing, etc infotainment system that is the core of one's vehicle that requires them to pull over and reset their car is hardly, IMO, a "nit picky" issue. Neither is a water leak that can get into electronics and connectors and cause who knows what random electrical problems down the road, "longer term".

      You did mention an '08 S80 as your data point, and if we go back to the dependability studies from '10 and '11, Volvo did do better than Audi back then, but still below the industry average and below porsche.

      Regarding your "blown audi and porsche turbos and engines after the warranty ends", every brand is going to have their issues and demons. Volvo owners have needed engine and transmission replacements too out of warranty.



      The Vehicle Dependability Study (VDS) examines issues reported by original owners of 3-year-old vehicles. This study measures car reliability by analyzing problems experienced over the past 12 months of ownership in such areas as: features and controls; engine and transmission;entertainment and navigation; heating and cooling; the overall driving experience, and more.
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      Reports like this can be a bit deceptive. JDP tracks over 200 items in eight categories. The problem I see is that apparently annoyance issues are given the same weight as problems that leave you stranded.

      I realize that no one wants to buy a new car and hear rattles or have a buggy media system, but that is hardly the same thing as discovering you have a bad transmission or defective brakes. It'd be nice if the study differentiated between cars with annoyances and those that leave you worried if you're going to arrive at your destination.

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      that's the whole point of this though, it is essentially the squeak and rattle survey. If Volvo doesn't sort that out then they deserve to be at the bottom. I know I've seen stupid **** on cars that came in to the shop that should have been corrected at the factory or dealer.
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      So if I buy a new Volvo, I will, on average, have 1.5 problems in the first 90 days. If I buy a Lexus, I will have, on average, 1 problem in the first 90 days. Considering Toyota/Lexus's horrible crash test results lately, I think I'll stay with Volvo.

      And we've owned a 2015.5 XC60 for 1 year and 9 mos, and have had zero problems.
      Last edited by Tostik; 07-09-2016 at 10:15 PM.
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      Quote Originally Posted by inteller View Post
      that's the whole point of this though, it is essentially the squeak and rattle survey. If Volvo doesn't sort that out then they deserve to be at the bottom. I know I've seen stupid **** on cars that came in to the shop that should have been corrected at the factory or dealer.
      No, that is not the whole point, "essentially a squeak and rattle survey". JD says that squeaks and rattles correlate to long term reliability issues. This from JD: "serves as the industry benchmark for new-vehicle quality measured at 90 days of ownership and has proven to be an excellent predictor of longterm reliability, which may significantly impact new-vehicle purchase decisions". In my experience this is crap! I've owned numerous Audi's that were screwed together as solid as a Sherman tank, but had engineering weaknesses in major systems that became very costly not long after the initial 50k mile warranty. I've owned Toyota's, Acura's and Ford's (well Ford w/Mazda engine and tranny) with their cheap interiors, prone to trim wear, shakes and rattles, but ran to near 200k miles with only regular services. Like I said, I take this survey with a grain of salt.
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      Quote Originally Posted by Bmo Pete View Post
      No, that is not the whole point, "essentially a squeak and rattle survey". JD says that squeaks and rattles correlate to long term reliability issues. This from JD: "serves as the industry benchmark for new-vehicle quality measured at 90 days of ownership and has proven to be an excellent predictor of long term reliability, which may significantly impact new-vehicle purchase decisions". In my experience this is crap! I've owned numerous Audi's that were screwed together as solid as a Sherman tank, but had engineering weaknesses in major systems that became very costly not long after the initial 50k mile warranty. I've owned Toyota's, Acura's and Ford's (well Ford w/Mazda engine and tranny) with their cheap interiors, prone to trim wear, shakes and rattles, but ran to near 200k miles with only regular services. Like I said, I take this survey with a grain of salt.
      It's not a "squeak and rattle" survey. They have a survey of "problems" at 90 days and at 36k miles. What exactly their 'analysis' means, I don't know. I agree it would be nice for a better break out of minor from serious problems. JD power did NOT say that "squeaks and rattles correlate to long term reliability issues". You're inferring that because you want to imply that volvo's drop was all about minor things like "squeaks and rattles". "Squeaks and rattles" don't keep XC90s out of service for long durations. The irony is that most XC90 owners are not complaining about just "squeaks and rattles".

      Have you taken the time to compare where a brand is in the Initial Quality list and then where it is in the Dependability list? It looks to me, that for most brands overall, they are not that far from one another so I can understand why they make that statement. Of course, there are going to be exceptions and hopefully ways to explain/understand them. I guess though you feel that your individual experience trumps anything else. You had multiple bad audi experiences and I guess that experience means that Audis are going to suck for all eternity for every single other audi owner. Should a 1st gen XC90 T6 owner that had his transmission fail after the warranty expired (Volvo got sued over this) or an XC90 V8 whose bearing failed and required a new engine give up on Volvo or give Volvo another shot? Since my v70 evaporator hasn't failed yet, does that mean that issue was overblown by all those who did have it fail and needed their entire interior ripped apart to replace it?

      Volvo was higher up on Dependability, and most likely the new XC90 is the reason for their huge drop in Initial Quality. You should browse the XC90 forum, they are not minor complaints. They are mostly technology complaints, but there are other serious issues too and quite a lot of buybacks. Some of those serious issues appear to have been addressed and most likely Volvo is already climbing back up for the next year. I'll bet most brands are experiencing technology issues and that technology is becoming the bigger factor of the Initial Quality report. The general consensus seems to be that Volvo's new voice tech is absolutely worthless and voice tech is consumers #1 complaint. Doesn't bother me, my voice tech works on my current cars, but I'm not a voice tech person so don't really care that much about that. Volvo did not drop because some individual at JD power doesn't like them and just decided to put them there. They ended up down there for a reason, hopefully a temporary one, but it is still a reason that needs to be addressed. Even if they are all because of minor issues, who wants to buy an 'annoying' car full of minor issues?

      These reports do highlight issues and if they didn't exist, brands wouldn't have as much incentive to address issues.

      In Volvo's case, since I know they are in the beginnings of a huge new makeover, I don't take this report as an indicator of future dependability, 'yet', especially since Volvo has such few models and the most important part of the car, the new DriveE engines, has been out for a while. This report to me is the equivalent of a black eye. A lot of XC90 owners feel it was prematurely released. They're not off to a good start with their new sensus technology but I'm sure in time, they will recover. Ford did. Ford has worked their way up in Initial Quality, and they're probably still down in Dependability because those cars from 3 years ago that killed them in Initial Quality are still killing them in long term dependability. Only time will tell if the eye heals for Volvo and this was a makeover hiccup or if there are more serious problems that need to be solved.

      I know you're not alone in taking this report with a grain of salt

      Is J.D. Power IQS a Bunch of BS?

      The Trouble With J.D. Power's Initial Quality Study

      Most likely Volvo is experiencing exactly what happened to Ford. "tried to do too much too quickly"


      Question is, should Volvo ever end up at the top, and then it's competitors are at the bottom, will those that publicly proclaim they don't believe in this report then still publicly proclaim how this report is still meaningless and it means nothing that Volvo made it to the top? Or will they then flip? Maybe we should focus on way more important things like Motor Trend Car of the Year.
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      A data point, I have ordered and purchased two Porsches in the last three years, 2013 & 2017, zero problems, one has 18Kmiles and the other 5K miles, hard miles both.
      So I do see some value in the survey.
      The 2017 has Auto Cruise and Lane Change Assist. both systems work flawlessly.
      In two years I will be looking for a new wagon with lane following et al, MB, Volvo and hopefully Porsche will be under consideration.
      Quality will be a major consideration also.-Richard
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      Quote Originally Posted by budrichard View Post
      A data point, I have ordered and purchased two Porsches in the last three years, 2013 & 2017, zero problems, one has 18Kmiles and the other 5K miles, hard miles both.
      So I do see some value in the survey.
      The 2017 has Auto Cruise and Lane Change Assist. both systems work flawlessly.
      In two years I will be looking for a new wagon with lane following et al, MB, Volvo and hopefully Porsche will be under consideration.
      Quality will be a major consideration also.-Richard
      My friend's babied 2009 Boxster S 3.4 needed a complete engine replacement not long after the 50K warranty expired. Porsche did show goodwill and covered much of the replacement cost after he got corporate involved.

      I'll take the opportunity to highly recommend to everyone to buy the extended warranty. Regardless of JD Power or any other reliability rankings, these are very sophisticated machines with compounded complex systems; any of which is more susceptible to malfunction or failure ($$) not long after the standard warranty expires.
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      Global Moderator V70 Brad's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by mlsstl View Post
      Reports like this can be a bit deceptive. JDP tracks over 200 items in eight categories. The problem I see is that apparently annoyance issues are given the same weight as problems that leave you stranded.
      I also have to wonder about the job the salesman is doing a walk around and explaining the features on the car. Have to wonder about how many "issues" at this stage of the game are really some things that weren't explained correctly on delivery.
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      Fast forward to today and Volvo is still third but this time it is third from last.

      http://www.cnbc.com/2017/06/21/new-v...-struggle.html


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      This graph just shows how reliable all brands have become. If you drive a Toyota the average is one problem in the first year. If you buy a new Volvo, then the average says 1.3 problems per in the first year. Actually, pretty close. That just means that most new Toyota owners and Volvo owners will have just 1 problem in the first year.

      And we're still awaiting the 2017 German Vehicle Dependability Survey. Germans always rate Volvos in the top 4 in this survey, like they did in 2016.

      Last edited by Tostik; 06-21-2017 at 08:01 PM.
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      And while we're at it, here's the 2017 U.S. JD Powers Vehicle Dependability Survey. Notice Volvo and Audi are in a dead heat. Of course, Volvo will blow Audi away when the 2017 German JD Powers VDS survey comes out, like Volvo did in 2016.

      Last edited by Tostik; 06-22-2017 at 12:01 AM.
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      In the US, we have two different reports, the Initial Quality report which is based on the first 90 days of ownership and the Dependability report which is cars from the past 3 years (like the german report).

      So why is Volvo way higher on the German dependability report than on the US dependability?

      My theory is it's because of the car models actually sold. In the US, the XC90, the new model with all the issues is the TOP seller. In Germany, the XC60 is the top seller and by a way way larger margin than the XC90 is here.

      As for Volvo and Audi in germany:

      Germany best selling cars 2017
      http://focus2move.com/germany-best-selling-cars/

      The above site shows the XC60 ranking 58th in germany and the XC90 is not even in the top 100.

      Audi has 9 models in the German top 100, Volvo has 1, the XC60 that hasn't changed much and Volvo has worked out the kinks and I'm sure that's helping them a lot in the german report. I'm sure the audi data (and most other brands too) is influenced because they have so many models, some are old, some are brand new, etc.



      What will be interesting is what the german report shows 3 years from now after the 2nd gen XC60 has been out long enough (assuming it stays their top seller) to show up in the german data. Hopefully volvo will have worked out all the issues by then at which point I would expect Volvo would also be then climbing back up our US initial quality report.
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      That's not entirely correct. Volvo had 152 PP100 in 2016 and improved to 134 PP100 in 2017. That's 18 fewer PP100.

      Furthermore, Volvo is number 4 in brands that improved their PP100 in 2017:
      Mini - 33 fewer PP100
      Ram - 28 fewer PP100
      Acura - 19 fewer PP100
      Volvo - 18 fewer PP100

      While Jaguar added 21 PP100 to their count for 2017.

      Granted, Volvo is still third from the bottom of the list.
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      Don't they say never buy a new year model eg 2016 XC90!!!? I imaging 2018 models will be near flawless, right?

      I have a MY2017 XC90 T8 with no issues that have required me to return to the dealer prematurely (had it 4 1/2 months and 5k miles) but partially because this Forum provided answers to the few issues I have had...

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      Quote Originally Posted by sdedson View Post
      I imaging 2018 models will be near flawless, right?

      While I doubt it will be flawless I do feel majority of the issues will be worked out and that is why I didn't rush back to my dealership after the first round.
      This time around it will be a 2018 T8 Inscription and hopefully will be less of a beta-testing scenario.

    28. #26
      The JD Power IQS survey is a scam. Basically, anything a respondent doesn't like about the car is considered a defect. If you don't how your Bluetooth works, or your Nav, or how your mirrors are placed it's a defect.
      When I was with BMW we had a series of meetings to improve BMW's ranking. It was based on making sure people knew how to operate the technology and make sure they understood and were comfortable with how the car worked. That's why BMW has a Genius program. The cars aren't any different, it's just now people understand them better. We always made sure our customers brought the cars back in for a second delivery to go over any issues or uncertainties. If Volvo had a similar program I believe their numbers would improve significantly.

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      "We always made sure our customers brought the cars back in for a second delivery to go over any issues or uncertainties. "
      wow that is commitment to customer satisfaction.

    30. #28
      Quote Originally Posted by freddell View Post
      "We always made sure our customers brought the cars back in for a second delivery to go over any issues or uncertainties. "
      wow that is commitment to customer satisfaction.
      You would be surprised to see how much customer satisfaction goes up when they know how to properly operate their vehicles. It's too much to absorb at once, especially after a couple hours in the dealership.
      BMW's JD Power numbers went up with this approach. The cars aren't any better.

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