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    1. #1

      Cast iron block...

      Well after more than 75k miles and 6 years of daily driving an R, I finally cracked a block.

      Car is bone stock if you can believe it, I have been too lazy to install any of my parts yet.


      Time for terrible ideas to pop into my brain. What the R market needs is some one to step up to the plate and reproduce the R block in cast iron instead of aluminum.

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    3. #2
      Member MN-TURBOR's Avatar
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      that sucks!

      you had no issues with your car and it still cracked?

      going to build the motor? 2.3 swap?
      2007 S60R - Ti Grey/Atacama M66 - Stage II Shark Tune - 8EightFab downpipe - Custom Magnaflow Exhaust - SNABB FMIC/Intake Pipe - TWM Short Shifter - Forge CBV - UR Front Brace/Rear Brace - IPD 28mm Rear Sway Bar - BC Racing Coilovers
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    4. #3
      Junior Member taloras's Avatar
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      Our cars are a victim of design and dimensions, not materials. The bore spacing is just too damned narrow for the R's overbored open-deck siamesed cylinders, no cast iron is going to fix that. Especially with that useless damned cooling slot.
      2004 Moose Longroof Go-Fast Row-It-Yourself

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    6. #4
      Junior Member kelsey's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by spinall4 View Post
      Well after more than 75k miles and 6 years of daily driving an R, I finally cracked a block.

      Car is bone stock if you can believe it, I have been too lazy to install any of my parts yet.


      Time for terrible ideas to pop into my brain. What the R market needs is some one to step up to the plate and reproduce the R block in cast iron instead of aluminum.
      I suppose you could just hack off a cylinder from a supra engine and call it a day.
      2007 S60R Electric Silver Atacama M66

    7. #5
      Quote Originally Posted by taloras View Post
      Our cars are a victim of design and dimensions, not materials. The bore spacing is just too damned narrow for the R's overbored open-deck siamesed cylinders, no cast iron is going to fix that. Especially with that useless damned cooling slot.
      While agree 100 percent that Volvo ****ed the R owners on this design by trying to over bore the bock where they had no business on an already ****ty design, if this were 100 percent true wouldn't everyone just keep blowing up R blocks with the Darton cast iron sleeves pressed in, and that is not the case. I don't think I have heard of a single Darton sleeved block failing from being too thin in between the two cylinders.

      I'm not talking about reproducing the R block as a 100 percent copy just in cast iron. I'm talking about upgrading the R block to a closed deck design and locking the tops of the cylinder in place. Sort of how you could buy "super duty" engine blocks from the GM and the other domestic manufactures because the normal production block V8's in the production cars sucked.

      All of the the Japanese turbo cars from the 90's had cast iron closed deck blocks that were all good to past 1000 hp with the right rods and pistons in them. Its dumb that Volvo gave us rods and pistons that can take a ton of abuse, but a block the that crack's at stock power level. My guess is that the 2.5l motor was only intended to be good to 210 hp that LPT 2.5 turbo cars have, I don't think any of the LPT car's crack blocks at the stock hp level. Its only when the 2.5l block is exposed to 300 hp that it starts to have all these issues.

      Instead of totally doing something different for the R block, they used the 2.5l block already in the LPT 2.5 cars and tried to make do with what they had.

      Volvo is not the first manufacture to get busted for using sub par materials and processes. The 6.5l turbo diesel motor from GM in the 1990's chevy trucks and AM generaral H1 hummers is a steaming pile of ****, and all the time even though the blocks are cast iron, the cylinder head or starter motor threads will crack and pull right out out of the block.
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    8. #6
      The Mitsubishi 4g63t bare block:



      The Mitsubishi 6G72 block:


      The 2jzgte:



      The Toyota 3sgte:


      The Nissan RB26:



      The nissan Vg30DET:



      Its no accident that these all very different motors all have cast iron closed deck blocks that look very similar.


      Vs our **** blocks that crack stock:

      2004 V70R m/t Parting Out see classifieds https://forums.swedespeed.com/showthr...per-spare-tire
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    9. #7
      Member Body Massage's Avatar
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      I'd think with the heat generated by these engines, cast iron would be a no-no.

      But I'm no engineer.
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    10. #8
      Member BrotherMatt's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by spinall4 View Post
      While agree 100 percent that Volvo ****ed the R owners on this design by trying to over bore the bock where they had no business on an already ****ty design, if this were 100 percent true wouldn't everyone just keep blowing up R blocks with the Darton cast iron sleeves pressed in, and that is not the case. I don't think I have heard of a single Darton sleeved block failing from being too thin in between the two cylinders.

      I'm not talking about reproducing the R block as a 100 percent copy just in cast iron. I'm talking about upgrading the R block to a closed deck design and locking the tops of the cylinder in place. Sort of how you could buy "super duty" engine blocks from the GM and the other domestic manufactures because the normal production block V8's in the production cars sucked.
      So you agree that the tried and true Darton sleeving solution has already proven it's worth. Knowing this, I would be surprised if any aftermarket manufacturer would be willing to take on the time and expense of designing a closed deck block for cars with such a limited production run and a limited set of aftermarket customers. Especially being that there's already a viable solution that has been on the market for years and would probably beat them out in price. To boot they'd have the variables of using a different material than the original block and having to work out how this closed deck design would handle heat dissipation. If this was a large scale production GM or Ford block I might see someone dropping the coin for R&D to bring this to market. For these cars, there's just no way.
      2005 S60R MT Swap: CNT DP, PhMIC, Forge CBV, IPD Stage II Tune, WiseCo pistons, CXRacing rods, Viva inconnel exhaust valves, Viva stainless steel intake valves, shimmed block, 12mm x 17mm spacers, IPD track spec sways, Projector retrofitted headlamps, among other things.

    11. #9
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      I was just reading about this. Doesn't Re-volv have something in the works?

      Also can anyone actually confirm that these blocks crack simply due to being too thin in the cyl wall, and not also some other issue combined with it? Why is it that some stock blocks crack way down the line but others much sooner?

      It's always seemed like speculation to me.

      Anyhow spinall, it's time to build this biatch!!!!
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    12. #10
      Member T501's Avatar
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      Time to learn how to Dougy!
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    13. #11
      Junior Member taloras's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by T501 View Post
      Time to learn how to Dougy!
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    14. #12
      Member StealthyS60R's Avatar
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      Just sleeve it and be done with it by correcting the R's main achillies heel, with the other being worn down AG collar splines, lol.

      Even after 40K miles my rebuild is still performing at 100% of what she did when new, and oil consumption is below a quart every 6K miles.

    15. #13
      Quote Originally Posted by BrotherMatt View Post
      So you agree that the tried and true Darton sleeving solution has already proven it's worth. Knowing this, I would be surprised if any aftermarket manufacturer would be willing to take on the time and expense of designing a closed deck block for cars with such a limited production run and a limited set of aftermarket customers. Especially being that there's already a viable solution that has been on the market for years and would probably beat them out in price. To boot they'd have the variables of using a different material than the original block and having to work out how this closed deck design would handle heat dissipation. If this was a large scale production GM or Ford block I might see someone dropping the coin for R&D to bring this to market. For these cars, there's just no way.
      I do think that the Darton sleves do a fine job, they do still have some problems.

      1. While they work great as long as you get some one that knows exactly what they are doing to press them in, one mistake and you can have all sorts of problems. I would be fine having darton do the work, or CJ Youther I wouldn't' just trust this job to jim bob down at every local machine shop.

      2. The darton sleeves work fine for a race car weekend warrior type setup, I don't think they will have the long term care free ability to throw another 100,000 or 200,000 mi on a sleeved block with no issues. Fine in a race car, not great in a street car.

      3. The machine work to have the sleeves pressed in is expensive. Expensive enough that pretty much every single person that does them, also does a fully built motor with forged internals. Easy to have 5-10 Thousand dollars into an all out build like this. Not that many people are hard core enough to spend that sort of money on an R.

      IF the new cast iron block was setup up with the right bore, people could re use the stock pistons & rods with new rings and hard wear. IF the stock rods and pistons are good to 500 hp then most people would be ok with just a cast iron block with the stock rods and pistons in it. There are probably only 50 people in the world that have gone about 500 hp in the R. In stead of all the people doing 2.4 T5 blocks, they could do the cast iron block with the stock rods and pistons in it.








      Quote Originally Posted by Hoenig View Post
      I was just reading about this. Doesn't Re-volv have something in the works?

      Also can anyone actually confirm that these blocks crack simply due to being too thin in the cyl wall, and not also some other issue combined with it? Why is it that some stock blocks crack way down the line but others much sooner?

      It's always seemed like speculation to me.

      Anyhow spinall, it's time to build this biatch!!!!
      My car R is 100 percent stock right now, with just over 100,000 mi on it. I bought it 4 years ago with only 57k on the clock. I drive the car like I stole it, but it has had very good up keep. Oil changes every 2,500 mi with GC 0w40 oil, I've been working on full stage 0. It has had the fuel filter replaced, the air filter replaced, the coolant flushed with Pentafrost NF, Pentosin power steering fluid flushed, 3309 atf fluid flushes, AMSoil SG 75w90 in the angle gear, I just finished doing a full tune up with new spark plugs, and cleaned the cylinders with mopar combustion chamber cleaner.

      Only premium 91 octane gas from Chevron (the best we get) except for about six months of 93 from Shell.

      I'm actually going to get my Nissan 300zx TT back together then I'm going to put it up for sale for good. Once it's gone I'm going to put the V70R in its spot in my shop pull the motor out and either darton sleeve the block or do up a 2.4 dougy style. With my Z32 sold that will free up the $$$ to build a motor. I will also find a 3rd Volvo to buy so I have something to drive while my car is down in stead of just using my wife's XC60 T6.




      Quote Originally Posted by T501 View Post
      Time to learn how to Dougy!
      Seriously I have been thinking about the 2.4 T5 block a ton.
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    16. #14
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      Quote Originally Posted by spinall4 View Post

      My car R is 100 percent stock right now, with just over 100,000 mi on it. I bought it 4 years ago with only 57k on the clock. I drive the car like I stole it, but it has had very good up keep. Oil changes every 2,500 mi with GC 0w40 oil, I've been working on full stage 0. It has had the fuel filter replaced, the air filter replaced, the coolant flushed with Pentafrost NF, Pentosin power steering fluid flushed, 3309 atf fluid flushes, AMSoil SG 75w90 in the angle gear, I just finished doing a full tune up with new spark plugs, and cleaned the cylinders with mopar combustion chamber cleaner.

      Only premium 91 octane gas from Chevron (the best we get) except for about six months of 93 from Shell.
      Disconcerting sir...very disconcerting..... I've read cooling issues have a lot to do with it, whats your take on that?
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    17. #15
      Member T501's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by spinall4 View Post

      Seriously I have been thinking about the 2.4 T5 block a ton.
      That would be an improvement but I'm pretty sure Dougy is running a 2.3 T5 block.
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    18. #16
      Member khalil_y's Avatar
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      Go ask the Alpha guys to make us a billet B525 block
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    19. #17
      Member Hounddogger's Avatar
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      It's idiotic to make the R block in cast iron... Too heavy. If you're going to make a block CNC one out of aluminum with a closed deck... Or just sleeve the block. 8k out the door gets you a darton'd long block. Try that.
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    20. #18
      Member Hounddogger's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by T501 View Post
      That would be an improvement but I'm pretty sure Dougy is running a 2.3 T5 block.
      The 2.4T T5 block is better in every way, just scarcer because it isn't in all of those blown transmission 01-04 T5s...
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    21. #19
      Member T501's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Hounddogger View Post
      The 2.4T T5 block is better in every way, just scarcer because it isn't in all of those blown transmission 01-04 T5s...
      Are you saying that because it produces more power or is there something else about that is inherently better than the 2.3 block?
      David - '01 S60 T5 GT 205K+ miles OWNED SINCE DAY ONE - Bilstein Sport + TME, ipd sway bar + endlinks, UR chassis braces (upper F+R), Powerslot /Akebono pads, Snabb Intake, iMIV Original engine, transmission replaced at 78k miles
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    22. #20
      Member Hounddogger's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by T501 View Post
      Are you saying that because it produces more power or is there something else about that is inherently better than the 2.3 block?
      There are a lot of internal improvements. It has R internals and an R head, just an 81mm bore. Lighter crank, stronger rods, it's stroked, etc... literally the only difference between an R engine and a late T5 are the oil pan (no sensor), fuel injectors, and bore. That is it.
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    23. #21
      Quote Originally Posted by Hounddogger View Post
      It's idiotic to make the R block in cast iron... Too heavy. If you're going to make a block CNC one out of aluminum with a closed deck... Or just sleeve the block. 8k out the door gets you a darton'd long block. Try that.
      I remember a while back reading a story on Nissan developing the SR20 motor from the start for boost. They said that after they got done reinforcing the SR20's aluminum block for boost, the difference only ended up being 44 lbs saved over a cast iron block 4 cylinder. Adjusted for us having 5 cylinders, that's 55 lbs.

      On a striped down race car, yes I could see that being a difference but in our cars that are so heavy already, 55 lbs is nothing. Both of my V70R's have weighed over 4000 lbs with no driver in the car.

      I plugged those numbers into the 1/4 mile calculator and that's a .06 second difference in 1/4 mile times. Or going from a 15 second 1/4 mile to a 15.063. Not a huge difference.

      Most of the guys on this boar who have a system in the R have probably added more than 55 lbs to the car.
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      Isnt the 2.4 the same as the 2.3 in terms of bore (thus also 81mm)?

      IIRC it's the stroke from the longer and also stronger rod that makes it a 2.4.

      139mm length for '93 to '01 2.3l and 143mm for the B5244T4/B5244T5 2.4l and B5254T4 2.5l
      Last edited by Vasquez; 03-23-2017 at 03:20 PM.

    25. #23
      Member khalil_y's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Vasquez View Post
      Isnt the 2.4 the same as the 2.3 in terms of bore (thus also 81mm)?

      IIRC it's the stroke from the longer and also stronger rod that makes it a 2.4.

      139mm length for '93 to '01 2.3l and 143mm for the B5244T4/B5244T5 2.4l and B5254T4 2.5l
      Yeah I think the 2.4 has a 9:1 compression ratio

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    26. #24
      Member jstro's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by spinall4 View Post

      Its no accident that these all very different motors all have cast iron closed deck blocks that look very similar.


      Vs our **** blocks that crack stock:


      That's odd, my block looks very different





      Gone

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      Over here in Europa people in the 850 and V70 classic-scene seem to be switching over to low mileage 2.4 T5 engines instead of completely re-building a 2.3 (with boring, honing and new pistons) when doing performance builds.
      The 2.4 has proven that it can hold up to 500 bhp without even opening the engine for upgrading rods and pistons, so a low mileage 2.4 with stock internals is a lot cheaper than rebuilding a 2.3 or doing an even more expensive 2.5 build with Darton sleeves.

      Definitely think the Darton sleeves are the strongest option but also the most expensive and most time consuming, not always preferable if crazy high horsepower is not a goal.
      One thing is strange though, shimming is not as common and hardly done over here.

    28. #26
      Member Hounddogger's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by khalil_y View Post
      Yeah I think the 2.4 has a 9:1 compression ratio

      Sent from my HTC 10 using Tapatalk
      No. It's 8.5:1. You're thinking of the 83mm lpt 2.4 from 00-03
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    29. #27
      Member Bigfieroman's Avatar
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      Ahem:

      https://forums.swedespeed.com/showthr...-Shimmed-Block

      Everyone regards shimming as kind of a half-assed solution, but really, how many have you seen fail? I get frustrated when people are quick to suggest Dartons when this issue comes up. Sure, they are good, and if installed by a proper machine shop, can hold a ton of power, but as has been mentioned, that is an $8k solution and has unproven long-term durability.

      I, for one, am giving shims a shot. I hope to make 400whp after my build is complete, and with a Hilton tune and meth injection, I feel that my block will be fine. I couldn't find anyone that failed a shimmed block beyond the one guy that ran mods with no tune to compensate.
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    30. #28
      Member khalil_y's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Bigfieroman View Post
      Ahem:

      https://forums.swedespeed.com/showthr...-Shimmed-Block

      Everyone regards shimming as kind of a half-assed solution, but really, how many have you seen fail? I get frustrated when people are quick to suggest Dartons when this issue comes up. Sure, they are good, and if installed by a proper machine shop, can hold a ton of power, but as has been mentioned, that is an $8k solution and has unproven long-term durability.

      I, for one, am giving shims a shot. I hope to make 400whp after my build is complete, and with a Hilton tune and meth injection, I feel that my block will be fine. I couldn't find anyone that failed a shimmed block beyond the one guy that ran mods with no tune to compensate.
      I agree with this. I think the highest HP with shims right now is Dougy's R.

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    31. #29
      Global Moderator R-Pow3R3d's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Bigfieroman View Post
      Ahem:

      https://forums.swedespeed.com/showthr...-Shimmed-Block

      Everyone regards shimming as kind of a half-assed solution, but really, how many have you seen fail? I get frustrated when people are quick to suggest Dartons when this issue comes up. Sure, they are good, and if installed by a proper machine shop, can hold a ton of power, but as has been mentioned, that is an $8k solution and has unproven long-term durability.

      I, for one, am giving shims a shot. I hope to make 400whp after my build is complete, and with a Hilton tune and meth injection, I feel that my block will be fine. I couldn't find anyone that failed a shimmed block beyond the one guy that ran mods with no tune to compensate.
      Just for balance, shimming is equally unproven in terms of reliability, but it is definitely MUCH cheaper.
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    32. #30
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      Quote Originally Posted by R-Pow3R3d View Post
      Just for balance, shimming is equally unproven in terms of reliability, but it is definitely MUCH cheaper.
      What I was referring to is the tendency of Dartons to "drop" in the block through multiple heat cycles. The factory liners are cast into the block, pretty much guaranteeing that they will stay where intended, but the Dartons are pressed into precisely machined sections of the block. This bond is never going to be as strong as casting them in, even if you freeze the sleeves and heat the block.

      With shims, IF they actually work to strengthen the cylinder walls as intended (anecdotal evidence says that they do at least to match the non-siamesed areas), that they will continue to do so forever. The shims are under no vertical load when in place other than gravity, and I can tell you that from the persuasion I had to use to install them, they are not going to move in normal operation.
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    33. #31
      Member T501's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Hounddogger View Post
      There are a lot of internal improvements. It has R internals and an R head, just an 81mm bore. Lighter crank, stronger rods, it's stroked, etc... literally the only difference between an R engine and a late T5 are the oil pan (no sensor), fuel injectors, and bore. That is it.
      I see, you're talking about the '05 and up 2.4.
      David - '01 S60 T5 GT 205K+ miles OWNED SINCE DAY ONE - Bilstein Sport + TME, ipd sway bar + endlinks, UR chassis braces (upper F+R), Powerslot /Akebono pads, Snabb Intake, iMIV Original engine, transmission replaced at 78k miles
      Wife -'13 C30 T5 R-Design 63k+ miles Dad - '98 S70 T5 205k + miles, Bilstein TCs, IPD HD rear springs, SAS delete Mom -'10 S80 V8 Executive Sis - '02 S80 T6 Backup car -'13 S60 T5 (Not as fun as my '01)
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      '95 850 '92 960

    34. #32
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      Maintenance kept up? Do a lot of hard driving? A lot of hot weather? Lots of sport mode?

      Or do you baby it, keep everything in working order and the sucker just popped? Somewhere in between these two scenarios?

      What kind of gas?
      Last edited by victhevolvo; 03-23-2017 at 09:11 PM.
      2006 S60R GT, Magibi (magic blue/Gobi), Stage 0, IPD catback
      '98 S70 GLT (Donated)
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    35. #33
      Member StealthyS60R's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Bigfieroman View Post
      What I was referring to is the tendency of Dartons to "drop" in the block through multiple heat cycles. The factory liners are cast into the block, pretty much guaranteeing that they will stay where intended, but the Dartons are pressed into precisely machined sections of the block. This bond is never going to be as strong as casting them in, even if you freeze the sleeves and heat the block.

      With shims, IF they actually work to strengthen the cylinder walls as intended (anecdotal evidence says that they do at least to match the non-siamesed areas), that they will continue to do so forever. The shims are under no vertical load when in place other than gravity, and I can tell you that from the persuasion I had to use to install them, they are not going to move in normal operation.
      A rather flawed theory, especially when you consider that most long life industrial engines have replaceable wet sleeves.

      As long as they are machined and installed correctly they should last as long as any other engine would. If they dropped its because the people that installed them screwed up the job.

    36. #34
      Member Bigfieroman's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by StealthyS60R View Post
      A rather flawed theory, especially when you consider that most long life industrial engines have replaceable wet sleeves.

      As long as they are machined and installed correctly they should last as long as any other engine would. If they dropped its because the people that installed them screwed up the job.
      I did not mean to imply that all non-cast-in sleeves in engines are unreliable. A big industrial engine that is specifically designed for sleeves has features that prevent sleeves from dropping.
      See the smaller diameter on the bottom and the lip on the top? Those sit in channels in the block, so it is mechanically held from below and retained on top by the head.

      Dartons adapted to our blocks are pressed into a machined hole under a tight heat-shrink fit. It CAN be done correctly if the block is sufficiently heated and the sleeves are frozen and the machining is just right, etc etc. It is tough to find a machine shop that knows what they are doing, and there is really no way to be sure they did it correctly and the sleeves will last...either one will drop, or it never happens.

      That being said, the shop that rebuilt my head does motor sleeving frequently, so if I crack a liner and I am forced to eat all of these words, I will probably drop the $4k+ to have them installed in my spare block.
      2006 Sonicama V70R M66, with every available option!

    37. #35
      Member Hounddogger's Avatar
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      They also epoxy the sleeves in. I think it comes down to idiot machine shops not understanding wtf they're doing.
      Exponents kill
      Elsa: 2004 V70R Silver Metallic&Nordkap Back from Valhalla @ 357,098 miles

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