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    1. #36
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      Quote Originally Posted by Bunnspeed View Post
      I canít see sigís on my iPhone so you might want to post them in case others canít see them either.

      A few thoughts before assuming itís a mechanical issue:

      Try getting some Shell 93. Iím not sure but I donít think Exxon is a Top Tier gas. Even if it is, fuel quality is only as good as the franchise you are buying it at. Perhaps youíll find better gas elsewhere.

      Keep in mind my 109 trap speed was running a good percentage of 109 octane race gas and it was a very cold night at the track. That helped a lot. These cars, at least once they are tuned, seem to respond well to more octane and also cold air. My 109 was right around freezing temps and trap speeds would have been lower in warmer air.

      Do you have the Snabb intake? That may have opened up my top end pull considerably.

      I donít trust the ECU to tell you how much boost the TDI is actually making, just how much boost the ECU thinks itís making while being fooled by the box and its sensors into responding to altered readings, causing it to make more boost thinking itís running the stock tune. The only boost readings Iíd trust would be with a boost tap and a mechanical boost gauge giving you actual readings. Mechanical boost gauges can be of by a couple of psi but they can at least help you see if you make more or less real boost at various states of tune.

      The jerky pull sensation you described worries me though. It could be any number of things but my first worry is youíre running into timing pull, which can result from suboptimal fuel, or it could be the wastegate and eCRV fighting to meet boost targets during a boost leak situation. It could also be a failed eCRV (letís call it a dv for ease of typing) creating a leak, as the dv has a diaphragm that has been known to rip under heavy use and increases boost levels. I havenít heard of dvís failing on these cars but similar dvís were a common failure point on tuned VWs and were usually replaced with an upgraded plunger style one as preventative maintenance. You can rebuild yours with a heavier duty Go Fast Bits DV+ assembly, which I would recommend as it leaves electronic actuation in place, unlike the vacuum-only pCRV option which could cause uncontrolled spikes, overboost and surges. You might also be having a coil pack, plug gap, or fuel delivery issue. Or perhaps your PCV needs to be replaced. Have you tested it?

      Without logging properly you can start throwing money at hardware hoping youíll fix the issue eventually.

      Hereís another biggie that can create drivability issues: moisture in the tank. Run a bottle of yellow HEET with your next tankful just to be sure that isnít a factor.


      Ill address the easy ones

      1. I ran a bottle of heat through the last tank of gas. (after reading your suggestion)
      2. my last tank of gas was shell 93 i didnt notice any difference. Exxon IS a top tier fuel. On this one though, if the difference between top tier fuels is enough for it to pull boost. I dont feel safe running it.
      3. Spark plugs were replaced last summer before the hilton tune. Gap was verified several times, and adjusted. Ive only put about 5000 miles on the car since then. I also have the 1 step colder plugs coming monday I will give those a shot, make sure they are gapped etc.
      4. The PCV was replaced shortly after i bought the car. It had the death squeal. ROughly about 20k miles ago. Noises have never returned.


      For the Boost readings, I know thats only what the ECU thinks is being read since the TDI is essentially lying too it. My thoughts though, are that 8PSI seems awfully low for the eCU to be seeing. Compared to the 12 at mode 4. (again fake reading) If i understand how the TDI works correctly. It under reports boost to trick the engine into requesting more from the Turbo. Thats why i am curious to see what You or somone else sees the ECU report at wot. If its higher by a considerable margin, then my car may be either pulling boost, or having a boost leak.


      The car does have 115k miles on it, so i certainly wont rule out the DV. Viva makes an upgraded OEM model, that i will probably just buy.

      The other area i could see myself having an issue is with the Intercooler piping. I didnt replace it when i put it on. Also with the Oil leaks the car had, its possible some of the houses could be damaged. I know there was a good ammount of oil on the Hose coming from the turbo.

      as for the Coil packs. I think I am just going to go ahead and replace them. I had my thoughts about them last summer, in VWs its common for coils to fail with increased boost (on older cars).


      Edit:

      Adding in mods: IPD Turbo back, d088 FMIC, K&N drop in, powerflex mount insert. (those are the ones that matter anyway)

      Also i realize I didnt address the snab. I had a snabb intake when i was working with hilton. Didnt seem to make any difference to the car aside from noise.
      Last edited by 04lss; 04-13-2019 at 02:45 PM.
      2012 S60 T6 (non R), P*, do88 FMIC, k&N drop in, IPD Sway Bar, PowerFlex "RACE" Torque Mount insert, Stop Tech Slotted Rotors, IPD turbo Back exhaust, More to come?.

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    3. #37
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      Lots of good answers here, but maybe I can suggest a different way to think about it...

      Ask yourself; Do I want to go fast or do I want to tinker with my car? Sometimes doing one limits your ability to do the other.

      Now, I totally get the "tinkering" thing. I spent thousands and thousands of dollars and countless hours in the garage "modding" my cars (one in particular).

      However, one day a buddy twisted my arm and conviced me to sign up for an autocross. The needle struck deep into a vein, and I then committed a big portion of my life and resources to autocrossing, drag racing, time trials, HPDEs, and racing schools.

      Along the way I discovered that that many of the "improvements" I made to my car actually inhibited my ability to earn one of those silly $5 trophies that I craved. Specifically, any time you make a modification, it can bump you up a class. Often, it bumps you into a place where you have SOME of the allowed mods, but not ALL of them, placing you at a disadvantage relative to the guys that are prepared to the limit of the rules.

      Perhaps more importantly is the need for experience. If you upgrade your car with a race-type suspension and a bigger turbo, you might improve by a second or so on an autocross course. However, the difference between a skilled, experienced driver and a novice can be 5 or maybe even 10 seconds. So, if you have limited funds like 99.99% of the world, you'd see better bang for the buck by spending on entrance fees, tires, and travel.

      Another point... When you attack an on-ramp or launch hard away from a stoplight, you maybe spending 3 to 5 seconds with your car near the limit of its abilities. If you go to an autocross, you'll do 4 or 5 full-out runs that will leave you panting. If you do an HPDE, you will probably burn a full tank of gas at wide-open throttle.

      Again, I'm not being critical. I LOVE tinkering with cars and managed to make a career out of it. Just trying to highlight some exciting alternatives for your gearhead dollar.
      Last edited by Dyno; 04-14-2019 at 10:09 AM.

    4. #38
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      Quote Originally Posted by Dyno View Post
      Lots of good answers here, but maybe I can suggest a different way to think about it...

      Ask yourself; Do I want to go fast or do I want to tinker with my car? Sometimes doing one limits your ability to do the other.

      Now, I totally get the "tinkering" thing. I spent thousands and thousands of dollars and countless hours in the garage "modding" my cars (one in particular).

      However, one day a buddy twisted my arm and conviced me to sign up for an autocross. The needle struck deep into a vein, and I then committed a big portion of my life and resources to autocrossing, drag racing, time trials, HPDEs, and racing schools.

      Along the way I discovered that that many of the "improvements" I made to my car actually inhibited my ability to earn one of those silly $5 trophies that I craved. Specifically, any time you make a modification, it can bump you up a class. Often, it bumps you into a place where you have SOME of the allowed mods, but not ALL of them, placing you at a disadvantage relative to the guys that are prepared to the limit of the rulles.

      Perhaps more importantly is the need for experience. If you upgrade your car with a race-type suspension and a bigger turbo, you might improve by a second or so on an autocross course. However, the difference between a skilled, experienced driver and a novice can be 5 or maybe even 10 seconds. So, if you have limited funds like 99.99% of the world, you'd see better bang for the buck by spending on entrance fees, tires, and travel.

      Another point... When you attack an on-ramp or launch hard away from a stoplight, you maybe spending 3 to 5 seconds with your car near the limit of its abilities. If you go to an autocross, you'll do 4 or 5 full-out runs that will leave you panting. If you do an HPDE, you will probably burn a full tank of gas at wide-open throttle.

      Again, I'm not being critical. I LOVE tinkering with cars and managed to make a career out of it. Just trying to highlight some exciting alternatives for your gearhead dollar.

      I agree with you on a lot of points.

      I actually do autox. The volvo was the first car i drove. Now however i have a 2017 GTI i use.
      I am actually attending an Autox School day on the 27th The best mod one can do is the driver mod.


      But with the volvo, I simply want it to SHOVE me back in my seat. I have ALWAYS wanted a car that gets to 60 in a ridiculously quick fashion.
      My GTI is the focus of my Track day efforts. Things like biger breaks, coilovers and ultra grippy tires matter on that car.

      The volvo is my cruising car, so i have completely different aspirations.

      One thing i share across all my cars, is that I would rather modify it to be how i want to drive it, than modify it to be more competitive. I do autox, because its fun, not because i can win. Perhaps in a few years when i have some skill, i will get a car like a miata and do a class spec build with it. For now, im just having fun.


      All that back to the core point, I want a car to get from 0-60 as quickly as possible.



      EDIT:

      It's also worth noting that the T6 and the Rdesign are in the same class according to SCCA. However, if you do the polestar tune, you are automatically bumped into a different class. Despite the Rdesign having better suspension etc. I was NEVER going to have a chance with the S60. (not that i cared)
      Last edited by 04lss; 04-14-2019 at 10:17 AM.
      2012 S60 T6 (non R), P*, do88 FMIC, k&N drop in, IPD Sway Bar, PowerFlex "RACE" Torque Mount insert, Stop Tech Slotted Rotors, IPD turbo Back exhaust, More to come?.

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    6. #39
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      Welcome to the Brotherhood.
      Last edited by Dyno; 04-14-2019 at 10:13 AM.

    7. #40
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      Quote Originally Posted by 04lss View Post
      It's also worth noting that the T6 and the Rdesign are in the same class according to SCCA. However, if you do the polestar tune, you are automatically bumped into a different class. Despite the Rdesign having better suspension etc. I was NEVER going to have a chance with the S60. (not that i cared)
      That's kind of ridiculous by the SCCA since the T6 R-Design models come from the factory with the Polestar tune.

      Anyway, wanted to drop in and say that this has been an incredibly interesting thread with lots of great, methodical, trouble-shooting.
      I'm not good, I'm not nice, I'm just right.
      2012 S60 T6 R-Design | 1998 S70 T5 SE | 1986 944 Turbo

    8. #41
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      Here is where I am with my line of thinking:

      My number one idea is the eCRV. If the turbo is working overtime to make the boost figures, then it is probably out of its efficiency range, which could be causing timing to pull. It could be the car with my current mods can accommodate it at stock levels, but not at higher boost levels. With this item being known to wear with age and to fail with hard driving etc, and my car being at 115, this seems likely. (this is just my best guess) Regardless of it being the issue, if i do end up doing a big turbo (pending sorting this stuff out) I will probably need one at some point.


      One thing I am curious about, that could help prove this theory is the boost that you TDI guys are seeing in mode 7. That is the boost the ECU is reporting. If my numbers are lower, that would mean that the TDI box is trying to prompt more boost that for some reason the car isn't delivering. At least that's my hypothesis. I think the box works by under reporting boost to the ECU, which then requests more from the turbo. Once the proper boost is achieved the box provides the ECU with what its expecting to see.



      If that fails, I will probably sell the TDI box, use the money to buy a dice and some coil packs. I will have Hilton apply the tune I own, and Hopefully that will see the issue fixed.


      on another note, Is there any value in adding race fuel? if the car is faster i guess that tells me i have timing pull somewhere, if not then i definitely have a turbo or boost related issue. (my thinking anyway)
      2012 S60 T6 (non R), P*, do88 FMIC, k&N drop in, IPD Sway Bar, PowerFlex "RACE" Torque Mount insert, Stop Tech Slotted Rotors, IPD turbo Back exhaust, More to come?.

    9. #42
      Quote Originally Posted by 04lss View Post
      Here is where I am with my line of thinking:

      My number one idea is the eCRV. If the turbo is working overtime to make the boost figures, then it is probably out of its efficiency range, which could be causing timing to pull. It could be the car with my current mods can accommodate it at stock levels, but not at higher boost levels. With this item being known to wear with age and to fail with hard driving etc, and my car being at 115, this seems likely. (this is just my best guess) Regardless of it being the issue, if i do end up doing a big turbo (pending sorting this stuff out) I will probably need one at some point.


      One thing I am curious about, that could help prove this theory is the boost that you TDI guys are seeing in mode 7. That is the boost the ECU is reporting. If my numbers are lower, that would mean that the TDI box is trying to prompt more boost that for some reason the car isn't delivering. At least that's my hypothesis. I think the box works by under reporting boost to the ECU, which then requests more from the turbo. Once the proper boost is achieved the box provides the ECU with what its expecting to see.



      If that fails, I will probably sell the TDI box, use the money to buy a dice and some coil packs. I will have Hilton apply the tune I own, and Hopefully that will see the issue fixed.


      on another note, Is there any value in adding race fuel? if the car is faster i guess that tells me i have timing pull somewhere, if not then i definitely have a turbo or boost related issue. (my thinking anyway)
      Here’s another thought, which my drag strip experience in the S60 at various states of tune would seem to support: there may be less ability to ramp up power under some conditions and not others. Even with a variety of mods, the only times I’ve trapped substantially higher than when stock with just a Polestar tune (best time of 13.2 at 105 or 106 with some race gas) has either been launching in 2nd under boost, with (13.1 at 101.x with P* tune, FMIC and dp, no TDI; (2nd heat launch at 13.1 at 105 with those mods plus TDI box, trans slipping) or in really cold air with a greater percentage of race gas, healthy transmission, launching regularly in Sport mode (12.99 at 109). It was also right around freezing temp.

      With both the Polestar tune on its own, and P*+TDI, I’ve seen traps rise significantly with colder ambient temp even during the same session. If it isn’t ice cold out or you aren’t running race gas you might not see a big jump in performance at WOT with the TDI box. It doesn’t necessarily mean your car is broken, it might just need colder air and higher octane for boost and timing to ramp up safely beyond what the regular P* tune is willing to put out safely. If it isn’t cold enough to be chilly out, it might not be cold enough to make more power. Unfortunately you can’t control the weather, or pay for race gas at $15/gal, but...

      I think the answer to the question isn’t to toss the TDI box. I think the answer is to figure out a way to run water/ meth injection so you always have a source of octane and hyper-cooling on demand. I also suspect you need to get another intake as I believe Connor when he said the stock airbox is a choke point, if not on a stock car, then on one with the mods capable of moving substantially more air and fuel.

      It can’t hurt to replace the eCRV with a more robust version. Whether or not that will solve your jerky pulls, it’s good preventative maintenance. It’s also not a bad idea to replace your coils in case they are starting to go.

      As for boost numbers with and without the TDI box, I really wouldn’t take those numbers too literally as filtered through the ECU while it’s being tricked. In any case adding boost isn’t the only thing that makes power. It might be adding timing and fuel while pulling boost at some points. And even if you log a variety of parameters, there’s a chance you are getting bogus “filtered” numbers in those areas, too, as it’s the stock, tricked ECU turning out those numbers so long as its inputs from various sensors are being manipulated through the TDI box.

      Adding to the issue is the transmission meddling with ecu control by stymying power if it doesn’t like higher torque readings. It’s possible there’s more of a restriction on making additional power in the gears that pull more sharply than the upper gears that give you longer pulls. You might not see much of a gain in whatever gears you did your pulls, but that power may be more evident over the course of the entirety of a run, from launch to triple digit speeds. A little bit of gain here, a little bit of gain there. It might not show as big results on a dyno, or a brief low speed pull, but could be enough to get a couple of tenths or a mph or three in the quarter mile.
      Last edited by Bunnspeed; 04-15-2019 at 04:34 PM.
      2011 S60 T6 with Polestar tune+TDI-Tuning : KW V3 coilovers : DO88 fmic : Ferrita downpipe : Powerflex "race" torque mount insert
      12.99 at 109mph

    10. #43
      TL; DR the TDI box may not make substantially more power than just the Polestar tune unless it’s really cold out and you have the kind of octane that lets it really ramp up timing and boost beyond what it might allow in milder air with more conventional octane. I’m speculating to a degree, but based on watching my car respond to adding race fuel and running in a variety of temperatures at the track.
      2011 S60 T6 with Polestar tune+TDI-Tuning : KW V3 coilovers : DO88 fmic : Ferrita downpipe : Powerflex "race" torque mount insert
      12.99 at 109mph

    11. #44
      Junior Member tunedxc60's Avatar
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      Hi there!

      A few thoughts in case you havenít already checked these things out...

      I think you need to separate where the issue is : ignition, boost/air, or fueling? Without focusing a separate section at a time it can be like chasing a ghost.

      When you had the Hilton logging tool was the download indication a pulling of ignition timing in the higher rpms? If you still have the tool do you see any of the same behavior with our without the TDI box? This might point to plugs, coils, or wires that are limiting power at the higher rpms.

      Have you pulled the electrical connector off the turbo control valve and seen if you see any performance gain on mode 1 vs mode 7 on the TDI box? This will isolate the turbo boost from the equation and I believe lock it to a default of 7psi. The signal from the ECU will actually hold the waste gate closed longer - which youíre essentially not letting it do that in the test. You should see repeatable max boost. If itís all over the place you might have a faulty turbo control valve or loose vacuum hose.

      Maybe give these things a shot. It might a little bit of tinkering but nothing serious at all and may reveal a culprit!




      Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
      2018 XC90 T6 Inscription - Polestar tune + Racechip GTS, and Stealth Hitch
      2011 C30 (Ex K-Pax Racing)
      SOLD: 2016 XC60 T6 AWD Platinum/Inscription - Full bolt ons (Snabb air intake & turbo pipe, Do88 Intercooler, Viva Hybrid Turbo, Ferrita downpipe, IPD exhaust catback, H&R Springs), Stage 3 Hilton Tune: Dual JL Audio 10" stealth subs & 750Watt amp

    12. #45
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      Quote Originally Posted by tunedxc60 View Post
      Hi there!

      A few thoughts in case you havenít already checked these things out...

      I think you need to separate where the issue is : ignition, boost/air, or fueling? Without focusing a separate section at a time it can be like chasing a ghost.

      When you had the Hilton logging tool was the download indication a pulling of ignition timing in the higher rpms? If you still have the tool do you see any of the same behavior with our without the TDI box? This might point to plugs, coils, or wires that are limiting power at the higher rpms.

      Have you pulled the electrical connector off the turbo control valve and seen if you see any performance gain on mode 1 vs mode 7 on the TDI box? This will isolate the turbo boost from the equation and I believe lock it to a default of 7psi. The signal from the ECU will actually hold the waste gate closed longer - which youíre essentially not letting it do that in the test. You should see repeatable max boost. If itís all over the place you might have a faulty turbo control valve or loose vacuum hose.

      Maybe give these things a shot. It might a little bit of tinkering but nothing serious at all and may reveal a culprit!




      Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
      Thaks for the input! where can i find the connector?
      Im pretty sure i still have the hilton logger, but i sold my Dice. im currently trying to find a new one.
      2012 S60 T6 (non R), P*, do88 FMIC, k&N drop in, IPD Sway Bar, PowerFlex "RACE" Torque Mount insert, Stop Tech Slotted Rotors, IPD turbo Back exhaust, More to come?.

    13. #46
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      Quote Originally Posted by Bunnspeed View Post
      Hereís another thought, which my drag strip experience in the S60 at various states of tune would seem to support: there may be less ability to ramp up power under some conditions and not others. Even with a variety of mods, the only times Iíve trapped substantially higher than when stock with just a Polestar tune (best time of 13.2 at 105 or 106 with some race gas) has either been launching in 2nd under boost, with (13.1 at 101.x with P* tune, FMIC and dp, no TDI; (2nd heat launch at 13.1 at 105 with those mods plus TDI box, trans slipping) or in really cold air with a greater percentage of race gas, healthy transmission, launching regularly in Sport mode (12.99 at 109). It was also right around freezing temp.

      With both the Polestar tune on its own, and P*+TDI, Iíve seen traps rise significantly with colder ambient temp even during the same session. If it isnít ice cold out or you arenít running race gas you might not see a big jump in performance at WOT with the TDI box. It doesnít necessarily mean your car is broken, it might just need colder air and higher octane for boost and timing to ramp up safely beyond what the regular P* tune is willing to put out safely. If it isnít cold enough to be chilly out, it might not be cold enough to make more power. Unfortunately you canít control the weather, or pay for race gas at $15/gal, but...

      I think the answer to the question isnít to toss the TDI box. I think the answer is to figure out a way to run water/ meth injection so you always have a source of octane and hyper-cooling on demand. I also suspect you need to get another intake as I believe Connor when he said the stock airbox is a choke point, if not on a stock car, then on one with the mods capable of moving substantially more air and fuel.

      It canít hurt to replace the eCRV with a more robust version. Whether or not that will solve your jerky pulls, itís good preventative maintenance. Itís also not a bad idea to replace your coils in case they are starting to go.

      As for boost numbers with and without the TDI box, I really wouldnít take those numbers too literally as filtered through the ECU while itís being tricked. In any case adding boost isnít the only thing that makes power. It might be adding timing and fuel while pulling boost at some points. And even if you log a variety of parameters, thereís a chance you are getting bogus ďfilteredĒ numbers in those areas, too, as itís the stock, tricked ECU turning out those numbers so long as its inputs from various sensors are being manipulated through the TDI box.

      Adding to the issue is the transmission meddling with ecu control by stymying power if it doesnít like higher torque readings. Itís possible thereís more of a restriction on making additional power in the gears that pull more sharply than the upper gears that give you longer pulls. You might not see much of a gain in whatever gears you did your pulls, but that power may be more evident over the course of the entirety of a run, from launch to triple digit speeds. A little bit of gain here, a little bit of gain there. It might not show as big results on a dyno, or a brief low speed pull, but could be enough to get a couple of tenths or a mph or three in the quarter mile.


      You may be correct about the octane. I do plan to put a gallon or 2 of race gas in the Volvo when the tank gets low. If the car responds really well, im going to assume its a timing issue.


      If the car cant build significant gains on 93 octane fuel. In my opinion its not worth me having the TDI box. I might as well work with Hilton to sort things out via a proper tune. Basically, if the car is cant handle the extra boost/timing etc, at normal temps with 93, I dont feel safe running it. Its going to constantly be forcing the engine to protect itself.


      To the note of the ECU figures. I know they are filtered. I specifically WANT the filtered numbers. I want to see if what i have matches what other folks have. We may find that everyone has different numbers, but without a comparison, its hard to say. If 3 folks post that the ECU sees 15 PSI filtered, and im seeing 8, well that points to an issue. At least my theory is that it would show the TDI trying to coax more boost out of the car.


      In terms of the trans meddling, thats only in 1st and 2nd right? All of my comparisons are done in 3rd gear, specifically to try and avoid trans tampering.

      I will say however, and this may be important. The partial throttle pulls in 2nd feel particularly strong, almost stronger than a WOT pull in second.



      My colder plugs arrive today which *should* help prevent detonation and resulting timing pull. I will runn it with those tonight. I will say, the more i learn, and see the TDI box work, the less I like the way it does what it does. having already paid the 1500 for the hilton tune. Im inclined to go that route so that the ECU has a clear picture of whats going on, but thats TBD.
      2012 S60 T6 (non R), P*, do88 FMIC, k&N drop in, IPD Sway Bar, PowerFlex "RACE" Torque Mount insert, Stop Tech Slotted Rotors, IPD turbo Back exhaust, More to come?.

    14. #47
      My understanding of the torque limiting is pretty limited, but to the best of my understanding it’s as follows: The trans limits torque in gears 1&2, probably to a point that’s substantially lower than that of the official threshhold in the upper gears. It doesn’t mean that it doesn’t limit torque at all in the upper gears, it just means that it really softens the engine’s power and tq at launch and in the 1 to 2 upshift. It then allows the car to make the full 300-325hp and whatever tq the T6 car is supposed to make in gears 3-6. Either the TDI box fills in some holes in the stock powerband where it hadn’t met that torque limit “glass ceiling” before, or it exercises a strong enough control over the car that the transmission’s torque limiting functions can’t completely defeat the TDI’s ability to overshoot those numbers.

      I would have imagined that there would be jerkiness in any powerband where a piggyback wrestled with a stock ecu to circumvent a restrictive stock set of parameters, and perhaps that’s what you’re seeing, but I must say, my TDI tune pulls very smoothly and feels extremely healthy, with none of the jerkiness or flat spots I felt doing pulls in my old Saabaru 92x Aero which was extremely sensitive to fuel quality and weather conditions. My Volvo even sounds healthier than it did before the TDI box, with a more substantial “bellow” to its engine note at WOT, quite like how my FSI GTI’s engine note opened up a ton when I added a lot of fuel to the equation with an upgraded APR hpfp. I’m assuming the TDI adds a lot of fuel to keep things safe. My roughly 1mpg-worse fuel economy would seem to support that, as would the healthier, richer tone at WOT.

      On my car, the TDI box feels extremely well integrated with the stock ECU, and they work together seamlessly. I’m very sensitive to any subtle drivability issues that would suggest otherwise. At some point I will get Vida and try to log things, but for a variety of reasons including a baby due in July, that may be a while off.
      2011 S60 T6 with Polestar tune+TDI-Tuning : KW V3 coilovers : DO88 fmic : Ferrita downpipe : Powerflex "race" torque mount insert
      12.99 at 109mph

    15. #48
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      Quote Originally Posted by Bunnspeed View Post
      My understanding of the torque limiting is pretty limited, but to the best of my understanding itís as follows: The trans limits torque in gears 1&2, probably to a point thatís substantially lower than that of the official threshhold in the upper gears. It doesnít mean that it doesnít limit torque at all in the upper gears, it just means that it really softens the engineís power and tq at launch and in the 1 to 2 upshift. It then allows the car to make the full 300-325hp and whatever tq the T6 car is supposed to make in gears 3-6. Either the TDI box fills in some holes in the stock powerband where it hadnít met that torque limit ďglass ceilingĒ before, or it exercises a strong enough control over the car that the transmissionís torque limiting functions canít completely defeat the TDIís ability to overshoot those numbers.

      I would have imagined that there would be jerkiness in any powerband where a piggyback wrestled with a stock ecu to circumvent a restrictive stock set of parameters, and perhaps thatís what youíre seeing, but I must say, my TDI tune pulls very smoothly and feels extremely healthy, with none of the jerkiness or flat spots I felt doing pulls in my old Saabaru 92x Aero which was extremely sensitive to fuel quality and weather conditions. My Volvo even sounds healthier than it did before the TDI box, with a more substantial ďbellowĒ to its engine note at WOT, quite like how my FSI GTIís engine note opened up a ton when I added a lot of fuel to the equation with an upgraded APR hpfp. Iím assuming the TDI adds a lot of fuel to keep things safe. My roughly 1mpg-worse fuel economy would seem to support that, as would the healthier, richer tone at WOT.

      On my car, the TDI box feels extremely well integrated with the stock ECU, and they work together seamlessly. Iím very sensitive to any subtle drivability issues that would suggest otherwise. At some point I will get Vida and try to log things, but for a variety of reasons including a baby due in July, that may be a while off.


      I do think its very smooth. I should also note, the issues at low RPM only happened 2 or 3 times so far. I will note, the car feels to pull better after about 5k. Stock it seems to run out of breath up top. The TDI box doesnt. The car FEELS faster.

      You mentioned Meth in your previous post, but the more ive looked into it the more it seems like a bad idea without a real tune. Methanol will change the AFR. The TDI box only manages boost. It receives signal from the Cam sensor, but AFAIK its only modulating boost. If I were going to run meth, i would 100% let hilton tune for it.

      The TDI cannot affect fueling, because its not integrating with fueling, if the fueling changes its the ECU. ON my GTI, i had a JB4 piggyback system. It connected to the o2, the fueling, the boost, and the timing. It also connected to the OBD port. It could read any of the ECU parameters, and made very measurable difference.
      With the TDI, we are relying on the ECU to make the necessary adjustments to fueling and timing, the TDI box simply doesnt touch these.

      When i installed the TDI, I intercepted the boost sensors on the manifold and Intercooler, and the cam sensor for RPM.


      I Do notice a change in tone, which i also noticed with the Hilton tune i had.
      2012 S60 T6 (non R), P*, do88 FMIC, k&N drop in, IPD Sway Bar, PowerFlex "RACE" Torque Mount insert, Stop Tech Slotted Rotors, IPD turbo Back exhaust, More to come?.

    16. #49
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      The horsepower-limiting factor in most turbo passenger car engines is knock. The "tuners" can increase boost, but there is generally precious-little headroom before knock comes knocking, and the ECU pulls timing and/or reduces boost. If there is any surging or unsteadiness in torque, it might be the ECU temporarily reducing boost or timing to get control of knock, and then trying to return to the desired settings.

      The factory engineers assume you are not using the best possible gas, and set the boost levels accordingly. Tuners take advantage of that. That's why Polestar reccommends or requires premium fuel, and tuners like APR can offer "race gas only" calibrations.

      The factory engineers are motivated to specify the highest possible compression ratio because that helps greatly with fuel economy and off-boost response. The downside is that you cannot apply a lot of boost before knock sets in.

      It sounds like the TDI box simply under-reports boost to the ECU, and the ECU responds by increasing the command to the boost contol solenoid. This is clever and simple, but the tuners only have one knob to turn (boost). They can't re-map spark timing or air/fuel ratio, and thus have fewer weapons in the war against knock.

      Larger turbos can help the high-end horsepower because they are more efficient up there, resulting in lower intake manifold temperatures and backpressure (less knock!).

    17. #50
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      Quote Originally Posted by Dyno View Post
      The horsepower-limiting factor in most turbo passenger car engines is knock. The "tuners" can increase boost, but there is generally precious-little headroom before knock comes knocking, and the ECU pulls timing and/or reduces boost. If there is any surging or unsteadiness in torque, it might be the ECU temporarily reducing boost or timing to get control of knock, and then trying to return to the desired settings.

      The factory engineers assume you are not using the best possible gas, and set the boost levels accordingly. Tuners take advantage of that. That's why Polestar reccommends or requires premium fuel, and tuners like APR can offer "race gas only" calibrations.

      The factory engineers are motivated to specify the highest possible compression ratio because that helps greatly with fuel economy and off-boost response. The downside is that you cannot apply a lot of boost before knock sets in.

      It sounds like the TDI box simply under-reports boost to the ECU, and the ECU responds by increasing the command to the boost contol solenoid. This is clever and simple, but the tuners only have one knob to turn (boost). They can't re-map spark timing or air/fuel ratio, and thus have fewer weapons in the war against knock.

      Larger turbos can help the high-end horsepower because they are more efficient up there, resulting in lower intake manifold temperatures and backpressure (less knock!).
      Thats why ive decided to sell the TDI box. I own the hilton tune, so for the price of a DIce, and troubleshooting, i can run a proper tune that CAN account for timing, fueling etc. I was hoping the TDI box would give me what i wante, so i wouldnt have to bother with re-tuning the car, but it seems like its not.
      2012 S60 T6 (non R), P*, do88 FMIC, k&N drop in, IPD Sway Bar, PowerFlex "RACE" Torque Mount insert, Stop Tech Slotted Rotors, IPD turbo Back exhaust, More to come?.

    18. #51
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      Quote Originally Posted by 300+_T5R_855 View Post
      A good set of tires and driving lessons.
      Yes, performance driving lessons. You might be surprised what the car can do with the right skill set.

    19. #52
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      Quote Originally Posted by chrisz View Post
      Yes, performance driving lessons. You might be surprised what the car can do with the right skill set.
      Autocross school on the 27th I fully recognize I can be a much better driver. I also have some track time with an instructor in May
      2012 S60 T6 (non R), P*, do88 FMIC, k&N drop in, IPD Sway Bar, PowerFlex "RACE" Torque Mount insert, Stop Tech Slotted Rotors, IPD turbo Back exhaust, More to come?.

    20. #53
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      I talked to Hilton, and im going to go forward with having him re tune the car. I just need to order the DIce, ive gone ahead and posted the TDI in the Classifieds.
      2012 S60 T6 (non R), P*, do88 FMIC, k&N drop in, IPD Sway Bar, PowerFlex "RACE" Torque Mount insert, Stop Tech Slotted Rotors, IPD turbo Back exhaust, More to come?.

    21. #54
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      Quote Originally Posted by 04lss View Post
      Autocross school on the 27th I fully recognize I can be a much better driver. I also have some track time with an instructor in May
      Excellent, this is good to hear (read)!

    22. #55
      Quote Originally Posted by 04lss View Post
      I talked to Hilton, and im going to go forward with having him re tune the car. I just need to order the DIce, ive gone ahead and posted the TDI in the Classifieds.
      Sorry to hear you are moving on from the TDI but I hope Hilton gives you better results this time. I’ll be curious to hear if it’s a big improvement over TDI. While their isn’t much info available about the Hilton tune, they supposedly offer a few interesting advantages over the TDI box. Don’t forget, Hilton recommends an upgraded CRV with their tune. You may not get the results you hope for without that.
      2011 S60 T6 with Polestar tune+TDI-Tuning : KW V3 coilovers : DO88 fmic : Ferrita downpipe : Powerflex "race" torque mount insert
      12.99 at 109mph

    23. #56
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      Quote Originally Posted by Bunnspeed View Post
      Sorry to hear you are moving on from the TDI but I hope Hilton gives you better results this time. Iíll be curious to hear if itís a big improvement over TDI. While their isnít much info available about the Hilton tune, they supposedly offer a few interesting advantages over the TDI box. Donít forget, Hilton recommends an upgraded CRV with their tune. You may not get the results you hope for without that.
      The plan is to take the cash from the TDI box and use it to get a new eCRV and DICE.
      2012 S60 T6 (non R), P*, do88 FMIC, k&N drop in, IPD Sway Bar, PowerFlex "RACE" Torque Mount insert, Stop Tech Slotted Rotors, IPD turbo Back exhaust, More to come?.

    24. #57
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      Quote Originally Posted by 04lss View Post
      ...
      You mentioned Meth in your previous post, but the more ive looked into it the more it seems like a bad idea without a real tune. Methanol will change the AFR. The TDI box only manages boost. It receives signal from the Cam sensor, but AFAIK its only modulating boost. If I were going to run meth, i would 100% let hilton tune for it.
      It's been a long while boys. I see some of you are still playing nice.

      Run the meth! If you're overly concerned, run meth/water as opposed to straight meth. Still concerned? Run washer fluid in place of meth. Just make sure you size the nozzles properly.

      Last edited by Sir Harmony; 05-14-2019 at 07:46 PM. Reason: pic not populating
      I dislike wagons, and don't particularly care for Volvo's in general. I'm not a fan of any one brand.

      Currently trying to pilot the fastest P3 S60.

    25. #58
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      So, why would I want to run washer fluid through my engine?

    26. #59
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      Quote Originally Posted by Dyno View Post
      So, why would I want to run washer fluid through my engine?
      To reduce intake temps and avoid knock under high boost. Water injection has been used successfully since at least the 1940s.

      https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wate...ction_(engine)

      Obviously it's not running all the time, just during full throttle moments.
      I'm not good, I'm not nice, I'm just right.
      2012 S60 T6 R-Design | 1998 S70 T5 SE | 1986 944 Turbo

    27. #60
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      Quote Originally Posted by zenmervolt View Post
      To reduce intake temps and avoid knock under high boost. Water injection has been used successfully since at least the 1940s.

      https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wate...ction_(engine)

      Obviously it's not running all the time, just during full throttle moments.
      And if knock is not present?

      Water (and by extension, washer fluid) has no "heating value". It does not add any BTUs to the combustion process.

    28. #61
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      Quote Originally Posted by Dyno View Post
      Quote Originally Posted by zenmervolt View Post
      To reduce intake temps and avoid knock under high boost. Water injection has been used successfully since at least the 1940s.

      https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wate...ction_(engine)

      Obviously it's not running all the time, just during full throttle moments.
      And if knock is not present?

      Water (and by extension, washer fluid) has no "heating value". It does not add any BTUs to the combustion process.
      Considering that the sole purpose of water injection is to reduce charge temperature without having to inject massive amounts of fuel that won't get burned, I'd say it's a positive thing that it doesn't add any BTUs to the combustion process.

      It was used in piston engine fighter aircraft for takeoff power and for emergency power in dogfights. It fell out of favor as charge coolers (intercoolers) became more prominent but it's still viable as a way to handle transient high power situations that would otherwise cause knock.
      Last edited by zenmervolt; 05-14-2019 at 09:01 AM.
      I'm not good, I'm not nice, I'm just right.
      2012 S60 T6 R-Design | 1998 S70 T5 SE | 1986 944 Turbo

    29. #62
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      On my srt4 I donít have any knock but at wide open throttle it kicks in, Ive used washer fluid for 10 plus years and no issues. I even did a dyno with out it and with it and with meth injection it added 31hp to the wheels at high boost.

    30. #63
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      Quote Originally Posted by limey View Post
      On my srt4 I donít have any knock but at wide open throttle it kicks in, Ive used washer fluid for 10 plus years and no issues. I even did a dyno with out it and with it and with meth injection it added 31hp to the wheels at high boost.
      The +31hp was with methanol and water?

    31. #64
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      Quote Originally Posted by Dyno View Post
      The +31hp was with methanol and water?
      That dyno pull was done with a 70/30 mix of meth/water. Itís extra protection and more hp. Win win lol

    32. #65
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      Quote Originally Posted by Dyno View Post
      Quote Originally Posted by limey View Post
      On my srt4 I don’t have any knock but at wide open throttle it kicks in, Ive used washer fluid for 10 plus years and no issues. I even did a dyno with out it and with it and with meth injection it added 31hp to the wheels at high boost.
      The +31hp was with methanol and water?
      Without the methanol and water injection you either have to run pig rich (bad for power), pull timing (bad for power), pull boost (bad for power), or some combination of any or all of the above (bad for power).

      That's why water and methanol injection boosts power. It's essentially the same reason that any charge cooling helps power. It's also not something that's running all the time. Typically it only activates at WOT so a small amount of water / methanol can last quite a while.
      I'm not good, I'm not nice, I'm just right.
      2012 S60 T6 R-Design | 1998 S70 T5 SE | 1986 944 Turbo

    33. #66
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      All true and I understand all of that. Meth injection can be considered a "power adder", like a nitrous system. Methanol is a FUEL, which adds BTUs to combustion process and has the additional benefit of having high latent heat of vaporization, which can cool the intake charge.

      I just don't understand how squirting washer fluid into my stock, non-knocking engine will do anything but add risk of oil dilution and contamination.

    34. #67
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      Quote Originally Posted by Dyno View Post
      I just don't understand how squirting washer fluid into my stock, non-knocking engine will do anything but add risk of oil dilution and contamination.
      I'm not sure that I can explain the concept of charge cooling any differently than I already have.

      Water injection is charge cooling. It increases power the same way that an intercooler does. By reducing the temperature of the intake charge. It also reduces emissions and increases fuel economy (by 5-10%) compared to WOT enrichment since WOT enrichment cools the intake charge by adding excess fuel that doesn't get burned.

      The Wikipedia article I linked earlier does a reasonable job of explaining the basic concepts of water injection.

      EDIT: Just noticed that you're talking about using this on an otherwise stock engine. In that case it would indeed be entirely superfluous as long as the engine isn't heat soaking. I would expect that after a couple of runs water injection would help even a stock engine avoid heat soak in the same way that the larger Do88 intercooler does. It won't necessarily lead to more power, but I would expect it to help maintain that power longer, especially on hot days
      Last edited by zenmervolt; 05-14-2019 at 10:27 AM.
      I'm not good, I'm not nice, I'm just right.
      2012 S60 T6 R-Design | 1998 S70 T5 SE | 1986 944 Turbo

    35. #68
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      Quote Originally Posted by Dyno View Post
      I just don't understand how squirting washer fluid into my stock, non-knocking engine will do anything but add risk of oil dilution and contamination.
      Here's a great video that explains the mechanism for the improvement (using water injection on the BMW M4 GTS as an example), its worth noting that this is only really relevant to WOT on an engine that's being limited by intake temps, this is less likely to be an issue on a stock engine as opposed to an already tuned engine but if you're driving it really hard it could still have benefits to the charge temperature.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PhShcJZ3JAk

      Side note: His Youtube channel is awesome if you like nerding out on the details of car tech.
      Last edited by PostmanPat; 05-14-2019 at 11:51 AM. Reason: Added quote for context

    36. #69
      A few points to add:

      Wmi effectively adds octane as well as cooling benefits, further improving the ability to ramp up timing advance and boost without running into knock. So even a stock ecu with a degree of adaptability built into the tune can theoretically make power not just during repeated pulls where power might otherwise taper off due to heat soak, but also during warm (or non cold) weather, as these 3.0T cars (even stock ones with just a Polestar tune) make more power in cold air. Any day can be like a winter day if you can reduce your IATs significantly.

      And these ECUs (at least Polestar tunes and TDI Tuning-enhanced ones) do seem to make power or at least accelerate faster with a bit of race gas added, due to their adaptability and ability to adapt to the higher octane. Running wmi in the proper amount can give the benefits of race gas on demand at WOT. Theoretically you could probably save money and run 87 octane perfectly safely with wmi adding the needed octane on demand under boost.

      Wmi also has cleansing benefits. It can theoretically be hard on sensors and throttle bodies but people have found it to keep valves much cleaner on some platforms known for carbon buildup such as the DI VW 2.0T cars. I wonder if this might reduce sludge buildup in our PCV setup? That might be a stretch, but others might know.

      Ideally you’d want to tune a car to run optimally with a given wmi kit, and more tuner-friendly cars have that option, of writing tunes and setting up meth kits to work together, but in this case we are very limited with our tuning options, and you’d probably have to tune the meth kit to work with available tunes in whatever way you can. I suppose Hilton might be able to tweak a tune with lots of logging and back n forths and implementing modified maps through email, but that would take a huge amount of legwork. On the other hand I could see something more DIY-friendly like a “wmi lite” setup working well on cars with some tuning, or at least the P* tune, where you supplement the available tune with as much wmi as it can handle without running into drivability issues or losing power. Without copying someone else’s setup exactly, it would take some trial and error to dial in the ratio of methanol to water, the size, quantity and placement of nozzles, pump pressure, what boost pressure/ throttle position or other method you’d choose to activate the wmi injection, etc. There are so many variables involved that it’s rather daunting to actually initiate the process of setting up wmi. At the very least you’d need to do lots of logging and look closely especially at timing advance/ retard and how timing responds to adding meth under boost, whether adding meth adds timing (good for power) or creates misfires past a point, or retards timing, indicating that the car isn’t happy with what you’re doing. Beyond merely running safely, you’d do well to dial it in with repeated dyno pulls to confirm that little changes in fact make power. Do it wrong and you’ll likely lose power. Do it right and I’d expect at least a mild bump in power and slightly quicker times at the drag strip or circuit.
      Last edited by Bunnspeed; 05-14-2019 at 06:56 PM.
      2011 S60 T6 with Polestar tune+TDI-Tuning : KW V3 coilovers : DO88 fmic : Ferrita downpipe : Powerflex "race" torque mount insert
      12.99 at 109mph

    37. #70
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      Quote Originally Posted by Dyno View Post
      So, why would I want to run washer fluid through my engine?
      My suggestion was directed at 04lss because of his mods. If you're asking a hypothetical question, then others have answered your question thoroughly.

      Quote Originally Posted by Dyno View Post
      I just don't understand how squirting washer fluid into my stock, non-knocking engine will do anything but add risk of oil dilution and contamination.
      I think your confusion lies in 'washer fluid', so let me explain. Blue washer fluids contain a percentage of methanol (from 20% to 40%, brand dependent. It used to be up to 50%, but companies cut back). Using washer fluid saves you the trouble of premixing a ratio of methanol : water. All you have to do is look at the data sheet for the particular washer fluid to find the methanol ratio.
      I dislike wagons, and don't particularly care for Volvo's in general. I'm not a fan of any one brand.

      Currently trying to pilot the fastest P3 S60.

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