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    1. #36
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      Quote Originally Posted by P50GT View Post
      You mean you don't want an EV. There are as many people waiting in line for a Tesla Model 3 as total cars Volvo sold in all of 2016. There were 150k orders in the first hour it was released. The is no lack of demand for quality EV's.
      It depends a lot on the price point, and the tradeoffs between driving range, price and how much cargo space you lose to batteries.
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    3. #37
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      Quote Originally Posted by ericy View Post
      It depends a lot on the price point, and the tradeoffs between driving range, price and how much cargo space you lose to batteries.
      I agree with you on all points except the last. You don't lose cargo space on an EV, you gain it. Electric Motors are much smaller than ICE's and the batteries can fit in between the chassis when an EV is designed from the ground up. The Model S has as much cargo room as the Chevy Tahoe. There is no Sedan that can come even close to matching its cargo space. Now hybrids on the other hand are awful at cargo space. They are designed as an ICE, have to accommodate both an ICE as well as an EV drivetrain and in Volvo's case a 2nd ICE.
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    4. #38
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      Are we pretending that Tesla's actually going to sell a car for each of those pre-orders?
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    6. #39
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      Quote Originally Posted by matt1122 View Post
      Are we pretending that Tesla's actually going to sell a car for each of those pre-orders?
      Even if a crazy high number like 50% drop out it's still over 200k orders. It still proves the point that there is plenty of demand for a well made EV. Volvo only managed to sell ~60k S60's of all configs last year Worldwide.
      Last edited by P50GT; 07-05-2017 at 08:35 PM.
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    7. #40
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      Quote Originally Posted by P50GT View Post
      Even if a crazy high number like 50% drop out it's still over 200k orders. It still proves the point that there is plenty of demand for a well made EV. Volvo only managed to sell ~60k S60's of all configs last year Worldwide.
      If the government incentive on EV's didn't exist the amount of Tesla sales would plummet. Tesla banks on this $7500 welfare program for the rich and prices all their models in the categories with this. If this stipend didn't exist they'd get a lot less business.

      I understand this isn't Tesla's fault - But you can't fairly judge Tesla sales against standard ICE cars knowing that the $7500 off exists.
      Last edited by mchart; 07-05-2017 at 09:27 PM.

    8. #41
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      Quote Originally Posted by mchart View Post
      If the government incentive on EV's didn't exist the amount of Tesla sales would plummet.
      Try again. The majority of people who signed up for Model 3 will not get the $7500 rebate. The rebate starts phasing out after an Automaker hits 200k total sales. Tells will hit this after about 80-100k Model 3 sales. This is also solely a US thing and Tesla sales are spread around the world.
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    9. #42
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      Quote Originally Posted by P50GT View Post
      Try again. The majority of people who signed up for Model 3 will not get the $7500 rebate. The rebate starts phasing out after an Automaker hits 200k total sales. Tells will hit this after about 80-100k Model 3 sales. This is also solely a US thing and Tesla sales are spread around the world.
      And I bet you the majority don't realize this yet until the car is delivered and they find out the bad news.

    10. #43
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      Quote Originally Posted by mchart View Post
      And I bet you the majority don't realize this yet until the car is delivered and they find out the bad news.
      It was made very clear during the Reservation process. Education does a wonder.
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    11. #44
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      Quote Originally Posted by P50GT View Post
      It was made very clear during the Reservation process. Education does a wonder.
      The official language on their website says otherwise - They are purposely keeping the language vague.

    12. #45
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      Quote Originally Posted by mchart View Post
      The official language on their website says otherwise - They are purposely keeping the language vague.
      I don't know what you want them to say beyond this...

      "Incentive programs are offered and administered by government agencies. Eligibility and availability vary and are outside of Tesla’s control. Most programs are limited to a total dollar amount that can be dispersed or will expire on a certain date. Be sure to visit the state program’s website for the most up-to-date information on availability and redemption requirements.

      Your eligibility for income tax credits depends on your personal tax situation. We recommend speaking with a tax professional for guidance."

      When it comes to any type of rebate it is on you to know what you are eligible for. Tesla lists the price of the car without any rebate unlike other companies.
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    13. #46
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      Quote Originally Posted by P50GT View Post
      I don't know what you want them to say beyond this...

      "Incentive programs are offered and administered by government agencies. Eligibility and availability vary and are outside of Tesla’s control. Most programs are limited to a total dollar amount that can be dispersed or will expire on a certain date. Be sure to visit the state program’s website for the most up-to-date information on availability and redemption requirements.

      Your eligibility for income tax credits depends on your personal tax situation. We recommend speaking with a tax professional for guidance."

      When it comes to any type of rebate it is on you to know what you are eligible for. Tesla lists the price of the car without any rebate unlike other companies.
      lol. No they don't. Click on any new car and go to the build screen. The headliner price is after both federal AND gas savings.

    14. #47
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      Quote Originally Posted by mchart View Post
      lol. No they don't. Click on any new car and go to the build screen. The headliner price is after both federal AND gas savings.
      Model 3 page is not set up the same as Model S/X. I just has $35,000 and says Incentives available. The incentives page has a link to here, which clearly shows you when every automaker will lose the credit, http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/taxevb.shtml.

      That Savings price nonsense nauseates me. I tried to get rid of it the entire time I was there with no success. You're getting completely off track though. This has nothing to do with Tesla. This is about EV's in general. Model 3 is just one example that there is a market for them if companies actually make what people want.
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    15. #48
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      Quote Originally Posted by P50GT View Post
      Model 3 page is not set up the same as Model S/X. I just has $35,000 and says Incentives available. The incentives page has a link to here, which clearly shows you when every automaker will lose the credit, http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/taxevb.shtml.

      That Savings price nonsense nauseates me. I tried to get rid of it the entire time I was there with no success. You're getting completely off track though. This has nothing to do with Tesla. This is about EV's in general. Model 3 is just one example that there is a market for them if companies actually make what people want.
      And my argument is that the market really is only as large as it is currently due to the welfare program. As soon as that ends it completely changes things.

    16. #49
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      Quote Originally Posted by mchart View Post
      And my argument is that the market really is only as large as it is currently due to the welfare program. As soon as that ends it completely changes things.
      So do you call all the subsidies given to the oil industry "welfare"? Do you call all the money we spend on our military to prop up the oil industry "welfare"? Or is it just programs that help bring about new emerging technologies that you like to throw that big W word at?
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    17. #50
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      Quote Originally Posted by P50GT View Post
      Even if a crazy high number like 50% drop out it's still over 200k orders. It still proves the point that there is plenty of demand for a well made EV. Volvo only managed to sell ~60k S60's of all configs last year Worldwide.
      True but its an old model and flawed design. No offence to anyone who has an S60 (I do too) but it was designed on a shoe string budget and has never really appealed in the sector its in.

      How many 3 Series did BMW shift last year? Or Audi A4's or Merc C Class. The sector still does good numbers for the right brand/model.

      If the new S60 is right it has the chance to sell in good numbers. They will aim to get a jump on the competition with the EV angle so everything from the 3cyl 1.5 with Hybrid to the T8 range has a potential if done and priced right, but they must get the electric range to be significantly increased.

    18. #51
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      Quote Originally Posted by mchart View Post
      And I bet you the majority don't realize this yet until the car is delivered and they find out the bad news.
      They do sell them outside the US, so not all buyers are relying on this. A good percentage of orders will be for foreign sales, I know people in the middle east with 3 on order, no doubt trying to sell an early one for a profit and probably keep the second for a while.

      Out of the first 200k cars built event if 15% go abroad then it gives people further down the list a chance to benefit from the government money.

    19. #52
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      Quote Originally Posted by mchart View Post
      And my argument is that the market really is only as large as it is currently due to the welfare program. As soon as that ends it completely changes things.
      Sure there are differences but in my country the sales numbers of certain types of cars are solely a result of this. Has been for years. Creates brand hoppers btw.
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    20. #53
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      He's not wrong. There is demand for electric vehicles. I drive past the Short Hills Mall daily, and that's where our local Tesla "dealer" is. I see a test driver almost daily.

      I'm not sure why, but there was a white Model 3 (prototype maybe?) around yesterday. Other people have spotted a few as well it seems. Ugly ****ing car.
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    21. #54
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      Quote Originally Posted by matt1122 View Post
      He's not wrong. There is demand for electric vehicles. I drive past the Short Hills Mall daily, and that's where our local Tesla "dealer" is. I see a test driver almost daily.

      I'm not sure why, but there was a white Model 3 (prototype maybe?) around yesterday. Other people have spotted a few as well it seems. Ugly ****ing car.
      They are called Release Candidates that you are seeing. Basically pre-production cars built on production tooling. The first production cars will be delivered tomorrow. While it is not as attractive a Model S, I have been seeing them more and more and I wouldn't call them ugly.

      I caught 3 of them out a couple of weeks ago...
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    22. #55
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      They remind me of an overstyled Toyota that's trying too hard to look futuristic.

      An all-electric S60 would be a serious competitor for the Model 3 if it launches next year as MY18 and maintains the difference between Volvo and Tesla's build quality, interior design, and exterior design.

      I can't imagine what the all-electric 3-series launching later this year (allegedly) will do to those reservations.
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    23. #56
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      Quote Originally Posted by matt1122 View Post
      They remind me of an overstyled Toyota that's trying too hard to look futuristic.

      An all-electric S60 would be a serious competitor for the Model 3 if it launches next year as MY18 and maintains the difference between Volvo and Tesla's build quality, interior design, and exterior design.

      I can't imagine what the all-electric 3-series launching later this year (allegedly) will do to those reservations.
      An EV S60 is not launching next year. Volvo is not launching an EV until 2019, when Model 3 will have been on the road for 2 years already. What Volvo lacks and Tesla has more of than just about any car company is Brand Cache. Whether warranted or not, it doesn't matter. People desire a Tesla, people don't desire a Volvo. Brand loyalty is also a strong suit for Tesla who ranked #1 again while Volvo is #20, http://www.consumerreports.org/car-r...-satisfaction/.

      Here's the reality of the situation. The market is huge and Tesla is currently occupying less than 1% of it. There is plenty of room for everyone to increase their Sales without affecting each other. The key is back to the original point I made. Making cars that people actually want to buy. If they can accomplish that, it doesn't matter what anyone else is doing.
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    24. #57
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      Sorry to be pedantic, but it's "cachet". Cache is a stockpile of something or a place to hold processes in memory on a computer.

    25. #58
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      Quote Originally Posted by Chris from Cali View Post
      Sorry to be pedantic, but it's "cachet". Cache is a stockpile of something or a place to hold processes in memory on a computer.
      Haha, yes I'm aware. It was a typo.
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    26. #59
      OP thread bomb allowed 👀😉👍
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    27. #60
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      Autocar has now released the first picture of a P* car and it looks like an AMG GT...
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    29. #62
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      I have seen no statement that suggests that is an actual image of the car and not just an artist's rendering of what it might look like.

      The article is based almost exclusively on rumor and speculation. Never trust anything from autocar.
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    30. #63
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      Quote Originally Posted by matt1122 View Post
      I have seen no statement that suggests that is an actual image of the car and not just an artist's rendering of what it might look like.

      The article is based almost exclusively on rumor and speculation. Never trust anything from autocar.
      We have internal people telling us that this is what they've been shown.
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    31. #64
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      The 220V outlet in my garage will be waiting lol

    32. #65
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      Looks pretty cool, even if its only a rendering.

      Unfortunately EV has a long way to go in Australia. We don't have the infrastructure the support it. Maybe when Elon gets our big battery up and running we can start being truly green.

      Now i have to get a really long power extension cord...
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    33. #66
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      I also like the rendering but agree it is too similar to a Mercedes GTS or SLS. Maybe they'll tweek the design as it moves more towards production.

    34. #67
      Subscribing. Not much to say at this point other than the fact that Volvo has a lot of work to do, or Polestar, or whomever, to be able to compete directly with Tesla. My inlaws have a Model S 70D, which is one of the lower performance variants of the Model S, but spending a few hours in it and driving it for about an hour was a revelation. It was a wonderful driver and so brilliant in nearly every way that its actual speed potential was almost a non-issue for me. It was so pleasant, so serene, so comfortable and smooth and quiet. All the technology integrates incredibly well with itself and with you the driver such that the vehicle feels like an extension of your will after about 30 minutes of driving it. It made everything else I've driven feel crude and decidedly lo fi by comparison. I can barely imagine what the top of the line variants with actual Hellcat-esque power would be like to drive. Like I said, Volvo and Polestar have a lot of work to do to get on that level. I'm not saying it can't be done, but it certainly won't happen overnight.
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    36. #69
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      Hi, Is there now going to be a separate Polestar Cars stand at motor shows (for example Geneva, where Volvo typically always has a strong presence and releases new models) or will a Polestar model or two be alongside the Volvos at the Volvo stand?
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      Quote Originally Posted by Alex960 View Post
      Hi, Is there now going to be a separate Polestar Cars stand at motor shows (for example Geneva, where Volvo typically always has a strong presence and releases new models) or will a Polestar model or two be alongside the Volvos at the Volvo stand?
      Oct 17 announcement of Polestar cars coincide with Shanghai Auto Show 2017. Will see if they are in the show or a separate event.

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