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    1. #71
      Member volvobuff's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by stepwilk View Post
      At which university do they call it a "master thesis"?
      I believe that is the same institution that offers a "doctor dissertation". Perhaps it is a medical school...
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    3. #72
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      I think it's fair to say most of the electronic components in Volvo cars was already made in china or sourced from Chinese parts. That's not that much different that the way Apple makes in China using its' supplier network.

      I do have concerns with the way Volvo is going about it. Apple has publicly available third party audits of the supply chain. Volvo has hundreds of direct suppliers and thousands of indirect suppliers. It has a series of self and Volvo done audits. As far as I can tell Volvo cars does not publish the results of the audits like Apple does. Before considering a Chinese made Volvo I want to see something published and validated by a third party indicating:

      1) Ensure testing has been done to ensure no cat and dog hides. And before people cry racism I will remind you the problem has become so widespread that the US Customs has just recently been forced to randomly do DNA testing on Chinese leather imports.

      2) Ensure waste is properly handled. Paints are tested regularly for lead which is somehow still a thing in China.

      3) Worker and human rights adhere to international standards.

      In terms of actual quality, the worst car I've purchased in terms of fit and finish was the Alabama made Acura MDX. Not nearly as well made as the prior generation that was assembled in Canada. Biggest red flag for me is when a car factory opens up in the Deep South.

    4. #73
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      when a car factory opens up in the Deep South.
      Which now includes Volvo.

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    6. #74
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      I've read about a lot of quality problems with the XC 90, which is built on the same platform as the S90, so those same problems could occur, regardless of where it's built.

    7. #75
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      Well I can tell you my 2018 S90 T5 which was made in China has been the least reliable vehicle I have ever owned in over 50 years of driving. Maybe it’s just a bad one-off or overall poor design - but it has been in the dealership for at least 6 different issues in 2 years -most small - but going back Fri for 3rd time to try and resolve a serious torque converter/hard shifting issue. If it happens again it becomes a Lemon Law candidate. Either way, based on my experience so far I likely won’t buy another Volvo period. As an example, had to replace front brake pads at 2 year service and less than 18k miles! My wife’s 10 year old Camry has 80k miles and pads are STILL good. Also terrible, loud Perrilli tires.

    8. #76
      Quote Originally Posted by OilMan View Post
      Well I can tell you my 2018 S90 T5 which was made in China has been the least reliable vehicle I have ever owned in over 50 years of driving. Maybe it’s just a bad one-off or overall poor design - but it has been in the dealership for at least 6 different issues in 2 years -most small - but going back Fri for 3rd time to try and resolve a serious torque converter/hard shifting issue. If it happens again it becomes a Lemon Law candidate. Either way, based on my experience so far I likely won’t buy another Volvo period. As an example, had to replace front brake pads at 2 year service and less than 18k miles! My wife’s 10 year old Camry has 80k miles and pads are STILL good. Also terrible, loud Perrilli tires.
      I think the brake pad issue is a common one, where Volvo has often done it under warranty.

    9. #77
      Member matt1122's Avatar
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      Sorry to hear about your experience, OilMan, but that likely isn't related to the assembly point. Hard shifting (and "torque-converter" issues) would be the result of a bad transmission unit.

      What have they done so far, just software updates?

      As far as your brake pads go, if the fronts had to be replaced that early and you're not driving like speed racer there was probably a warranty claim to be had. That would more likely be due to an assembly issue than the transmission problems.

      Edit: Saw your post in another thread. They only did two software updates so far and the issue isn't recurring quickly enough that there are no new software updates to try before digging in deeper. That's unfortunate. Does a software update actually count as a repair towards lemon law? Either way, was also thinking if they dropped the transmission in the assembly factory or something that could be an assembly issue. =X
      Last edited by matt1122; 10-08-2019 at 11:49 AM.
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    10. #78
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      Quote Originally Posted by OilMan View Post
      Well I can tell you my 2018 S90 T5 which was made in China has been the least reliable vehicle I have ever owned in over 50 years of driving. Maybe it’s just a bad one-off or overall poor design - but it has been in the dealership for at least 6 different issues in 2 years -most small - but going back Fri for 3rd time to try and resolve a serious torque converter/hard shifting issue. If it happens again it becomes a Lemon Law candidate. Either way, based on my experience so far I likely won’t buy another Volvo period. As an example, had to replace front brake pads at 2 year service and less than 18k miles! My wife’s 10 year old Camry has 80k miles and pads are STILL good. Also terrible, loud Perrilli tires.
      The transmissions are assembled and sourced from Japan.

    11. #79
      Junior Member mattlach's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by mot_xc90 View Post
      I think it's fair to say most of the electronic components in Volvo cars was already made in china or sourced from Chinese parts. That's not that much different that the way Apple makes in China using its' supplier network.

      I do have concerns with the way Volvo is going about it. Apple has publicly available third party audits of the supply chain. Volvo has hundreds of direct suppliers and thousands of indirect suppliers. It has a series of self and Volvo done audits. As far as I can tell Volvo cars does not publish the results of the audits like Apple does. Before considering a Chinese made Volvo I want to see something published and validated by a third party indicating:

      1) Ensure testing has been done to ensure no cat and dog hides. And before people cry racism I will remind you the problem has become so widespread that the US Customs has just recently been forced to randomly do DNA testing on Chinese leather imports.

      2) Ensure waste is properly handled. Paints are tested regularly for lead which is somehow still a thing in China.

      3) Worker and human rights adhere to international standards.

      In terms of actual quality, the worst car I've purchased in terms of fit and finish was the Alabama made Acura MDX. Not nearly as well made as the prior generation that was assembled in Canada. Biggest red flag for me is when a car factory opens up in the Deep South.
      I'd want to make sure the vehicles pass a full privacy/security audit and have ongoing screening as well. There is so much software, so many sensors, cameras and microphones, these things are a Chinese military intelligence officers wet dream.

      I have nothing against the Chinese per se, but I do have huge issues with any authoritarian regime. You can't trust anything from a country ruled by a government which is not of, by and for their own people.

    12. #80
      Member volvobuff's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by mattlach View Post
      I'd want to make sure the vehicles pass a full privacy/security audit and have ongoing screening as well. There is so much software, so many sensors, cameras and microphones, these things are a Chinese military intelligence officers wet dream.

      I have nothing against the Chinese per se, but I do have huge issues with any authoritarian regime. You can't trust anything from a country ruled by a government which is not of, by and for their own people.
      Mmm. Any plans on moving elsewhere?
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    13. #81
      Quote Originally Posted by mattlach View Post
      I'd want to make sure the vehicles pass a full privacy/security audit and have ongoing screening as well. There is so much software, so many sensors, cameras and microphones, these things are a Chinese military intelligence officers wet dream.

      I have nothing against the Chinese per se, but I do have huge issues with any authoritarian regime. You can't trust anything from a country ruled by a government which is not of, by and for their own people.
      Since 2001, and the Patriot Act / NSA snooping on everyone's life, I think you have a lot of misplaced trust in our own government. You do realize that the CIA devised ways to turn your smart TV into a microphone and NSA discovered methods to use Cell Phones as a listening device. Plus, the NSA routinely left exploits in Cisco Routers to allow for back dooring them.. And this was being done in a wholesale manner.

      CIA: https://www.forbes.com/sites/thomasb.../#77622aee4bcd

      NSA: https://money.cnn.com/2014/06/06/tec...turn-on-phone/

      NSA Back doors Cisco Routers: https://www.infoworld.com/article/26...-products.html

    14. #82
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      Not to encourage this lightly off-topic paranoia, but your own government spying on you is not a national security issue.
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    15. #83
      Quote Originally Posted by matt1122 View Post
      Not to encourage this lightly off-topic paranoia, but your own government spying on you is not a national security issue.
      Sure it is, because the Government was involved in espionage and the spying of other governments. It intentionally had Cisco sell routers with a known exploit so it could monitor various entities.

      I consider the government utilizing tools that go against our fundamental rights to be a breach of trust and illegal. No paranoia. All this has been substantiated.

      But long story short, I doubt the car made in China is any less Flawed (software wise) than cars made here. Quality might be another issue. It's very possible for China to output solid products if the production line is closely monitored. But it's yet to be seen how China's hand in Volvo will affect the brand.
      Last edited by MyVolvoS60; 10-09-2019 at 02:08 PM.

    16. #84
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      Thanks for your input. I contacted Volvo customer service and they ended up “goodwilling” the cost of the front brake pads, however apparently if I keep the car I can look forward to paying to replace these pretty often. Are there better (ie: longer lasting pads instead of OEM)? Good question about whether a software update (which is what has been done twice now to different degrees) is in fact a “repair” and I hope I don’t have to get a lawyer involved to find out. I just want the vehicle to work properly. The car shifts smoothly when driving so doesn’t seem like a trans issue to me. Problem occurs only while stopped and shifting from either P to R or P to D. Car then loudly jumps and sounds like the tranny is falling out! Dealer is only going to do what Volvo tells them to do/approves, but I’m hoping they start actually replacing parts Fri.

    17. #85
      Quote Originally Posted by OilMan View Post
      Thanks for your input. I contacted Volvo customer service and they ended up “goodwilling” the cost of the front brake pads, however apparently if I keep the car I can look forward to paying to replace these pretty often. Are there better (ie: longer lasting pads instead of OEM)? Good question about whether a software update (which is what has been done twice now to different degrees) is in fact a “repair” and I hope I don’t have to get a lawyer involved to find out. I just want the vehicle to work properly. The car shifts smoothly when driving so doesn’t seem like a trans issue to me. Problem occurs only while stopped and shifting from either P to R or P to D. Car then loudly jumps and sounds like the tranny is falling out! Dealer is only going to do what Volvo tells them to do/approves, but I’m hoping they start actually replacing parts Fri.
      Glad to hear. Volvo has typically good willed these issues without much resistance. As brakes premature wearing and rotors warping is seen as semi common.

    18. #86
      Member matt1122's Avatar
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      Yeah, make sure your dealership checks the rotors out. If brake pad material transfers to the surface of the rotor unevenly, it can increase wear substantially. Do you feel any vibration or a pulsing sensation in the steering wheel when braking? If the rotors are "warped" they will usually be replaced under warranty as well.

      Most people have been having the rears need replacement prior to the fronts. In fact, my rears were replaced around 20k miles and my fronts are still good with a good amount of pad left at 31k.
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    19. #87
      Quote Originally Posted by MyVolvoS60 View Post
      Sure it is, because the Government was involved in espionage and the spying of other governments. It intentionally had Cisco sell routers with a known exploit so it could monitor various entities.

      I consider the government utilizing tools that go against our fundamental rights to be a breach of trust and illegal. No paranoia. All this has been substantiated.

      But long story short, I doubt the car made in China is any less Flawed (software wise) than cars made here. Quality might be another issue. It's very possible for China to output solid products if the production line is closely monitored. But it's yet to be seen how China's hand in Volvo will affect the brand.
      So far so good. I do hope they keep it up with upcoming Polestar series as well.
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    20. #88
      Quote Originally Posted by MidnightCandy View Post
      So far so good. I do hope they keep it up with upcoming Polestar series as well.
      Good to know in the short term. Course with cars being made in China being relatively new, we don't have a protracted data set to say with absolute certainty. I'd hope Geely would have it in their best interest to retain the Volvo Quality that we've all come to appreciate and the Swedes became famous for building.

    21. #89
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      I feel the quality of parts plays a bigger role than the car factory. Many of the problems seen here were from parts, for example, spark plugs, brake pads/rotors, certain Pireli tires, fuel fill neck, E-RAD, etc, more than assembly issue like sunroof.

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      Last edited by FusionRedXC60; 10-10-2019 at 01:30 AM.
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    22. #90
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      Thanks. No vibration when braking. I asked the dealer in NC about both rotors and calipers and was told no issue w either when they replaced the front pads. Will have my local dealer in FL check again tomorrow. Apparently the assisted cruise control is the cause of premature rear pad wear but the early wear on the fronts doesn’t make sense.

    23. #91
      Junior Member mattlach's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by MyVolvoS60 View Post
      Since 2001, and the Patriot Act / NSA snooping on everyone's life, I think you have a lot of misplaced trust in our own government. You do realize that the CIA devised ways to turn your smart TV into a microphone and NSA discovered methods to use Cell Phones as a listening device. Plus, the NSA routinely left exploits in Cisco Routers to allow for back dooring them.. And this was being done in a wholesale manner.

      CIA: https://www.forbes.com/sites/thomasb.../#77622aee4bcd

      NSA: https://money.cnn.com/2014/06/06/tec...turn-on-phone/

      NSA Back doors Cisco Routers: https://www.infoworld.com/article/26...-products.html
      I'm well aware of this stuff, and as a voter I am opposed to it. I think the Patriot act is one of the great travesties of modern times in the U.S.

      That said, as awful as many of the things uncovered by the Snowden leak were, one thing that stands out above all else is that there was no mention what so ever of industrial espionage.

      Chinese military intelligence is actively targeting employees of western companies in order to steal their technology and bring it to market without the burden of development costs, driving them out of business, just like they did with Solyndra. Stole their tech, then dumped it cheaply on the international market through subsidies driving the inventors of the tech out of business.

      Anyone who wants to be employed should be concerned about this.

      The Patriot act is misguided, but they are not going to steal my employers technology and put me out of a job.

      Volvo has been allowed to operate mostly independently thus far under Geely's ownership, which is great,and much better than what happened under Ford (I still hate the fact that I found all sorts of major parts of my S80, like its differential, labeled "FoMoCo". But a lot of this stuff is only an order from a military intelligence officer away.

      I know by the VIN starting with YV that my 2017 S90 was manufactured in Torslanda in Sweden, one of the two reasons I bought it (the other being that it has the shorter wheelbase, the new ones are just too big). I'd have to think long and hard about picking up a Chinese manufactured unit.

      I know that even as it stands, the electronics are largely made in China, and that is a point of exposure, and I am not happy with it, but that is likely true for the electronics in most cars these days, so it is difficult to get away from.

      Makes you wonder what data the Sensus system is sending to the home base via its super secret, non-removable, secondary SIM card.

    24. #92
      Junior Member mattlach's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by volvobuff View Post
      Mmm. Any plans on moving elsewhere?
      I'm not sure what you mean.

      There are some 75 free democracies in the world according to the Economist Intelligence Unit's Democracy Index.

      About 24 of them rank higher than the U.S.

      We don't even fall in the top tier "Full Democracy" category

    25. #93
      US is as democratic as China is communist these days.. that said, who's gonna be in LA to rock some free #StandwithHongKong shirts on Oct 22? https://www.gofundme.com/f/free-hong...-opening-night

    26. #94
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      Quote Originally Posted by mattlach View Post
      I'm not sure what you mean.

      There are some 75 free democracies in the world according to the Economist Intelligence Unit's Democracy Index.

      About 24 of them rank higher than the U.S.

      We don't even fall in the top tier "Full Democracy" category
      Possibly because the U.S. is not a democracy. It's a republic.

    27. #95
      Junior Member mattlach's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by VLD1 View Post
      Quote Originally Posted by mattlach View Post
      I'm not sure what you mean.

      There are some 75 free democracies in the world according to the Economist Intelligence Unit's Democracy Index.

      About 24 of them rank higher than the U.S.

      We don't even fall in the top tier "Full Democracy" category <img src="http://www.vwvortex.com/Anthony/Smilies/frown.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Frown" class="inlineimg" />
      Possibly because the U.S. is not a democracy. It's a republic.
      Try again.

      A constitutional republic (the official name of the us form of government) is one of many types of democracy.

      Your statement is skin to saying "That's not a car, it's a Volvo".

      The U.S. most certainly is supposed to be a democracy.

    28. #96
      Quote Originally Posted by FusionRedXC60 View Post
      I feel the quality of parts plays a bigger role than the car factory. Many of the problems seen here were from parts, for example, spark plugs, brake pads/rotors, certain Pireli tires, fuel fill neck, E-RAD, etc, more than assembly issue like sunroof.

      Fusion · Red · T8 · XC60
      Most parts are made in Eastern Europe. I think you are confusing two distinct issues. One being that parts that fail could fail for one of two reasons. A design flaw (engineering issue) or a quality control issue. The plugs were a design flaw that caused the plugs to possible break off into the engine. Making in Eastern Europe or China wouldn't have mattered.

      Then you have a quality control issue. I have far more faith in Eastern Europe than China. But China is most definitely capable of putting out quality parts with proper monitoring and staff. However, two of the BIGGEST challenges corporations face while working in China are the poaching of their trade secters the litany of fake knock offs. Plenty of literature can be found on these two topics.

    29. #97
      Quote Originally Posted by mattlach View Post
      I'm well aware of this stuff, and as a voter I am opposed to it. I think the Patriot act is one of the great travesties of modern times in the U.S.

      That said, as awful as many of the things uncovered by the Snowden leak were, one thing that stands out above all else is that there was no mention what so ever of industrial espionage.

      Chinese military intelligence is actively targeting employees of western companies in order to steal their technology and bring it to market without the burden of development costs, driving them out of business, just like they did with Solyndra. Stole their tech, then dumped it cheaply on the international market through subsidies driving the inventors of the tech out of business.

      Anyone who wants to be employed should be concerned about this.

      The Patriot act is misguided, but they are not going to steal my employers technology and put me out of a job.

      Volvo has been allowed to operate mostly independently thus far under Geely's ownership, which is great,and much better than what happened under Ford (I still hate the fact that I found all sorts of major parts of my S80, like its differential, labeled "FoMoCo". But a lot of this stuff is only an order from a military intelligence officer away.

      I know by the VIN starting with YV that my 2017 S90 was manufactured in Torslanda in Sweden, one of the two reasons I bought it (the other being that it has the shorter wheelbase, the new ones are just too big). I'd have to think long and hard about picking up a Chinese manufactured unit.

      I know that even as it stands, the electronics are largely made in China, and that is a point of exposure, and I am not happy with it, but that is likely true for the electronics in most cars these days, so it is difficult to get away from.

      Makes you wonder what data the Sensus system is sending to the home base via its super secret, non-removable, secondary SIM card.
      Wrong on so many levels:

      NSA Industrial Espionage on our Ally Germany: https://www.bbc.com/news/25907502

      NSA Espionage via Cisco Routers: https://www.infoworld.com/article/26...-products.html

      I've got a bridge to sell you if you truly believe we don't engage in similar tactics that China and Russia Employ upon us. The world is one big Chess Game about who can undermine who in the most effective manner. Just as China and Russia employ hackers to target our military and corporate secrets, we do the very same we protest.

      Far as Volvo is concerned, I am glad Geely takes a hands off approach. I think if Geely forcibly instilled upon Volvo the Chinese Ethics, the brand would lose it's core values post haste. Similar to what Ford did to Volvo, but ten times worse.

    30. #98
      Junior Member Volvolic's Avatar
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      Lol. Sorry for being OT but not to mention when spy bugs were found installed in a Boeing 767 (by the CIA) when supplying the presidential jet to China's president back in 2000.

      https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...oeing-jet.html
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    31. #99
      Quote Originally Posted by Volvolic View Post
      Lol. Sorry for being OT but not to mention when spy bugs were found installed in a Boeing 767 (by the CIA) when supplying the presidential jet to China's president back in 2000.

      https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...oeing-jet.html
      Exactly!

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      Car spent the last week at my local dealer in FL. They escalated the issue, got the SE Region Master Tech involved and ended up replacing the transmission control module and wiring harness at a cost of $4k (under Warranty). So far so good and fingers crossed! In the mean time the small waterproof key tag battery started reading low and dealer offered to replace under warranty.

    33. #101
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      Quote Originally Posted by mattlach View Post
      Try again.

      A constitutional republic (the official name of the us form of government) is one of many types of democracy.

      Your statement is skin to saying "That's not a car, it's a Volvo".

      The U.S. most certainly is supposed to be a democracy.
      I was just quoting the Pledge of Alligiance: "And to the republic for which it stands....." The key difference (attn civic lesson) is in a democracy the majority rules. In a republic a constitution limits the power of the majority. Take, for an example, the 2016 election.

    34. #102
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      Quote Originally Posted by VLD1 View Post
      I was just quoting the Pledge of Alligiance: "And to the republic for which it stands....." The key difference (attn civic lesson) is in a democracy the majority rules. In a republic a constitution limits the power of the majority. Take, for an example, the 2016 election.
      Lots of democracies have features like this in their constitution.

      There is nothing about the definition of the word "democracy" which means simple majorities always win.

      Democracy simply means a form of government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised by them directly or indirectly through a system of representation usually involving periodically held free elections.

      There are many types of Democracies. Parliamentary systems are the most popular, but there are also more direct ones like in Switzerland, or Republics like our own.

      In fact, the definition of the term Republic in the context of American constitutional law, refers specifically to a form of government in which elected individuals represent the citizen body and exercise power according to the rule of law under a constitution, including separation of powers with an elected head of state. The checks on simple majority rule aren't even a part of the definition of what makes for a "Republic".

      As far as the Economist Intelligence Unit's Democracy Index goes, these features are not the cause of why the U.S. does not rank higher.

      The rating is based on experts answering 60 questions spread across 5 categories:
      • Electoral Process and Pluralism
      • Functioning of Government
      • Political Participation
      • Political Culture
      • Civil Liberties


      The U.S. was a real novelty and a leader in most/all of these when it was formed in 1776, but since then others have surpassed us.

      We still do very well in "Electoral process and pluralism" despite our many problems in this area (gerrymandering, trying to prohibit certain voters from voting by precision targeted voter ID laws etc.) We are above 9/10 here.

      Where we fall down is the middle three, which are all in the 7's. Our civil liberties are a little higher (~8.24) but could be better.

      The fact that we have slowly been moving down in these rankings to where we are currently 25th in the world from a theoretical first place back in 1776 is a worrisome trend, and should be a call for us to do better.
      Last edited by mattlach; 10-27-2019 at 09:16 PM.

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