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    1. #1
      Global Moderator MyNameIdeasWereTaken's Avatar
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      Misfire at start up

      I've been chasing a mystery CEL the last few weeks, detecting a misfire at start up.

      It randomly occurs during cold starts, but is not dependent upon ambient temperature and does not happen every time.
      Sometimes you can feel the initial misfiring and it immediately smooths out, but usually there is no indication other than a CEL.
      There is no misfire while driving, idle is smooth, power delivery is good, fuel economy has been normal.
      It is usually associated with two codes.

      ECM-3150: Misfire cylinder 5. Start up.
      ECM-3100: Engine speed (RPM) sensor. Faulty signal.

      Once, it also displayed

      ECM-3130: Misfire cylinder 3. Start up.

      I checked all spark plug gaps and they were well within spec.
      I swapped cylinder 4 and 5 spark plugs and coil packs, the problem remains with cylinder 5.

      I discovered software update 30668282, but that seems to trigger the RPM sensor faulty signal and the start up misfire warning for all cylinders.

      Any thoughts?
      Injectors? I would think a problem would be present more often than just start up if an injector was bad.
      Air sensors? I feel like that wouldn't consistently pinpoint a misfire on cylinder 5.

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    3. #2
      Member evy0311's Avatar
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      Do you have an installation of VIDA? If so, you can check other values pertaining to cylinder 5 in particular. Then pinpoint if Cylinder 5 has anything different about it than the others. Also allows you to check the injectors, and you can check the RPMs and all as well.

      Does your RPM gauge on the dash read okay?

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    4. #3
      Global Moderator MyNameIdeasWereTaken's Avatar
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      RPM reads perfectly normal. Only thing that seems weird is the 2 seconds of misfire at start up (which only occurs once every two weeks or so) and the cylinder 5 misfire at start up CEL that comes on every 4 or 5 days and remains until I clear it.

      I do not have VIDA. After trying two different copies and two different PCs, I gave up on it.

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    6. #4
      Member evy0311's Avatar
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      Do you have a DICE unit? I'd definitely try and get your hands on one. I can help you walk through the installation.

      The issue is really weird. Especially since it only occurs for a few seconds at startup. And since it occurs intermittently. I'd check fuel injectors and maybe run some seafoam through the tank.

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    7. #5
      Global Moderator MyNameIdeasWereTaken's Avatar
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      I had a DICE unit but sold it since I couldn't get VIDA running.
      I'll definitely take you up on your offer if I buy another one. Though I have since upgraded to Windows 10, so will that still work?
      I may just need to get an old computer dedicated for VIDA.

      A friend just bought one for installing a Hilton tune, so I'll try to borrow it sometime.

      That's a good idea about the seafoam. It's been about 20k miles since I last put any through the tank.
      I'll clean the MAF and MAP sensors too. I don't think they're the culprit in the case of these codes on a P1... But a few P2R people said those cured their misfire at start up codes.

    8. #6
      Global Moderator tmtalpey's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by MyNameIdeasWereTaken View Post
      ECM-3100: Engine speed (RPM) sensor. Faulty signal.
      This is the one I'd investigate first. That's the sensor at the back side of the engine.
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    9. #7
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      Quote Originally Posted by tmtalpey View Post
      This is the one I'd investigate first. That's the sensor at the back side of the engine.
      It's funny how all of a sudden misfire stuff is starting to show up on these P1's. ^ Do you mean the crank position sensor (CPS)? I'd also consider a camshaft position sensor. Another thing I will be changing out is the knock sensor. These get neglected and I'm guessing over time they get overly sensitive... just a thought.
      2005 V50 T5 AWD M66

    10. #8
      Member evy0311's Avatar
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      More and more it almost seems like P1s need almost all of the engine sensors replaced after so many miles... It almost makes sense to do it. I'd do what was said above ^

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    11. #9
      Member evy0311's Avatar
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      More and more it almost seems like P1s need almost all of the engine sensors replaced after so many miles... It almost makes sense to do it. I'd do what was said above ^

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    12. #10
      Member EngTech's Avatar
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      Plus 1 for Both Tom & Merc-Dude
      Do you mean the crank position sensor (CPS)? I'd also consider a camshaft position sensor.


      Didn't someone way back find one of those Loose ?
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    13. #11
      Global Moderator MyNameIdeasWereTaken's Avatar
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      I don't know... I found another Volvo bulletin that also calls it an RPM sensor, but the 3100 code only comes up (on lots of Volvo models) with the misfiring at start up codes.

      Lucky for me, I just so happen to have a car with working sensors I can swap on to test before spending any money.

      It's definitely not an urgent thing, I don't think... Just annoying that a CEL pops on once or twice a week. I'll start swapping sensors and cleaning things and let you all know. Thanks for the suggestions.

    14. #12
      Member EngTech's Avatar
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      Also Check Grounds & Pull ECU Connector which will clean things Up . .
      I Used some Die-Electric Grease on the SCU Unit - didn't Hurt . .
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    15. #13
      Global Moderator MyNameIdeasWereTaken's Avatar
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      While the car was in the shop for the recent fiasco, they discovered the clip to the exhaust cam sensor was slightly damaged. They fixed it, so we'll see if that was the culprit for this CEL! That would be nice if it was. No warning yet, but it was only coming on every couple of days.

    16. #14
      Global Moderator MyNameIdeasWereTaken's Avatar
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      Okay, the CEL is back.

      First time it was for the same two:
      ECM-3150: Misfire cylinder 5. Start up.
      ECM-3100: Engine speed (RPM) sensor. Faulty signal.

      Cleared it and it was fine for a few days. Then came back with:
      ECM-3130: Misfire cylinder 3. Start up.
      ECM-3140: Misfire cylinder 4. Start up.
      ECM-3150: Misfire cylinder 5. Start up.
      ECM-3100: Engine speed (RPM) sensor. Faulty signal.

      I'm ruling out software since the dealer supposedly checked for that SW update I found. Also suspicious of the damaged clip on the exhaust cam sensor. Going to examine that further this weekend.

      Cleared it and it was fine for a few more days. Then had a rough start with obvious misfiring and these codes:
      ECM-310C: Misfire, at least one cylinder. Catalytic converters damage.
      ECM-315C: Misfire cylinder 5. Catalytic converters damage.
      ECM-314C: Misfire cylinder 4. Catalytic converters damage.
      also
      ECM-740C: Communication, CEM signal too high.
      ECM-941D: Accelerator pedal position sensor, analog signal. Signal too low.

      Cleared them all, immediately restarted, smooth as silk.

      The CEM and Accelerator codes make me think I just need to double check the battery cables and grounds. I have never seen these codes before.
      I know the dealer was messing with battery cables. I also discovered they had removed the intake, since the pipe was rattling against the strut bar when I got it back.

      I might swap cam position sensors with the C30. The problem is clearly not coilpacks or spark plugs.
      Still need to clean the injectors, but I'm leaning towards sensors or an electrical issue.

    17. #15
      Member evy0311's Avatar
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      I'd definitely check that loose exhaust clip you mentioned. Especially since you have the code for the catalytic converter.

      For sure check the battery, as well maybe the wiring harness to the ECU (since yours is relocated). It almost seems to be some sort of electrical issue because it randomly comes up. And when it does, your able to clear it and then later it comes back.

      Do you know of it actually misfiring? Like can you actually hear it misfiring? If not maybe it's reading wrong.

      I know inside of VIDA there is a feature to view a "misfire counter" for each cylinder. It'll count the number of times each cylinder misfires while VIDA is running. It could give you a better idea on what you're diving into perhaps.

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    18. #16
      Global Moderator MyNameIdeasWereTaken's Avatar
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      This last time it was definitely misfiring, as it could be felt with a rough idle and sounding different.
      But that could just be the coilpacks not sending the signal based on a fault reading from the cam position sensors.

      I don't understand why it would say catalytic converter damage, seems like only an O2 sensor code could make that kind of claim.

    19. #17
      Member evy0311's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by MyNameIdeasWereTaken View Post
      This last time it was definitely misfiring, as it could be felt with a rough idle and sounding different.
      But that could just be the coilpacks not sending the signal based on a fault reading from the cam position sensors.

      I don't understand why it would say catalytic converter damage, seems like only an O2 sensor code could make that kind of claim.
      I doubt there is an issue with the cat, but maybe it's throwing a code for it because there is something related to the exhaust. Maybe one of the O2 sensors is loose and reading incorrectly?



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    20. #18
      Global Moderator MyNameIdeasWereTaken's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by evy0311 View Post
      I doubt there is an issue with the cat, but maybe it's throwing a code for it because there is something related to the exhaust. Maybe one of the O2 sensors is loose and reading incorrectly?
      I've dealt with every O2 sensor issue in the book, never associated with a misfire. If a sensor was loose or had a bad reading, it would throw it's own code.

      Strangely enough, I'm reading about people with these particular misfire codes having issues with the MAF or throttle body.
      I've got a new TB to put on anyway, so I might as well do that now. Though the spark plugs still look clean, which is not what I would expect from a car with a messed up MAF.

      Not sure if this would be related, but the firing order is 1-2-4-5-3. The issue started with cylinder 5 and occasionally cylinder 3. It's now throwing codes for cylinder 4. Sort of working it's way backwards.

      I'll start with the little electrical things and we'll see how it goes. In the mean time, the V50 is running smooth with no codes for now. So strange.

    21. #19
      Member evy0311's Avatar
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      You do have a CAI correct? If it is MAF related, see if putting the stock intake tubes on works. I know that it there is any hard bends before the MAF that it can cause issues, but I feel like it would throw it's own code.

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    22. #20
      Global Moderator MyNameIdeasWereTaken's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by evy0311 View Post
      You do have a CAI correct? If it is MAF related, see if putting the stock intake tubes on works. I know that it there is any hard bends before the MAF that it can cause issues, but I feel like it would throw it's own code.
      I sold the stock intake before the move...

      Also the stock intake might cause an issue with the tune since it's specifically for this intake setup and it would be choking it of air.
      This intake has also been working flawlessly for 35k miles before this issue popped up. So I don't think it's intake related, but MAF could be the culprit.
      Keep the ideas coming though! Everything is appreciated.

    23. #21
      Member evy0311's Avatar
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      Oh that's right you do have a tune. What if you tried returning to stock? If you can't figure anything else out... Whose to say the tune isn't causing timing to be messed up, which causes a misfire? Just a thought. Where'd you get the tune? Shark?

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    24. #22
      Global Moderator MyNameIdeasWereTaken's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by evy0311 View Post
      Oh that's right you do have a tune. What if you tried returning to stock? If you can't figure anything else out... Whose to say the tune isn't causing timing to be messed up, which causes a misfire? Just a thought. Where'd you get the tune? Shark?
      Yep, from Shark.
      Same thing though, the tune has been on for over 30k miles. I wouldn't expect an issue to come up so long after, if it was tune related. Makes me think it's a sensor or other part that has just worn with time.

      I'm thinking I just need to find this gremlin and kick him out. He's making these electrical things way too hard to track down.

    25. #23
      Member evy0311's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by MyNameIdeasWereTaken View Post
      Yep, from Shark.
      Same thing though, the tune has been on for over 30k miles. I wouldn't expect an issue to come up so long after, if it was tune related. Makes me think it's a sensor or other part that has just worn with time.

      I'm thinking I just need to find this gremlin and kick him out. He's making these electrical things way too hard to track down.
      I do hate the electrical problems with P1 cars. You never know what it is, but when you do, you wish you would've checked that first because you just spent hundreds trying to fix...

      I'd check the connections everywhere though.

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    26. #24
      Global Moderator MyNameIdeasWereTaken's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by evy0311 View Post
      I do hate the electrical problems with P1 cars. You never know what it is, but when you do, you wish you would've checked that first because you just spent hundreds trying to fix...
      Or worse, you clean/grease everything and while it fixes the problem, you have no idea what the culprit was. Haha

    27. #25
      Member evy0311's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by MyNameIdeasWereTaken View Post
      Or worse, you clean/grease everything and while it fixes the problem, you have no idea what the culprit was. Haha
      Agreed

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    28. #26
      Global Moderator MyNameIdeasWereTaken's Avatar
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      We all pretty much run through the typical motions of trying to solve a problem on these cars. Makes it frustrating when you've checked everything twice.

    29. #27
      Junior Member Nits's Avatar
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      I just had my crank position sensor replaced and now I'm getting misfire codes on cylinder 4 and 5 but no issues with power or idle or anything. Did you ever come to conclusion here?

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    30. #28
      Global Moderator MyNameIdeasWereTaken's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Nits View Post
      I just had my crank position sensor replaced and now I'm getting misfire codes on cylinder 4 and 5 but no issues with power or idle or anything. Did you ever come to conclusion here?
      Misfire codes or misfire at startup codes?

      My problem was misfire at startup. I've cleaned and replaced a bunch of things as suggested in this thread.
      I'm not going to say I fixed it, but it hasn't thrown any codes in a while now.

    31. #29
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      Change the cps?


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    32. #30
      Global Moderator MyNameIdeasWereTaken's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by mercdude View Post
      Change the cps?
      I didn't replace it, but I did disconnect it, grease the connection, and plug it back in.
      Did this along with replacing the throttle body, cleaning the MAF, oil change, etc. So it's hard to say if any one thing actually fixed the problem.

      Should also note that it has gotten a lot warmer here and the car is no longer being driven daily.

    33. #31
      Global Moderator MyNameIdeasWereTaken's Avatar
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      The problem recently came back. Swapped the Cam Position Sensors with the C30 and that fixed all the issues with the V50. The C30 then started having obvious misfires are start up, but it never threw any codes.

      Ordered two new sensors from FCP Euro and both cars are starting smooth again.

    34. #32
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      How many miles on your V50? Should the cam position sensors be replaced at some point as preventative maintenance or only when problems arise?
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    35. #33
      Global Moderator MyNameIdeasWereTaken's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by kjhiggins View Post
      How many miles on your V50? Should the cam position sensors be replaced at some point as preventative maintenance or only when problems arise?
      167k on the V50. I'd only bother replacing the cam position sensors when they go bad.
      Actually, the sensors that are now on the V50 came from my C30, which has 193k miles.

    36. #34
      Global Moderator MyNameIdeasWereTaken's Avatar
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      The problem recently came back...

      After stripping all the wire loom off the wiring on top of the cam cover, I discovered that the wires leading to the exhaust cam sensor had lost their sheathing and could occasionally touch.

      I replaced the wiring with the harness off my parts car and so far, there has not been any failed starts or "misfire detected at start up." Fingers crossed that I finally found the issue to this.

    37. #35
      Junior Member Quietcoolone's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by MyNameIdeasWereTaken View Post
      The problem recently came back...

      After stripping all the wire loom off the wiring on top of the cam cover, I discovered that the wires leading to the exhaust cam sensor had lost their sheathing and could occasionally touch.

      I replaced the wiring with the harness off my parts car and so far, there has not been any failed starts or "misfire detected at start up." Fingers crossed that I finally found the issue to this.
      Hello,
      did this fix finally fix your problem?
      Reason for asking is that both my 09 S40 and 07 V50 have random cylinder misfire on startup (cold or hot) . Both cars are well tuned (oil, filters, plugs etc) 94 octane gas. No CEL but i monitor the misfires on scanner. Cars both run great otherwise. (no misfires after startup)

      Thanks

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