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    1. #246
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      Quote Originally Posted by LowlyOilBurner View Post
      Yeah, I agree. Tesla’s system is so good that you think it can handle “everything”, when it can’t. Yet. Almost too confidence inspiring. But, man, the stuff it is able to handle is downright amazing. Twisty (like 15mph posted speeds for turns), blind hills that have a turn in them, back roads with hardly any lane markings, the Tesla drove them perfectly, zero disengagement’s of steering. Their path planning is excellent. The neutral net they’ve built is working.
      It looks magic, but really just technology. Any L4 car will be able to do that, and also let you know clearly the road on your trip where it can't drive.
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    3. #247
      Junior Member yluong's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by LowlyOilBurner View Post
      Yeah, I agree. Tesla’s system is so good that you think it can handle “everything”, when it can’t. Yet. Almost too confidence inspiring. But, man, the stuff it is able to handle is downright amazing. Twisty (like 15mph posted speeds for turns), blind hills that have a turn in them, back roads with hardly any lane markings, the Tesla drove them perfectly, zero disengagement’s of steering. Their path planning is excellent. The neutral net they’ve built is working.
      I currently own both XC90 and Model S, and I concur your statements that Tesla PA is much better than Volvo PAII, especially in handling sharper curves and smoother braking on slower traffic. I am not even talking about the advanced feature in the "full self-driving" thing that they claim about such as slowing on ramps, navigate on map, or on traffic light recognition and so on. However, as stated numerous times, drivers need to understand the limitations of each system and not getting into over confidence. That's where the "dangerous" topic of this thread.

      For Volvo, I only use PA on straight hi-way. For Tesla, I can push it a lil' such as on hi-way interchanges with sharper curve. Just need to reduce speed accordingly and let it do its job. Either car, one hand is always lightly on the steering wheel

    4. #248
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      I am on another trip from SEA to SFO, 9 hours a day on road and don't feel tired. Would never do such trip without PA. PA is definitely great help on boring road. On mountain curves I reduce speed by 5 and steer it, can feel PA is correcting and still helpful.

      Can't imagine how the experience is with Tesla. But if I don't need to do anything except some odd moments to avoid hitting divide barrier, it could be quite hard to maintain attention on road. If the car can tell me next 50 miles on freeway I don't need to do anything then it will be ideal. Tesla is very close but they still couldn't make this call.

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      Last edited by FusionRedXC60; 08-10-2019 at 09:43 PM.
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    6. #249
      Junior Member taofen_wang's Avatar
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      Pilot Assist.... outright dangerous?

      The early version of PA has audible notification. The issue is that before the sign of color change or audible notice, the vehicle is already out of control. You can try how it behaviours while passing the traffic lights. I would better pay attention on road (HUD is very helpful) and enjoy music instead of waiting for "ding" to remind me that the PA is off and to interrupt the music.


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      Last edited by taofen_wang; 08-11-2019 at 11:43 AM.
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    7. #250
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      Quote Originally Posted by FusionRedXC60 View Post
      I am on another trip from SEA to SFO, 9 hours a day on road and don't feel tired. Would never do such trip without PA. PA is definitely great help on boring road. On mountain curves I reduce speed by 5 and steer it, can feel PA is correcting and still helpful.

      Can't imagine how the experience is with Tesla. But if I don't need to do anything except some odd moments to avoid hitting divide barrier, it could be quite hard to maintain attention on road. If the car can tell me next 50 miles on freeway I don't need to do anything then it will be ideal. Tesla is very close but they still couldn't make this call.

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      Totally agree, 95% of times driving outside of city I use PA. But having hands on the wheel is essential, in certain areas PA constantly fails. And it does not look anything special for a naked eye - just a short ~1 meter high uphill with immediate downhill and minor curve. While driven manually you would just slightly adjust the wheel, but PA looses it every time... And it would be enough crashing into the oncoming car.

    8. #251
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      Quote Originally Posted by yluong View Post
      I currently own both XC90 and Model S, and I concur your statements that Tesla PA is much better than Volvo PAII, especially in handling sharper curves and smoother braking on slower traffic. I am not even talking about the advanced feature in the "full self-driving" thing that they claim about such as slowing on ramps, navigate on map, or on traffic light recognition and so on. However, as stated numerous times, drivers need to understand the limitations of each system and not getting into over confidence. That's where the "dangerous" topic of this thread.

      For Volvo, I only use PA on straight hi-way. For Tesla, I can push it a lil' such as on hi-way interchanges with sharper curve. Just need to reduce speed accordingly and let it do its job. Either car, one hand is always lightly on the steering wheel
      Have a Model 3 with FSD option, and strongly prefer Volvo PA2. Volvo system is not as good as Tesla doing sharp corners, but for reliability, and comfort, it beats Tesla.
      The following are problems with Tesla, but works great on Volvo:
      - Brakes hard when passing trucks/shadows/etc. Can't use the system with passengers, they complain about erratic driving.
      - Aborts every f....ing time you do a minor steering correction. Extremely annoying.
      - May suddenly swerve due to who knows what. The system can't be trusted as much as the Volvo one.
      - Miss seeing the speed of car in front of me. The info is useful to plan lane changes, etc.
      - FSD options are completely useless. Lane changes, etc are too slow to be used in real life.

      If OP thinks PA2 is dangerous, stay away from Tesla.
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    9. #252
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      Quote Originally Posted by hovik View Post
      Have a Model 3 with FSD option, and strongly prefer Volvo PA2. Volvo system is not as good as Tesla doing sharp corners, but for reliability, and comfort, it beats Tesla.
      The following are problems with Tesla, but works great on Volvo:
      - Brakes hard when passing trucks/shadows/etc. Can't use the system with passengers, they complain about erratic driving.
      - Aborts every f....ing time you do a minor steering correction. Extremely annoying.
      - May suddenly swerve due to who knows what. The system can't be trusted as much as the Volvo one.
      - Miss seeing the speed of car in front of me. The info is useful to plan lane changes, etc.
      - FSD options are completely useless. Lane changes, etc are too slow to be used in real life.

      If OP thinks PA2 is dangerous, stay away from Tesla.
      This is literally the exact opposite experience I had driving a HW3 Model X last week. I found it hard to get back into my Volvo and use PA2, very disappointing performance compared to Tesla’s system.
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    10. #253
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      Quote Originally Posted by LowlyOilBurner View Post
      This is literally the exact opposite experience I had driving a HW3 Model X last week. I found it hard to get back into my Volvo and use PA2, very disappointing performance compared to Tesla’s system.
      +1 I have a Model 3 and Tesla's AP is leaps ahead of Volvo's PA2, BMW's Driver Assist Plus, and Mercedes's Distronic Plus with Steering Assist. IMHO, Tesla's AP is the only system that can be used in the conversation of "semi-autonomous driving" and it's still a beta product at that... all the other systems can only be considered "driving aids"... including Volvo's PA2. I'm not saying that just as a Tesla fanboy because it's not a fair comparison... Tesla put a tremendous amount of hardware, software, and compute power into the AP system and built their cars around it... Volvo, BMW, Mercedes, etc. still treat their systems as an added feature (Volvo is the only one that's implemented it across their entire model lineup). As a driving aid, I'd say Volvo's PA2 is on par with that of the German cars in ability. IMO, the lack of an audible alert when PA2 disengages is a major design flaw... steering wheel vibration alone is not adequate.
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    11. #254
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      Tesla's system does a fair amount more, but not more reliably.

      Volvo has declined to push the limits of the tech the way Tesla has to avoid lulling drivers into a false sense of security. The additional sensor integration definitely makes it feel more reliable, though, and probably does cut down on some errors.

      Tesla is pushing the tech and their marketing to its limits as a competitive edge it really does need.

      The problem is the Tesla system is still only truly usable as a driving age. You can't go to sleep or get distracted behind the wheel, which some people have sadly done. This has cost lives. The same was true with the Uber running Uber's software and next gen hardware - driver was too reliant on the tech that just didn't work and killed a pedestrian (in a Volvo) as a result.
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    12. #255
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      Quote Originally Posted by matt1122 View Post
      Tesla's system does a fair amount more, but not more reliably.

      Volvo has declined to push the limits of the tech the way Tesla has to avoid lulling drivers into a false sense of security. The additional sensor integration definitely makes it feel more reliable, though, and probably does cut down on some errors.

      Tesla is pushing the tech and their marketing to its limits as a competitive edge it really does need.

      The problem is the Tesla system is still only truly usable as a driving age. You can't go to sleep or get distracted behind the wheel, which some people have sadly done. This has cost lives. The same was true with the Uber running Uber's software and next gen hardware - driver was too reliant on the tech that just didn't work and killed a pedestrian (in a Volvo) as a result.
      Keep in mind that Uber reportedly disabled the Volvo safety features in favor of Uber’s own technology.


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    13. #256
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      Quote Originally Posted by matt1122 View Post
      Tesla's system does a fair amount more, but not more reliably.

      Volvo has declined to push the limits of the tech the way Tesla has to avoid lulling drivers into a false sense of security. The additional sensor integration definitely makes it feel more reliable, though, and probably does cut down on some errors.

      Tesla is pushing the tech and their marketing to its limits as a competitive edge it really does need.

      The problem is the Tesla system is still only truly usable as a driving age. You can't go to sleep or get distracted behind the wheel, which some people have sadly done. This has cost lives. The same was true with the Uber running Uber's software and next gen hardware - driver was too reliant on the tech that just didn't work and killed a pedestrian (in a Volvo) as a result.
      The tech (hardware+software+computing power) in Tesla's AP >>> Volvo's PA. It's not the same level of tech where Tesla is pushing limits and Volvo is being conservative... not even close. Volvo's PA only uses the front-facing cameras and radar while Tesla's AP (HW2.5+) uses all 8 cameras around the car and the front-facing radar... plus the real-time processing of that data. Ultimately, these systems are still only "driving aids" with Tesla's system being more powerful/capable than the rest.
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    14. #257
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      General consensus is that Tesla is king of “Auto-drive” aids; however Volvo is working on a far more advanced system which uses Lidar, which Tesla refuses. This system is expected to be available on SPA-2 cars.

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      Quote Originally Posted by volvocu View Post
      General consensus is that Tesla is king of “Auto-drive” aids; however Volvo is working on a far more advanced system which uses Lidar, which Tesla refuses. This system is expected to be available on SPA-2 cars.
      That’s great. When? My dealer can’t even tell me if the 2020 Volvo’s use Pilot Assist w/navi on all the SPA models. The only thing from Volvo that states this is the description under the 2020 V60/XC60 Polestar as using the new system. I don’t get why they have to be so cryptic about what’s available, and when.

      Same goes for back in 2016 when the 17 XC90’s were coming out. Nobody knew if they would have PA2 like the S90 had.
      I don’t know, my money is on a tech company building cars, not a car company trying to get into tech.
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      Quote Originally Posted by Henry82 View Post
      The tech (hardware+software+computing power) in Tesla's AP >>> Volvo's PA. It's not the same level of tech where Tesla is pushing limits and Volvo is being conservative... not even close. Volvo's PA only uses the front-facing cameras and radar while Tesla's AP (HW2.5+) uses all 8 cameras around the car and the front-facing radar... plus the real-time processing of that data. Ultimately, these systems are still only "driving aids" with Tesla's system being more powerful/capable than the rest.
      +1 Exactly!
      I test drove a Model 3 with AutoPilot and wow is it good - not perfect but very good.
      Quote Originally Posted by volvocu View Post
      General consensus is that Tesla is king of “Auto-drive” aids; however Volvo is working on a far more advanced system which uses Lidar, which Tesla refuses. This system is expected to be available on SPA-2 cars.
      Anyone who thinks LieDAR will be working any time soon under real conditions probably works for marketing, PR, or a VC/startup or is mal-informed. If one follows the unkept promises, deteriorating specifications, less stringent markets/applications, and deflating press releases over the last 3-4 years it is clear there are fundamental technology and performance issues that still linger.
      It is no accident Tesla is avoiding LieDAR. It will be very interesting to see how carmakers meet their promise of delivering LieDAR equipped cars in the next 5 years. I believe radar will dominate in the short term, and, if LieDAR ever meets its full potential (still very likely {70% chance} it won't), then LieDAR will dominate long term.
      Last edited by likeXC90; 08-16-2019 at 10:06 AM.
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      I think you are not well informed on LiDAR. The cost was a huge thing but Luminar LiDAR system of $1k has been announced for L4 cars. It's just about two years from now for car makers to integrate it. Many big players are testing it, Toyota, Volvo, et la.

      Because Volvo will claim the liability of cars under L4 mode, they will not put beta system to market like Tesla did.
      Last edited by FusionRedXC60; 08-16-2019 at 11:10 AM.
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      Quote Originally Posted by FusionRedXC60 View Post
      ... but Luminar LiDAR system of $1k has been announced for L4 cars. It's just about two years from now for car makers to integrate it. Many big players are testing it, Toyota, Volvo, et la.
      Announce, claim, boast, brag, etc., this is the same vocabulary that the other 70-80 LieDAR companies are using.

      https://news.crunchbase.com/news/con...may-be-coming/

      What about demonstrating under real world driving conditions, or some real video footage driving under real conditions? Everything released is under very controlled conditions or is very large and/or expensive.

      I'll believe it when I see it
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      Quote Originally Posted by likeXC90 View Post
      Announce, claim, boast, brag, etc., this is the same vocabulary that the other 70-80 LieDAR companies are using.

      https://news.crunchbase.com/news/con...may-be-coming/

      What about demonstrating under real world driving conditions, or some real video footage driving under real conditions? Everything released is under very controlled conditions or is very large and/or expensive.

      I'll believe it when I see it
      Waymo, Uber, Lyft all have self-driving taxis running on real road. It is Ok you only believe when you can get hold of one. But the work would have long been done before that.
      Last edited by FusionRedXC60; 08-16-2019 at 01:36 PM.
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      Quote Originally Posted by FusionRedXC60 View Post
      Waymo, Uber, Lyft all have self-driving taxis running on real road. It is Ok you only believe when you can get hold of one. But the work would have long been done before that.
      I think we have to distinguish between the prototype bolt-on large ugly monster LieDARs that are being tested now by these taxi companies versus the "production" LieDARs that are smaller and aesthetically fit within the car exterior. Making the LieDARs smaller can severely restrict capability (less laser arrays, lower powered lasers, less range, less vertical or horizontal emission resolution, poorer thermal management capability, smaller detector size, poorer detection capability, higher error rates, smaller space for control/computing components, etc) and lower performance.
      Anyone can make prototype monster-sized LieDARs but "miniaturizing" them for mass-production to meet automaker tight spaces while meeting high performance specs (vibration, temperature, range, response time, error detection, etc) and low costs is much, much more challenging. There is so much basic science and engineering that needs to make this happen.
      When you read some carmakers LieDAR specs and assess the state of the art (ie research projects) you start to wonder whether if we can ever meet the original specs (so carmakers or LieDAR companies then water them down), and we eventually will, then we next wonder if we can ever do it economically for mass production. This is what I'm seriously doubting and have yet to see someone show off their real world mass producible LIeDAR unit and under real conditions.
      Last edited by likeXC90; 08-16-2019 at 06:29 PM.
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      Quote Originally Posted by likeXC90 View Post
      I think we have to distinguish between the prototype bolt-on large ugly monster LieDARs that are being tested now by these taxi companies versus the "production" LieDARs that are smaller and aesthetically fit within the car exterior. Making the LieDARs smaller can severely restrict capability (less laser arrays, lower powered lasers, less range, less vertical or horizontal emission resolution, poorer thermal management capability, smaller detector size, poorer detection capability, higher error rates, smaller space for control/computing components, etc) and lower performance.
      Anyone can make prototype monster-sized LieDARs but "miniaturizing" them for mass-production to meet automaker tight spaces while meeting high performance specs (vibration, temperature, range, response time, error detection, etc) and low costs is much, much more challenging. There is so much basic science and engineering that needs to make this happen.
      When you read some carmakers LieDAR specs and assess the state of the art (ie research projects) you start to wonder whether if we can ever meet the original specs (so carmakers or LieDAR companies then water them down), and we eventually will, then we next wonder if we can ever do it economically for mass production. This is what I'm seriously doubting and have yet to see someone show off their real world mass producible LIeDAR unit and under real conditions.
      Luminar offers $1k LiDAR today and they have it testing on running cars and trucks. It is about a sandwich box size. It is definitely not prototype only.

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      Talking about future tech is highly speculative. Let's frame our discussions to what is currently available or officially announced with a reliable release schedule (e.g. Elon's tweets can be ignored). This will be more helpful to people who are considering the purchase of or getting to know their Volvo car.
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      A few days ago I took a two hour test drive on a MY2020 V60 R-Design T-5 with the Advance Package (Including PA). The car was not fully set up yet by the dealer and the Nav was non-functional. The PA worked flawlessly on local roads and highway. I did miss the nav images in the heads up display, but the PA worked great. After hours of test drives on the MY 2019 and MY2020 V60 Inscription and RD's have dropped the parlor trick Look Ma, No Hands style of using the PA and settled in to a two handed loose, hardly touching, grip on the wheel while driving with assist. It is very relaxing and yet, at any moment I could make a corrective response to a mis-read of the system that might send me out of control. Other than seeing the posted speed limit in the heads up display, the lack of Nav function didn't seem to have any effect on the PA function. The PA did a great job of handling curves on the local road AND the highway without any assistance from me. I wonder how the NAV is supposed to enhance the PA? Does anyone have any knowledge in this area?

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      ^ I’m under the impression nav data is used to slow the car around curves.
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      Quote Originally Posted by LowlyOilBurner View Post
      ^ I’m under the impression nav data is used to slow the car around curves.
      GPS and map data is very useful for PA to know the curve coming ahead, how mild or sharp turn, and proper speed on it. These kind of info is hard to be calculated based on camera image. Human driver usually has existing knowledge of the road, or relies on the posted speed sign if available.

      We are all curious if some or all MY2020 models get improved PA with navi. Volvo don't announce anything officially on this.

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      You may be right about the PA knowing about the curve via the Nav. The PA steered me through a fast curve perfectly but it didn't feel like it slowed going into the curve and powered out passed the apex. I assume that is the sort of information the combined Nav and PA might use to execute a fast curve. Or am I giving too much credit to computer assisted steering systems here? On the other hand...And feed back from the wheels about traction and you could have an interesting computerized tweed in semi-autonomous driver assist. No?
      Let's face it..Computer code writers live to make quantum improvements to software, and the hardware is out there with many of the sensors available as well. I love all the new gadgets they come up with to make us want to buy new cars! Makes's life interesting for me.

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      This is why we keep watching PA behavior, as Volvo doesn't describe these kind of details at all.

      I would think PA with navi would slow down while entering a mild to sharp curve, and accelerate up out of it. Maybe there is some improvement for steering in curve but speed still remains unchanged.

      Micro-correction from PA is normal on MY2018 cars, and always happens on curves because PA steers tad later than me, and makes correction immediately.

      You probably feel the same on MY2019 car. MY2020 probably is when PA improvement is made.

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      Quote Originally Posted by FusionRedXC60 View Post
      Luminar offers $1k LiDAR today and they have it testing on running cars and trucks. It is about a sandwich box size. It is definitely not prototype only.

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      Have you seen any demonstrations under real world driving conditions, or some real video footage driving under real conditions? Please do share any links.
      As you might already know, typically any commercial RFQs and evaluation of LieDAR technology includes NDAs so performance and specs cannot be released publicly. So if the performance is crappy the public or other companies can't find out about it. The only way to assess the tech is to pay up and provide some serious funding, sign an NDA, then find out the truth - which is what happened (and continues to happen) with LieDAR funding. If you have noticed, the only rosy details released to the public are from the LieDAR companies themselves and NOT the users of the tech. Kind of a one-sided story . . .



      There are documented instances of LieDAR companies even setting up "production lines" which give the impression of "production-ready" parts which end up being just a smokescreen of the truth - they aren't close to anything worthy of mass production but have overhyped ie lied to get more funding.

      https://www.bloomberg.com/news/featu...p-lost-its-way

      Tell me you know about this? And it's replayed over and over, because there are 70-80 LieDAR companies. Ever wonder why there are so many? Again if you follow the news (just pick any one LieDAR company and follow their press releases), bold claims are nothing new because that's what gets media headlines and the funding. Show me the real world performance - because LieDARs have been overhyping for over 3 years now and will continue to do so.
      Please don't believe every wondrous press release you read.
      Last edited by likeXC90; 08-17-2019 at 02:01 PM.
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    29. #272
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      Quote Originally Posted by Henry82 View Post
      The tech (hardware+software+computing power) in Tesla's AP >>> Volvo's PA. It's not the same level of tech where Tesla is pushing limits and Volvo is being conservative... not even close. Volvo's PA only uses the front-facing cameras and radar while Tesla's AP (HW2.5+) uses all 8 cameras around the car and the front-facing radar... plus the real-time processing of that data. Ultimately, these systems are still only "driving aids" with Tesla's system being more powerful/capable than the rest.
      That was what I was referring to when I mentioned additional sensor integration. It is the same level of tech, it's just a more complete implementation.
      2017 V90 Cross Country T6 AWD | Osmium Grey / Charcoal | Convenience Package, Bowers & Wilkins, HUD, Rear Air Suspension, Polestar Optimization
      Past: 1995 Volvo 854 T-5R | 2001 Volvo V70 XC 2.4T AWD | 2007 Volvo XC70 2.5T AWD | 2015 V60 T6 AWD R-Design
      Family History: 1983 Volvo 245 | 1987 Volvo 744 Turbo | 1993 Volvo 854 | 2001 Volvo S80 T6 | 2005 Volvo S60 2.5T AWD | 2013 Volvo XC60 T6 AWD | 2015.5 Volvo S60 Cross Country

    30. #273
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      The biggest problem I continue to have with pilot is the fact that it is really bad at seeing stopped cars up ahead and doesn't even slow down till the last second. Well that a driving into other lanes around turns. The pilot is very useful for driving, but no where near "auto".
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    31. #274
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      Apologies if I or someone else posted this. Long thread and it's older so I didn't read the whole thing. To the OP concern, Volvo once again did listen. The newer models should start giving feedback to the steering wheel, just like the lane departure warning, if the AP turns off. I think it will be for the 2020 models, but I haven't really tested it out yet on our 2020's, but I forget the specifics. It was mentioned on one of the technician Volvo training videos (I watch them cause they are more in depth than the sales ones for explaining how things work). I did ask service if it would be backwards comparable but they hadn't heard anything about it it. I would imagine it would be, there isn't any new hardware, just an extra line of code.

    32. #275
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      Quote Originally Posted by DFrantz View Post
      Apologies if I or someone else posted this. Long thread and it's older so I didn't read the whole thing. To the OP concern, Volvo once again did listen. The newer models should start giving feedback to the steering wheel, just like the lane departure warning, if the AP turns off. I think it will be for the 2020 models, but I haven't really tested it out yet on our 2020's, but I forget the specifics. It was mentioned on one of the technician Volvo training videos (I watch them cause they are more in depth than the sales ones for explaining how things work). I did ask service if it would be backwards comparable but they hadn't heard anything about it it. I would imagine it would be, there isn't any new hardware, just an extra line of code.
      Steering wheel vibration warning is in the latest updates to all current SPA models already. I know it is in my MY2018 XC60.

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    33. #276
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      Quote Originally Posted by xgman View Post
      The biggest problem I continue to have with pilot is the fact that it is really bad at seeing stopped cars up ahead and doesn't even slow down till the last second. Well that a driving into other lanes around turns. The pilot is very useful for driving, but no where near "auto".
      This is why Volvo call it Pilot Assist. Not like Tesla call it Auto Pilot.

      It also needs immediate attention and braking when car in front changes lane and exposes you to a road blocker car or barrier.

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      Running to retire, 2000 V70XC 237344 miles [2020-10-13]

    34. #277
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      Quote Originally Posted by FusionRedXC60 View Post
      Steering wheel vibration warning is in the latest updates to all current SPA models already. I know it is in my MY2018 XC60.

      Sent from my Z978 using Tapatalk
      Great to know! I had asked probably 2 months ago and they didn't know about it at the time. Thanks for sharing.

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