E25 Gas /Ethanol blend
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    1. #1
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      E25 Gas /Ethanol blend

      I am coming from a different planet where turbo engines love ethanol mixes especially in the 100F (38C+) heat

      Is there any background knowledge into this for Volvos in the US?


      For what is worth, ethanol lowers the EGTs and increases knock resistance which both are a plus for turbo charged engines in hot climates


      If you just want to say "Read the $F manual" - you can skip this post

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    3. #2
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      Let us know how your experiment goes!
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    4. #3
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      Check your manual. Sounds kind of "corrosive."
      Last edited by jowillie; 07-16-2018 at 08:59 PM.
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    6. #4
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      I ran E85 for years on a turbo car with no special parts other than standard stainless steel braided rubber lines and never had any problems. I never encountered the "black goo" issue either. Edit, ok I can't say no other special parts other than SS lines because I did have a large upgraded fuel pump and larger upgraded fuel injectors, however, I did not have the special teflon coated lines that everyone five or so years ago was claiming needed to be used to avoid the "black goo". I never experienced the "black goo" despite the SS rubber lines actually being rather old. *shrug*. So, maybe that black goo issue was experienced by people who lived in certain parts of the country where gas stations were using additives. *shrug*

      You can also use a methanol injection system, or a alcohol/water mix injection to help combat knock.

      Never heard of E25 though....

      There may be some old school Volvo members who don't post anymore who might have experience with running alternative fuel.
      Last edited by Caspian3.2; 07-20-2018 at 12:41 AM.
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    7. #5
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      Quote Originally Posted by Caspian3.2 View Post
      I ran E85 for years on a turbo car with no special parts other than standard stainless steel braided rubber lines and never had any problems. I never encountered the "black goo" issue either.

      You can also use a methanol injection system, or a alcohol/water mix injection to help combat knock.

      Never heard of E25 though....

      There may be some old school Volvo members who don't post anymore who might have experience with running alternative fuel.
      Evrika!!! Finally someone who knows where I am coming from and where I am thinking of going.

      The reason some cars have to go EXX (instead of straight E85) is if the injector pump or injectors cannot keep up with the liquid volume demand, and you run lean all of a sudden.
      So we, on this other planet, are "blending" the fuel at the pump. I am usually filling up at a pump which has both E85 and E93, and add specific quantities of each

      cheers!

    8. #6
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      Ethanol is a garbage fuel. I'll fight you if you think it belongs in anything without a liver.

    9. #7
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      Quote Originally Posted by amd2800barton View Post
      Ethanol is a garbage fuel. I'll fight you if you think it belongs in anything without a liver.
      This. E85 has its place in the performance arena, but in daily drivers, itís garbage. Go from a 450 mile range to a 220mile range? No thanks. The E10 crap thatís everywhere is killing anything with a carburetor (not that that applies here, but still...). I run 90-91 ethanol free in everything I own, including my car if thatís all thatís available at that particular filling station.
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    10. #8
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      Quote Originally Posted by flip7f View Post
      Evrika!!! Finally someone who knows where I am coming from and where I am thinking of going.

      The reason some cars have to go EXX (instead of straight E85) is if the injector pump or injectors cannot keep up with the liquid volume demand, and you run lean all of a sudden.
      So we, on this other planet, are "blending" the fuel at the pump. I am usually filling up at a pump which has both E85 and E93, and add specific quantities of each

      cheers!
      Yeah I have experienced the, damn I wish I would have gone with a larger injector so I could run more boost, stage. lol. But I never pursued alcohol/water or methanol injection becasue I didn't like the idea of having to constantly mix and fill another tank of liquid, which is why I went to straight Ethanol.

      Quote Originally Posted by amd2800barton View Post
      Ethanol is a garbage fuel. I'll fight you if you think it belongs in anything without a liver.
      Corn, which I believe is what ethanol is derived from, should not even be consumed by anyone or anything with a liver. Corn is not for human consumption and actually should have only been a fuel alternative to gasoline, but then we get into the debate as to whether or not it was cost effective to run ethanol due to the refinement cost, which many people frown upon. However, IMhumbleO, oil/gasoline has been no better if we look at all the wars and lives lost over it over the last century. Now if you're a rockefeller or a bush etc then your perspective is that it was well worth it, if you're on the opposite end then it was not, so there's that.

      But if you are seeing bits of corn kernel in your pewps then you shouldn't be eating it because that means the body is not able to break it down and use the nutrients, which there for means that those pieces of kernel do not posses any nutrients that the body can use.

      Oh and no reason to fight. I do enjoy some trash talking on the interwebz about the Itanimulli but in the real world I am a lover not a fighter. We can debate though....

      Quote Originally Posted by LowlyOilBurner View Post
      This. E85 has its place in the performance arena, but in daily drivers, itís garbage. Go from a 450 mile range to a 220mile range? No thanks. The E10 crap thatís everywhere is killing anything with a carburetor (not that that applies here, but still...). I run 90-91 ethanol free in everything I own, including my car if thatís all thatís available at that particular filling station.
      Well, my justification for going Ethanol was this. I lived in between two gas stations that stocked it all the time and I lived far from the only gas station that spontaneously stocked 112 octane, so it was a no brainer if I wanted to run a type of "race" fuel all the time because I didn't want to run that garbage 93 syrup in my expensive fuel system. Plus, I thought about having a barrel of VP fuel delivered to my garage but I was not comfortable having such a large quantity of explosive liquid in the garage and neither was my then wife, not to mention the smell that I found to be enjoyable just not all the time while I was working in the garage, and with power tools no less, plus not being able to use open flame if I needed to for a project (torch), so storing VP fuel in my garage was a no go thus the decision to go straight Ethanol and be able to drive only a few miles to the gas station. However yes I am aware that I lost gas mileage in the process due to having to run 38 or 48% more fuel over the "regular" gasoline.

      That was the price I paid, literally, when I lived my life a quarter mile at a time.
      Last edited by Caspian3.2; 07-20-2018 at 12:44 AM.
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    11. #9
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      Quote Originally Posted by Caspian3.2 View Post
      But if you are seeing bits of corn kernel in your pewps then you shouldn't be eating it because that means the body is not able to break it down and use the nutrients, which there for means that those pieces of kernel do not posses any nutrients that the body can use.
      Haha, we can't digest plant matter anyway... That's what the bulk of our "pewps" is ... Fiber. Full kernels = chew more.

      I guess we should start telling people that popcorn is a vegetable
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    12. #10
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      Quote Originally Posted by mjpc View Post
      Haha, we can't digest plant matter anyway... That's what the bulk of our "pewps" is ... Fiber. Full kernels = chew more.

      I guess we should start telling people that popcorn is a vegetable
      If we don't digest plants and use the nutrients then how do we derive energy from them? How do people on plant based diets continue to operate the complex machine we call human? And then why does the plant come out looking entirely different than what it did on the way in? Except for corn which is clearly identifiable as the same thing after releasing it.

      I'm not big on corn, to my limited knowledge on the subject it is a grain. If I were a lawmaker I would actively work to reduce subsidies for corn farmers (sorry but grow something else).

      Back to fuel though, I find bio-fuel fascinating. If we can run a combustion engine on algae then why are we not putting more study into that area so that we can reduce our dependence on oil....

      Electric powered automobiles are cool (Tesla) but it is too early in the stages to know what the negative outcomes will be from so many old battery cells, unless they are regulated and then recycled....
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    13. #11
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      Quote Originally Posted by Caspian3.2 View Post
      If we don't digest plants and use the nutrients then how do we derive energy from them? How do people on plant based diets continue to operate the complex machine we call human? And then why does the plant come out looking entirely different than what it did on the way in? Except for corn which is clearly identifiable as the same thing after releasing it.
      You're only seeing the cellulose shell. Corn is edible and digestible. As mentioned, chew more.

      I'm not big on corn, to my limited knowledge on the subject it is a grain. If I were a lawmaker I would actively work to reduce subsidies for corn farmers (sorry but grow something else).
      Absolutely. Between government subsidies for farming (which just goes to massive consolidated agriculture companies), and government subsidies for fuel ethanol, we as a society are wasting millions funding a fuel that competes with a food source and has tons of terrible side effects when burned in internal combustion.

      Back to fuel though, I find bio-fuel fascinating. If we can run a combustion engine on algae then why are we not putting more study into that area so that we can reduce our dependence on oil....
      Chemical engineer here. I did my senior project on ethanol, have done a bunch of work in oil & energy, and worked closely with a co-worker who was developed a more efficient way to mass produce algae. Every major oil company does algae research. They spend millions on it, but it's really to shut the hippies up. People don't realize the staggering amount of algae that would have to be grown to replace oil. Algae needs 3 things to grow: sunlight, water, and CO2. You can get sunlight and CO2 for free if you use big open ponds, but your water losses are astronomical, as are the land areas required for your ponds. Algae only grow in the top layers of a pond, so your ponds have to be shallow with a large surface area, which is why the water loss is so high. You can shrink this into large tanks, but then you need lighting modules dispersed throughout the tank, and a compressors to move large amounts of CO2 into the tank. Now you're consuming a large amount of electricity in order to feed your algae CO2 and light. You need a large solar array (or nuclear generating station, or natural gas / coal power plant) to supply the electricity.

      There's really no advancements to be made here. Geneticists have made ultra efficient algae, LEDs are cheap and efficient, and there are plenty of available CO2 sources. The problem is just a matter of costs. The capital and operating costs are high, and even if we funded the capital to kick start production, it couldn't compete costs-wise with oil from the ground.

      TL;DR: Algae to fuel is totally doable, but the capital and operating costs required make it completely uneconomical until oil production becomes prohibitively expensive.
      Last edited by amd2800barton; 07-23-2018 at 11:53 AM.

    14. #12
      Hello, any update on this topic?

      I am thinking of getting a T8 as a DD. But here in Thailand we have either E10 95 (RON) or E20 98+(RON).

      with the average temp at 30 degree Celsius+ year round, I want the car to run with the highest octane I can. But I am not sure if the pipes can withstand an extra 10% of ethanol.

    15. #13
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      Quote Originally Posted by Caspian3.2 View Post
      Corn, which I believe is what ethanol is derived from, should not even be consumed by anyone or anything with a liver. Corn is not for human consumption and actually should have only been a fuel alternative to gasoline, but then we get into the debate as to whether or not it was cost effective to run ethanol due to the refinement cost, which many people frown upon.
      Blasphemy. Without corn, there's no bourbon, and then what... do you want me to just turn into a serial killer?

      But if you are seeing bits of corn kernel in your pewps then you shouldn't be eating it because that means the body is not able to break it down and use the nutrients, which there for means that those pieces of kernel do not posses any nutrients that the body can use.
      I'm sad that you weren't joking about this.

      Sweet corn is a healthy food. It's a very good source of Fiber, Vitamin C, Potassium, and other things while being low in fat. The exception is when it's been heavily processed which can strip out the most beneficial components.

      I guess we should start telling people that popcorn is a vegetable
      It's a whole grain - that's healthy!

      Until you douse it in butter and salt anyway

    16. #14
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      I have a friend that builds race cars out of the first generation NSX. He swears by 100% ethanol as it raises the octane of the fuel to over 105. This allows more timing and ultimately more power. The downside is that it takes more fuel to go the same distance. Also ethanol is very corrosive and requires that various seals and fittings be appropriate for that fuel. I can recall years back that I would add octane booster to my fuel that was primarily ethanol in nature.
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    17. #15
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      i dont understand why risk breaking a new expensive car, yes in a specifically tuned car there are reasons to run more alcohol. i dont see much advantage unless you are doing major engine work to make use of higher octane. highly doubt the factory ecu change timing enough to make more power, not sure id want to stress out the fuel pump running a higher duty cycle to account for less energy dense fuel. if it breaks you absolutely will not be covered under warranty as the owners manual and fuel door state not to use it. if its a cost thing, spend the extra dollar a tank. if its a power thing, do polestar. if its just because you want to, go for it and report how long until you see a check engine light and a weird code. and if you are doing it for the safety of the car, dont. 100 degrees is not going to hurt a modern car with a functioning engine control system. they monitor knock and misfires, will change and adapt timing to account for far more than a hot day

    18. #16
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      Quote Originally Posted by amd2800barton View Post
      You're only seeing the cellulose shell. Corn is edible and digestible. As mentioned, chew more.


      Absolutely. Between government subsidies for farming (which just goes to massive consolidated agriculture companies), and government subsidies for fuel ethanol, we as a society are wasting millions funding a fuel that competes with a food source and has tons of terrible side effects when burned in internal combustion.


      Chemical engineer here. I did my senior project on ethanol, have done a bunch of work in oil & energy, and worked closely with a co-worker who was developed a more efficient way to mass produce algae. Every major oil company does algae research. They spend millions on it, but it's really to shut the hippies up. People don't realize the staggering amount of algae that would have to be grown to replace oil. Algae needs 3 things to grow: sunlight, water, and CO2. You can get sunlight and CO2 for free if you use big open ponds, but your water losses are astronomical, as are the land areas required for your ponds. Algae only grow in the top layers of a pond, so your ponds have to be shallow with a large surface area, which is why the water loss is so high. You can shrink this into large tanks, but then you need lighting modules dispersed throughout the tank, and a compressors to move large amounts of CO2 into the tank. Now you're consuming a large amount of electricity in order to feed your algae CO2 and light. You need a large solar array (or nuclear generating station, or natural gas / coal power plant) to supply the electricity.

      There's really no advancements to be made here. Geneticists have made ultra efficient algae, LEDs are cheap and efficient, and there are plenty of available CO2 sources. The problem is just a matter of costs. The capital and operating costs are high, and even if we funded the capital to kick start production, it couldn't compete costs-wise with oil from the ground.

      TL;DR: Algae to fuel is totally doable, but the capital and operating costs required make it completely uneconomical until oil production becomes prohibitively expensive.
      Years ago I worked for Atlantic Richfield and discussions concerning alternate energy sources came up often. As you noted, there are alternative energy sources to Oil and Gas. The problem is that they are more expensive alternatives. We can shift our dependence upon Oil and Gas if we accept that costs will increase. However, what most people want is a lower cost option. It just does not exist at this time. While it is unpopular, raising the cost of gasoline makes other alternative fuel sources more viable. People will do what they have to in saving money. If gas were back up around $6.00 a gallon, you would see widespread changes in driving habits as well as vehicle choices. Growing more corn for ethanol is a losing proposition. We are successfully killing the planet.
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