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    1. #36
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      Quote Originally Posted by Tech View Post
      And here is something that will hopefully put some of the paranoia to rest already.

      This morning, I had a customer come in with a 2016 XC90 (I know this is the S60 forum, but it's a Drive-E). The engine is one of those before the updated pistons. He went over 17,000 miles on his last oil change. Nearly 18,000 actually.

      The oil level indicator in the car showed down two lines (note this gauge is not exactly linear). Out of curiosity, I checked the level with VIDA with the Dipstick Test. It was still in the "OK" range, but did indicate it was less than full. I did not perform the Volume test because it takes more time. Not scientific, but when I drained the oil, I did not notice it being obviously low. Having done as many oil changes as I have, I can tell when a car is really low on oil when I drain it. This engine has about 55,000 miles on it. So while not in the 100k plus range asked about previously, it also isn't a brand now motor.

      So this potentially affected engine was neglected and currently shows no signs of oil consumption. Could it develop problems later? Of course. Especially if the customer continues to change his oil every 18,000 miles. But relax already.
      Jeesh what a oblivious guy 18,000 miles ! I bet he didnt even come in for a oil change i bet he had a low tire light lol

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    3. #37
      Quote Originally Posted by Tech View Post
      And here is something that will hopefully put some of the paranoia to rest already.

      This morning, I had a customer come in with a 2016 XC90 (I know this is the S60 forum, but it's a Drive-E). The engine is one of those before the updated pistons. He went over 17,000 miles on his last oil change. Nearly 18,000 actually.

      The oil level indicator in the car showed down two lines (note this gauge is not exactly linear). Out of curiosity, I checked the level with VIDA with the Dipstick Test. It was still in the "OK" range, but did indicate it was less than full. I did not perform the Volume test because it takes more time. Not scientific, but when I drained the oil, I did not notice it being obviously low. Having done as many oil changes as I have, I can tell when a car is really low on oil when I drain it. This engine has about 55,000 miles on it. So while not in the 100k plus range asked about previously, it also isn't a brand now motor.

      So this potentially affected engine was neglected and currently shows no signs of oil consumption. Could it develop problems later? Of course. Especially if the customer continues to change his oil every 18,000 miles. But relax already.
      So are the two issues related or different.

      I.E. the 2012 suffering bad piston / rings and the 2015 Drive-Es suffering bad piston / rings.

      I think that guy not doing an oil change for 18K is going to regret when his car conks out prematurely. Metal on Metal is never a good thing. Lucky he still had any oil left. So is the digital gauge not accurate?

    4. #38
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      Who said anything about metal on metal?
      He had plenty of oil left. That was my point. Not that you should ignore your interval, but this is an engine in the serial number range with some miles on it showing zero signs of oil consumption even with this neglect. Prior to this, his oil changes have been on time, so it isn't like he has a pattern of this. I serviced his last car as well and he was always good about it so I think this is likely a one time mistake.

      The digital gauge is accurate, but only to an extent. The car knows how much oil is in there and will alert you when you need to add oil. He was never alerted, since he was less than one quart low. Not bad for 18k on what some people here would have you believe is a doomed engine.
      Last edited by Tech; 10-23-2018 at 03:59 PM.

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    6. #39
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      Quote Originally Posted by Tech View Post
      Who said anything about metal on metal?
      He had plenty of oil left. That was my point. Not that you should ignore your interval, but this is an engine in the serial number range with some miles on it showing zero signs of oil consumption even with this neglect. Prior to this, his oil changes have been on time, so it isn't like he has a pattern of this. I serviced his last car as well and he was always good about it so I think this is likely a one time mistake.

      The digital gauge is accurate, but only to an extent. The car knows how much oil is in there and will alert you when you need to add oil. He was never alerted, since he was less than one quart low. Not bad for 18k on what some people here would have you believe is a doomed engine.
      So 2016 engines fall into the tsb serial number range also ? So 2015 ---2015.5----and early 2016 models that alot of vehicles possibly affected ?
      Last edited by Kjmack; 10-23-2018 at 04:32 PM. Reason: Spelling

    7. #40
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      Quote Originally Posted by Kjmack View Post
      Im sure the engineers said in order to meet our mileage needs we need to burn oil . #!#?
      There are others who have reported their experiences with the E-Drive Volvos, read this :

      https://forums.swedespeed.com/showth...60-burning-oil

      My 2012 T5 is another animal. Not sure if there is a common link. Low Friction Technology having to do with piston ring design is not exactly stuff the average joe will ever care to read about. Go ahead and knock yourself out.

      we're not alone, in good company with Audi, BMW and Subaru, read this by Consumer reports:

      https://www.streetinsider.com/Press+.../10688838.html
      Last edited by Highwayman; 10-23-2018 at 07:06 PM.
      2012 S60 T5 FWD & 2013 XC90 AWD

    8. #41
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      Volvo is not alone because manufacturers have to meet stricter and stricter fuel economy numbers. That's where the low friction rings come in for many brands.

    9. #42
      Quote Originally Posted by Tech View Post
      Who said anything about metal on metal?
      He had plenty of oil left. That was my point. Not that you should ignore your interval, but this is an engine in the serial number range with some miles on it showing zero signs of oil consumption even with this neglect. Prior to this, his oil changes have been on time, so it isn't like he has a pattern of this. I serviced his last car as well and he was always good about it so I think this is likely a one time mistake.

      The digital gauge is accurate, but only to an extent. The car knows how much oil is in there and will alert you when you need to add oil. He was never alerted, since he was less than one quart low. Not bad for 18k on what some people here would have you believe is a doomed engine.
      I think you misread. I was implying the guy was lucky that at 18K, there was oil left. So apparently the engine hadn't burned oil and didn't suffer the consumption problem. Had it been affected, he'd been metal on metal. And we all know that results in engine damage.

    10. #43
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      If it had been affected, he also would have been told to add oil.

    11. #44
      Quote Originally Posted by Highwayman View Post
      My last car was a 2009 Jetta TDI which was one of over 550,000 vehicles bought back by VW for their cheating on emissions with the infamous investigation uncovered by engineering students at West Virginia University. Costs on VW's lawsuit were staggering: over $20 Billion in losses. If that lawsuit posted by OP gets traction, Volvo is in trouble.

      While I'm sure Volvo has not sold as many T5's as VW sold diesels, this "oil consumption being normal" smells of poor engineering. Far from being an expert on such a matter, I will weigh in on what I think are the issues. There appears to be this defensive stance VCNA is taking. There is a vigilance in place within most corporations most of us can understand having worked for many.

      So far I have read many posts on the T5's issue. The main one being the "oil guzzler and no warning" thread:

      https://forums.swedespeed.com/showth...arning!/page22

      Volvo Corporation of North America has to start taking ownership of what is now clearly an engineering mishap. Denying claims due to lack of having their cars "dealer serviced" is full of bologna. I went to the dealer with ALL of my oil change receipts I had performed meticulously at 3000-5000 mile intervals on dino oil 5W-30 only to be rejected due to no oil changes performed at Volvo dealerships.

      I was persistent with my local dealer where I have purchased 3 Volvos and that netted me $2k of the $4k approval granted by VCNA for the required for ring replacement. That said if "Ring Replacement" is a mechanical/engineering fault, why is Volvo not taking ownership and issuing a recall ? Why should I still have to pay $2000 for their mistake. These cars were mis-engineered. The dealer response of the engines being wired for fuel efficiency due to their turbocharged and "Low Friction Technology" nature does nothing to solve the issue at hand..that these T5 cars will most likely become oil burners for most but perhaps not all.

      Perhaps those who drive their T5 like an old lady and have had only fully synthetic oil changes rather than dino oil have avoided this issue. Or this is only affecting some effected range of 2012s and some range of 15s. There appears to be some inconsistency so I can understand not issuing a complete recall of ALL T5's. In that case issue a smaller recall of only effected engine ranges.

      Instead what the Volvo corporation is doing is making customers fight with their local dealers who are the middlemen/soldiers on their front lines against the onslaught of angry citizens.
      I was on that thread you referenced. It's amazing my dealer or VCNA did not want to help me at all. I got the same crap about not doing oil changes at the dealer, one or two, but now I think my engine had an issue for a long time. I should of kept on them better over the years/mileage. The dealer did everything up to almost 100K miles.

      I can happily report the new (used) engine I got replaced for $4800 has kept it's oil for the last 5,000 miles, and my exhaust tips are as clean as they have ever been.

      I have yet to contort myself to get the newer engine's VIN or serial, but I plan to. I also still have my block and you can plainly see it had problems.

      I think the advice to everything would be keep good records, keep on the dealers, and hope you have a good dealer. I obviously did not.

      Won't be buying any more Volvos from that dealer, or maybe at all.

    12. #45
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      Quote Originally Posted by dead2013volvos60 View Post
      I was on that thread you referenced. It's amazing my dealer or VCNA did not want to help me at all. I got the same crap about not doing oil changes at the dealer, one or two, but now I think my engine had an issue for a long time. I should of kept on them better over the years/mileage. The dealer did everything up to almost 100K miles.

      I can happily report the new (used) engine I got replaced for $4800 has kept it's oil for the last 5,000 miles, and my exhaust tips are as clean as they have ever been.

      I have yet to contort myself to get the newer engine's VIN or serial, but I plan to. I also still have my block and you can plainly see it had problems.

      I think the advice to everything would be keep good records, keep on the dealers, and hope you have a good dealer. I obviously did not.

      Won't be buying any more Volvos from that dealer, or maybe at all.
      dead2013volvos60 Please forgive the severely belated response, but how has the car done since the $4800 rebuild

      Ouch I just revisited this and realized I forgot to check what happened.

      Thanks and good luck.
      2012 S60 T5 FWD & 2013 XC90 AWD

    13. #46

      2016 XC90 T6 in volvo- just had test done and cylanders show damage, need engine

      Quote Originally Posted by Kjmack View Post
      Most Volvo owners are not on forums . When i talked to my dealer yesterday the service manager stated that their dealership had performed quit a few "fixes".
      Steve and Nancy
      My wife has a 2016 XC 90 T6 subscription. Has 71,000 miles and is burning oil pretty bad. Car has been kept up, I have several cars and been a car guy for years. Anyway, I Just took in to Volvo in Cincinnati Tuesday, they ran test and found oil on plugs and now have found damage to walls of cylinders (using a camera). I talked to local service this morning and he said the car needs a NEW engine. He then said, they need to get with Volvo for the engine. I get a call back about 2 hours later. Volvo wants my dealership now to do an oil change and have us keep track of mileage until the light comes on. And I should pay $185 for the oil change, which the car has full oil in it now. What does this do? What do we have after this? The test show the engine is bad!

      What does anyone know on this? What advice do you have? Please let me know, ASAP
      Steve

    14. #47
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      Volvo wants to know exactly how long it takes to burn a quart of oil before they put a new engine in it. It seems strange to require the test since your dealer has already inspected the cylinder bores. They might want to replace the crankcase ventilation system before changing the engine.

      However, $185 is a great price for a new engine if you are out of warranty.
      Current Volvo: 2016 S60 T5 Inscription w/Platinum package
      Previous Volvos: 1993 850 GLT (sold in 2016), 1984 240 DL Diesel (sold in 1993)

    15. #48
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      Angry Engine just blew on my 2015 xc60 at 57K miles

      If anyone has info regarding the class action lawsuit against Volvo, I would appreciate it greatly. My engine on my 2015 xc60 just blew at 57K miles. Volvo won't cover the 16K repair because my maintenance wasn't done at a dealer. We have all records, too. To say we're mad and disappointed is an understatement. This was my 3rd Volvo, but never again. We were adding a quart of oil about 2x a month due to the oil consumption issue.

    16. #49
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      Quote Originally Posted by KHesse View Post
      My engine on my 2015 xc60 just blew at 57K miles.
      What happened? Can you elaborate?
      2012 S60 T5, original purchase date May 2011

    17. #50
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      Quote Originally Posted by KHesse View Post
      If anyone has info regarding the class action lawsuit against Volvo, I would appreciate it greatly. My engine on my 2015 xc60 just blew at 57K miles. Volvo won't cover the 16K repair because my maintenance wasn't done at a dealer. We have all records, too. To say we're mad and disappointed is an understatement. This was my 3rd Volvo, but never again. We were adding a quart of oil about 2x a month due to the oil consumption issue.
      http://newjerseyclassactionlawyer.ne...ction-lawsuit/

      I'm not aware of any posts on here from anyone involved in the suit.
      2015.5 Volvo V60 Premier T5 (2.0T Drive-E) FWD (with a new engine)

    18. #51
      Quote Originally Posted by KHesse View Post
      If anyone has info regarding the class action lawsuit against Volvo, I would appreciate it greatly. My engine on my 2015 xc60 just blew at 57K miles. Volvo won't cover the 16K repair because my maintenance wasn't done at a dealer. We have all records, too. To say we're mad and disappointed is an understatement. This was my 3rd Volvo, but never again. We were adding a quart of oil about 2x a month due to the oil consumption issue.
      Hi,

      Let's see what we can do here. I would reach out to Volvo Executives. But first, I need a little information.

      1. Are you the original owner?
      2. Where was the car purchased (Volvo Dealer)
      3. I presume the 10-20-30K maintenance were done at dealer? Who did the 40 and 50k?

      I think we should start by first appealing to Volvo for help. If this fails, you can try to reach out to those attorneys. I have no clue what happened.

      I just had a $5,400 piston job + thermostat + ECM (computer box) after my car developed a consumption issue after every 2000 miles. Luckily, I was still under my factory CPO of 7 yrs / 100K. So I didn't need to argue. Dealer first replaced PCV / Breather Box (~4600) and when that failed proceeded on to the aforementioned repairs.

      None the less, let's see what we can do here.

    19. #52
      Quote Originally Posted by meade18 View Post
      http://newjerseyclassactionlawyer.ne...ction-lawsuit/

      I'm not aware of any posts on here from anyone involved in the suit.
      Yes, that's original link I provided. Lucky for you and I, we got ours covered. OP is one of those unlucky ones who get to deal with this headache without those protections.

      Again, I did a "Happy Dance" when my car developed the issue. Like winning the damn lottery. As I feared this would happen post 7 yr / 100K CPO and I'd be on the hook for $5k or so in repairs.

    20. #53
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      Quote Originally Posted by MyVolvoS60 View Post
      Yes, that's original link I provided.
      D'oh! I didn't even look at the first page of the thread. My bad.
      2015.5 Volvo V60 Premier T5 (2.0T Drive-E) FWD (with a new engine)

    21. #54
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      so, is there any evidence that a product such as " stickion elimination " could reverse this oil ring problem? ...I've never been a supporter of fuel/ oil additives, but would use this if it worked......I know, the answer is it couldn't hurt, i guess.....
      If a tech on here answered that would give more credibility to the opinion..

    22. #55
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      Quote Originally Posted by jlh3rd View Post
      so, is there any evidence that a product such as " stickion elimination " could reverse this oil ring problem? ...I've never been a supporter of fuel/ oil additives, but would use this if it worked......I know, the answer is it couldn't hurt, i guess.....
      If a tech on here answered that would give more credibility to the opinion..
      If you mean Stiction Eliminator, no. I've never heard of it but my 10 seconds with Google shows it is for injectors, not rings. Unless they have another product for rings.

    23. #56
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      72E8E941-5E50-471E-ADFF-1F3B6A16407C.jpgyes, it's for rings, turbo's....

    24. #57
      Quote Originally Posted by jlh3rd View Post
      72E8E941-5E50-471E-ADFF-1F3B6A16407C.jpgyes, it's for rings, turbo's....
      The honest answer is probably "unknown". Volvo's piston ring issue was a result of a poorly designed ring that had tiny little holes to let oil pass through. Over time, these holes became blocked and the rings would stick. Leading to consumption issues. There's a very good video about the whole ordeal on youtube. I believe it's been posted here, too.

      The new design is far superior in nature, more like an EKG machine monitor with squiggly lines and not holes.

      Will this stuff make a difference if you have the old rings? Who knows.....

    25. #58
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      Sea Foam in the oil works wonders for this condition. You can also use one of your vacuum lines and suck about 6 oz into the combustion chamber. Both work wonders for cleaning carbon build up.

      The squiggly oil ring you speak of is called a Hastings oil ring and is a 3 piece which is new to Volvo, not to the industry. They've been around for decades. Volvo used to use a 1 piece oil ring.

      The $1700.00 oil change or first time valve adjustment at 10k miles on a Ferrari wouldn't suit this crowd.

    26. #59
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      Quote Originally Posted by MyVolvoS60 View Post
      The honest answer is probably "unknown". Volvo's piston ring issue was a result of a poorly designed ring that had tiny little holes to let oil pass through. Over time, these holes became blocked and the rings would stick. Leading to consumption issues. There's a very good video about the whole ordeal on youtube. I believe it's been posted here, too.

      The new design is far superior in nature, more like an EKG machine monitor with squiggly lines and not holes.

      Will this stuff make a difference if you have the old rings? Who knows.....
      yep, i've seen all the videos and all the threads..... my 2012 s60 is beginning to show signs at 62,000.........so we'll see maybe...

    27. #60
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      (I thought I replied to this, but it didn't go through? Second time is a charm I guess)

      I second the SeaFoam recommendation. The issue is carbon clogging up those badly designed piston rings with small bores, so my dealer recommends a carbon flush around 60k - they said it's staved off the issue for many of their customers.

      I was able to halve my consumption by going for 5k OCIs and using a high quality oil like Castrol Extreme Performance that doesn't burn as easily and resists carbon buildup. I also check my oil once a week and top it off if I see any issues.

      I haven't tried a flush yet, but will do that and then switch to something like Pennzoil Ultra Platinum and use the LiquiMoly Engine Flush every year to keep the carbon buildup at bay.

    28. #61
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      I just got a 2009 V60 2.4 T5 "rebuildable" core from the junk yard and it wasn't rebuidable. 2 of the 5 rod journals on the crank were scrap. I suspect that the comment by some manufacturers that 1qt per 1000 miles is acceptable on a new engine forget the intervals in which oil is changed and ho many owner neglect to check their oil at every fill up. This engine was a disaster inside.

      I'm having issues with rings seating on a build. It's using close to a quart every 200 miles. I initially used factory Volvo rings with a Napier second and 1 piece oil ring. I'm now using a standard second with a Hastings oil and still being a real biotch about breaking in. I was told by the rep at Total Seal one of the problems is the friction fighters that are now used in conventional oils. They really retard the ability of the rings to seat. I may have to switch back to a break in oil to see if it will finally break in, or build another short block.

    29. #62
      Quote Originally Posted by nusho View Post
      (I thought I replied to this, but it didn't go through? Second time is a charm I guess)

      I second the SeaFoam recommendation. The issue is carbon clogging up those badly designed piston rings with small bores, so my dealer recommends a carbon flush around 60k - they said it's staved off the issue for many of their customers.

      I was able to halve my consumption by going for 5k OCIs and using a high quality oil like Castrol Extreme Performance that doesn't burn as easily and resists carbon buildup. I also check my oil once a week and top it off if I see any issues.

      I haven't tried a flush yet, but will do that and then switch to something like Pennzoil Ultra Platinum and use the LiquiMoly Engine Flush every year to keep the carbon buildup at bay.
      The sad part is NO ONE should be stuck with a vehicle with very obvious design flaw. Unfortunately, most of these issues tend to arise outside of the standard warranty. So then you're at Volvo's good graces on whether or not they'll approve good will. Between the breather box and Piston Rings, my car was easily $5000+. Seeing my car might book at $13-$14k private sale, we're talking 40% of the vehicle's value.

      So owners are stuck in a pickle. Hope Volvo good wills the entire amount or pays for some of the repairs. Spend a little under half the car's value in repairs, and then have a perfectly good car again. Or walk away in frustration and trade in the car. Omitting the consumption issue and passing it onto someone else.

      In your case, a 2012 might been at $7-8k. So almost 70% of the vehicle's entire value to get things repaired.

    30. #63
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      I haven't seen anyone post this here yet, but Volvo fully acknowledged the bad piston ring design problem in 2019 and published a TJ: https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/tsbs/20...61744-9999.pdf

      It has a list of all the affected models.

    31. #64
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      I have a 2013 so not as bad - the engine code is different than the 2012 (so they changed something), and it's always run on full synthetic instead of semi-synth.

      But yea, it's sad that manufacturers like Toyota/Audi/BMW/Subaru took a stand behind their vehicles and publicly announced that they would extend their warranties. Volvo has gone the route of staying quiet about it, even though they acknowledge the issue.

      I was told that because I was the second owner, I would probably get no goodwill, even though the car has always gotten the major dealer services every 10k - both under me and the previous owner.

      I don't think it's worth it to upgrade to the new piston rings because of the price as you said. Ill continue using high quality oils and flushing out the carbon every year - I just want it to get to 100k and then I'll trade it in for something else.

    32. #65
      Quote Originally Posted by nusho View Post
      I have a 2013 so not as bad - the engine code is different than the 2012 (so they changed something), and it's always run on full synthetic instead of semi-synth.

      But yea, it's sad that manufacturers like Toyota/Audi/BMW/Subaru took a stand behind their vehicles and publicly announced that they would extend their warranties. Volvo has gone the route of staying quiet about it, even though they acknowledge the issue.
      Lawsuits and lawyers looking for a big payday have that effect.....

      Quote Originally Posted by nusho View Post
      I was told that because I was the second owner, I would probably get no goodwill, even though the car has always gotten the major dealer services every 10k - both under me and the previous owner.
      2nd owner may or may not matter. Dealer Servicing Gives you a good case, especially if the car was bought from a Volvo Dealer. If purchased 3rd party car lot then odds are no good will. Let me know... We can try to lob off a letter to corporate and see what they say...

      Quote Originally Posted by nusho View Post
      I don't think it's worth it to upgrade to the new piston rings because of the price as you said. Ill continue using high quality oils and flushing out the carbon every year - I just want it to get to 100k and then I'll trade it in for something else.
      Could always offload it and play coy. Pass issue on to a dealer. Not like they'd know your car is burning oil, unless it's notated in your vehicle's history with Volvo.

    33. #66
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      Quote Originally Posted by MyVolvoS60 View Post
      Lawsuits and lawyers looking for a big payday have that effect.....



      2nd owner may or may not matter. Dealer Servicing Gives you a good case, especially if the car was bought from a Volvo Dealer. If purchased 3rd party car lot then odds are no good will. Let me know... We can try to lob off a letter to corporate and see what they say...



      Could always offload it and play coy. Pass issue on to a dealer. Not like they'd know your car is burning oil, unless it's notated in your vehicle's history with Volvo.
      I keep on deleting my comments when I try to go in and edit them ...blame the bad new UI. Oh well.

      I purchased it from the previous owner so that's probably why I was told I probably wouldn't get goodwill.

      I'll keep the car for now. I check and fill up the oil to the full mark every week if I notice it's below by an X. My consumption isn't atrocious yet - around 0.6qt/3k miles (it was at 1qt/3k until I switched to 5k OCIs and a higher quality oil that resists burning and carbon buildup like PUP and Castrol Extended Performance). Plus, this issue is most prevalent in lots of stop and go city driving, especially if you don't floor the car often.

      I was thinking about offloading it earlier, but every car has its issues, and to even get close to something that drives this well while being reliable would require me to spend far more money than just fixing this one I'd say. I might revisit the decision to sell later, but I first want to try a full carbon flush to clean the piston rings, and see if that helps consumption. There are reports of that halving consumption for many people who tried it, with extremely good results if people tried doing it a second time.

      But yes, these piston rings are badly designed, and I wish Volvo would give people the reassurance that they are a company that stands by their mistakes and extended the factory warranty on these engines, as many other manufacturers have done. Instead, they just silently passed a TSB for engines from 2013-2016 to dealers in the middle of 2019 (finally!) that there was a mistake here, and new rings were needed.

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