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    1. #106
      Junior Member john_hamster's Avatar
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      As a V90 non-techy owner, and who has followed this discussion thread with interest, is it correct to assume that a Polestar software upgrade will deliver promised performance enhancement, but that a so-called piggyback chip could improve performance, but may have a downside regarding its mode-of-action in possibly causing undue engine stress? Or is this an apples-to-oranges comparison between the two performance enhancement modifications?

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    3. #107
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      Quote Originally Posted by john_hamster View Post
      As a V90 non-techy owner, and who has followed this discussion thread with interest, is it correct to assume that a Polestar software upgrade will deliver promised performance enhancement, but that a so-called piggyback chip could improve performance, but may have a downside regarding its mode-of-action in possibly causing undue engine stress? Or is this an apples-to-oranges comparison between the two performance enhancement modifications?
      It's a bit apples to oranges. The P* tune is a more holistic, albeit mild, tune. It also addresses functions that a piggyback does not, like throttle response, shift points and shift speeds, and I'm sure I'm leaving out a few things.

    4. #108
      Junior Member pocholin's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by john_hamster View Post
      As a V90 non-techy owner, and who has followed this discussion thread with interest, is it correct to assume that a Polestar software upgrade will deliver promised performance enhancement, but that a so-called piggyback chip could improve performance, but may have a downside regarding its mode-of-action in possibly causing undue engine stress? Or is this an apples-to-oranges comparison between the two performance enhancement modifications?
      That is a very interesting question. My opinion based on personal experience is that any type of performance enhancement will eventually take a toll on engine and component's longevity...how much? It is truly hard to tell, it will depend on maintenance and luck...IMO.

      For example, I've known people with a 2010 BMW 5 series wagon (which in the US had the N54 engine, a twin turbocharged 3.0 6 cylinder engine), the turbos in this engine are infamous for going out, their turbos have gone out between 40k and 140k miles (all over the place) with no modifications to the engine...when I got rid of my BMW wagon it had 125k miles and the original turbos were still going, and I had the ECU reprogrammed when the car had ~70k miles.
      2017 V90 CC T6- Luxury pkg with full color paint Maple Brown with blond interior, convenience pkg, B&W, HUD, four-C. Racechip GTS.

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    6. #109
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      Quote Originally Posted by pocholin View Post
      How many piggy backs have you installed in any of your cars? There are some highly sophisticated piggy backs that deliver improvement claims, not cause any issues and are very smart devices that also protect your car, JB4 for example, even this one (RaceChip) by having a timer before doing its thing (whatever that is). Does RaceChip deliver as much as promised? Most likely not, I haven't found a shop willing to dyno my car...but there is a palpable difference at WOT when I turn it off and I turn it back on from the phone, which is proof that it is delivering an improvement.

      I don't think anyone is trying to convince you to put one in your car, but oversimplifying and generalizing this and/or other piggy backs is not right...or fair...unless you're talking about something like the TURBONATOR!!! LOL!!
      When I first got into tuning cars twenty years ago, when the APEXi S-AFC was all the rage, I installed quite a few, including one on my own car. But the tuning community as a whole has mostly moved on and away from these types of devices, and instead has moved more to standalones or re-maps, though the latter have gotten harder as OEMs do more, and better, encryption. Every single piggyback of this type, operates in roughly the same way. They intercept signals pertaining to the air part of the equation(MAP and boost pressure senors), alter that signal, and send it on to the ECM with the goal of having the ECM run timing and fuel for the altered inputs. Twenty or so years ago, these were moderately more reasonable for tweeking out a little extra power, since re-maps/re-flashes were still pretty expensive, and standalones were in their relative infancy...and more importantly competent tuning shops weren't all too common. Oh, and standalone systems were SUPER expensive with limited functionality. They've come a long way in the past 20 years and the price has come down quite a bit as well. It's also worth mentioning that back then, the OE ECMs were pretty simple relative to today's.

      Anywho...now the ECMs are more complex and are, for the most part, better tuned than their counterparts from 20-25 years ago, yet these piggybacks are applying the same fundamental methodology. In some ways, they're a relic.

      They're no turbonator, haha..., but they're generally targeted toward a not so dissimilar demographic. People looking for quick and easy power boosts, lured in by promises of unsubstantiated increases in power and ease of installation. Their manufacturers and less reputable shops, love them because they're cheap to develop and manufacture (relative to standalone systems), and it takes a shop 5 minutes to install...and charge for an hour (if the person opted for a shop to install).

      There's no real "oversimplifying and generalizing", because they just are what they are. Their operation and function is a known quantity. Different manufacturers may adjust the pre-sets here and there to adjust the altered signals for a specific application. That's certainly better than the S-AFC which was left to the user to adjust! But, even those with fixed presets are determined under whatever environmental conditions existed when they were developed. Those conditions may not be what you experience in Breckenridge, in February, for example, and the piggyback will continue to alter the signal to the ECM based on the two sensor inputs it has.

    7. #110
      Junior Member pocholin's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by nbvolks View Post
      When I first got into tuning cars twenty years ago, when the APEXi S-AFC was all the rage, I installed quite a few, including one on my own car. But the tuning community as a whole has mostly moved on and away from these types of devices, and instead has moved more to standalones or re-maps, though the latter have gotten harder as OEMs do more, and better, encryption. Every single piggyback of this type, operates in roughly the same way. They intercept signals pertaining to the air part of the equation(MAP and boost pressure senors), alter that signal, and send it on to the ECM with the goal of having the ECM run timing and fuel for the altered inputs. Twenty or so years ago, these were moderately more reasonable for tweeking out a little extra power, since re-maps/re-flashes were still pretty expensive, and standalones were in their relative infancy...and more importantly competent tuning shops weren't all too common. Oh, and standalone systems were SUPER expensive with limited functionality. They've come a long way in the past 20 years and the price has come down quite a bit as well. It's also worth mentioning that back then, the OE ECMs were pretty simple relative to today's.

      Anywho...now the ECMs are more complex and are, for the most part, better tuned than their counterparts from 20-25 years ago, yet these piggybacks are applying the same fundamental methodology. In some ways, they're a relic.

      They're no turbonator, haha..., but they're generally targeted toward a not so dissimilar demographic. People looking for quick and easy power boosts, lured in by promises of unsubstantiated increases in power and ease of installation. Their manufacturers and less reputable shops, love them because they're cheap to develop and manufacture (relative to standalone systems), and it takes a shop 5 minutes to install...and charge for an hour (if the person opted for a shop to install).

      There's no real "oversimplifying and generalizing", because they just are what they are. Their operation and function is a known quantity. Different manufacturers may adjust the pre-sets here and there to adjust the altered signals for a specific application. That's certainly better than the S-AFC which was left to the user to adjust! But, even those with fixed presets are determined under whatever environmental conditions existed when they were developed. Those conditions may not be what you experience in Breckenridge, in February, for example, and the piggyback will continue to alter the signal to the ECM based on the two sensor inputs it has.
      Oh, I miss the good old days of simpler ECUs, Jet performance chips and Hypertech!! I also miss the days when flipping your carburator's air filter cover gave your V8 such a throaty/manly sound!
      That's ~30 years ago, or more!!
      2017 V90 CC T6- Luxury pkg with full color paint Maple Brown with blond interior, convenience pkg, B&W, HUD, four-C. Racechip GTS.

    8. #111
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      Quote Originally Posted by pocholin View Post
      Oh, I miss the good old days of simpler ECUs, Jet performance chips and Hypertech!! I also miss the days when flipping your carburator's air filter cover gave your V8 such a throaty/manly sound!
      That's ~30 years ago, or more!!
      Hahaha...crack open the ECM and pull the chip, replace it or "ROM-tune" that 'sumbitch!

    9. #112
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      Maybe these guys are doing something helpful. I just read about it.

      https://forums.swedespeed.com/showthread.php?t=613973

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    10. #113
      Junior Member Magnus Cars's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by csiever View Post
      Not in the US. According to the FTC: "The Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act makes it illegal for companies to void your warranty or deny coverage under the warranty simply because you used an aftermarket or recycled part." With the caveat: "Still, if it turns out that the aftermarket or recycled part was itself defective or wasn't installed correctly, and it causes damage to another part that is covered under the warranty, the manufacturer or dealer has the right to deny coverage for that part and charge you for any repairs."

      https://www.consumer.ftc.gov/article...ne-maintenance
      Magnuson hmmm that sounds familiar
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    11. #114
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      Quote Originally Posted by FusionRedXC60 View Post
      Maybe these guys are doing something helpful. I just read about it.

      Sent from my Z978 using Tapatalk
      This product seems much more legit than the Racechip. The fact that it also intercepts the boost MAP signal as well as the MAF and timing is one of the key missing links that the Racechip does not do. The fact that they address the shortcomings of the previous competitor products (think - Racechip again) and back it up with data is huge so they show how they set off on the right foot. Their product is much more akin to what a TDI tuning box or JB4 (other vehicles) does (intercepts these big three signals) to create a more balanced tune. I’d be inclined to want to try it out at least because they show dyno gains and also address custom mapping for Polestar vs non-Polestar tuning.

      The biggest drawback I see is it requires external power (likely to provide enough current to power the Bluetooth module as to not adversely affect the signal levels coming from the stock sensors) but at least they show them using fuse taps and their instructions are clear (a lot to be said for this vs. the competitor product).




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    12. #115
      Junior Member pocholin's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by FusionRedXC60 View Post
      Maybe these guys are doing something helpful. I just read about it.

      https://forums.swedespeed.com/showthread.php?t=613973

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      Nice!
      2017 V90 CC T6- Luxury pkg with full color paint Maple Brown with blond interior, convenience pkg, B&W, HUD, four-C. Racechip GTS.

    13. #116
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      Quote Originally Posted by FusionRedXC60 View Post
      Maybe these guys are doing something helpful. I just read about it.

      https://forums.swedespeed.com/showthread.php?t=613973

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      oh that looks great!

    14. #117
      Junior Member john_hamster's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by mandrsn1 View Post
      oh that looks great!
      One further query: Do the various chip tunes on offer give more bang for the buck performance gain as opposed to a radical exhaust makeover...catback downpipes, the lot?

    15. #118
      Junior Member pocholin's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by john_hamster View Post
      One further query: Do the various chip tunes on offer give more bang for the buck performance gain as opposed to a radical exhaust makeover...catback downpipes, the lot?
      In most cases I think so. In the case of our car, they offer an alternative when there are no other modifications available. For example, I don't know of a downpipe, or an intercooler for our car. The very few options there are for exhaust cost a few times the cost of Racechip (just to give an example) and offer much less performance improvement...even if no real life dyno has proven Racechip thus far.

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      2017 V90 CC T6- Luxury pkg with full color paint Maple Brown with blond interior, convenience pkg, B&W, HUD, four-C. Racechip GTS.

    16. #119
      Global Moderator R-Pow3R3d's Avatar
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      Please keep it on topic and avoid personal attacks. Thanks!
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    17. #120
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      Quote Originally Posted by R-Pow3R3d View Post
      Please keep it on topic and avoid personal attacks. Thanks!
      It was getting a bit heated, though nonetheless technically interesting “dialogue”.

    18. #121
      Global Moderator R-Pow3R3d's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by john_hamster View Post
      It was getting a bit heated, though nonetheless technically interesting “dialogue”.
      Having technical disagreements is no problem. Taking personal shots at each other will not be tolerated. I know it's the internet and it gives us the feeling of being able to say anything to anyone for any reason, but try to keep the conversation civil as though you were having it in person. As well, sometimes we need to just be willing to agree to disagree and move on.
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    19. #122
      Junior Member csiever's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by R-Pow3R3d View Post
      Having technical disagreements is no problem. Taking personal shots at each other will not be tolerated. I know it's the internet and it gives us the feeling of being able to say anything to anyone for any reason, but try to keep the conversation civil as though you were having it in person. As well, sometimes we need to just be willing to agree to disagree and move on.
      Apologies. I'll edit and resubmit.

    20. #123
      Junior Member csiever's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by nbvolks View Post
      Let's walk through this, shall we?



      What you color coded does not answer what I asked. I didn't ask if RaceChip knows how their product works. I asked for you, in your own words, to describe what you believe to be happening. I've asked this repeatedly because you have not displayed an understanding of how the product functions. You've stated things here and over on the Facebook group that imply that you think it's "magic". Do I need to quote what you said about how the ECM communicates with the piggyback?

      And we're back to the personal insults, built off your creepy stalking on Facebook, where you had a lengthy list of personal insults, which you then tried to edit...not realizing people can still freely see your unedited posts.

      You cannot possibly believe what you just wrote, based on that link. I think you have a gross misunderstanding of what the Magnuson-Moss Act is.

      This applies to consumer, or independent workshops, conducting maintenance within the bounds of the provided warranty. Meaning, you go to NAPA and buy a replacement maintenance component to do a 40k mile servicing, and at 42k miles there's a component failure related to that or an associated system, the car manufacturer cannot deny your warranty claim. That's IF the replacement part was correct, and it's demonstrated that the repair was done properly. (Also IF the dealer or the manufacturer even wants to fight the claim).

      But it does NOT mean, as you state, that it "applies to EVERY non OEM part installed". That's absolutely crazy, as it would mean a person could throw on a giant turbo and a smaller SC pulley, run the boost through the roof, grenade the motor, and then make a warranty claim on the shortblock. It just doesn't work that way. Adding aftermarket components that cause the engine to operate outside of designed spec, would 100% cause a warranty claim denial, IF it was determined that the claim resulted from the aftermarket part and IF the dealer and/or manufacturer wanted to go through the potential fight.

      It's not a free-for-all, it's a protection for DIY end consumers and independent shops. Otherwise, without that protection, manufacturers and dealers would be locked in as the sole maintenance facility option to retain warranty coverage.


      I'm not sure why I keep bothering on this particular topic, when you have yet to show an understanding of the underlying function of the piggyback itself, and that your response to the concern about correct a:f ratios (rich or lean) has been to post a Google Image search result. So I think it's prudent to just not go over this again.

      It would be...but no one has done that here, and RaceChip has not provided those graphs for each of the optional stages within the piggyback. You'd also want to see how timing is effected, since that's also adjusted based on inputs that are now altered as a result of the piggyback system.

      Look, it's pretty simple. These devices have been around for 2+ decades. There have been various brands, with various options, promising various power improvements. Can they work? Sure. Are they the smart way to approach power improvements? Not Really. Have people been burned by them, both in terms of under-delivering on power improvement claims, and on causing running issues? Yep. Should potential consumers be aware of that history? I would think so. It doesn't mean your engine is going to explode tomorrow or ever. It's simply pointing out the shortcomings of such a device and the concern an end consumer should have when using it, and weighing the potential costs vs. the potential benefits.



      RE: What do I think is "happening" inside my RaceChip module

      Without disassembling the module in an attempt to reverse engineer the module and taking into consideration that RaceChip states the use of an Arm Cortex-M3 microprocessor. Here's what I think, and this is merely conjecture, is happening given the obvious physical attributes outside of the module:

      In very simplistic terms I would venture to say that perhaps we're dealing with a microprocessor controlled dc to dc converter with a digitally controlled output. We know that the two sensors that are utilized are the MAP sensor and Turbo Boost sensor. It's possible that these two signals are fed to the inputs of the converter, voltages measured, and either through an algorythmatically derived, or an array stored in nvram, or could actually be in the operating code, an offset voltage is output to the boost pressure sensor input to the ECM. It's possible that the processor might utilize a comparator to control the offset. The result of this would be that the ECM controls boost pressure via the waste gate allowing an increase in boost pressure.

      And no, I'm not new to this sort of thing.

      Do I feel that the unit actually produces the advertised horsepower/torque gains? At this point in time, no. To clarify: I have yet to attempt a
      0-60mph run. I have yet to operate the vehicle in anything other than Comfort drive mode. I have taken two 100 mile + trips and a few 60 mile + trips with no warning lights, no compromised operation and have thrown no error codes.

      Driving perceptions are that I can definitely feel a rather large increase in torque starting at about 2500 RPM. Passing at highway speeds is effortless. Highway mileage is within 1-2 mpg of stock.


      What we know about the 2L engine:

      Volvo doesn't build and engine and control that engine at its maximum levels. The 2L engine is the same engine whether it utilizes a turbocharger or a turbocharger and a supercharger. Same engine, same interchangeable parts including the ECM. The ECM may be mapped differently between the T5 and T6 but the part number is the same for both. A new ECM is probably mapped to factory specs by the dealer when it's installed. What's not changed, altered, or diverted in any way are the multiple self-preservation tools the ECM uses to preserve engine life.

      RaceChip claims, with the particular model I purchased, to practically matching the claimed hp/torque ratings of a T6 with Polestar Enhancement. Does it match the T6? It may on Map 7 but I am not certain at this time. I do have a friend that just purchased a new V90 CC T6 Polestar Enhanced. We haven't paired the cars yet but it's inevitable that a performance comparison will ensue. One of his other vehicles is a 2017 Corvette GS so by nature he's not what you would call a slow driver. One day, probably before summer we'll pair off.


      RE: Use of the word "tricks"


      Within the text of your messages you keep referring to your theory that the RaceChip "tricks" the ECM. I presented a definition of the word "trick", which pretty much shows that to "trick" would require two sentient beings. I believe I also stated in a later message that you personified two inanimate objects. Somehow you ascertained that I thought the RaceChip performed "magic" rather than my questioning your choice of the word "trick".

      RE: The chart.

      The chart depicted below, was in reference to your comments about air/fuel ratios and how tuning to a lean condition increases power. The chart clearly shows that operating to the left of Stoichiometric (rich) produces power. Your answer to this chart is depicted as well as are a few of your statements describing how turning to a lean ratio increases power. I found your answer replying to the chart to be hard to follow.

      RE: Warranty issues

      Ask yourself this. Which would be the biggest liability for Volvo (Geely) paying for an engine or recompensation for vehicle, property, or possibly the lives of anyone that tried to absorb the kinetic energy of a 4300 lb vehicle that couldn't stop due to faulty brakes?

      You aver that the mere installation of the RaceChip immediately voids the vehicle warranty. At week 3 of my V90 ownership (purchased new) I installed ceramic brake pads. Obviously they're not a Volvo part, equally obvious is that the backing plates and pads themselves are not even close to matching that of Volvo pads. I've just had the V90's first service completed. Part of that service is inspecting the brakes. If what you say is true why is it that my warranty wasn't immediately canceled? You'd have to be blind not to notice the difference in color. The work was performed by a Volvo technician that has worked at the dealership for many years and I'm sure he's seen many, many Volvo brake pads.

      If I'm wrong in my statements regarding the cancellation of warranty then it should be simple enough to copy any list of exceptions contained in the Magnuson Act that would support your claims. The information is located on a government site, the entire act is available for viewing and downloading.


      Troubleshooting:

      The very basis of improving engine performance necessitates the knowledge of a/f ratios. You have stated that running an engine lean increases power. You have warned folks that "piggy back" computers simply force the air/fuel ration to lean conditions to gain power often causing catastrophic results. Can you list specific instances that include relevant information regarding any such results? It would be helpful if information regarding other equipment/software installed, what circumstances caused the failure, whether the failure suddenly happened or was there a buildup of errors/conditions prior to the failure. The guys on this thread provided loads more information than someone stating that it caused a Check Engine light or whatever. One would think that perspective purchasers would appreciate an honest evaluation, good or bad, with meaningful, useful information.

      I brought up the use of long and short term fuel trim information again in reference to one of your a/f ratio statements. Your response was that RaceChip has not provided graphs for each stage. There's a good reason for that. Each vehicle is unique in regards to the data presented and moreover, the Short Term Fuel Trim readings return to zero upon shutdown of the engine.

      Baseline information:

      The ECM monitors and controls essential data concerning the operating characteristics of the engine. The ECM detects any variance in a/f ratio from Stoichiometric (the ideal set for the vehicle under test) ratios and will strive to realign the ratio through fuel injector control, adding or subtracting the amount of fuel injected.

      The Fuel Trim data shown when reading live data from the ECM denotes the ECM's effort to compensate back to Stoichiometric or whatever the value Volvo predetermined to be ideal. The report shows the condition of the engine such as starting, idling prior to warming up operation after warm up is complete. Data is presented as a percentile with a 10% allowable deviance from ideal. Short Term Trim data is not stored and returns to zero when the system is shut down. Long Term data is stored for later retrieval.

      What good is it? In keeping with the "performance enhancement" theme of this thread right off the bat I can see where recording and graphing the amount of measured turbo boost, engine RPM and Short Term Trim should pretty much tell me whether or not I'm running lean while on boost.

      An oversimplification but Fuel Trim data is useful in troubleshooting lots of fuel and vacuum problems. Way too many to be addressed here.


      Last but not least:

      Shock! I generally agree with the thought of your statement with a few deviations. A smart approach to gain power? Advertised claims aside they can prove to be a viable alternative to overpriced factory enhancements which add a pitiful increase and power and the throttle response and transmission refinements that should have been included in every Volvo sold. Should potential purchasers be made aware? Perhaps it's me, perhaps I tend to dig a little deeper while researching but what I've learned is to disregard the top 15%-20% of reviews that are instant fan boys but haven't lived with the item for more than a week. I've learned to throughout the bottom 15%-20% of disgruntled reviewers that don't describe anything other than "it's a piece of" whatever.

      I read the 60% or so reviews and try to glean pertinent information overlooking what I would consider to be extraneous data.

      Others tend to migrate towards user groups such as this seeking first-hand experience from people that have used the product they're researching. When others that don't have firsthand knowledge, don't offer anything but doom and gloom about a product based on mistaken theories or generally try to trash a product interject, in my opinion, don't serve any real purpose.

      The object of a "debate" is not to convince the debater but rather to convince the observers.

      My offer stands Nathan. Offer up some form of data that will disprove what I've said and referenced, something that will show evidence to the contrary and I will admit that I'm wrong.


      I've included screenshots, if you will, of facebook threads involving me, Craig Siever, and Nathan Bosdet, our real names to which Nathan has made reference to within this thread and is shown in the interest of transparency.





      Last edited by csiever; 01-31-2020 at 06:37 AM.

    21. #124
      Junior Member csiever's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by john_hamster View Post
      As a V90 non-techy owner, and who has followed this discussion thread with interest, is it correct to assume that a Polestar software upgrade will deliver promised performance enhancement, but that a so-called piggyback chip could improve performance, but may have a downside regarding its mode-of-action in possibly causing undue engine stress? Or is this an apples-to-oranges comparison between the two performance enhancement modifications?
      Promised performance increases with the Polestar Enhancement are listed below. As was pointed out in an earlier post Polestar changes throttle response and shift points. Also included with the latest system software upgrade, "Polestar Enhanced" replaces the lettering for the Dynamic drive mode selection and Polestar is also displayed on the instrument cluster under the gear number indicator with selection of the Polestar drive mode. Because it's a genuine Volvo accessory your vehicle's warranty is not affected.

      I can only speak to my RaceChip installation. I have realized a great amount of torque increase, minimal fuel mileage decrease with absolutely no warning indicator lights on the dash and no error codes in the ECU. Definitely a huge increase over the gains that Volvo lists. In the states the installation of third party parts can not void your manufacturer's warranty by law. You'll find links to attest to that fact elsewhere in this thread. My installation is on a 2019 V90 T5 R Design.



      I believe the installation price for Polestar is $1300 vs the $279-$499 (with an additional $50 for bluetooth control) for the RaceChip

      Last edited by csiever; 02-01-2020 at 07:24 AM.

    22. #125
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      Quote Originally Posted by csiever View Post
      In the states the installation of third party parts can not void your manufacturer's warranty by law.
      Just be careful with how you interpret this - you are correct that the Magnuson-Moss act and subsequent amendments ensure that auto manufacturers cannot void your warranty for simply using third party parts (i.e. they can't refuse coverage for a bad sunroof motor because you put a chip in - they're unrelated), but they can deny warranty coverage of a repair that would have otherwise been covered if they can prove that the third party part contributed to the damage needing warranty repair. People throw M-M around a lot with car parts. Aftermarket exhausts and brakes are one thing...a chip that alters air-fuel ratios and timing is another entirely. I think you'd be hard pressed to get Volvo to cover a blown engine that was chipped. Volvo can't void your warranty simply because it is chipped, but they don't have to cover repair from damage due to it being chipped assuming they can prove the chip was a contributor to the damage.

      It's a little bit semantics, but ultimately you'll spend a lot more money fighting a corporate legal team than you would just paying for an engine repair, and I also think Volvo would have better luck saying, "We have thousands of cars with no engine issues, and then this one, with a chip, had damage," and using that as validation that the chip contributed to the damage than you would trying to prove otherwise.

      Ultimately, I personally don't care what you do to your car. I have modified almost every car I've ever owned - including ECU tunes...but it's not fair to portray M-M as a get-out-of-jail card that basically says you can put whatever parts you want on your car and retain coverage for all types of damage.

    23. #126
      Global Moderator R-Pow3R3d's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by nas4a View Post
      Just be careful with how you interpret this - you are correct that the Magnuson-Moss act and subsequent amendments ensure that auto manufacturers cannot void your warranty for simply using third party parts (i.e. they can't refuse coverage for a bad sunroof motor because you put a chip in - they're unrelated), but they can deny warranty coverage of a repair that would have otherwise been covered if they can prove that the third party part contributed to the damage needing warranty repair. People throw M-M around a lot with car parts. Aftermarket exhausts and brakes are one thing...a chip that alters air-fuel ratios and timing is another entirely. I think you'd be hard pressed to get Volvo to cover a blown engine that was chipped. Volvo can't void your warranty simply because it is chipped, but they don't have to cover repair from damage due to it being chipped assuming they can prove the chip was a contributor to the damage.

      It's a little bit semantics, but ultimately you'll spend a lot more money fighting a corporate legal team than you would just paying for an engine repair, and I also think Volvo would have better luck saying, "We have thousands of cars with no engine issues, and then this one, with a chip, had damage," and using that as validation that the chip contributed to the damage than you would trying to prove otherwise.

      Ultimately, I personally don't care what you do to your car. I have modified almost every car I've ever owned - including ECU tunes...but it's not fair to portray M-M as a get-out-of-jail card that basically says you can put whatever parts you want on your car and retain coverage for all types of damage.
      IANAL and I'm hardly an expert on the topic (or any topic? lol). Here's a section pasted from another chip manufacturer regarding the M-M act:

      When accessorizing your vehicle with aftermarket parts, your warranty claim cannot be automatically denied, nor can your warranty be voided, if you install non-OEM parts in your vehicle. The burden is on the dealer to prove the aftermarket parts caused the failure. For example, if your windshield wiper motors fail, your vehicle’s warranty claim can’t be denied because you installed aftermarket performance programmer, tuner, chip, etc.
      I think nas4a's on the right track here that M-M doesn't mean, "Hey, free for all!" If a product, like this chip, causes or contributes to engine damage, Volvo will have a pretty good case to deny the warranty claim. The M-M is saying it can't automatically be denied, but that doesn't mean it can't be denied at all. As well, when you stack up who has more resources to fight the case and who has more motivation to throw those resources at the issue, most all customers will be on the losing end. YMMV and do whatever you feel comfortable doing, just understand there may be consequences.

      Edit: Here's another tuner's take:
      By far and away the most frequently asked question when it comes to performance tuning of a given vehicle's Powertrain Control Module (PCM) or Engine Control Unit (ECU) is "will this void my warranty?" The short answer is yes, unequivocally and absolutely yes.
      The rest of their post about it:
      https://www.stage3motorsports.com/St...-Warranty.html
      Last edited by R-Pow3R3d; 02-05-2020 at 03:38 PM.
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    24. #127
      Junior Member csiever's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by nas4a View Post
      Just be careful with how you interpret this - you are correct that the Magnuson-Moss act and subsequent amendments ensure that auto manufacturers cannot void your warranty for simply using third party parts (i.e. they can't refuse coverage for a bad sunroof motor because you put a chip in - they're unrelated), but they can deny warranty coverage of a repair that would have otherwise been covered if they can prove that the third party part contributed to the damage needing warranty repair. People throw M-M around a lot with car parts. Aftermarket exhausts and brakes are one thing...a chip that alters air-fuel ratios and timing is another entirely. I think you'd be hard pressed to get Volvo to cover a blown engine that was chipped. Volvo can't void your warranty simply because it is chipped, but they don't have to cover repair from damage due to it being chipped assuming they can prove the chip was a contributor to the damage.

      It's a little bit semantics, but ultimately you'll spend a lot more money fighting a corporate legal team than you would just paying for an engine repair, and I also think Volvo would have better luck saying, "We have thousands of cars with no engine issues, and then this one, with a chip, had damage," and using that as validation that the chip contributed to the damage than you would trying to prove otherwise.

      Ultimately, I personally don't care what you do to your car. I have modified almost every car I've ever owned - including ECU tunes...but it's not fair to portray M-M as a get-out-of-jail card that basically says you can put whatever parts you want on your car and retain coverage for all types of damage.

      There are people here and on other user groups/facebook groups that have stated the merely installing a component, in this case a RaceChip immediately voids a warranty. You've quoted a portion of my post which actually was a quote from an article I used for reference. The second part of that quote states "With the caveat: "Still, if it turns out that the aftermarket or recycled part was itself defective or wasn't installed correctly, and it causes damage to another part that is covered under the warranty, the manufacturer or dealer has the right to deny coverage for that part and charge you for any repairs." Does that not agree with your understanding of the M-M Act?

      The quotation and I both agree that if a warranty claim is filed the manufacturer can deny coverage if the non OEM part installed can be the cause of failure. Whenever I cite the Magnuson-Moss Act I try to make it a point to state the caveat. I can't speak for all "piggy-back" tuning devices but I don't believe the RaceChip alters air/fuel ratios nor does it modify timing specs. I'm pretty sure it's nothing more than a device that controls pressure to the wastegate. Back in the day we would use a manual boost control such as what is pictured below. The RaceChip is an automated version if you will that operates under the same principles. Air/fuel ratios and timing are handled very smartly through the ECU which maintains all safeguards to preclude major engine damage. I find it interesting that you would classify brakes and exhausts together.

      Current Volvo's Owned:
      2019 New V90 R Design T5 Crystal White Metallic With RaceChip GTS
      2014 New XC70 3.2L Flamenco Red Metallic

      Previous Volvo's Owned:
      2016 New XC70 Classic T5 Magic Blue
      2014 New XC90 3.2L Ice White
      2008 New S60 2.5L Barents Blue With IPD ECU Mapping
      1994 New 854 Flamenco Red Metallic
      1994 Used 944T Teal Metallic with Manual Boost Control Valve
      1986 New 764T Graphite Metallic
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    25. #128
      Junior Member csiever's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by csiever View Post
      Not in the US. According to the FTC: "The Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act makes it illegal for companies to void your warranty or deny coverage under the warranty simply because you used an aftermarket or recycled part." With the caveat: "Still, if it turns out that the aftermarket or recycled part was itself defective or wasn't installed correctly, and it causes damage to another part that is covered under the warranty, the manufacturer or dealer has the right to deny coverage for that part and charge you for any repairs."

      https://www.consumer.ftc.gov/article...ne-maintenance
      Quote Originally Posted by R-Pow3R3d View Post
      IANAL and I'm hardly an expert on the topic (or any topic? lol). Here's a section pasted from another chip manufacturer regarding the M-M act:



      I think nas4a's on the right track here that M-M doesn't mean, "Hey, free for all!" If a product, like this chip, causes or contributes to engine damage, Volvo will have a pretty good case to deny the warranty claim. The M-M is saying it can't automatically be denied, but that doesn't mean it can't be denied at all. As well, when you stack up who has more resources to fight the case and who has more motivation to throw those resources at the issue, most all customers will be on the losing end. YMMV and do whatever you feel comfortable doing, just understand there may be consequences.

      Edit: Here's another tuner's take:

      The rest of their post about it:
      https://www.stage3motorsports.com/St...-Warranty.html


      nas4a did not include the quote from a prior message. Just a point of note. My references to the M-M Act are mainly directed at users that have stated that merely the act of installing (in this case a RaceChip) immediately voids your warranty. The M-M Act seems pretty clear in describing that the act of using third party items in and of itself does not void a vehicle's warranty but that in the event of a warranty claim (component failure) denied the manufacturer must show that the third party item(s) was/were the direct cause of the failure. I believe it also states the the manufacturer would be liable for only the original warranted parts and not any damaged third party items. This would be in the event that the manufacturer could not demonstrate that the failure was caused by the third party item(s). It's also fairly clear that the manufacturer can deny warranty claims if the third party item(s) is/are the cause of failure. This is my understanding of the consumer protection M-M Act. Although I don't claim to speak legalize I have read the act. I do believe that the act allows the installation of third party items without voiding a warranty and I also believe that a manufacturer has recourse in denying a warranty claim when it's shown that a third party item caused an OEM part(s) to fail.
      Last edited by csiever; 02-06-2020 at 08:37 AM.
      Current Volvo's Owned:
      2019 New V90 R Design T5 Crystal White Metallic With RaceChip GTS
      2014 New XC70 3.2L Flamenco Red Metallic

      Previous Volvo's Owned:
      2016 New XC70 Classic T5 Magic Blue
      2014 New XC90 3.2L Ice White
      2008 New S60 2.5L Barents Blue With IPD ECU Mapping
      1994 New 854 Flamenco Red Metallic
      1994 Used 944T Teal Metallic with Manual Boost Control Valve
      1986 New 764T Graphite Metallic
      1959 Used Pv544 Dark Brown Metallic

    26. #129
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      Quote Originally Posted by csiever View Post
      There are people here and on other user groups/facebook groups that have stated the merely installing a component, in this case a RaceChip immediately voids a warranty. You've quoted a portion of my post which actually was a quote from an article I used for reference. The second part of that quote states "With the caveat: "Still, if it turns out that the aftermarket or recycled part was itself defective or wasn't installed correctly, and it causes damage to another part that is covered under the warranty, the manufacturer or dealer has the right to deny coverage for that part and charge you for any repairs." Does that not agree with your understanding of the M-M Act?

      The quotation and I both agree that if a warranty claim is filed the manufacturer can deny coverage if the non OEM part installed can be the cause of failure. Whenever I cite the Magnuson-Moss Act I try to make it a point to state the caveat. I can't speak for all "piggy-back" tuning devices but I don't believe the RaceChip alters air/fuel ratios nor does it modify timing specs. I'm pretty sure it's nothing more than a device that controls pressure to the wastegate. Back in the day we would use a manual boost control such as what is pictured below. The RaceChip is an automated version if you will that operates under the same principles. Air/fuel ratios and timing are handled very smartly through the ECU which maintains all safeguards to preclude major engine damage. I find it interesting that you would classify brakes and exhausts together.

      i'm not going to get into it more than my above post because, as I stated, I really don't care what people do to their own cars, and it sounds like we're mostly aligned - I just wanted to make sure it was clear that M-M isn't a get-out-of-jail-free card to modify as you want as your one quote in isolation seemed to indicate. Apologies if I missed more detailed discussions earlier.

      Re. exhaust and brakes - my point is, find me a car with a blown engine due to exhaust or brakes...I'm sure there are more cases due to piggy-back or even your manual boost controls. IMO (maybe not everyone's O, but mine...), these are far more risky mods for the health of your car overall.

    27. #130
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      Oy vey....you're still well off the mark.

      Quote Originally Posted by csiever View Post
      I can't speak for all "piggy-back" tuning devices but I don't believe the RaceChip alters air/fuel ratios nor does it modify timing specs. I'm pretty sure it's nothing more than a device that controls pressure to the wastegate.
      Again, demonstrating you've installed a part that you don't understand what it's doing. It is NOT an EBC (Electronic Boost Controller). For the one-thousandth time, it is a device that is altering/modifying the air volume and pressure signals so that the ECM alters the fuel and timing. IT DOES NOT ALTER THE FUEL AND TIMING MAPS THEMSELVES. In the simplest terms possible, the ECM sees X and Y inputs (real or altered) from A and B sensors, and uses that information to determine how much fuel to inject and what ignition timing to apply. That's it. Which brings us to our next topic...

      Your interpretation of the M-M Act.

      Nobody has said that applying the piggyback voids the warranty full stop. I think I gave an example here or elsewhere that putting this piggyback on and then going in for a warranty claim on your rear wiper, they are not going to deny your wiper warranty claim because of the piggyback. BUT....if you damage your engine in a way that is tied to improper fueling, improper timing, etc., then yes, they have grounds to deny your claim, because you've put a device on the car that forced the car to operate outside of the programmed parameters for a given environmental condition. Honest performance manufacturers and tuning shops will tell you this upfront, as demonstrated by others above.

      Even your caveat seems to be a misinterpretation on your part...

      Quote Originally Posted by csiever View Post
      With the caveat: "Still, if it turns out that the aftermarket or recycled part was itself defective or wasn't installed correctly, and it causes damage to another part that is covered under the warranty, the manufacturer or dealer has the right to deny coverage for that part and charge you for any repairs."
      That is like for like parts. So, to give a few examples one for a recycled part, and one for a new aftermarket part;

      1. (the recycled example): If you purchased a recycled a/c compressor off of a wrecked car and installed that in yours to replace your failed compressor. If in doing that, it turns out that either the recycled compressor was itself damaged internally, or if your installer did not properly evac the system, and in either case there was still bits of metal introduced or remaining in the a/c system and those end up damaging the expansion valve, the dealer/Volvo then COULD deny the warranty claim on the expansion valve. They could deny it either because they can show that the recycled compressor was already faulty/damaged, or that the installation was not properly done to clear the system of metal fragments from the removed compressor. But in this case it's still a like for like repair.

      2. (the new aftermarket part example): I gave this already, but assume you replaced your own rotors and pads. You went down to NAPA/O'Reilly's/Advanced Auto and picked up the rotors and pads they show that are applicable for your car. You go home and install those. A month later there's a piston seal failure within one of the caliper and you begin losing brake pressure. You take it into your dealer for repairs. In that scenario they CANNOT deny your warranty claim on the caliper piston seal simply because you replaced the rotors and pads with off the shelf NAPA/O'Reilly's/Advanced Auto parts that are applicable to your make and model. It's a like for like repair/replacement.

      Different from either of those examples is adding performance enhancements that specifically alter the operation of the vehicle. The M-M Act does NOT cover you in that situation. It is not a like for like repair/replacement. You are adding a device that is deigned to manipulate the ECM to change the output that would otherwise occur if the device was not present. Even IF we were talking about a simple boost controller, that too COULD result in a warranty claim denial IF, for example, that boost controller allowed for the turbo to over boost and the impeller to come apart resulting in at the very least the need to replace the turbo itself. They (the dealer/Volvo) would claim that the device (boost controller) caused the turbo to operate outside of both it's design specs and/or that it was operated in a way that would not have otherwise been possible had the device not been present, and that therefor they cannot guarantee/warranty its safe operation.

      But again, and as always, your car, your money, your risk.

    28. #131
      Junior Member csiever's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by nas4a View Post
      i'm not going to get into it more than my above post because, as I stated, I really don't care what people do to their own cars, and it sounds like we're mostly aligned - I just wanted to make sure it was clear that M-M isn't a get-out-of-jail-free card to modify as you want as your one quote in isolation seemed to indicate. Apologies if I missed more detailed discussions earlier.

      Re. exhaust and brakes - my point is, find me a car with a blown engine due to exhaust or brakes...I'm sure there are more cases due to piggy-back or even your manual boost controls. IMO (maybe not everyone's O, but mine...), these are far more risky mods for the health of your car overall.
      No apologies necessary. I have a tendency, as some have pointed out, to be "wordy". In this case I guess I wasn't wordy enough. RE: Brakes. I can more afford to repair/replace an engine in the event of failure rather than to afford the possible results of brake failure where lives may be at stake.

      RE: Blown engine due to exhaust or brakes. While performing research on the RaceChip I read a "review" where the user had absolutely nothing good to say about the product. He claimed that the RaceChip "burned out" his injector relay. Had to laugh.
      Current Volvo's Owned:
      2019 New V90 R Design T5 Crystal White Metallic With RaceChip GTS
      2014 New XC70 3.2L Flamenco Red Metallic

      Previous Volvo's Owned:
      2016 New XC70 Classic T5 Magic Blue
      2014 New XC90 3.2L Ice White
      2008 New S60 2.5L Barents Blue With IPD ECU Mapping
      1994 New 854 Flamenco Red Metallic
      1994 Used 944T Teal Metallic with Manual Boost Control Valve
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      1959 Used Pv544 Dark Brown Metallic

    29. #132
      Junior Member amarshall's Avatar
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      I'm from the old VWAG tuning crowd and recently asked APR if they had any interest in making a chip for volvos and they politely declined. My old APR chip was good for 40 hp on a 1.8T
      2018 V90 T6 R-Design Polestar
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    30. #133
      Junior Member csiever's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by nbvolks View Post
      Oy vey....you're still well off the mark.



      Again, demonstrating you've installed a part that you don't understand what it's doing. It is NOT an EBC (Electronic Boost Controller). For the one-thousandth time, it is a device that is altering/modifying the air volume and pressure signals so that the ECM alters the fuel and timing. IT DOES NOT ALTER THE FUEL AND TIMING MAPS THEMSELVES. In the simplest terms possible, the ECM sees X and Y inputs (real or altered) from A and B sensors, and uses that information to determine how much fuel to inject and what ignition timing to apply. That's it. Which brings us to our next topic...
      Nathan, Nathan, Nathan. Do I need to post your "Crystal Clear" Facebook post again? It's in a previous message above if you've forgotten what your explanation was as to how the RaceChip increases power. I believe you've stated several times that running a lean a/f ratio increases power. Still standing by that? Ask yourself this: If RaceChip does not increase hp and torque by indirectly controlling boost levels via wastegate control then why is it that every single engine that RaceChip manufacturers their controller for is a pressure fed engine? Why not make one for a na engine? I'll tell you why because changing fuel maps and ignition timing on its own will not produce the amount of power that simply increasing boost will produce. Bump up the pressure and let the ECM handle a/f ratios, fuel control, ignition timing. That's what the ECM does and it does it across a broad range of conditions INCLUDING additional boost levels.






      Quote Originally Posted by nbvolks View Post
      Your interpretation of the M-M Act.

      Nobody has said that applying the piggyback voids the warranty full stop.
      Uh, yes they have, you included.


      Quote Originally Posted by nbvolks View Post
      I think I gave an example here or elsewhere that putting this piggyback on and then going in for a warranty claim on your rear wiper, they are not going to deny your wiper warranty claim because of the piggyback. BUT....if you damage your engine in a way that is tied to improper fueling, improper timing, etc., then yes, they have grounds to deny your claim, because you've put a device on the car that forced the car to operate outside of the programmed parameters for a given environmental condition. Honest performance manufacturers and tuning shops will tell you this upfront, as demonstrated by others above.

      Even your caveat seems to be a misinterpretation on your part...
      The caveat was quoted from the FTC site. That's why it was in quotes.






      Quote Originally Posted by nbvolks View Post
      That is like for like parts. So, to give a few examples one for a recycled part, and one for a new aftermarket part;

      1. (the recycled example): If you purchased a recycled a/c compressor off of a wrecked car and installed that in yours to replace your failed compressor. If in doing that, it turns out that either the recycled compressor was itself damaged internally, or if your installer did not properly evac the system, and in either case there was still bits of metal introduced or remaining in the a/c system and those end up damaging the expansion valve, the dealer/Volvo then COULD deny the warranty claim on the expansion valve. They could deny it either because they can show that the recycled compressor was already faulty/damaged, or that the installation was not properly done to clear the system of metal fragments from the removed compressor. But in this case it's still a like for like repair.

      2. (the new aftermarket part example): I gave this already, but assume you replaced your own rotors and pads. You went down to NAPA/O'Reilly's/Advanced Auto and picked up the rotors and pads they show that are applicable for your car. You go home and install those. A month later there's a piston seal failure within one of the caliper and you begin losing brake pressure. You take it into your dealer for repairs. In that scenario they CANNOT deny your warranty claim on the caliper piston seal simply because you replaced the rotors and pads with off the shelf NAPA/O'Reilly's/Advanced Auto parts that are applicable to your make and model. It's a like for like repair/replacement.

      Different from either of those examples is adding performance enhancements that specifically alter the operation of the vehicle. The M-M Act does NOT cover you in that situation. It is not a like for like repair/replacement. You are adding a device that is deigned to manipulate the ECM to change the output that would otherwise occur if the device was not present. Even IF we were talking about a simple boost controller, that too COULD result in a warranty claim denial IF, for example, that boost controller allowed for the turbo to over boost and the impeller to come apart resulting in at the very least the need to replace the turbo itself. They (the dealer/Volvo) would claim that the device (boost controller) caused the turbo to operate outside of both it's design specs and/or that it was operated in a way that would not have otherwise been possible had the device not been present, and that therefor they cannot guarantee/warranty its safe operation.

      But again, and as always, your car, your money, your risk.

      I see a lot of your words yet I don't see anything offered as a reference. No links. No quotes. Just your words. Still waiting for validation.
      Last edited by csiever; 02-06-2020 at 10:58 AM.
      Current Volvo's Owned:
      2019 New V90 R Design T5 Crystal White Metallic With RaceChip GTS
      2014 New XC70 3.2L Flamenco Red Metallic

      Previous Volvo's Owned:
      2016 New XC70 Classic T5 Magic Blue
      2014 New XC90 3.2L Ice White
      2008 New S60 2.5L Barents Blue With IPD ECU Mapping
      1994 New 854 Flamenco Red Metallic
      1994 Used 944T Teal Metallic with Manual Boost Control Valve
      1986 New 764T Graphite Metallic
      1959 Used Pv544 Dark Brown Metallic

    31. #134
      Global Moderator R-Pow3R3d's Avatar
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      csiever - Purely out of curiosity, are you in some way associated with Race Chip or are you just the most loyal customer they could ever hope to have? This is quite a vigorous fight for some random aftermarket product. I've bought a lot of random aftermarket products and I can't imagine a single case where I would have exhausted this kind of time and energy to make a case for the use or in defense of that product.
      2004 V70R MT TiGray/Nordkap - Replica 18" Pegs - Handbrake Mod
      2007 XC90 V8 Sport Passion Red/Off-Black - Serpentine Belt, Tensioner & Idler Pulleys - Spark Plug Replacement - Y-Pipe Replacement
      1990 745 Turbo Intercooler White/Beige
      2006 & 2007 XC70
      VIDA/DICE Owner - SS Lurker Since 2009 - '06-'07 Transmission Valve Body Info - SR/VR Failing Throttle Body
      Current Non-Volvo: 2007 VTX 1800 F3, 2002 VT750DC
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      Why are you interpreting "aftermarket part" to be ANY aftermarket part, and not any non-OEM replacement part? That would be my first question.

      Now let's work through what's said at each level, starting with RaceChip.

      Their stance is right there on their website (https://www.racechip.us/service-supp...html#important ):

      racechip.jpg

      Next up is Volvo's language within their warranty manual ( https://volvornt.harte-hanks.com/man...l_01-23-18.pdf ):

      Starting on page 32 of Volvo's 2019 Warranty booklet, they outline their general warranty info, and on page 33 they start listing out exclusions. That extends to page 34, where you'll note:

      warranty.jpg

      They explicitly call out modifications generally, but then specifically identify modifications to the ECM systems. Again, they're not dumb, people have been using piggy backs and doing chip tunes long enough for them to specifically identify it as grounds for denying damage resulting from their use.

      The FTC notification/clarification ( https://www.consumer.ftc.gov/article...ne-maintenance ):

      You've shared parts of this, but somehow ignore that it's entirely related to owner's or independent shops conducting routine maintenance and/or repairs, within the defined specs of the manufacturer. Modifications, such as a piggy-back system designed to alter sensor inputs, is not reasonably part of routine maintenance or repair schedule.

      ftc.jpg

      Then there's the M-M Act itself, which really doesn't address any of this with the specificity that the FTC clarification does. But for the record, you can read it here: https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/15/chapter-50


      So....

      - RaceChip says you're at risk of running afoul of your warranty, should damage result from their product.
      - Volvo says you're at risk of running afoul of your warranty, should damage result from the use of the RaceChip piggy-back.
      - The FTC clarification to the M-M Act is clearly talking about routine maintenance and repairs and the use of aftermarket (non-OEM) parts to do so. Not about modifications above and beyond that routine maintenance and repairs and their associated components.


      But again, a warranty claim denial on one or more component(s), does not mean complete loss of warranty for all components.

      Your car, your money, your risk.

    33. #136
      Junior Member csiever's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by R-Pow3R3d View Post
      csiever - Purely out of curiosity, are you in some way associated with Race Chip or are you just the most loyal customer they could ever hope to have? This is quite a vigorous fight for some random aftermarket product. I've bought a lot of random aftermarket products and I can't imagine a single case where I would have exhausted this kind of time and energy to make a case for the use or in defense of that product.
      The short answer would be no and no. Like a lot of people, I tend to migrate to user groups such as this when I seek input from people that own or have owned a product. I read their experiences, ask questions and gain knowledge. There are a great many people that post bad reviews on any product for a myriad of reasons that either don't have anything to do with the product itself, fail to meet unreasonable suitability expectations due to a less than firm grasp of basic theory, or generally reasons that just don't seem to add up. I think it's important to note that sometimes a component will fail and sometimes the product just sucks. As an example a user asks whether or not installing product X will void his warranty. I think we both know that merely installing product X does not immediately void a warranty as is alluded to by many but what often is left out are the conditions of denied warranty repair. I'm guilty of that as well as you have seen.

      I think there are many out there that are seeking ways to improve performance and want to know if the $1300 or so that Volvo charges for their enhancement is worth the money and what less costly alternatives are available. Unfortunately there are those that would condemn a product not through personal experience but with an explanation that is the antithesis of internal combustion engine theory that I've learned since being a teenager growing up during the age of muscle cars. Yeah, I'm that old. The object of a debate is not to change the mind of your opponent but rather to perhaps change the mind of the observer.

      I wish there had been someone that took the time to research and share the knowledge prior to my using Slick 50 in vehicle that utilized an oil/air cooled turbocharger back in the day.

      I have no illusions with the RaceChip, don't expect it to attain the performance levels they've advertised. Frankly, that doesn't matter to me as long as it provides a kick in mid-range performance.

      I think it's important for the folks interested to know that there's someone giving an honest review and is willing to run a deep scan prior to posting results. If this thing goes South on me I'll be the first to report just that along with any error codes thrown.
      Last edited by csiever; 02-07-2020 at 07:47 AM.
      Current Volvo's Owned:
      2019 New V90 R Design T5 Crystal White Metallic With RaceChip GTS
      2014 New XC70 3.2L Flamenco Red Metallic

      Previous Volvo's Owned:
      2016 New XC70 Classic T5 Magic Blue
      2014 New XC90 3.2L Ice White
      2008 New S60 2.5L Barents Blue With IPD ECU Mapping
      1994 New 854 Flamenco Red Metallic
      1994 Used 944T Teal Metallic with Manual Boost Control Valve
      1986 New 764T Graphite Metallic
      1959 Used Pv544 Dark Brown Metallic

    34. #137
      Junior Member csiever's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by nbvolks View Post
      Why are you interpreting "aftermarket part" to be ANY aftermarket part, and not any non-OEM replacement part? That would be my first question.

      And here's your first answer to your first question: Because the definition of "aftermarket part" as it pertains to warranties is called out on the FTC web site:

      "Will using 'aftermarket' or recycled parts void my warranty?
      No. An 'aftermarket' part is a part made by a company other than the vehicle manufacturer or the original equipment manufacturer. A 'recycled' part is a part that was made for and installed in a new vehicle by the manufacturer or the original equipment manufacturer, and later removed from the vehicle and made available for resale or reuse."

      Quoted from the FTC site under the heading "Do I have to use the dealer for repairs and maintenance to keep my warranty in effect?"


      Quote Originally Posted by nbvolks View Post
      Now let's work through what's said at each level, starting with RaceChip.

      Blah, blah, blah

      They explicitly call out modifications generally, but then specifically identify modifications to the ECM systems. Again, they're not dumb, people have been using piggy backs and doing chip tunes long enough for them to specifically identify it as grounds for denying damage resulting from their use.
      I see the term "Electronic Management Systems" Is that what you're referring to, as in?

      "Failures resulting from misuse, abuse,
      negligence, overloading, modifications
      (including the electronic management
      system(s), accidents or racing."

      There are quite a few electronic management systems in the new Volvos. This entry in the Warranty handbook does NOT specify the ECM as you have indicated. If you are referring to another entry in the Warranty handbook please be more specific.


      FAILURES RESULTING FROM does not equate to THE INSTALLATION OF. The original question, one answered by you and a few others with a YES, was WILL INSTALLING THE RACECHIP VOID MY WARRANTY. Let's continue:

      Quote Originally Posted by nbvolks View Post

      So....

      - RaceChip says you're at risk of running afoul of your warranty, should damage result from their product.
      - Volvo says you're at risk of running afoul of your warranty, should damage result from the use of the RaceChip piggy-back.
      - The FTC clarification to the M-M Act is clearly talking about routine maintenance and repairs and the use of aftermarket (non-OEM) parts to do so. Not about modifications above and beyond that routine maintenance and repairs and their associated components.
      RaceChip says you're at RISK
      Volvo says you're at RISK

      Your words.

      AT RISK is not a synonym of WILL

      If you'll read the MM ACT you'll see it covers the ENTIRE warranty and actually states the rules governing the content of a warranty. There is no exclusion from the MM Act for other than maintenance procedures. It covers the ENTIRE warranty.

      I'll stand by my FULL statement: The act of installing a RaceChip will not void your vehicle's warranty. Furthermore it is incumbent upon Volvo to prove the installed accessory actually caused a failure as a condition for warranty denial.

      It's interesting to note that SEMA, you know SEMA right? Specialty Equipment Market Association state on their site that they, among other things, have helped consumers " interact with car dealers, who sometimes try to get away with charging for repairs on a modified vehicle by claiming (wrongly) that specialty accessories have voided its warranty.


      This text is copied from SEMA's "About SEMA" information on their web site:

      "A love for cars, trucks and SUVs is the motivating force behind the Specialty Equipment Market Association (SEMA). This trade association consists of a diverse group of manufacturers, distributors, retailers, publishing companies, auto restorers, street-rod builders, restylers, car clubs, race teams and more.
      SEMA members make, buy, sell and use all kinds of specialty parts and accessories to make vehicles more attractive, more unique, more convenient, faster, safer, more fun and even like-new again."


      Specialty parts are certainly categorized under the definition of "after market parts" as quoted from the FTC web site. Here's that definition once more: "An 'aftermarket' part is a part made by a company other than the vehicle manufacturer or the original equipment manufacturer."
      Now ask yourself this question: Why would SEMA state that "SEMA’s core mission be to ensure policymakers hear a clear, strong, unified voice representing SEMA members and the industry. SEMA has a proven legislative and regulatory program led by a professional staff based in Washington, D.C. that continually monitors and shapes legislation and regulations to benefit SEMA members, the specialty-equipment industry, and auto enthusiasts." if SEMA's interests were not covered by the MM Act? They've furthermore stated " SEMA also has helped numerous consumers interact with car dealers, who sometimes try to get away with charging for repairs on a modified vehicle by claiming (wrongly) that specialty accessories have voided its warranty."

      The MM Act is but one legal basis that SEMA uses to fulfill their stated mission


      https://www.sema.org/

      The MM Act covers any part that the manufacturer declares as warranted.
      Last edited by csiever; 02-07-2020 at 07:54 AM.
      Current Volvo's Owned:
      2019 New V90 R Design T5 Crystal White Metallic With RaceChip GTS
      2014 New XC70 3.2L Flamenco Red Metallic

      Previous Volvo's Owned:
      2016 New XC70 Classic T5 Magic Blue
      2014 New XC90 3.2L Ice White
      2008 New S60 2.5L Barents Blue With IPD ECU Mapping
      1994 New 854 Flamenco Red Metallic
      1994 Used 944T Teal Metallic with Manual Boost Control Valve
      1986 New 764T Graphite Metallic
      1959 Used Pv544 Dark Brown Metallic

    35. #138
      Junior Member
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      781
      Yeah, there's just no way you're actually reading these posts, or your own source material, and legitimately responding the way you are.

      I'm going to go with what someone else suggested and assume you are RaceChip or you're associated with them in some way. The vast majority of your posts on this forum are all very recent and about RaceChip. It was the same story over in the Facebook group. You joined and then just started spamming about RaceChip.

    36. #139
      Junior Member john_hamster's Avatar
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      Bellingham, WA
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      Has anyone on either side of the chip-modification question actually conducted an informal polling of several Volvo dealers’ Service Managers to ascertain what their views on warranty voiding would be if such chip installation would be noted or discovered?
      Lots of references to manuals, legislation, etc., but notably lacking is the Volvo Service personnel perspective...just curious.

    37. #140
      Junior Member pocholin's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by john_hamster View Post
      Has anyone on either side of the chip-modification question actually conducted an informal polling of several Volvo dealers’ Service Managers to ascertain what their views on warranty voiding would be if such chip installation would be noted or discovered?
      Lots of references to manuals, legislation, etc., but notably lacking is the Volvo Service personnel perspective...just curious.
      I think it is safe to say....if your engine, or a component, gets blown because you overboosted the engine, your warranty is voided. That is the risk you take when making any performance modification on a car with warranty. The purpose of this thread was to share the good/bad experience of having Racechip in your car...just so other people interested would have some feedback and make their own decision.

      I still wonder why people think they can keep warranty of their cars when installing a device that will make the engine do something beyond factory boundaries...at the very least, it will prematurely wear your engine out because you're pushing it harder. No questions asked...if the dealer finds your device when making a warranty claim, they will deny the claim and void your warranty. Accept the risk (even if low-risk) or don't put a device like this in your car.

      I wish we could stop this conversation of the warranty ;-)
      2017 V90 CC T6- Luxury pkg with full color paint Maple Brown with blond interior, convenience pkg, B&W, HUD, four-C. Racechip GTS.

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