2005 volvo s40t5 awd 6 speed need some councelling no start, no compression
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    1. #1
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      2005 volvo s40t5 awd 6 speed need some councelling no start, no compression

      Hello gents, looking for some philosophical advice. I have the car, which I bought for cheap. it was sold as a bad head gasket. I got the head off, and tried to repair the car with a planed head and new gasket, timing belt tensioners, etc. I get everything together, and it will crank, but no start. I play around with the timing, etc. then do a compression test.

      Car has almost no compression. like 30psi on one cylinder. So I think someone took it to the bitter end with chocolate milk oil, and the rings are shot. I was careful to line up the timing marks, etc, but that is all academic at this point. it is cetrainly possible I bent the valves, but I have done that before, and heard distinct metallic 'tink' sound every other rpm. the engine cranks very smoothly.

      So what to do? new engine? I don't think this engine is worth rerpairing at this point. Is a '05 t5 s40 awd worth anything in parts? I know nothing about the car's history, and am pretty sure I got burned, and the engine was bad to begine with, but oh well, little cash and time invested...

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    3. #2
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      To me it would depend on what the shape of the rest of the car is. You can get a used engine for $1000-1500 at Car-Parts.com, if you can do the install yourself, and the rest of the car is pretty sound, you might want to go that way. If you did the above work, sounds like you have some wrenching skills, so an engine install may be with in your wheelhouse.

      You can try and part out the car, but that would be a pain. There are guys that will buy dead cars for anywhere from $500 to $1000 depending on the car and what is wrong with it. You can try and sell it on Craigslist as a mechanic's special and probably get a bit more. Again, it depends a lot of the over all condition of the car.

    4. #3
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      Put a little oil in the cylinders and, if the compression shoots up, you have worn rings.

      (Supposedly; I haven't done it myself)
      Last edited by bbrages; 03-20-2019 at 03:52 PM.

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    6. #4
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      Also, I would think if you had severely worn rings that you'd see a badly worn bore when you had the head off.

    7. #5
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      Quote Originally Posted by edognight View Post
      So what to do? new engine? I don't think this engine is worth repairing at this point.
      Just sent you a PM. Might be able to help, depending on your locale.

      BD

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    8. #6
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      I will try the oil trick, thanks for the idea. I know it works on 2 cycle engines, then they start, and as soon as they get hot, they stall...BUT

      I would do a used engine if I can find one. I am researching that right now. (I'm not sure if you can use a b5254t2 with modification), The cylinder bores looked good. I even shot some penetrating lube to test the leak down, and some liquid was there the next morning. They did not appear heavily scratched/worn, but that is no guarantee of anything.

      I might have missed something, but I am pretty sure I got the timing right. the only thing I can think is it is a variable valve timing issue, like it is stuck on advance, but it should still sputter...

      Thanks for the help, guys.

      I marked the crank pulley and cam pullys when the old belt was on, and all the marks are dead on balls perfect. I even tried one tooth forward, one tooth back, this thing ain't popping. It definitely turns over very easily and smoothly. (Like too easily and smoothly)

    9. #7
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      I just did a compression test on cyl 2 and it was zero, then I put in a few tsp of oil and the compression shot up to 70psi, so woe to the moron who buys a t5 with nestle quick for oil, because there is no way to know if the lack of compression is the rings burned up or the head gasket is gone, or in this case, both. Thanks again, I am going to lick my wounds and come up with something.

    10. #8
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      SO, I jusy thought I'd ask, does anyone know of another engine that will fit in this car with modification? LS turbo swap? (yes, this is a joke) any R motors that will fit? I am trying to think outside the box here, just exploring my options.

    11. #9
      Member lookforjoe's Avatar
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      Cheapest to buy a used RNC motor out of any C30/S40/V50. Anything else will not only require mods to mounts, hoses, turbo, etc., but will create a never ending ****storm of issues with the engine management. Better to sell the car & move on than go down thaT PATH.

    12. #10
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      You could possibly grab one with a failed timing belt if you are confident that your head is good.

    13. #11
      Just my .02 - rings are cheap to buy OEM. Get the bores checked and honed and then reassemble. Go with oem or better headbolts upon reinstall - it's not a bad host of issues if any, just take your time and label everything and use tons of lube. Just my .02 cheapest solution to the problem, but also the most work.
      2006 Volvo S40 AWD T5 M66 - Dusty Rusty
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    14. #12
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      Thanks for the advice. I am leaning toward a used engine, because that would solve a whole bunch of issues. And then I would feel the best about selling it. I have done the whole re-bore, re ring route, in the past, but if I miss a detail, I might be screwing someone else. To my thinking, if a used engine goes bad, that is volvo's fault. If I re-ring it, and later find the crank was scarred, or I missed something, I would feel bad. PS I found a t3 motor down the road on car-part.com for 1200$ which sounds reasonable...

      Maybe I'll take the whole thing apart and see what it needs. Crank bearings, rod bearings, oil pump, seals, etc. Make it into one big learning experience...

    15. #13
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      Failed timing belt and a head rebuild sounds like a good idea as well.

    16. #14
      Member lookforjoe's Avatar
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      In your other thread, you said it has zero compression? That is extremely unlikely unless you got the cam timing completely out of whack, or the pistons are ALL broken (never happen). When the head was off, didn't you check the bores for wear & signs of broken rings, etc., and contamination in the old oil you drained? Trying to get a sense of what you actually did before putting the head back on to check condition.

    17. #15
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      First off, thank you for the help. I agree, somethuing seems off. The compression wasn't quite zero. It was between 10-30 for most cylinders. Some were up to 50 ish. I didn't write anything down, or get too specific because I was pretty sure the lower end was gone. I do remember the compression being really low, and then shooting up to 70psi with some oil poured into the cylinder. (What is spec psi, btw?). Battery was charged, and starter seemed to crank fine.

      Today I had some gift card money and went to harbor freight for some chinese junk ( I love HF) leakdown tester. All the cylinders except number five were bad, like 50% or less. (Cyl 5 was in the green, about 20%) I cranked each cylinder over with the leakdown tester set at 15psi and each cyl went thru it's cycles, you could hear the exhaust valves hiss, then the intake, and when on a compression stroke, two of the cylinders never got better than 50%. one never got better than about 70%. I don't know if that is enough to run or not. The timing is dead on the marks, no way it's a tooth off. I have done several timing belts, and this thing looks perfect.

      So, let me say, I WANT to be wrong, I know nothing about volvos specifically. If anyone out there knows of a common mistake I made, or might have made, I am all ears.

      So, conclusions: there seems to be a difference between cylinders. #5 seems good, all the rest are 50% or worse. The valves seem to be working. Tomorrow I am going to pull the head off and see about the valves, but I think it's a new motor for me. Also the motor had a junkyard tag, and the warranty melt marker thing seemed partially melted.

      I would absolutely love it if someone pointed out my stupidity, and I fixed this thing.

    18. #16
      Junior Member chocolater2's Avatar
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      Few questions

      Did you rotate the engine by hand twice when (re)installing the timing belt? How did you hold the cams? Did you pressure test the cylinder head? How did you torque down the cylinder head bolts (also what sequence). Biggest question...did you lock the cams with the special tool from the rear???

      Add some oil to the cyinder and redo the compression test. If it shoots up significantly, its def the ringos.

      edit: looks like you checked for rings. Did you lock your cams as well?
      Last edited by chocolater2; 03-26-2019 at 10:50 PM.

    19. #17
      Member lookforjoe's Avatar
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      Nah, it sounds bad. if the cam timing is correct, and you could hear the leak out through the block vent, then it is most likely the pistons are cracked/ring lands broken. That is about the only failure that could cause that low of a reading. Can't tell for sure unless you drop the pan & push the pistons/ rods out when you have the head back off.

      THing is, I'm no stranger to broken pistons, and I've sripped motors that still ran, even with 5 broken pistons. The last one I did in, I drove 400 miles with 5 broken Wiseco's (can find the pics).

      This earlier set only had two with broken ring lands & detonation melt down.



      Another

      Last edited by lookforjoe; 03-26-2019 at 10:57 PM.

    20. #18
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      Did you adjust the valves or just randomly toss the lifters in?

    21. #19
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      I am going to try and answer all the questions....

      I did adjust the lifters, and they were all within spec, or very close. I measured them with a micrometer, and then ranked them and used a feeler gauge. I forget the specifics, but they were a little tighter on the intakes, and they were good.

      I did rotate the engine over with the timing belt re-installed (I don't know why this would matter).

      I did not have the cylinder head pressure tested. My machine shop said they couldn't do aluminum heads. I was going to spray the runners with fluid and see if any leaked thru once the head is off again.

      New head bolts torqued to factory spec, two passes of torque I forget the specifics, it was Nm and I had to convert...and plus 135 degrees. I followed the sequence.

      I did not lock the cams with the special tool to remove the head. I did line up the cyl 1 at tdc, (the timing marks both on the marks on the cam cover, and the pulley on it's mark.) then I loostened the cam cover (valve cover) and neither cam turned at all, then pop off the timing belt, again, neither cam turned at all, once the cam cover is off, they just pop out. in that phase of rotation, neither cam's lobes are pushing on a valve spring, maybe the exhaust cam, but very little.

      I did this because I was not loostening the pulley bolts, but removing the cams, so I didn't think I needed to lock the cams in place.

      a little recap: This car was very cheap on craigslist, and I knew I was getting a question mark. The oil was chocolate milk, and very thin from head gasket /coolant contamination. So right there, I knew I would be taking a chance by doing the HG, and hoping for the best. I thought either the block was cracked, or the HG was bad, so I replaced everything, had the head planed, and new bolts and gasket. and the thing cranks, but no/very little compression.

      I might as well keep taking it apart, and I will report back what I find. Thanks for all the help. I am almost certain that the rings and cylinders are really gone, because when I do a leakdown test, turning the engine over by hand, on a compression stroke, you can see the compression jump when you turn it, then it stops, and a couple cylinders are about 70%.

    22. #20
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      So you have the tool to hold the cam down when measuring valve clearance?

      You said when the marks are lined up, no cam lobes are pushing on the lifters. That isn't correct.

      Did you remove the cam pulleys at all? Did you rotate the engine at all when the head was off?

      I assume you didn't pin the crank since you didn't lock the cams.

      I bet this is a timing issue on reassembly and you now have bent valves.

    23. #21
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      you are right, the exhaust valves are almost full lift, with the exhaust cam lined up with the timing mark up on cyl 5. I got the head off, and the valves are not bent. I checked a couple and everything is sitting fine. I do not have the valve tool to hold the cam down but I used a clamp, which measured no different than when I pushed the cam down with my hand... I set the head on it's side and the intake valves are letting a little wd40 dribble through, but not much. I am going to take the pistons out tomorrow, and see if there is anything there.

      I did not move the crank, but to my way of thinking, timed up is timed up, all the marks were perfect.

    24. #22
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      Timing mark up on cylinder 5? There are no timing marks that pertain to cylinder 5...

      All exhaust valves are open with the head off? That's not good.
      Last edited by Tech; 03-27-2019 at 09:31 PM.

    25. #23
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      Some things don't make sense. The cam should not be able to press into the valve springs by hand as you describe. No matter what, a couple of valves will be open when the cam is pressed into the head. There should not be any gap between the valve & the seat, esp if the seats were cut/ground when the head was worked. If WD40 can pass with the valve 'closed', then there won't be compression either.

    26. #24
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      Everything you are saying is true, but i simply set one lifter in at a time and measured the gap with a feeler gauge. The cam falls right into place with no effort, because all the other lifters are out. Then thru trial and error, you can find one in spec. Sort of a 'musical lifters' game. It is a lot of work, but it works...

      ALso, with the head on it's side and the intake runners up, all of the intake valves help a significant amount of wd overnight. there was a teeny bit of fluid at first that dribbled thru, maybe because of the pressure of it being sprayed. less than a drop. The valves were not cut or ground, when I had the head out previously.

    27. #25
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      I've done countless heads using the correct tools and procedures and never had a problem. Just sitting the cam in and measuring is not the correct procedure.

    28. #26
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      So, I got the pistons out, and there is moderate water damage on the rings, and the lower mesh oil rings. Some are straight up rusted. It does appear that the engine sat out in the water, rust in the bottom of the oil pan, etc. The cylinder bores seem polished smooth with only a light crasshatch one one cylinder. All the rod bearings look perfect, and the crank spins like a top. I am not really sure if this engine is worth saving, but I am having fun and learning a lot.

      I am going to check the cylinder bore size (just ordered a gauge). I am not sure why the engine wouldn't start, but it is probable that it is the cylinder to ring seal is gone. The compression, and the leakdown does much better numerically when the cylinder has oil in it, and it might be that simple as honeing the cylinder. There are marks and rust rings on the cylinder where the piston had set, possibly with some water damage, or maybe just humidity and time.

      I might risk a re ring and rehone if the cylinder is within spec. I asked a friend who is a very experienced hot rodder, and did some research online. Apparently it is common, that the cylinders lose their texture and do not seal with the rings. This can happen even if the car just sits a long time, and then the car will not start. My friend said he has on a few occasions tried to start a car that has been sitting, and it would not start. But then he put some oil in the cylinders and actually got it to start. I used to think if the rings are there, you are good, but there seems to be more to it than that. This is what 'Avenger 09123' said above. When I first read what he said, I discounted it, but now I think he is right. Last year, I did a 1983 jeep wagoneer, which had been sitting for about 15 years. I was able to get it to run, but it smoked, burnt oil, and ran like piss. It just occurred to me, the rings were almost gone, with no seal. id be surprised if that jeep 360 made 120 hp, and smoked at any rpm over 2000.

      A couple questions. Does anyone know the tolerance for out or round, taper, bore max dimension for 83mm bore engine?
      I can't seem to find rings for this engine, anyone know a good source?

      Thanks for all the input, and help.

    29. #27
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      So after about 20 posts of asking questions, I am ready to answer some. WHo wants to come down the rabbit hole with me?

      I am 75% certain I am right, and then after an engine leakdown test with the engine on the stand, I will be about 90%. So, I will recap...engine 'had a bad head gasket.' I pulled, planed and replaced. Then engine had no compression. (it probabally had no compression before the HG replacement) I did a leakdown and compression test, and the engine failed miserably. 15 psi on some cylinders, and none over 50 dry, then a couple shot up to 70psi wet. Leakdown test ranged from about 30% dowm to about 40%. Bad. Very very bad.

      Get pissed off, pulled engine in a four hour rage of impact guns and flying parts. Get a significant amount of oil in my mouth.

      Upon pulling out the pistons, several rings are stuck in place and severely worn. One ring was so stuck, when I pulled the gap with a fingernail, it completely broke. They should spring out, because the piston rings push out and seal to the cylinder bore, not the piston itself. Ask Mr. Honda. John Ramsbottom.

      SO, I am pretty sure several stuck piston rings, not pushing out on the cly wall is a no start, no compression, no dice. The real question is why are they stuck, and I think I know this as well. This engine shows internal signs of water damage, consistant with sitting in the elements. Some oil rings are water damaged, and some rust in the bottom of the pan. I am betting on a few things...

      New rings, honeing the cylinder walls, and cleaning the poston gaps will bring the leakdown test up to a pass. Then, I am going to get this thing running, and do a huge burnout in front of my house leaving four little black marks.

    30. #28
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      Sometimes piston rings can get stuck due to overheating... I've seen this in small 2-strokes; the piston gets hot enough that it starts to smear aluminum over the ring and that sticks it.

      And sometimes head gaskets blow due to overheating. Wonder if it was overheated?

    31. #29
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      Did you check that the block deck surface is straight? My T5 did a very minor overheat when the lower rad hose failed, and it was still enough to warp the head and block to the edge of the spec.
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    32. #30
      Junior Member chocolater2's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by edognight View Post
      I am going to try and answer all the questions....

      I did adjust the lifters, and they were all within spec, or very close. I measured them with a micrometer, and then ranked them and used a feeler gauge. I forget the specifics, but they were a little tighter on the intakes, and they were good.

      I did rotate the engine over with the timing belt re-installed (I don't know why this would matter).

      I did not have the cylinder head pressure tested. My machine shop said they couldn't do aluminum heads. I was going to spray the runners with fluid and see if any leaked thru once the head is off again.

      New head bolts torqued to factory spec, two passes of torque I forget the specifics, it was Nm and I had to convert...and plus 135 degrees. I followed the sequence.

      I did not lock the cams with the special tool to remove the head. I did line up the cyl 1 at tdc, (the timing marks both on the marks on the cam cover, and the pulley on it's mark.) then I loostened the cam cover (valve cover) and neither cam turned at all, then pop off the timing belt, again, neither cam turned at all, once the cam cover is off, they just pop out. in that phase of rotation, neither cam's lobes are pushing on a valve spring, maybe the exhaust cam, but very little.

      I did this because I was not loostening the pulley bolts, but removing the cams, so I didn't think I needed to lock the cams in place.

      a little recap: This car was very cheap on craigslist, and I knew I was getting a question mark. The oil was chocolate milk, and very thin from head gasket /coolant contamination. So right there, I knew I would be taking a chance by doing the HG, and hoping for the best. I thought either the block was cracked, or the HG was bad, so I replaced everything, had the head planed, and new bolts and gasket. and the thing cranks, but no/very little compression.

      I might as well keep taking it apart, and I will report back what I find. Thanks for all the help. I am almost certain that the rings and cylinders are really gone, because when I do a leakdown test, turning the engine over by hand, on a compression stroke, you can see the compression jump when you turn it, then it stops, and a couple cylinders are about 70%.
      Ding ding gotta lock the rear camm-o's. If the valves are not bent, thank the ****ing gods. I plan on uploading a "how to" cylinder head guide soon.

      You need to buy that tool and lock the cams from the rear. Get back to the point to where the valve cover is off. Remove your cams. Remove the rotor on the back of the cam (not the sprocket! The other side...) its a torx screw.

      GET THE IMPACT TORX T30. DO NOT USE NORMAL BITS! They'll break and/or cause you to strip the screws!

      Remove the rotors, youll see slots. Youll need to line those up with the tool. The tool fits on one way, should be flush around since the line sits higher on one and lower on the other (The slot is slightly higher than halfway up the circle on one, and slightly lower than halfway down the circle on the other).

      Get the cams at the correct position with the tool. Tighten tool/valve cover down in the correct sequence. The tool will come with a valve cover draw down tool to make life so much f***ing easier....

      Now you'll want to adjust the front sprocket on the VVT cams. Yours may be one or both...

      (Forgot to mention, you'll need to have the crankshaft locked with the holding tool. No, you can't cheat...unless you know what you're doing).

      Good luck.

      PS: You don't rotate the engine while performing a leakdown test. You only get the cylinder at TDC and then pressurize the cylinder and check the reading.....
      Last edited by chocolater2; 04-15-2019 at 12:26 PM.

    33. #31
      Junior Member chocolater2's Avatar
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      Regardless of loosening the pulley bolts, you need to lock the cams. Ignore ANYONE who says otherwise because they're DEAD WRONG! You loosen the pulley bolts afterwards (on VVT cams, so either one or both) in order to realign the timing mark. (You can also make your own timing mark...**).

      ** Though some cams are spring loaded. This may be older volvos, don't know what years or models. I know mine wasn't lol.

    34. #32
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      OK, I have been busy rehabbing my boat, rebuilding the ford 302 which is an easy job compared to this volvo. the thing screams on the water.

      I have the engine out and on a stand. It still fails a leakdown test, though the numbers are better since i honed the cyls and re-ringed it. The problem now is obvious, the valves are not holding any pressure. The air squirts past them symmetrically all around the valve, both intake and exhause. Some are better than others. But all pretty bad.

      Based on the damage to this engine, I am confident it was sitting in a junkyard, and had severe water damage, a lot of it largely invisible. If I knew that from the get-go, it would have been much easier to fix everything.

      So, I am pretty sure, the valves are not seating in the head properly. I am going to lap them in with some grinding compound, (which I should have done any way) and see If I can get a cylinder to pass a leakdown test, (maybe just buy some new valves after that) if not, it is gettine parted out.

      Thanks for your continued involvement in my backyard half a$$ed project.

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