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    1. #1
      Member BigBang's Avatar
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      Roof racks and ESP

      With the original roof racks and the roof box (Thule Motion XT) , is there a change in the operating mode of the ESP system due to the raised center of gravity of the vehicle?
      I not found this information anywhere
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    3. #2
      Member volvocu's Avatar
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      Esp should work as it should regardless of the car’s condition, it will intervene according to the parameters set into it such as steering angle vs. Slide/yaw...

    4. #3
      Member BigBang's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by volvocu View Post
      Esp should work as it should regardless of the car’s condition, it will intervene according to the parameters set into it such as steering angle vs. Slide/yaw...
      Thanks for the answer, I know how the ESP works, but how ESP can detect that it has a cargo box on the roof
      There must be some sensor that gives this information
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    6. #4
      Junior Member Kranvagn's Avatar
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      Never heard of such a thing for any manufacturer.
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    7. #5
      Member BigBang's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Kranvagn View Post
      Never heard of such a thing for any manufacturer.
      Audi uses it in its Q models since 2009


      Roof Rack Detection System

      The roof rack detection system in the Audi Q5 is directly linked to the Electronic Stabilization Program (ESP®) control unit. When the crossbars are installed, a signal is sent that adjusts driving-dynamic relevant parameters according to the center of gravity. When the crossbars are not installed, the ESP® program adjusts dynamics to allow for more enthusiastic driving.
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    8. #6
      Member BigBang's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by p07r0457 View Post
      There are accelerometers in the vehicle. These will detect the 'lean' of the vehicle -- which is affected by passengers and cargo.
      If it can be on the weight of the vehicle, but how it will determine the height, the height is a problem. A simple gravity center is a problem that accelerometers in the vehicle can not determine ie detect
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    9. #7
      Member BigBang's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by p07r0457 View Post
      Despite the overall HEIGHT and WEIGHT of the vehicle+box+plate being the SAME, the vehicle will handle differently between the two tests.

      Center of gravity matters. Height does not matter, directly. Height only matters in that it CAN affect center of gravity.
      Weight, height and center of gravity are very important, put 100 kg in the inside vehicle and put 100 in the box at the top of the roof - It's not the same

      I'll try to explain this way : Place around your belt 3 kg and try running and turn left and right and try to lean back and forth.
      Then put a weight of 3kg on your head and repeat all the above actions
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    10. #8
      Member BigBang's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by p07r0457 View Post
      You just proved my point. ROFL.
      Let's go back to my original question
      Your answer " accelerometers" is not correct
      There is also a level sensor, which is used for vehicle parameters
      Last edited by BigBang; 04-08-2019 at 01:51 PM.
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    11. #9
      Member BigBang's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by p07r0457 View Post
      Ugh, you're either an epic troll, or incredibly dense. This forums will be better without you. Add me to the (assumed long) list of people who have finally blocked you.
      An excellent answer, it's better not to write anything than answers that make no sense

      The system in car calculate approximately how many passengers or cargo has inside the car, because uses its information from sensors leveling contained in the suspension system + acceleration sensor
      All new cars have an acceleration sensor (I mean more expensive cars), but this sensor cannot recognize if there is a roof box

      Just for you


      Last edited by BigBang; 04-08-2019 at 04:11 PM.
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    12. #10
      Member satrya's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by BigBang View Post
      The system in car calculate approximately how many passengers or cargo has inside the car, because uses its information from sensors leveling contained in the suspension system + acceleration sensor
      My guess is that the SPA volvos currently don't have this measurement. From the ESP control point of view, one tunes its controller differently with different sets of measurements. If a controller manages a degree of freedom that is affected by a certain measurement, then the absence or presence of this measurement affects how the controller decides how much it relies on its control model plus available measurements vs all that plus the extra measurement. Generally, extra measurement may or may not improve the performance and safety of the system under various conditions.

      Given the relatively fast sample time of the ESP control system's data acquisition, computation, and action, relative to the bandwidth of the mass it is trying to stabilize, I'm not sure if there is an appreciable pragmatic difference.
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    13. #11
      Junior Member Torsen's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by BigBang View Post
      If I understand correctly from Audi's spec/diagram - the "feature" is triggered by mounting the standard cross bars- ie. even without a box on, or with an empty box- or with a fully laden (100kg) box- this "advanced" system will raise the vehicle's center of gravity. It would be a laughable gimmick if it didn't negatively affect the vehicle's dynamics by incorrectly assuming the change in the center of gravity..

    14. #12
      Member BigBang's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Torsen View Post
      If I understand correctly from Audi's spec/diagram - the "feature" is triggered by mounting the standard cross bars- ie. even without a box on, or with an empty box- or with a fully laden (100kg) box- this "advanced" system will raise the vehicle's center of gravity. It would be a laughable gimmick if it didn't negatively affect the vehicle's dynamics by incorrectly assuming the change in the center of gravity..
      Which fool mounts the crossbar and puts an empty roof box to ride around with that

      If you want to drive with cross bars, simply remove the magnet , that's so simple
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    15. #13
      Member BigBang's Avatar
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      Oh, I see an expert, I'm still waiting for an explanation how the accelerator sensor recognizes if there is a roof box
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      Quote Originally Posted by BigBang View Post
      Oh, I see an expert, I'm still waiting for an explanation how the accelerator sensor recognizes if there is a roof box
      Accelerometers and accelerator sensors are different things. Accelerometers measure things like pitch, roll, and yaw rates, and are most definitely used in the stability control system. When it comes to measuring roll rate, the onboard computers don't care where the CG is. It is simply too variable and quite literally changes as you drive (fuel burn). Thus, the stability control system only cares about the rate at which the vehicle is rolling, yawing, etc... and then it seeks to correct that. As for the Audi system, when it detects load bars, it reverts to an ultra conservative setting, thus allowing lower roll rates prior to intervention. Without knowing the parameters and baselines for each company's systems it would be impossible to say which was "safer" as Volvo's baseline could be more conservative than Audi's from the beginning.

    17. #15
      Member satrya's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by mdiiulio View Post
      Without knowing the parameters and baselines for each company's systems it would be impossible to say which was "safer" as Volvo's baseline could be more conservative than Audi's from the beginning.
      +1
      Not to mention other factors that also affect the outcome like structural differences (e.g. how low the engine block is relative to the ground, affecting how low the roll center is), spring rate, rotational inertia, etc., that may be different enough between two different vehicles.
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    18. #16
      Junior Member Torsen's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by BigBang View Post
      Which fool mounts the crossbar and puts an empty roof box to ride around with that

      If you want to drive with cross bars, simply remove the magnet , that's so simple
      Ofcourse. Silly me. I want the car to always adjust the center of gravity for the full weight (100kg) of the roof rack. Because only fools drive with less than 100kg on the roof rack.

    19. #17
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      Quote Originally Posted by Torsen View Post
      Ofcourse. Silly me. I want the car to always adjust the center of gravity for the full weight (100kg) of the roof rack. Because only fools drive with less than 100kg on the roof rack.
      I would be that fool. I use the roof bars to transport bikes as well as an empty roofbox (one way) usually. Rarely are the crossbars off the car.

      Now I’m second guessing my purchase. Should have bought a Q Series.



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      That Q5 is soooo much better. Anyone want to buy my 2018 XC60? Its super unsafe and the worst. I used to think it was awesome, but I have now seen the light.

    21. #19
      Member BigBang's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Torsen View Post
      Ofcourse. Silly me. I want the car to always adjust the center of gravity for the full weight (100kg) of the roof rack. Because only fools drive with less than 100kg on the roof rack.
      Of course the Audi engineers are stupid, so Volvo used 20 years of Audi's engines

      Audi does not make idiotic solutions: access the box with the fuses front under passenger compartment, you need to kneel down to replace the fuse,
      In the back of the car, you need to disassemble half the luggage compartment to reach the fuse.

      Audi has just made ahead solution with the left and right side of the dashboard - the cover that you remove and you have access to the fuses. The same solution and back
      In Audi you can replace the SIM card form seat at the driver's or passenger's seat, at Volvo you have to kneel and look under the passenger compartment

      In Audi, you can remove head restraints if you have a need, you can use several types of carriers for tablets, in Volvo impossible

      Audi does not create bumpers where parts fall out

      Audi does not make the internal plastic door trim on which white spots constantly appear

      And....and.....and


      And that's why VW Group ( Audi, Bentley, Bugatti, Lamborghini, Porsche, SEAT, Škoda and Volkswagen) the largest car manufacturer, recognized by customers all over the world
      Only 100 production facilities across 27 countries with 11,018,000 cars in (2018)
      Audi 11 production facilities in 9 countries 1,879,840 car in 2018


      Remove this magnet and then drive the next 10 years with bars on roof with standard ESP
      Audi has smart and simple solutions, unlike Volvo

      Last edited by BigBang; 04-10-2019 at 05:29 PM.
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    22. #20
      Member BigBang's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by sometallguy View Post
      That Q5 is soooo much better. Anyone want to buy my 2018 XC60? Its super unsafe and the worst. I used to think it was awesome, but I have now seen the light.
      Mistakes are made in life, VOLVO IS MY BIGGEST MISTAKES IN LIFE
      Are you happy now
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    23. #21
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      No I'm not. I now hate my car, thanks to the information you have given me.

      Are you happy now?

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    24. #22
      Member BigBang's Avatar
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      No one has made the perfect car in the world, but in the category of expensive cars so many problems and stupid solutions is really a lot
      For more than a year, Volvo's programmers are working to solve the problem, is that normal for you?
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    25. #23
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      Quote Originally Posted by BigBang View Post
      With the original roof racks and the roof box (Thule Motion XT) , is there a change in the operating mode of the ESP system due to the raised center of gravity of the vehicle?
      I not found this information anywhere
      It's likely that the added mass on the roof will have only minimal impact on the handling characteristics of such a large/heavy car. It is limited to 100Kg I think anyway.

      Sure, Audi went crazy and decided to add in a calculation based on roof racks being used. Great. Does any other manufacturer do that? Is there proven evidence it helps?

      Just because Audi went down some rabbit hole for a 2% difference is some variable doesn't mean that it's worth it or that it matters much.

      Most of the digital systems shouldn't care too much about where the weight of the car is.
      Things like vehicle yaw/pitch/roll (which are measured by several accelerometers) may be affected by the additional weight (minimally), but the final result as measured by the sensor, is still accurate.

      Or to put it another way... an accelerometer in a Miata or school bus, still measures the final resultant force on the whole system. The measured value may vary, but it's still accurate as a measure of the forces acting on the overall system it's physically attached to.

      Even things like the roll-over prevention system shouldn't much care about the weight on the roof. Yes, it's more likely to roll with a higher center of gravity, but if the sensor is looking for X% of movement in X plane as an indication to a roll-over event, that reading won't be changed by the mass of the vehicle.

      I'm sure there's a slight difference, mostly due to the added wind resistance I'd guess, but it's not really something I'd worry about, especially as you should be driving more slowly and careful with a roof-mounted load regardless.
      Last edited by shammyh; 04-11-2019 at 12:10 PM.
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    26. #24
      Junior Member jre's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by mdiiulio View Post
      Accelerometers and accelerator sensors are different things. Accelerometers measure things like pitch, roll, and yaw rates, and are most definitely used in the stability control system. When it comes to measuring roll rate, the onboard computers don't care where the CG is. It is simply too variable and quite literally changes as you drive (fuel burn). Thus, the stability control system only cares about the rate at which the vehicle is rolling, yawing, etc... and then it seeks to correct that. As for the Audi system, when it detects load bars, it reverts to an ultra conservative setting, thus allowing lower roll rates prior to intervention. Without knowing the parameters and baselines for each company's systems it would be impossible to say which was "safer" as Volvo's baseline could be more conservative than Audi's from the beginning.
      Nicely done, I'd say this is spot on. The answer to the original post is - no. /thread
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    27. #25
      Quote Originally Posted by BigBang View Post
      Oh, I see an expert, I'm still waiting for an explanation how the accelerator sensor recognizes if there is a roof box
      How does the Audi one recognize the weight of the roof box of it is loaded?
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    28. #26
      Member volvocu's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by BigBang View Post
      Quote Originally Posted by volvocu View Post
      Esp should work as it should regardless of the car’s condition, it will intervene according to the parameters set into it such as steering angle vs. Slide/yaw...
      Thanks for the answer, I know how the ESP works, but how ESP can detect that it has a cargo box on the roof
      There must be some sensor that gives this information
      Why should it detect a roof box?! Say the trunk is full of heavy stuff, so the weight balance will shift towards the rear, yet esp will intervene as it should despite the altered dynamics

    29. #27
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      I think we all are wrong on this...
      such system only exists to enable Audi to sell the cross bars with «magnets» 2 or 3 times de price of the regular ones. No other use.

      Maybe OP can confirm if he has bought those bars on his famous Q5?
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    30. #28
      Member BigBang's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by volvocu View Post
      Why should it detect a roof box?! Say the trunk is full of heavy stuff, so the weight balance will shift towards the rear, yet esp will intervene as it should despite the altered dynamics
      The weight in the trunk and on the roof are two different aspects, the height is very important
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    31. #29
      Member BigBang's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by le_cyclope View Post
      I think we all are wrong on this...
      such system only exists to enable Audi to sell the cross bars with «magnets» 2 or 3 times de price of the regular ones. No other use.

      Maybe OP can confirm if he has bought those bars on his famous Q5?
      Roof racks for the model 2009-2016 were part of the serial equipment of all models, now it's only for the SQ5 series and for others model Q5 is extras equipment


      The price is 258 EUR in Germany or 218 EUR without tax , it's not 3-4 times as expensive as you write, price for Volvo is 230 EUR

      Yes, I bought it for the new Q5 2018, and in 2010 I got it as standard equipment


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      Last edited by BigBang; 04-13-2019 at 12:22 PM.
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