Subframe insert or bushing replacment?
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    1. #1
      Junior Member black944 turbo's Avatar
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      Subframe insert or bushing replacment?

      My R has the inserts already installed and I also have a new set of inserts on my shelf. I don't know how old the inserts are that are currently in the car, do they wear out and will putting the new inserts in help with my steering response? Should I bite the bullet and buy new bushings?

      The steering is very quick, but has very little feedback, is this indicative of the car, worn subframe bushings or just plane normal? I love the car, but really want better feel etc...

      Any write ups on how to install new bushings and do people recommend solid or OE bushings? I don't want a lot more NVH then it already has.
      2005 V70R M66, Titanium-Gobi

      1986 944 Turbo, Black-Tan

      Past; 940t wagon, 940, 960 wagon, 240 wagon and several others in the family.

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    3. #2
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      Go with Kaplhenke Racing Delrin bushings. I can't comment on NVH since I put a poly lower torque mount on at the same time so that added a lot of vibration but I've heard others mention that the vibration is minimal with just the bushings.
      2007 V70R GT Electric Silver/Nordkap
      2005 XC70 It's got HIDs yo.
      2006 S60R Black Sapphire M66 - Resurrected from the dead and sold

    4. #3
      Junior Member Mecon07's Avatar
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      I can only offer my experience that the poly inserts definitely improved steering response by a small margin over the old bushings alone. It was a noticeable, but subtle, change. They also increased NVH from the road. I'd say that effect was more apparent than the improvement in steering sharpness.
      I decided to go with the inserts instead of replacing the whole bushing because I've done similar jobs before and it's a pain to cut out the old bushings and press in the new ones. Wasn't worth it for me.

      As far as poly wearing out, well it doesnt. Those inserts will probably outlast the rest of the car, so changing them for new ones probably wont do anything.
      2007 S60R M66 - Black/Nordkap - 185k - Snabb intake, Forge CBV. iPD anti-roll bars. Snabb FMIC soon to come.

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    6. #4
      Junior Member black944 turbo's Avatar
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      Would I be better off just putting new OEM bushing in?

      Thanks so much.
      2005 V70R M66, Titanium-Gobi

      1986 944 Turbo, Black-Tan

      Past; 940t wagon, 940, 960 wagon, 240 wagon and several others in the family.

    7. #5
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      Have delrin bushings up front. Nvh is there, but not bad. New oem is probably the way to go if you plan on replacing every 80-100k miles

    8. #6
      Junior Member JeremyR's Avatar
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      Bob villa mod
      The cheapest and best mod you can do to improve front end feel with stock setup. Does improve steering feel.. but in general these cars, i dont care what you put on it, are like that...

      Every little bit helps of course fractionally. All the way down to alignment settings. I did delrin bishings and its the only way. Solidifys the front more over bumps and some turning inprovement taking the wallo out of the subframe which the steering rack is mounted to, seperate from the unibody. Inserts are a bandaid that offer mininal improvement, helps reduce wear on stock bushings when new. Or shores up worn bushings.

      I'm a mechanic and its sad when most other cars can damn near corner as well when i drive them, maybe not to the limit but in the steering feel at the same speeds on corners. Some basic **** boxes have better turn in and easier cornering feel at speed.
      Last edited by JeremyR; 04-25-2019 at 12:55 AM.
      2005 S60R | DRag 18" DR34, ET40 (838) | 235 Thunderer Mach IV 302 | Delrin | PowerStop | Eibach | Fixed/replaced everything at my shop, just rolled 185k, like new. Original engine, trans, & drivetrain.

    9. #7
      Junior Member black944 turbo's Avatar
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      Thank you all for your insight, are there any good write ups on how to get this done. I have read that the subframe can stay in the car.
      2005 V70R M66, Titanium-Gobi

      1986 944 Turbo, Black-Tan

      Past; 940t wagon, 940, 960 wagon, 240 wagon and several others in the family.

    10. #8
      Junior Member JeremyR's Avatar
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      Tires also play a role in steering feedback. And I think with the car you may be detecting its tendancy to understeer also.

      The bushings can be quite a job but the right tools and knowledge make it much easier. Torching bushings out is not the way!! Lol. The things are just plastic to begin with.

      I did mine on the car, on a lift. Quick run down.. Support the engine with a jack, and the subframe with jacks (not stands), loosen all bolts some but not all the way, then enough to get movement to tilt one side down when its time. Drop one corner down enough to work with. I used an air hammer to blast the old ones out like popping bottles. Admittedly there is a certain technique you have to figure out. Sometimes they will pop with just a pry bar. Only one of them gave me fits for like a half hour or more of struggle with air hammer ect. The Delrin bushings slide right in. Then raise frame tighten evenly in passes starting passenger side rear. You just dont want it way crooked when it gets tight they should all be snugged

      There is a write up in the forums, delrin in the title I believe. The write up is a little off on practices i would use but gives an idea how its done and the biggest tips.. I did take some video of changing mine that i never uploaded to youtube, I may.. bad thing is i didn't record all the good parts of removing them.

      The bob villa mod is tensioning the upper engine support bar to simulate a strut brace. I'd almost say its a more noticable difference than the delrin bushings.. Especially considering the ease and cost. 4 big washers is all you need.

      Oh wait the big question, I'm guessing (Do) you have Michelin's on the car?
      What kind of tires?
      Last edited by JeremyR; 04-25-2019 at 01:12 AM.
      2005 S60R | DRag 18" DR34, ET40 (838) | 235 Thunderer Mach IV 302 | Delrin | PowerStop | Eibach | Fixed/replaced everything at my shop, just rolled 185k, like new. Original engine, trans, & drivetrain.

    11. #9
      Junior Member black944 turbo's Avatar
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      I have rather new (sub3k mile) Michelin pilot sport as3+.

      Can you elaborate on the bob vila trick? I have never heard of this before.
      2005 V70R M66, Titanium-Gobi

      1986 944 Turbo, Black-Tan

      Past; 940t wagon, 940, 960 wagon, 240 wagon and several others in the family.

    12. #10
      Junior Member JeremyR's Avatar
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      Bob villa mod link, https://forums.swedespeed.com/showth...t-brace-mounts

      That gives you an idea. No need to remove the mount or cut it like in that thread.. Just use a washer that fits over the center sleeve of the bushing and is thick enough to contact when tight.

      I would run those ps3 at a minimum of 40psi maybe up to 44+. Play with the air pressure. My R had 2 brand new Michelins when I bought it; I took them off right away. Michelin's have extremely soft sidewall and beads with no backbone. I drive too hard for that nonsense. I like to corner at the limit, I cant have a flexible tire.

      The pilot sports are better; you cant pull the beads straight out of the tire like with the ps3 & other Michelin's - but I still don't like them. Being in the business I've examined near every kind of tire. Michelin's are so weak and flimsy that it blows my mind. They are the only tires that I can crush in half with my bare hands... Reminds me of a drag tire..
      Last edited by JeremyR; 04-30-2019 at 08:33 AM.
      2005 S60R | DRag 18" DR34, ET40 (838) | 235 Thunderer Mach IV 302 | Delrin | PowerStop | Eibach | Fixed/replaced everything at my shop, just rolled 185k, like new. Original engine, trans, & drivetrain.

    13. #11
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      I'm running Delrin, as well as all powerflex and IPD sways, as well as BC Racing DR series coilovers
      Front end feels nice enough now, so I'm not sure I'd feel any real benefit to beefing up the brace, but I'm happy to hear other peoples experiences.
      Last edited by Gonadz; 04-30-2019 at 11:47 PM.

    14. #12
      Junior Member JeremyR's Avatar
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      No man, very noticable difference with bob villa mod, ala 2 appropriate sized washers, or the strut brace tensioning kit that powerflex makes but the washers alone are good enough. The kit is kind of a waste imo.

      If your poly on the engine mount then you will feel the engine more but the steering feel is much better in the corners. It can be removed easily.
      Last edited by JeremyR; 05-08-2019 at 08:09 AM.
      2005 S60R | DRag 18" DR34, ET40 (838) | 235 Thunderer Mach IV 302 | Delrin | PowerStop | Eibach | Fixed/replaced everything at my shop, just rolled 185k, like new. Original engine, trans, & drivetrain.

    15. #13
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      Quote Originally Posted by JeremyR View Post
      Bob villa mod link, https://forums.swedespeed.com/showth...t-brace-mounts

      That gives you an idea. No need to remove the mount or cut it like in that thread.. Just use a washer that fits over the center sleeve of the bushing and is thick enough to contact when tight.

      I would run those ps3 at a minimum of 40psi maybe up to 44+. Play with the air pressure. My R had 2 brand new Michelins when I bought it; I took them off right away. Michelin's have extremely soft sidewall and beads with no backbone. I drive too hard for that nonsense. I like to corner at the limit, I cant have a flexible tire.

      The pilot sports are better; you cant pull the beads straight out of the tire like with the ps3 & other Michelin's - but I still don't like them. Being in the business I've examined near every kind of tire. Michelin's are so weak and flimsy that it blows my mind. They are the only tires that I can crush in half with my bare hands... Reminds me of a drag tire..
      Michelins usually rate highest of all tires like here. Using bare hands as a way to compare tire is fallacy at best.
      https://www.caranddriver.com/feature...-test-feature/

    16. #14
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      Quote Originally Posted by JeremyR View Post
      I would run those ps3 at a minimum of 40psi maybe up to 44+. Play with the air pressure. My R had 2 brand new Michelins when I bought it; I took them off right away. Michelin's have extremely soft sidewall and beads with no backbone. I drive too hard for that nonsense. I like to corner at the limit, I cant have a flexible tire.

      The pilot sports are better; you cant pull the beads straight out of the tire like with the ps3 & other Michelin's - but I still don't like them. Being in the business I've examined near every kind of tire. Michelin's are so weak and flimsy that it blows my mind. They are the only tires that I can crush in half with my bare hands... Reminds me of a drag tire..
      Totally depends on the tire- you can't generalize sidewall stiffness by brand. The PS3 is a Pilot Sport 3, so unless you're talking about the original Pilot Sport, the PS2, PS3, PS4S are all generations of the same line of tire. The original Pilot Sport is quite old, way out of production- they were standard on my M Coupe, M5 and the M3 back in 2001.

      If you're talking about soft sidewalls, the Pirelli P Zero Rosso that came OE on our cars as delivered is one of the worst- very soft sidewall.

    17. #15
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      Black944, did you end up going with the delrin subframe bushings? Iím looking at doing it to my VR, but have a newborn Iíd rather not shake the barf out of if the vibration is too much.


      2007 V70R Ti Grey Nordkap GT, 2008 C30R-Design Black M66
      2008 C30 R-Design MT Black
      2007 V70R GT Ti Grey Nordkap

    18. #16
      Junior Member black944 turbo's Avatar
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      No, I have not done it yet. I am not sure what I am going to do if anything. I would like a bit more feedback, but am concerned with vibration more than the feedback. I bought some washers for the Bob Vila mod, but never installed them.
      2005 V70R M66, Titanium-Gobi

      1986 944 Turbo, Black-Tan

      Past; 940t wagon, 940, 960 wagon, 240 wagon and several others in the family.

    19. #17
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      Quote Originally Posted by One T Scot View Post
      Black944, did you end up going with the delrin subframe bushings? Iím looking at doing it to my VR, but have a newborn Iíd rather not shake the barf out of if the vibration is too much.


      2007 V70R Ti Grey Nordkap GT, 2008 C30R-Design Black M66
      The vibration is really quite mild. You aren't going to make anyone sick with it.

      Ever heard the story 'Princess and the Pea'? Well that's my wife to a T, and she didn't even notice a difference, I did, though I was looking for it.

    20. #18
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      I didn't notice any vibration when I added the subframe bushings. I got vibrations with the poly lower and upper torque arms. If you are worried about shaking the baby do not put IPD track sway bars in. They really stiffen up the ride.

      GLM
      2005 V70R Black Sapphire/Gobi - IPD sway bars, IPD downpipe, Mototec / EuroSport Tuning Sport Edition Cat-Back, Monroe 4C struts, poly subframe bushings, IPD Adjustable Toe Bars, Ultra Racing Lower Rear Brace, do88 intercooler, do88 lower intercooler pipe, raceS60R turbo intake pipe, Forge CBV, Hilton Stage 2 Tune

    21. #19
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      I did everything all at once - kind of a 'while we're in there' approach
      So while I can't give a before vs after comparison of each component (powerflex, Delrin bushes, IPD sways) I can attest to it now feeling properly solid with excellent steering feedback.

      I still have the IPD inserts which I bought and never used, but my question is why use them - the objective is to take out the 'squidgeyness' they engineered into the P2 presumably for comfort.
      I'm prepared to trade that for precision and feel - which I got, and with the TW80 I can't say I've noticed vibration as an issue.

    22. #20
      Senior Member ScottishBrick's Avatar
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      For those who want an in between option, the XC90 subframe bushings are stuffer than the original ones to the s60/v70 and are relatively inexpensive. More noticeable than the poly inserts but with less nvh than delrin.
      2003 V70 T5 - Mystic/Graphite - M56LK - 206k - K24/Greens/Do88/Quaife/SMF/P2R Clutch/DW300C/H&R/Bilstein TC/316mm & 308mm Brakes - SteveO Tuned
      1999 V70 T5 - Pewter/R Graphite & Alcantara - AW42 - 299k - Daily/Work Wagon
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    23. #21
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      Quote Originally Posted by glm409 View Post
      I didn't notice any vibration when I added the subframe bushings. I got vibrations with the poly lower and upper torque arms. If you are worried about shaking the baby do not put IPD track sway bars in. They really stiffen up the ride.

      GLM
      My ipd sways came in Saturday, so what kind of vibration/harshness are we talking about? The bushings are toast front and back, so Iíve got to change them out any way. I already have the ipd upper engine mount and transmission torque mounts installed and the vibration from those is no big deal. Youíve made the case for me for going ahead with the subframe bushings.


      2007 V70R Ti Grey Nordkap GT, 2008 C30R-Design Black M66
      2008 C30 R-Design MT Black
      2007 V70R GT Ti Grey Nordkap

    24. #22
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      Quote Originally Posted by One T Scot View Post
      My ipd sways came in Saturday, so what kind of vibration/harshness are we talking about?


      2007 V70R Ti Grey Nordkap GT, 2008 C30R-Design Black M66
      Once I installed the IPD sway bars (front and rear) the ride is closer to the "Advanced" setting before I did the install. I now only use the "Advanced setting" if I'm on something very smooth. My wife hates to ride in the caR because it is such a stiff ride. She accuses it of being a stiffer ride than my old Lotus Turbo Esprit. I don't think it is that extreme, but it is pretty stiff. I pretty much always drive in comfort mode now. I like the change, my wife doesn't. The day I installed them I had to make an emergency lane change because the truck in front of me lost its load. I yanked the wheel as hard as I could to switch lanes at close to 70 mph and the car reacted perfectly.

      GLM
      2005 V70R Black Sapphire/Gobi - IPD sway bars, IPD downpipe, Mototec / EuroSport Tuning Sport Edition Cat-Back, Monroe 4C struts, poly subframe bushings, IPD Adjustable Toe Bars, Ultra Racing Lower Rear Brace, do88 intercooler, do88 lower intercooler pipe, raceS60R turbo intake pipe, Forge CBV, Hilton Stage 2 Tune

    25. #23
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      Quote Originally Posted by glm409 View Post
      Once I installed the IPD sway bars (front and rear) the ride is closer to the "Advanced" setting before I did the install. I now only use the "Advanced setting" if I'm on something very smooth. My wife hates to ride in the caR because it is such a stiff ride. She accuses it of being a stiffer ride than my old Lotus Turbo Esprit. I don't think it is that extreme, but it is pretty stiff. I pretty much always drive in comfort mode now. I like the change, my wife doesn't. The day I installed them I had to make an emergency lane change because the truck in front of me lost its load. I yanked the wheel as hard as I could to switch lanes at close to 70 mph and the car reacted perfectly.

      GLM
      So comfort is closer to sport, sport to advanced, and advanced to super stiff?


      2007 V70R Ti Grey Nordkap GT, 2008 C30R-Design Black M66
      2008 C30 R-Design MT Black
      2007 V70R GT Ti Grey Nordkap

    26. #24
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      Yes
      2005 V70R Black Sapphire/Gobi - IPD sway bars, IPD downpipe, Mototec / EuroSport Tuning Sport Edition Cat-Back, Monroe 4C struts, poly subframe bushings, IPD Adjustable Toe Bars, Ultra Racing Lower Rear Brace, do88 intercooler, do88 lower intercooler pipe, raceS60R turbo intake pipe, Forge CBV, Hilton Stage 2 Tune

    27. #25
      Member -ForceFed-'s Avatar
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      Didnít feel like it was necessary to start a new thread, but regarding those that have installed the IPD inserts. Anyone else unable to merely press them in by hand like the IPD video shows?

      Not only do they not go in very easy, but I tried to start them by hand, then use the bolt and plate washer to slowly press them in. Only to get stuck, and require prying them out as I didnít want to proceed any further.

      Not sure if thatís just a sign of worn bushings as if they are mushroomed our so to speak, or if these are just a ridiculously tight batch of inserts.

      Im willing to try again. Merely ran out of time so pulled it out and didnít try another, but my experience wasnít the cake walk that the video shows lol. I donít mind taking my rotary tool to shave em down a hair, was just curious if Iím the only one.
      Current: B9 SQ5 | P2 V70R
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    28. #26
      Junior Member lolvos60R's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by -ForceFed- View Post
      Didnít feel like it was necessary to start a new thread, but regarding those that have installed the IPD inserts. Anyone else unable to merely press them in by hand like the IPD video shows?

      Not only do they not go in very easy, but I tried to start them by hand, then use the bolt and plate washer to slowly press them in. Only to get stuck, and require prying them out as I didnít want to proceed any further.

      Not sure if thatís just a sign of worn bushings as if they are mushroomed our so to speak, or if these are just a ridiculously tight batch of inserts.

      Im willing to try again. Merely ran out of time so pulled it out and didnít try another, but my experience wasnít the cake walk that the video shows lol. I donít mind taking my rotary tool to shave em down a hair, was just curious if Iím the only one.
      I know when I did mine years ago I just lubed the ever living chit out of the poly and bushing and was able to get them in with some force. They will go in. Be patient. Just for reference my sub frame knock as come back with those installed and will be going to derlin subframe mount here shortly.


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      05 sr sapphire/nordkap, three pedal arrangement -Contrast Works stg1 18psi w/ 4c map switching -Custom 3" intake pipe w/ stock air box mahle filter -dw 300c fuel pump welded A.G. Bob villa mod PPS: Poly front control arm bushings -poly torque mount-poly subframe inserts Powerflex: race #12/street #5,8,13 Ipd toe bars BC coil overs EST D.P. catted w/ Viva performance cat back exhaust Goodyear eagle f1 asymmetric 2 235/40-18 and of course PEGS!!!

    29. #27
      Member HunterBD's Avatar
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      Mine took a little bit of time to get in. Be patient. Worth the effort.


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      05 VR GT Titanium Grey/Nordakp, sunroof, Winter Package, Premium sound with Volvo Sub. VST rear brace, Ultra Racing front strut brace. iPD Sways and other little upgrades they have. EST DP with Touring Exhaust.

    30. #28
      Junior Member Mecon07's Avatar
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      When I did mine I used a good bit of grease to lubricate and just smashed em in with a hammer. It is tight, they're pretty tough to get in all the way.
      2007 S60R M66 - Black/Nordkap - 185k - Snabb intake, Forge CBV. iPD anti-roll bars. Snabb FMIC soon to come.

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