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    1. #36
      Junior Member gunshow's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by MyVolvoS60 View Post
      So Geely failing to compensate dealers adequately means some techs won't even bother to keep up with the latest bulletins. Since you either won't get paid now, unless the customer purchased the update, or the risk of having to work for "free" is further offset by an update going awry.
      You are wrong... I will say this AGAIN.... if there is a vehicle repair under warranty that requires SW, we will be compensated.

      This is just the free SW during services that we are no longer compensated for doing.

      Quote Originally Posted by nbvolks View Post
      This is also why I think they're switching to OTA.
      OTA will never happen. Vehicles are crashing while connected via ethernet and wifi for no apparent reason at the dealers. This takes hours of repair to get the vehicle running again. OTA WILL NOT HAPPEN!!!!
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    3. #37
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      Quote Originally Posted by nbvolks View Post
      This is also why I think they're switching to OTA. It can quietly update in the background any time the car is on. Complete the full download, then notify the owner that the update is ready to be installed, and will do so during a pre-selected time (overnight, for example) that the owner selects. That's essentially what they've been doing for the map updates, and is how Android/Apple do their updates, so it's a natural transition for Volvo to make to cut costs and increase uptake.

      If this is true, then they could at least wait to cut off dealer updates until that functionality is enabled in the current SPA cars.
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    4. #38
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      Quote Originally Posted by jjd416 View Post
      I find it very hard to believe that less than half of the cars eligible for service 2.0 are taking advantage of it. ... That would mean that more than half of new owners are taking their cars elsewhere for service at their own expense. I don't think so!
      Mine likely on that list. Don't underestimate how terrible some Volvo dealerships can be. I absolutely hate the dealer I bought mine from as their service staff is unbearable. All of the 15-20% service discount coupons they send me can't convince me otherwise.

      For those going the 3 day subscription to VIDA route, don't you have to pay extra for the software update per VIN? If Volvo made them free, this wouldn't be a completely bad move.

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    6. #39
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      If it was a safety concern, there would be a recall or service action. There have been more than one of those for Total Upgrades. Maybe they will just release a yearly Service Action to get the car in for the major updates.

    7. #40
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      Quote Originally Posted by gunshow View Post
      OTA will never happen. Vehicles are crashing while connected via ethernet and wifi for no apparent reason at the dealers. This takes hours of repair to get the vehicle running again. OTA WILL NOT HAPPEN!!!!
      OTA already happens for several other brands. And given the handful of folks on here that do the updates themselves, it seems those crashes are probably more about the techs (no offense intended) or the hardware they have to work with.

      In any event, there's literally nothing that would keep Service 2.0 updates from being implemented OTA. The cars themselves have everything they need on-board to do it. The likelihood of this only goes up as they roll-out a revised Sensus that's a reskinned Android Auto.

      I've reached out to VCUSA directly (not the helpdesk) to get some clarification on this and will report what I hear.

    8. #41
      Junior Member gunshow's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by nbvolks View Post
      OTA already happens for several other brands. And given the handful of folks on here that do the updates themselves, it seems those crashes are probably more about the techs (no offense intended) or the hardware they have to work with.

      In any event, there's literally nothing that would keep Service 2.0 updates from being implemented OTA. The cars themselves have everything they need on-board to do it. The likelihood of this only goes up as they roll-out a revised Sensus that's a reskinned Android Auto.

      I've reached out to VCUSA directly (not the helpdesk) to get some clarification on this and will report what I hear.
      Us techs have nothing to do with these SW updates crashing. It just happens for no rhyme or reason.

      Half the time Volvo tech help has to remote in to bring the car back alive.
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    9. #42
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      Quote Originally Posted by gunshow View Post
      Us techs have nothing to do with these SW updates crashing. It just happens for no rhyme or reason.

      Half the time Volvo tech help has to remote in to bring the car back alive.
      There's always a reason. Crappy tethering connectors that are worn out or not properly pushed in. Over used computer hardware that's not ideal for the shop environment, etc., etc.

      OTA is WAY cleaner and simpler. Again, millions upon millions of people get those updates for UIs and apps every single day with a minimal rate of failure. And given Volvo's announcement of an issue with uptake, it really does point to making that move.

    10. #43
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      Quote Originally Posted by nbvolks View Post
      Quote Originally Posted by gunshow View Post
      Us techs have nothing to do with these SW updates crashing. It just happens for no rhyme or reason.

      Half the time Volvo tech help has to remote in to bring the car back alive.
      There's always a reason. Crappy tethering connectors that are worn out or not properly pushed in. Over used computer hardware that's not ideal for the shop environment, etc., etc.

      OTA is WAY cleaner and simpler. Again, millions upon millions of people get those updates for UIs and apps every single day with a minimal rate of failure. And given Volvo's announcement of an issue with uptake, it really does point to making that move.
      When I have support perform a remote takeover to fix one, they are using the same computer and crappy connectors.

    11. #44
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      As a red teamer, please go to OTA so I can build out tools that can hack your cars.

      The more manufacturers that go to the OTA concept, the more tools can be built to do this.

      ...

      If you don't note the sarcasm, please insert sarcasm into that comment.

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    12. #45
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      Any manufacturer who has the hubris to state " we will be removing Complimentary Software updates from our suite of customer promises under the Service by Volvo umbrella" does not deserve my business. A promise is a promise, even from an automobile manufacturer. There are other words for "removing a promise", and none of them are very complimentary. Bad show, Volvo. This will turn out to be a huge mistake that will tarnish a brand that once stood for something.
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    13. #46
      Junior Member gunshow's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by nbvolks View Post
      There's always a reason. Crappy tethering connectors that are worn out or not properly pushed in. Over used computer hardware that's not ideal for the shop environment, etc., etc.

      OTA is WAY cleaner and simpler. Again, millions upon millions of people get those updates for UIs and apps every single day with a minimal rate of failure. And given Volvo's announcement of an issue with uptake, it really does point to making that move.
      Quote Originally Posted by Tech View Post
      When I have support perform a remote takeover to fix one, they are using the same computer and crappy connectors.

      Apparently you should work for Volvo, nbvolks. You know more than us.
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    14. #47
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      How’s your XC90 vs Model X thread working out for you now?? Lmaooo

    15. #48
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      Stop making excuses for an idiotic corporate decision. NO consumer will like this and the auto industry is moving away from this sort of bone head attitude. Wake up and look around. geeze...

      Quote Originally Posted by fyreline View Post
      Any manufacturer who has the hubris to state " we will be removing Complimentary Software updates from our suite of customer promises under the Service by Volvo umbrella" does not deserve my business. A promise is a promise, even from an automobile manufacturer. There are other words for "removing a promise", and none of them are very complimentary. Bad show, Volvo. This will turn out to be a huge mistake that will tarnish a brand that once stood for something.
      Exactly!
      Last edited by Paradox; 08-02-2019 at 10:49 AM. Reason: merged 2 consecutive posts, use multi quote
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    16. #49
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      Quote Originally Posted by gunshow View Post
      Apparently you should work for Volvo, nbvolks. You know more than us.
      Don't take offense to it. The reality is that OTA has fewer potential failure points. That's just the reality. Once you introduce physical connectors and people who themselves are not software people (most techs), you introduce more opportunities for failure.

      But again, I think it's worth waiting to hear back from VCUSA about the customer facing aspect of this, since the last sentence of their notice implies the dealer impact is effective 8/1, but leaves the customer side as a "will be".

      Quote Originally Posted by xgman View Post
      Stop making excuses for an idiotic corporate decision. NO consumer will like this and the auto industry is moving away from this sort of bone head attitude. Wake up and look around. geeze...
      I don't think we have the full context of what's going on. We have a notification that was made to dealerships, primarily around compensating them. The language around the customer facing side is not as clear, and there as of right now, is no publicly available customer facing announcement about what isn't a trivial change to a service agreement.

      So people should take a breath, and wait to hear back from Volvo on how this will actually pan out to them...as owners/customers.
      Last edited by Paradox; 08-02-2019 at 10:49 AM. Reason: merged 2 consecutive posts, use multi quote

    17. #50
      Junior Member gunshow's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by nbvolks View Post
      Don't take offense to it. The reality is that OTA has fewer potential failure points. That's just the reality. Once you introduce physical connectors and people who themselves are not software people (most techs), you introduce more opportunities for failure.

      But again, I think it's worth waiting to hear back from VCUSA about the customer facing aspect of this, since the last sentence of their notice implies the dealer impact is effective 8/1, but leaves the customer side as a "will be".
      OTA is no more special or "secure connection" than the wifi SW downloads we do at the dealer. It is also no more secure than ethernet.

      I am not taking offense to anything but its stupid to say OTA (cellular) is more secure than ethernet directly from a laptop/desktop.


      The customer side is as usual dumped on the dealer/tech. Volvo cares less about us techs than customers. They said we can continue to do it for free or not do it at all. I dont know about you guys but I never work for free. Especially with the hazards that come along with the SW updates.
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    18. #51
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      If you are selling a high tech product at a premium, you have to support it, esp during the paid maintenance period. Otherwise the customer will go elsewhere
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      Quote Originally Posted by FusionRedXC60 View Post
      Is this VCUSA's decision or Volvo Sweden? It is always confusing to me which one is paying dealers for labor in warranty work.

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    20. #53
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      Quote Originally Posted by Zahra View Post
      Important question, but nobody seems to know...
      Volvo doesnt tell us what the rest of the world warranty pays or does. My assumption is company wide/worldwide. BUT the rest of the world has salary/hourly technicians and not flat rate so they (worldwide techs) could care less more than likely. Volvo is noticeably pinching pennies everywhere they can.
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      Quote Originally Posted by Zahra View Post
      Important question, but nobody seems to know...
      From the first post, it says "VCUSA". But well, people always think VCUSA is same as Volvo Sweden.
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    22. #55
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      Quote Originally Posted by gunshow View Post
      Quote Originally Posted by nbvolks View Post
      Don't take offense to it. The reality is that OTA has fewer potential failure points. That's just the reality. Once you introduce physical connectors and people who themselves are not software people (most techs), you introduce more opportunities for failure.

      But again, I think it's worth waiting to hear back from VCUSA about the customer facing aspect of this, since the last sentence of their notice implies the dealer impact is effective 8/1, but leaves the customer side as a "will be".
      OTA is no more special or "secure connection" than the wifi SW downloads we do at the dealer. It is also no more secure than ethernet.

      I am not taking offense to anything but its stupid to say OTA (cellular) is more secure than ethernet directly from a laptop/desktop.


      The customer side is as usual dumped on the dealer/tech. Volvo cares less about us techs than customers. They said we can continue to do it for free or not do it at all. I dont know about you guys but I never work for free. Especially with the hazards that come along with the SW updates.
      "Secure" is the wrong word. It's not about digital security in an information sense. I'm talking about the physical Ethernet connection you're making as part of the process you go through. Any time you introduce a physical tethering component that sees repeated connections and disconnections they wear out and begin to fail. It is an additional point of failure. It's an additional level of process to OTA.

      It's like WAY back in the day when I wanted to update the software on my phone (pre-Android and iPhone), I would have to physically connect to my computer. Don't have to do that anymore, thankfully, and way less bricking of phones as a result.

    23. #56
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      Quote Originally Posted by gunshow View Post
      Us techs have nothing to do with these SW updates crashing. It just happens for no rhyme or reason.

      Half the time Volvo tech help has to remote in to bring the car back alive.
      This means the software is not robust enough. If Volvo tech can bring the car back remotely, it can be designed into software to do same thing human technician is doing.

      Hope their R&D team can nail this and make it a more robust system.
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    24. #57
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      Quote Originally Posted by jjd416 View Post
      Which is another example of VCUSA needing to better train dealers. It seems to me that the dealer experience is all over the place, from great to bad. Luckily my dealer is very good, but I have to drive right past my local dealer that is minutes from home and work because of bad experiences, and drive over 45 minutes to a dealer that has very good techs.

      VCUSA should use this as a learning experience and fix its dealer network.
      This is my experience as well. I’m more than an hour away.




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      Quote Originally Posted by n a m View Post
      This is my experience as well. I’m more than an hour away.




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      Or make the software more robust so less human help is needed, usually less costly than training thousands of technicians.

      If the update process is just hook up cables and start the software then everything is done smoothly, no much training is needed and everyone will be happy. And it will be closer to do OTA update.
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    26. #59
      Junior Member gunshow's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by FusionRedXC60 View Post
      This means the software is not robust enough. If Volvo tech can bring the car back remotely, it can be designed into software to do same thing human technician is doing.

      Hope their R&D team can nail this and make it a more robust system.
      You are not understanding.

      When SW fails, the car is dead. LITERALLY nothing turns on. You want this in your garage? At a rest stop on the highway?



      Quote Originally Posted by FusionRedXC60 View Post
      If the update process is just hook up cables and start the software then everything is done smoothly, no much training is needed and everyone will be happy. And it will be closer to do OTA update.
      This is literally what we do. Hook up and download.
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    27. #60
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      Quote Originally Posted by gunshow View Post
      You are not understanding.

      When SW fails, the car is dead. LITERALLY nothing turns on. You want this in your garage? At a rest stop on the highway?
      You think SW fails for no reason, but it is not thunder from sky. Every failure has a reason behind it. Just need time to dig out, which their R&D team can do, and dealers can't.

      Your phone OS, PC OS, can be upgraded overnight without attention from you. Car software if made more robust, can do it too.
      Last edited by FusionRedXC60; 07-31-2019 at 12:58 PM.
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    28. #61
      Junior Member gunshow's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by FusionRedXC60 View Post
      You think SW fails for no reason, but it is not thunder from sky. Every failure has a reason behind it. Just need time to dig out, which their R&D team can do, and dealers can't.

      Your phone OS, PC OS, can be upgraded overnight without attention from you. Car software if made more robust, can do it too.
      Apple and Microsoft are software companies and their software updates one product (your iphone for example). That is their #1 specialty.

      I doubt Volvo, a car company trying to pinch pennies and increase profit, will go out of their way to provide the kind of updates that are possible with your phone and PC especially since they are trying to update individual 30 modules. You cant compare PC/iphone/ipad to a vehicle.
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    29. #62
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      Quote Originally Posted by gunshow View Post
      Apple and Microsoft are software companies and their software updates one product (your iphone for example). That is their #1 specialty.

      I doubt Volvo, a car company trying to pinch pennies and increase profit, will go out of their way to provide the kind of updates that are possible with your phone and PC especially since they are trying to update individual 30 modules. You cant compare PC/iphone/ipad to a vehicle.
      @Gunshow, do you have any information currently revolving around the android based system upgrade? Will this new software be compatible with our current vehicles, even if at a cost? Or will this just be on the new cars released with the android software from the get go?

    30. #63
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      Quote Originally Posted by gunshow View Post
      Apple and Microsoft are software companies and their software updates one product (your iphone for example). That is their #1 specialty.

      I doubt Volvo, a car company trying to pinch pennies and increase profit, will go out of their way to provide the kind of updates that are possible with your phone and PC especially since they are trying to update individual 30 modules. You cant compare PC/iphone/ipad to a vehicle.
      Microsoft and Android/Google update MANY different products with very different hardware specs and for the most part, do so seamlessly. It's even easier with Volvo, because they're more akin to Apple, who is only updating for in-house built hardware. Volvo maintains control over the hardware development and specs. All of those companies are trying to "pinch pennies and increase profits", so that's not unique to Volvo.

    31. #64
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      Quote Originally Posted by gunshow View Post
      You are not understanding.

      When SW fails, the car is dead. LITERALLY nothing turns on. You want this in your garage? At a rest stop on the highway?
      Short answer YES! I'll take the chance. Stop protecting us and being so defensive of volvo. We want the updates. Period!
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      Quote Originally Posted by gunshow View Post
      Apple and Microsoft are software companies and their software updates one product (your iphone for example). That is their #1 specialty.

      I doubt Volvo, a car company trying to pinch pennies and increase profit, will go out of their way to provide the kind of updates that are possible with your phone and PC especially since they are trying to update individual 30 modules. You cant compare PC/iphone/ipad to a vehicle.
      30 modules is just piece of cake if they are robust. There are more hardware device/driver software than that in PC/Phone.
      It is just matter of how to create robust software. Create a small R&D group to tackle the problem and it could be solved in a few years if not sooner.
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    33. #66
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      Quote Originally Posted by xgman View Post
      Short answer YES! I'll take the chance. Stop protecting us and being so defensive of volvo. We want the updates. Period!
      I am not defending them. In fact I am against them right now.

      But if they're too cheap to pay us to update your car or pay us to do proper repairs on a vehicle (I.E. piston replacement), what makes you think they'll spend money on OTA and then pay for your car to be towed out of your garage once SW fails?
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      For the record I'm not defending them here either. I was just giving some context to how they started paying us and now are not.

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      Quote Originally Posted by gunshow View Post
      I am not defending them. In fact I am against them right now.

      But if they're too cheap to pay us to update your car or pay us to do proper repairs on a vehicle (I.E. piston replacement), what makes you think they'll spend money on OTA and then pay for your car to be towed out of your garage once SW fails?
      I don't mind coming in to the shop for updates. I just don't want to have to beg and plead. This whole discussion is making me upset and looking at other models as we speak.

      As I see it, any techs on here should be relaying the feedback to their gen managers.
      Last edited by Paradox; 08-02-2019 at 10:50 AM. Reason: merged 2 consecutive posts
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    36. #69
      Junior Member gunshow's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by xgman View Post
      I don't mind coming in to the shop for updates. I just don't want to have to beg and plead. This whole discussion is making me upset and looking at other models as we speak.
      Email Volvo and tell them. Let them know (not us) that you'll consider another brand because of their penny pinching and broken promises.

      My general manager cant do anything. My service manager cant do a thing. I can email Volvo warranty through TIE but i'll get the usual Bullsh*t reply of "we'll send this to Sweden for analysis".
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      How about Volvo just stop developing new software updates . . that way they don't have to provide them for free, or charge for them
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