No more free software updates

[timlocke]

Considering that the car is just a computer with wheels I wonder why they just don’t go to over the air updates.
In my case I would be happy to tell the car to connect to my home network every month or so for an hour and get the system software updated. FWIW I park on my driveway within range of my wifi.

But I have no problem with paying for the update every so often at the dealer...if the car would notify me that there is a system update ready.

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[Heimdall]

First of all I would like to thank our gardian Angels. Gunshow and Tech for their support on every aspect.

Secondly. I’m not sure if Volvo is serious about this or just rocking the boat for some reason.

The ramifications of this is simply astronomical, it qualifies as breach of contract and will open hell doors for lawsuits and class actions.

Many can simply start breaking their leases and cancel their orders and others would even start returning their purchases.

I don’t know what Volvo is thinking. But this was a purchase decision factor and an offer made to customers.

Breaking it is violating contract.

That’s my opinion.


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[badge4]

Does anyone have an email address that can be used to express our feelings about this ? I just spent the last ten minutes bouncing around Volvo USA website and came up empty.

Thank you

[WhoaVolvo]

First of all I would like to thank our gardian Angels. Gunshow and Tech for their support on every aspect.

Secondly. I’m not sure if Volvo is serious about this or just rocking the boat for some reason.

The ramifications of this is simply astronomical, it qualifies as breach of contract and will open hell doors for lawsuits and class actions.

Many can simply start breaking their leases and cancel their orders and others would even start returning their purchases.

I don’t know what Volvo is thinking. But this was a purchase decision factor and an offer made to customers.

Breaking it is violating contract.

That’s my opinion.


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The software is still free. Installing it is at the discretion of the dealer if they want to charge you or not... That's the synopsis based on what was pasted by OP.

[BigBang]

Does anyone have an email address that can be used to express our feelings about this ? I just spent the last ten minutes bouncing around Volvo USA website and came up empty.

Thank you

Here at the bottom of the page: email, call, write, chat

https://volvo.custhelp.com/app/homeV3

[xgman]

This is what my general manager wrote me:

They provide the software for free and it is up to dealers to decide what they want to do. I had a 3 minute meeting with my service manager and told him that we are going to offer the service free to customers. This is the difference between good dealers and the rest.

[gunshow]

I've lost track of the amount of times people have called Customer Care to fact check and gotten the wrong information.

The information posted is from a portal that I very much doubt Customer Care workers have access to. As of now, whether anyone wants to believe it it is true.

Cost for the software is $0.01 plus labor. Expect to pay .5 to 1.0 labor unless dealers start menu pricing them.

Its pretty stupid to not believe us when we are reporting directly from Volvo themselves. How asinine can someone be?

The software is still free. Installing it is at the discretion of the dealer if they want to charge you or not... That's the synopsis based on what was pasted by OP.

This is what my general manager wrote me:

They provide the software for free and it is up to dealers to decide what they want to do. I had a 3 minute meeting with my service manager and told him that we are going to offer the service free to customers. This is the difference between good dealers and the rest.

Software 2.0 updates should NEVER be charged for the software itself. HOWEVER... we do not work for free and if Volvo was paying us 1/2 hour to do software, the customer or dealer should be paying us techs the same. The risk on SW failures and the aftermath of a failure is the reason I will never do "free" software.

I literally just lost 5 hours (minimum) of paid hours a week and if customers, dealers, and Volvo think I will just eat this with a smile, they are mistaken

[xgman]

Software 2.0 updates should NEVER be charged for the software itself. HOWEVER... we do not work for free and if Volvo was paying us 1/2 hour to do software, the customer or dealer should be paying us techs the same. The risk on SW failures and the aftermath of a failure is the reason I will never do "free" software.

I literally just lost 5 hours (minimum) of paid hours a week and if customers, dealers, and Volvo think I will just eat this with a smile, they are mistaken

Then you need to find another reputable dealer. Dealer should pay you regardless of what Volvo policy is. If that isn't possible where you are I'd go work for a different company because that would be way unfair. My gen manager would never not pay his techs for their work regardless.

[gunshow]

Then you need to find another reputable dealer. Dealer should pay you regardless of what Volvo policy is. If that isn't possible where you are I'd go work for a different company because that would be way unfair.

If you find one in America, let me know. Its unheard of but you may know better than us technicians.

BTW, i work for a fanstastic dealer. Best one I worked for in the US.

[xgman]

If you find one in America, let me know. Its unheard of but you may know better than us technicians.

BTW, i work for a fanstastic dealer. Best one I worked for in the US.

I don't want to blast names of dealers on the forum, but I feel for you. You are caught in the middle. Keep in mind that dealers have for decades, had various programs that they offer customers that are internal and don't involve reimbursements from the Car manufacturer, such as free loaners, extended warranties, and yes software updates in this case. If you have the choice of two dealers (some don't) and one offers free updates, guess who is going to that dealer!

[nbvolks]

Let's try to consolidate this conversation to the one larger thread in the XC90 forum. No reason to have this splintered across multiple forums.

https://forums.swedespeed.com/showth...e-software!!!!!!!!

[cohall]

I was at my dealer yesterday having the trunk strut recall completed. They had just gotten word from Volvo about the change, and their gut reaction was to continue to offer it to there customers for free.

That said, I think this change would pretty clearly be a breach of contract by Volvo to customers that have already purchased their vehicles. Just sitting in the waiting room I saw the below sign as well as the wording on my dealer's website about free software upgrades for life. I will be sending a letter to Volvo reminding them of their commitment to me when I purchased the car.

[Heimdall]

The software is still free. Installing it is at the discretion of the dealer if they want to charge you or not... That's the synopsis based on what was pasted by OP.

I understand what you’re saying.
Yet if you look at the statements in their website and service book. It states free software updates. This means the process from A-Z of software update is free, without going into details. Of who’s and what’s.


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[WhoaVolvo]

I understand what you’re saying.
Yet if you look at the statements in their website and service book. It states free software updates. This means the process from A-Z of software update is free, without going into details. Of who’s and what’s.


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I think you painted the point perfectly... They aren't preventing you from getting software updates. They never said they were going to stop. Where do you see "A-z" of software is free? Based on the image posted above there is definitely a * next to free of charge.

[Heimdall]

Software 2.0 updates should NEVER be charged for the software itself. HOWEVER... we do not work for free and if Volvo was paying us 1/2 hour to do software, the customer or dealer should be paying us techs the same. The risk on SW failures and the aftermath of a failure is the reason I will never do "free" software.

I literally just lost 5 hours (minimum) of paid hours a week and if customers, dealers, and Volvo think I will just eat this with a smile, they are mistaken

No and I mean no one should work for free at any job.

That being said, some people could mes-represent their statement and make it look as someone else should be the escape goat for this.

Let me tell you what I think and I believe many if not all believe the same.

We are only releasing pressure in ways that might seem inaccurate, but what everyone here wants is for Volvo to honor their deal that they’ve extended to current owners by:
1)reimbursing in full the dealers -> Techs for such jobs.
2)provide these jobs as promised for free to the customers.

Trust me when I tell you. These costs were already considered when they priced their cars to the market.

So at the end I believe we “customers and techs” should stand together and support each other in holding them to their words.

*And I genuinely believe that this is what Gunshow and Tech are trying to advocate by sharing all what they are sharing with us.*

Thank you guys for helping us and for being you.


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[nbvolks]

I think you painted the point perfectly... They aren't preventing you from getting software updates. They never said they were going to stop. Where do you see "A-z" of software is free? Based on the image posted above there is definitely a * next to free of charge.

That double asterisks refers to a comment about making an exception for the addition of accessories and repairs.

[Tech]

Software 2.0 updates should NEVER be charged for the software itself. HOWEVER... we do not work for free and if Volvo was paying us 1/2 hour to do software, the customer or dealer should be paying us techs the same. The risk on SW failures and the aftermath of a failure is the reason I will never do "free" software.

I literally just lost 5 hours (minimum) of paid hours a week and if customers, dealers, and Volvo think I will just eat this with a smile, they are mistaken <img src="http://www.vwvortex.com/Anthony/Smilies/mad.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Mad" class="inlineimg" />

No and I mean no one should work for free at any job.

That being said, some people could mes-represent their statement and make it look as someone else should be the escape goat for this.

Let me tell you what I think and I believe many if not all believe the same.

We are only releasing pressure in ways that might seem inaccurate, but what everyone here wants is for Volvo to honor their deal that they’ve extended to current owners by:
1)reimbursing in full the dealers -> Techs for such jobs.
2)provide these jobs as promised for free to the customers.

Trust me when I tell you. These costs were already considered when they priced their cars to the market.

So at the end I believe we “customers and techs” should stand together and support each other in holding them to their words.

*And I genuinely believe that this is what Gunshow and Tech are trying to advocate by sharing all what they are sharing with us.*

Thank you guys for helping us and for being you.


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Yes I agree.

I stand up for Volvo and dealers a lot here in the face of many peoples' hatred for the "stealership". But I do not agree with what Volvo is doing here, unless they are planning to release yearly Service Actions for Total Upgrades.

[BigBang]

Let's try to consolidate this conversation to the one larger thread in the XC90 forum. No reason to have this splintered across multiple forums.

https://forums.swedespeed.com/showth...-free-software!!!!

Check your link

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The requested URL /showth...-free-software was not found on this server.

[Heimdall]

I think you painted the point perfectly... They aren't preventing you from getting software updates. They never said they were going to stop. Where do you see "A-z" of software is free? Based on the image posted above there is definitely a * next to free of charge.

I got it from my dealer with No *** or restrictions.

I’m my quotation it clearly states amongst other things. Free periodic software updates. For the duration of ownership of the vehicle. I believe it’s listed on the Monroney as well.


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[ssskelton]

The software is still free. Installing it is at the discretion of the dealer if they want to charge you or not... That's the synopsis based on what was pasted by OP.

If Volvo locks the upgrade process behind a visit to dealerships, where it is not universally offered as a free service, then it isn't free. The way they marketed it clearly stated you'd *receive* the upgrade free of charge. These sorts of distinctions are important from a legal standpoint.

[savolvo]

I have the impression that all this is specific to the US market and not a worldwide issue. I am not aware how technicians are being paid in the US, but I assume from Gunshow that they are being paid by the hour they work on a vehicle, which means that they are accounted for any time they perform a work and they also have restrictions on how much time they can do such works. In Greece on the other hand technicians are paid on a monthly basis 5 or 6 day a week from 08.00 to 16.30. In this timespan they are supposed to perform all works and services for the cars scheduled for the day. That means that whether they spent half an hour or 5 hours on one vehicle updating its software, their salary will not change. The only problem that might arise is that some customers might have to wait longer to take back their vehicles. Having said all that, I also have to mention that on my car they have had to do total module update twice, a process that took around two hours each time BUT all this time I did not see the technician on top of my car the whole time. The only thing I noticed was the cable connected to the computer and the car plugged in doing noises and flashing different lights.

My point is that this announcement from Volvo Cars USA most probably has to do with their relationship with the dealers and not the customers.

[nbvolks]

Check your link

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The requested URL /showth...-free-software was not found on this server.

Edited my post.

[Tech]

I have the impression that all this is specific to the US market and not a worldwide issue. I am not aware how technicians are being paid in the US, but I assume from Gunshow that they are being paid by the hour they work on a vehicle, which means that they are accounted for any time they perform a work and they also have restrictions on how much time they can do such works. In Greece on the other hand technicians are paid on a monthly basis 5 or 6 day a week from 08.00 to 16.30. In this timespan they are supposed to perform all works and services for the cars scheduled for the day. That means that whether they spent half an hour or 5 hours on one vehicle updating its software, their salary will not change. The only problem that might arise is that some customers might have to wait longer to take back their vehicles

Techs in the US (at most dealerships) are paid flat rate. We are paid an amount of time per job based on labor time guides.

For example, a timing belt on a P2 pays 2.5 hours. I can do the job in under 40 minutes. I am still paid 2.5 hours.

As gunshow said, the piston jobs pay around 11 hours warranty. It may take 16 hours. We are still paid 11 hours.

At the end of a 40 hour week, I might have 50 or 60 hours. I might also have 30. Some shops have a guarantee of a certain number of hours per week. So if guarantee is 35 hours and I have 30, I am paid 35. If I have 60, I am paid 60.

So any job that we are doing that we are not being paid for is a waste of time. That is why if my dealer does not pay me internally for software updates, I will not be tying up one of my work bays doing software updates.

[genesmasher]

Correct me if I am wrong, but there is no physical labor involved in software update. A technician just plugs VIDA machine in the car, punches a couple of keys and the computer does all the work. I just don't see how it would be appropriate to compare the effort required to something like an engine rebuild or even an oil change. Software updates should be part of normal development costs for the car maker, similar to voluntary recall due to a defective/malfunctioning part. To charge a customer for this is a rip off, plain and simple (including Polestar "optimization"). Flame on

[Tech]

Correct me if I am wrong, but there is no physical labor involved in software update. A technician just plugs VIDA machine in the car, punches a couple of keys and the computer does all the work. I just don't see how it would be appropriate to compare the effort required to something like an engine rebuild or even an oil change. Software updates should be part of normal development costs for the car maker, similar to voluntary recall due to a defective/malfunctioning part. To charge a customer for this is a rip off, plain and simple (including Polestar "optimization"). Flame on <img src="http://www.vwvortex.com/Anthony/Smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Big Grin" class="inlineimg" />

It's about time, not effort. Minimal effort is needed if all goes smoothly. But the car is tying up my work bay, so I can't use that bay to make money if I'm downloading free software. I also can't use my VIDA to diagnose another car of someone who is paying for my time.

[ssskelton]

It's about time, not effort. Minimal effort is needed if all goes smoothly. But the car is tying up my work bay, so I can't use that bay to make money if I'm downloading free software. I also can't use my VIDA to diagnose another car of someone who is paying for my time.

Yeah, when you go to the hospital those diagnostic tests don't cost a fortune because the technicians are working for hours on your imaging. It's because that machine cost $400k.

Well... and the broken US health care system gouges everyone... but that's a different subject.

[WhoaVolvo]

Correct me if I am wrong, but there is no physical labor involved in software update. A technician just plugs VIDA machine in the car, punches a couple of keys and the computer does all the work. I just don't see how it would be appropriate to compare the effort required to something like an engine rebuild or even an oil change. Software updates should be part of normal development costs for the car maker, similar to voluntary recall due to a defective/malfunctioning part. To charge a customer for this is a rip off, plain and simple (including Polestar "optimization"). Flame on

It's about time, not effort. Minimal effort is needed if all goes smoothly. But the car is tying up my work bay, so I can't use that bay to make money if I'm downloading free software. I also can't use my VIDA to diagnose another car of someone who is paying for my time.

VIDA WiFi... Not like they aren't giving alternatives to tying up bays....

[Tech]

Correct me if I am wrong, but there is no physical labor involved in software update. A technician just plugs VIDA machine in the car, punches a couple of keys and the computer does all the work. I just don't see how it would be appropriate to compare the effort required to something like an engine rebuild or even an oil change. Software updates should be part of normal development costs for the car maker, similar to voluntary recall due to a defective/malfunctioning part. To charge a customer for this is a rip off, plain and simple (including Polestar "optimization"). Flame on <img src="http://www.vwvortex.com/Anthony/Smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Big Grin" class="inlineimg" />

It's about time, not effort. Minimal effort is needed if all goes smoothly. But the car is tying up my work bay, so I can't use that bay to make money if I'm downloading free software. I also can't use my VIDA to diagnose another car of someone who is paying for my time.

VIDA WiFi... Not like they aren't giving alternatives to tying up bays....

Yep. Still need a battery charger on the car.

[WhoaVolvo]

Correct me if I am wrong, but there is no physical labor involved in software update. A technician just plugs VIDA machine in the car, punches a couple of keys and the computer does all the work. I just don't see how it would be appropriate to compare the effort required to something like an engine rebuild or even an oil change. Software updates should be part of normal development costs for the car maker, similar to voluntary recall due to a defective/malfunctioning part. To charge a customer for this is a rip off, plain and simple (including Polestar "optimization"). Flame on <img src="http://www.vwvortex.com/Anthony/Smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Big Grin" class="inlineimg" />

It's about time, not effort. Minimal effort is needed if all goes smoothly. But the car is tying up my work bay, so I can't use that bay to make money if I'm downloading free software. I also can't use my VIDA to diagnose another car of someone who is paying for my time.

VIDA WiFi... Not like they aren't giving alternatives to tying up bays....

Yep. Still need a battery charger on the car.

I'm with ya. Pretty sure the retailers have had to spec outlets out there too. I'm not fighting against you guys... But gunshow has gone a lil overboard... Sux but out of context.

[genesmasher]

It's about time, not effort. Minimal effort is needed if all goes smoothly. But the car is tying up my work bay, so I can't use that bay to make money if I'm downloading free software. I also can't use my VIDA to diagnose another car of someone who is paying for my time.

One could argue that it's all about planning the project efficiently. Hook it up to VIDA first, start the update, then go do whatever physical service the car is in for (oil change, etc.). By the time you are done with that, software update is finished - no extra time in the bay. Most software updates take just a few minutes, AFAIK. Yes, there are time-consuming exceptions that could take couple of hours - tell the customer it will be done with the next major service (unless critical, in which case Volvo should cover it). Is there a reason why a dealership can't purchase a few more VIDA laptops to be used for diagnostics? Presumably dealer VIDA license covers multiple terminals, and hardware itself costs peanuts.

[Tech]

It's about time, not effort. Minimal effort is needed if all goes smoothly. But the car is tying up my work bay, so I can't use that bay to make money if I'm downloading free software. I also can't use my VIDA to diagnose another car of someone who is paying for my time.

One could argue that it's all about planning the project efficiently. Hook it up to VIDA first, start the update, then go do whatever physical service the car is in for (oil change, etc.). By the time you are done with that, software update is finished - no extra time in the bay. Most software updates take just a few minutes, AFAIK. Yes, there are time-consuming exceptions that could take couple of hours - tell the customer it will be done with the next major service (unless critical, in which case Volvo should cover it). Is there a reason why a dealership can't purchase a few more VIDA laptops to be used for diagnostics? Presumably dealer VIDA license covers multiple terminals, and hardware itself costs peanuts.

Depends on the setup the technician has.

I have my bays set up where I can have a battery charger on a car and have it plugged into VIDA while in the air so I can do that. That was on my dime. So that I can be more efficient and book more hours. So I expect to be paid for services performed. No matter what I'm doing while it is being performed. Me being efficient shouldn't make me less money.

Also, by that same argument, if I hook up an AC machine to evacuate, vacuum and recharge an AC system while I also do other work on the car, I shouldn't be paid for that.

Or if I rotate tires while oil is draining, I should do that for free.

Not how it works. If I were to receive a fair salary, then fine. But dealers wouldn't pay me a salary equal to my effective labor rate. So I don't do anything besides wipers for free.

[xgman]

Again, no offense meant, but it is not owners problem to advocate for techs. A smart dealer will figure this out on both ends.

[Tech]

No offense taken. Just don't get mad at the techs for not doing your update when you bring the car in. Them not getting paid isn't your problem or your fault. But that doesn't mean they should do it for free either out of the goodness of their heart.

[nbvolks]

Yep. Still need a battery charger on the car.

I still don't get that. It seems like something done out of an abundance of caution. None of the other makes/models that do OTA updates require that, IF, the onboard system determines that the battery is in good condition with a good charge.

[genesmasher]

Depends on the setup the technician has.

I have my bays set up where I can have a battery charger on a car and have it plugged into VIDA while in the air so I can do that. That was on my dime. So that I can be more efficient and book more hours. So I expect to be paid for services performed. No matter what I'm doing while it is being performed. Me being efficient shouldn't make me less money.

Also, by that same argument, if I hook up an AC machine to evacuate, vacuum and recharge an AC system while I also do other work on the car, I shouldn't be paid for that.

Or if I rotate tires while oil is draining, I should do that for free.

Not how it works. If I were to receive a fair salary, then fine. But dealers wouldn't pay me a salary equal to my effective labor rate. So I don't do anything besides wipers for free.

I hear you. I really hope Volvo looks into this again. I understand it's all about the money, but it has to be reasonable. I would suggest supplementing every software update product with either "essential" or "discretionary" tag. Most of them will probably fall into the second category, but the ones in the first category should be fully covered by Volvo (update to speed-up Sensus comes to mind - well-known development bug and a subject of many customer complaints). And if the customer comes in with a problem (under warranty) that is solved by the product in discretionary category, if it should be covered by Volvo as well. If there is no problem, it is up to the dealer to decide if they are willing to cover the cost of the update out of good will, at their expense. Again, most software updates are short and really should not be billed for more than 1/2 hour of labor - minimal expense to the dealer.