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    1. #36
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      To the point of one tooth off and drove around a week with no issues: the CVVT positions, exhaust especially, have desired positions that are emissions targeted. Often when timing belt changes get the cams one tooth off, the owner drives the car for a time and then the temps get cooler and they check engine light pops on. When the cam was requested to move 15 degrees it was possible. When colder and it wanted 30 degrees offset and it could only get to 23 degrees then the fault is detected.
      2004 V70R GT 255K miles purchased 9/15/12. Had several R company cars in the past and had to have one of my own.
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    3. #37
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      Quote Originally Posted by cattlecar View Post
      To the point of one tooth off and drove around a week with no issues: the CVVT positions, exhaust especially, have desired positions that are emissions targeted. Often when timing belt changes get the cams one tooth off, the owner drives the car for a time and then the temps get cooler and they check engine light pops on. When the cam was requested to move 15 degrees it was possible. When colder and it wanted 30 degrees offset and it could only get to 23 degrees then the fault is detected.
      Makes sense

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    4. #38
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      Quote Originally Posted by boostednbagged View Post
      I think I've figured out a way to make this work... Install an exhaust aperture on the intake cam. The pulse teeth are identical just flipped and will line up perfectly when I flip the sensor housing.

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      Cam sensors are different. Teeth are in the same pattern but clocked differently relative to the locating features:



      And the reason they're clocked differently is because IT MATTERS. Regardless, you can just modify the trigger wheel to allow it to be installed 180° out. Get a scrap one from a junkyard and have a shop mill off the teeth and put pins in that allow it to mount the way you want.

      As far as your arguing: If you have to ask this question, you're not an expert, and shouldn't be arguing with Contrast.
      Last edited by LloydDobler; 11-23-2019 at 10:16 AM.
      2003 C70 T5M Convertible - Eibachs, Koni FSDs, Enkei RSF5s, OBX downpipe, Snabb intake, RIP kit, & drop-in intercooler, Quaife LSD, 19T, Green Giants, 22 psi Hilton tune.
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    6. #39
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      After seeing the OP's other threads, I can't believe that someone who built that engine doesn't realize why flipping the sensor would result in the reading being 180 out.

    7. #40
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      Quote Originally Posted by Tech View Post
      After seeing the OP's other threads, I can't believe that someone who built that engine doesn't realize why flipping the sensor would result in the reading being 180 out.
      Learning as I go man

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    8. #41
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      Quote Originally Posted by LloydDobler View Post
      Cam sensors are different. Teeth are in the same pattern but clocked differently relative to the locating features:



      And the reason they're clocked differently is because IT MATTERS. Regardless, you can just modify the trigger wheel to allow it to be installed 180° out. Get a scrap one from a junkyard and have a shop mill off the teeth and put pins in that allow it to mount the way you want.

      As far as your arguing: If you have to ask this question, you're not an expert, and shouldn't be arguing with Contrast.
      Wasn't trying to come off that way - my apologies @Contrast.
      I don't like being told something can't be done lol. Especially without real data to back it up. I want to see diagrams, tech articles, and ideas. Not opinions.
      If I took everyone's word on this forum of how something works or can't be modified... my car definitely wouldn't be where it is now.

      Most of the time cars are made a certain way for ease and QC with manufacturing. And for repair there after. So when I see something, like the CMP, mounted how it is, the first thing that comes to MY mind is "they probably did this so it's impossible for these idiots to install wrong." Lol

      That being said, thanks for that picture. I could not find one that showed the backs like that and you're right, but will not work.

      I'll keep doing research and figure something out and post back.

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      Last edited by boostednbagged; 11-27-2019 at 10:04 PM.

    9. #42
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      Who are the "idiots" who might install it wrong? Technicians like myself? Myself, as in one of the several people here trying to explain to you why you can't simply flip it?

    10. #43
      Fun fact, I was 2 teeth off on the exhaust side after the timing belt was done on my Blue car. Drove it for about 200 mile with a CEL on, but the car ran great below 4500. Above 4500 it just ran out of breath. It was 19.8 degrees off on the exhaust side.
      2006 S60R, 90k miles.
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    11. #44
      Member boostednbagged's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Tech View Post
      Who are the "idiots" who might install it wrong? Technicians like myself? Myself, as in one of the several people here trying to explain to you why you can't simply flip it?
      I don't know you so I would not explicitly imply that. But I think it's fair to say there are plenty out there. Regardless, my implication is towards how manufacturers design most everything manufactured these days, to maximize efficiency and quality control. To make it impossible to mess up, even for an idiot.

      And your explanation has no validation. You have no idea how the ECM actually communicates with the sensors. You just know there's notches and they only install one way. Which you are probably absolutely right. But I want to see tech data sheets that explain it. I want to know how it works so I can educate myself and modify it.

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    12. #45
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      Oh I have no idea how it works, huh? You don't know me but you're going to tell me what I do and do not know?

      People have explained it to you. You just dismiss them with things like "that analogy does not apply" when actually it does.
      Last edited by Tech; 11-28-2019 at 08:20 AM.

    13. #46
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      Quote Originally Posted by Tech View Post
      Oh I have no idea how it works, huh? You don't know me but you're going to tell me what I do and do not know?

      People have explained it to you. You just dismiss them with things like "that analogy does not apply" when actually it does.
      If you're a Tech then you should access to data sheets like this.

      Yes, people have explained how the sensor works with VVT very well lol. That's not what I'm after. I want to know if the ECM will read that pulse gear regardless of the housings orientation. Not the gear. I know that can't be rotated. We can stop beating that horse.

      I can't help but think that, If the position of the CMP was soooo important than why is there play in the housing mounting holes. Even millimeters would matter. Why is that housing not mounted with more accuracy like a distributor or something? Why would they not make it different than the exhaust housing and not even possible to mount the wrong way LIKE EVERYTHING ELSE DEALING WITH TIMING?

      If you read this sheet, it really seems like the ECM is only concerned about pulse gaps to determine timing. Not where the CMP is. And that makes sense to me. It sees a certain pulse length and gap and it knows exactly where the camshaft is. Why else would the gear have such differently shaped teeth? Why not just use teeth like the fly wheel?

      Explain that...

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    14. #47
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      Yeah, it reads the pulses, using the gaps to determine position. It bases that determination on knowing where the sensor is reading it from. If you move the sensor 180 degrees, then it will still read the pulses but 180 degrees away from where it should.

      Take your cam sensor and reluctor wheel off. Line up your timing marks on the front. Now mark the back of the cam approximately where the sensor should be, around 1 o'clock. So when that mark passes the sensor, the front mark is lined up. Now rotate the engine until the mark you made on the back of the cam is where you want to put the sensor, about 7 o'clock. Now look at the mark on the front. It's not in the same position.

    15. #48
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      Quote Originally Posted by Tech View Post
      Yeah, it reads the pulses, using the gaps to determine position. It bases that determination on knowing where the sensor is reading it from. If you move the sensor 180 degrees, then it will still read the pulses but 180 degrees away from where it should.

      Take your cam sensor and reluctor wheel off. Line up your timing marks on the front. Now mark the back of the cam approximately where the sensor should be, around 1 o'clock. So when that mark passes the sensor, the front mark is lined up. Now rotate the engine until the mark you made on the back of the cam is where you want to put the sensor, about 7 o'clock. Now look at the mark on the front. It's not in the same position.
      I understand what you're saying now. But how do you know the ECM won't pick up on that? Okay, forget VVT. Let's say it's all fixed. You rotate the engine all you want. That pulse gear will always be in the same relative position to TDC - It will never be 180 out right? So if the different sized teeth are pre-programmed into the ECM for cam position, and we know it uses pulse duration for timing, then regardless of where the CMP is the ECM will still know the position of that camshaft in relation to the rest of the motor.



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    16. #49
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      The only way to solve this is find the code that the ECM runs for vvt. I can't find anything definitive searching online either. I'm about to just flip mine and see wtf happens lol

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    17. #50
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      my god, mark it, slice it , rotate 180 , tack it ... done ... engineers lol
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    18. #51
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      Quote Originally Posted by dougy View Post
      my god, mark it, slice it , rotate 180 , tack it ... done ... engineers lol
      Lmao I suppose that would be the easiest solution

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    19. #52
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      I really don't know how else to explain it to you. I don't know how you think the ECM is supposed to know that you moved the location of the sensor.

    20. #53
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      Quote Originally Posted by boostednbagged View Post
      Lmao I suppose that would be the easiest solution
      Yyyyyeeeaaas.... get an extra one from jy and do it...they are all same with 04 and up with dual vvt's
      1997 Toyota Avalon
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    21. #54
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      Quote Originally Posted by dougy View Post
      Yyyyyeeeaaas.... get an extra one from jy and do it...they are all same with 04 and up with dual vvt's
      no junk yards with volvos anywhere near my town.

      while were on the subject of camshafts... ENEM cams... make a difference with vvt? i cant seem to find any threads of actual dyno numbers. did enem stop making the vvt cams? i only see fixed ones on their website.

    22. #55
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      Quote Originally Posted by boostednbagged View Post
      no junk yards with volvos anywhere near my town.

      while were on the subject of camshafts... ENEM cams... make a difference with vvt? i cant seem to find any threads of actual dyno numbers. did enem stop making the vvt cams? i only see fixed ones on their website.
      i never used them, but people that paid 1000's of $ for them swear by them.

      https://www.vivaperformance.com/perf...mshafts-volvo/
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    23. #56
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      You are giving WAY too much credit to engine control modules. If you were building homes and the code requires 2 x 6 lumber for roof to meet all engineering and legal codes then you would not put 2 x 10 lumber in roof. Volvo or any other car maker does not have any need for software to adapt position sensors to any casual place you cared to install it. Why would they bother to precisely index slots on cams and then manufacture the profile sleeves with precisely located tabs to fit into those cam slots. The cam lobe phasing is critical to emissions and to optimal performance. That can't be adjusted by sensing of crankshaft rhythm or by acceleration and deceleration analysis of same. The variables in making those decisions would require a far greater ($$$) processor power and more signal accuracy from sensors. The auto trans models would require billet precisely made aperture surface. All that extra expense is completely eliminated by having the indexing of components done during the mostly roboticized manufacture. The emissions targets are also assured in this way at least cost. I can assure you that no car manufacturer spends a dime making the systems tolerant of driveway engineers after they spent the millions setting up assured ways of producing consistent engines with assured compliance with their manufacturing methods and tooling. TO the contrary, they do spend some coins detecting out of line conditions they know have emissions or engine destruction risks. Some of the aftermarket fuel systems have some great adaptivity to wide ranging conditions as the buyers will install that hardware on lots of different things. Those guys have little or no concern with the law and fines that new car makers have to operate under. Those systems also require you to manually select some parameters. If there was a programmable parameter for alternate CMPS location provided by Volvo then what you want would work. If the engine does start after moving the profile sleeve to another location then FMEM will ditate a safe run control of timing, fuel, and CVVT control that will leave you with a crap running engine. When I was doing training and bugging cars with Dremeled off lugs I found that they would not start. Unplugging the CMPS would allow start after long crank with low performance on P2 as of 2001 as I recall with Bosch. Denso had the FMEM to run engine in 99, again not a 100% assured recollection. There have been a lot of models and a lot of year to year changes and even changes resulting from software revisions.
      2004 V70R GT 255K miles purchased 9/15/12. Had several R company cars in the past and had to have one of my own.
      OBX DP but I've only just begun.............
      2010 XC60 T6 RD
      Several farm trucks, tractors, trailers, and a Suzuki Carry Kei truck.

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