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    1. #1
      Member Exocet's Avatar
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      This May Not Be Good

      I've been trying to find the cause of a high frequency vibration under acceleration for a few months. Feels like a bad bearing. Found a bad wheel bearing and replaced it. No change. Replaced both axles and the other wheel bearing. No change. So, before tearing back into things, I pulled a sample of transmission fluid (out of the dipstick tube) to hopefully rule out any transaxle problems.

      Well, got the results today. It starts with "there's a lot of metal in this sample". There's 20k miles on the fluid. Did a flush (Gibbon's method, 16 qts total) of the original fluid at 147k miles.

      So, the results:

      Aluminum: 61, Avg-21

      Copper: 192, Avg-85

      Lead: 105, Avg-31

      Average is for a Volvo automatic with 25k miles on the fluid.

      So, not pretty and could be indicative of a bad bearing in the transaxle. It shifts fine.

      So, how do I verify that something is wrong with the transaxle? I can pull the drain plug and see if there's any "glitter". Pulling the transmission is obvious a major and expensive effort. So, I want to be positive before I go down that path.
      2007 Volvo V70 2.5T - Mine
      2008 Nissan Titan SE 4x4, Crew Cab, Long Bed - Also Mine
      2012 Toyota Camry LE, 2.4 - Wife's
      2003 Mazda Protege5, 2.0 - Daughter #1
      2010 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2.5 - Daughter #2

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    3. #2
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      Torque converter, maybe? Try to add some Lubegard HFM, 2-4 oz max, and see what happens next.

    4. #3
      Member Exocet's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by vtl View Post
      Torque converter, maybe? Try to add some Lubegard HFM, 2-4 oz max, and see what happens next.
      The aluminum, copper, and lead seems to be more like a bearing. But, not sure what a bad torque converter would look like.
      2007 Volvo V70 2.5T - Mine
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      2012 Toyota Camry LE, 2.4 - Wife's
      2003 Mazda Protege5, 2.0 - Daughter #1
      2010 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2.5 - Daughter #2

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    6. #4
      Senior Member ScottishBrick's Avatar
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      Im more sold on the wear metal being clutches. Bearings should be steel and chromium hardface.
      2003 V70 T5 - Mystic/Graphite - M56LK - 195k - "O-Three"
      1999 V70 T5 - Pewter/R Graphite & Alcantara - AW42 - 287k - Work Wagon/Daily
      1999 V70 T5 - Nautic/R Graphite & Alcantara - M56H - 173k - Rescue Project
      1999 V70 T5 - Emerald/Graphite - M56H - 119k - Garage Queen
      2000 V70 T5 - Mystic/Graphite - AW42 - 235k - Moms Unicorn
      2000 S70 GLT SE- Mystic/Graphite - AW42 - 208k - Sisters

    7. #5
      Member Exocet's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by ScottishBrick View Post
      Im more sold on the wear metal being clutches. Bearings should be steel and chromium hardface.
      I guess I was thinking more like engine bearings, which have softer metals, than a roller bearing. Aluminum, copper, and lead are all very common in engine type bearings.
      2007 Volvo V70 2.5T - Mine
      2008 Nissan Titan SE 4x4, Crew Cab, Long Bed - Also Mine
      2012 Toyota Camry LE, 2.4 - Wife's
      2003 Mazda Protege5, 2.0 - Daughter #1
      2010 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2.5 - Daughter #2

    8. #6
      Member Exocet's Avatar
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      Here's the generic explanation from Blackstone Labs:

      Aluminum:*Housing, bearings, oil pump, gear and vane pumps
      Chromium:*Ball and roller bearings, alloy of steel parts like gears
      Iron:*Gears, bearings, shafts, some cases, clutch plates
      Copper:*Bronze bushings, oil cooler oxides, clutch plates, brass fittings
      Lead:*Residual gear marking compound, alloy of bronze

      I sent them additional info on history and symptoms. We'll see what they come back with.
      2007 Volvo V70 2.5T - Mine
      2008 Nissan Titan SE 4x4, Crew Cab, Long Bed - Also Mine
      2012 Toyota Camry LE, 2.4 - Wife's
      2003 Mazda Protege5, 2.0 - Daughter #1
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    9. #7
      Senior Member ZZZZZZZ's Avatar
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      I can imagine how stressful that would be. Youíve certainly put a lot of love into it and it shows.
      Maybe Iím crazy but why would you go to the doctor if there are no symptoms? Thatís asking for a diagnosis, isnít it? You said it shifts fine. Vibration can still be the tires or whatever. Have you run a totally different set of wheels and eliminated that too, after bearing and axle replacements?
      "The Real IPD" - ZZZZZZZ's thread
      2007 Passion Red/Gobi VRgt; 2005 Silver/Beige Leather S60 2.5T AWD; 2002 Silver/Off black leather V70XC
      Past: 1999 Tropic Blue/Green/Oak leather V70 (NAa); Mom traded 1975 Maroon/Maroon leather 164E

    10. #8
      Member Exocet's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by ZZZZZZZ View Post
      I can imagine how stressful that would be. Youíve certainly put a lot of love into it and it shows.
      Maybe Iím crazy but why would you go to the doctor if there are no symptoms? Thatís asking for a diagnosis, isnít it? You said it shifts fine. Vibration can still be the tires or whatever. Have you run a totally different set of wheels and eliminated that too, after bearing and axle replacements?
      The vibration is there regardless of whether I have the summer tires/wheels or the winter tires/wheels. So, that variable can be eliminated.

      The problem is that I had too many variables in play when it started. New tires, bad wheel bearing, disassembled axles to replace CV boots, and loose ball joints.

      I did the oil analysis to hopefully exonerate the transmission as a possible source so I could just look at external moving parts.
      Last edited by Exocet; 11-09-2019 at 09:45 AM.
      2007 Volvo V70 2.5T - Mine
      2008 Nissan Titan SE 4x4, Crew Cab, Long Bed - Also Mine
      2012 Toyota Camry LE, 2.4 - Wife's
      2003 Mazda Protege5, 2.0 - Daughter #1
      2010 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2.5 - Daughter #2

    11. #9
      Senior Member ZZZZZZZ's Avatar
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      How bad is it? I guess itís a matter of trying to determine if itís worth losing sleep over or worth getting a manual swap if it eventually gives up the ghost.
      Quote Originally Posted by Exocet View Post
      The vibration is there regardless of whether I have the summer tires/wheels or the winter tires/wheels. So, that variable can be eliminated.

      The problem is that I had too many variables in play when it started. New tires, bad wheel bearing, disassembled axles to replace CV boots, and loose ball joints.

      I did the oil analysis to hopefully exonerate the transmission as a possible source so I could just look at external moving parts.



      Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
      "The Real IPD" - ZZZZZZZ's thread
      2007 Passion Red/Gobi VRgt; 2005 Silver/Beige Leather S60 2.5T AWD; 2002 Silver/Off black leather V70XC
      Past: 1999 Tropic Blue/Green/Oak leather V70 (NAa); Mom traded 1975 Maroon/Maroon leather 164E

    12. #10
      Senior Member ScottishBrick's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by ZZZZZZZ View Post
      How bad is it? I guess itís a matter of trying to determine if itís worth losing sleep over or worth getting a manual swap if it eventually gives up the ghost.




      Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
      Aw55 swap on a fwd is cheapish and can be done at home.

      However M56/66 would be most delightful to drive. Just have to get 05+ stuff
      2003 V70 T5 - Mystic/Graphite - M56LK - 195k - "O-Three"
      1999 V70 T5 - Pewter/R Graphite & Alcantara - AW42 - 287k - Work Wagon/Daily
      1999 V70 T5 - Nautic/R Graphite & Alcantara - M56H - 173k - Rescue Project
      1999 V70 T5 - Emerald/Graphite - M56H - 119k - Garage Queen
      2000 V70 T5 - Mystic/Graphite - AW42 - 235k - Moms Unicorn
      2000 S70 GLT SE- Mystic/Graphite - AW42 - 208k - Sisters

    13. #11
      Member Exocet's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by ZZZZZZZ View Post
      How bad is it? I guess itís a matter of trying to determine if itís worth losing sleep over or worth getting a manual swap if it eventually gives up the ghost.




      Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
      It's at the annoying stage now. The car is nowhere as smooth as it used to be when accelerating. I'm still going to take a look at the LF wheel bearing and axle, since this started to show up about the time those were messed with. Still hoping it's the cheap aftermarket axle I threw in while chasing a clunking noise.

      I need a really good reason before condemning the transmission. So, I need to be positive about everything else that was done. Even if I find an another source, the transmission fluid analysis could be an indicator of a looming issue.
      2007 Volvo V70 2.5T - Mine
      2008 Nissan Titan SE 4x4, Crew Cab, Long Bed - Also Mine
      2012 Toyota Camry LE, 2.4 - Wife's
      2003 Mazda Protege5, 2.0 - Daughter #1
      2010 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2.5 - Daughter #2

    14. #12
      Member Exocet's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by ScottishBrick View Post
      Aw55 swap on a fwd is cheapish and can be done at home.

      However M56/66 would be most delightful to drive. Just have to get 05+ stuff
      If it comes to that, since it involves dropping the subframe, it's more than I care to deal with anymore. I'd throw in new subframe mounts and a new rear main seal while it's apart. I can get a low mileage AW55 from Erie Vovo for about $1k. Throw in a new filter and seals. Don't know how many hours are involved to replace the transmission.

      I think subconsciously I want an excuse for a manual swap since I recently hit the point where I've had an automatic longer than a manual (18 yrs vs 17 yrs). My youngest daughter would love it because she wants to learn how to drive a manual.
      Last edited by Exocet; 11-09-2019 at 11:45 AM.
      2007 Volvo V70 2.5T - Mine
      2008 Nissan Titan SE 4x4, Crew Cab, Long Bed - Also Mine
      2012 Toyota Camry LE, 2.4 - Wife's
      2003 Mazda Protege5, 2.0 - Daughter #1
      2010 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2.5 - Daughter #2

    15. #13
      Senior Member ZZZZZZZ's Avatar
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      Iíd LOVE to take my VR to a manual. Itís just that I have no cash or time for that and the car is fine the way it is so far. Perhaps one day in the future.
      Quote Originally Posted by Exocet View Post
      I think subconsciously I want an excuse for a manual swap since I recently hit the point where I've had an automatic longer than a manual (18 yrs vs 17 yrs).
      "The Real IPD" - ZZZZZZZ's thread
      2007 Passion Red/Gobi VRgt; 2005 Silver/Beige Leather S60 2.5T AWD; 2002 Silver/Off black leather V70XC
      Past: 1999 Tropic Blue/Green/Oak leather V70 (NAa); Mom traded 1975 Maroon/Maroon leather 164E

    16. #14
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      Quote Originally Posted by Exocet View Post
      Don't know how many hours are involved to replace the transmission.
      3 evenings with downpipe, new turbo, new exhaust manifold gaskets and RMS.

    17. #15
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      Quote Originally Posted by Exocet View Post
      The aluminum, copper, and lead seems to be more like a bearing. But, not sure what a bad torque converter would look like.
      Aluminum is a differential housing which is typically abused and typically needs reshimming.

      Copper and lead are friction plates. Friction plate dies first in torque converter.

      Add HFM, if it smooths things out - that is friction plates for sure.

    18. #16
      Member Exocet's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by vtl View Post
      Aluminum is a differential housing which is typically abused and typically needs reshimming.

      Copper and lead are friction plates. Friction plate dies first in torque converter.

      Add HFM, if it smooths things out - that is friction plates for sure.
      I'll give the Lubegard a shot.

      What's involved with shimming the diff housing?
      2007 Volvo V70 2.5T - Mine
      2008 Nissan Titan SE 4x4, Crew Cab, Long Bed - Also Mine
      2012 Toyota Camry LE, 2.4 - Wife's
      2003 Mazda Protege5, 2.0 - Daughter #1
      2010 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2.5 - Daughter #2

    19. #17
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      Quote Originally Posted by Exocet View Post
      What's involved with shimming the diff housing?
      Taking transmission out and splitting in in halves...

      You can check the output hall sensor - it is typically has a fine shaved metal particles magnetized to it. And there's typically a lot of play in a differential.

    20. #18
      Member Exocet's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by vtl View Post
      Taking transmission out and splitting in in halves...

      You can check the output hall sensor - it is typically has a fine shaved metal particles magnetized to it. And there's typically a lot of play in a differential.
      If it has to come out and be opened up, something else will be going in!
      2007 Volvo V70 2.5T - Mine
      2008 Nissan Titan SE 4x4, Crew Cab, Long Bed - Also Mine
      2012 Toyota Camry LE, 2.4 - Wife's
      2003 Mazda Protege5, 2.0 - Daughter #1
      2010 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2.5 - Daughter #2

    21. #19
      Member Racer_S's Avatar
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      To add to vtl's post, I'm pretty sure the transmission drain plug has a magnet aswell.
      2004 XC70 2.5T AWD Crystal Green Pearl/Charcoal [230K] Mud Guards, 05- Wiper Arms, 305mm brake upgrade, Full LED Exterior, 1-inch lift Pic
      2003 XC70 2.5T AWD Silver/Charcoal [180K] XeMODeX, Mud Guards, 05- Wiper Arms, LED Headlights
      2004 S80 2.5T AWD Crystal Green Pearl/Light Sand [240K] Bi-Xenon, LED Foglights, 07 Turbo and rear diff

    22. #20
      Member Exocet's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Racer_S View Post
      To add to vtl's post, I'm pretty sure the transmission drain plug has a magnet aswell.
      Yes, it does. It was pretty clean 20k miles ago.
      2007 Volvo V70 2.5T - Mine
      2008 Nissan Titan SE 4x4, Crew Cab, Long Bed - Also Mine
      2012 Toyota Camry LE, 2.4 - Wife's
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    23. #21
      Member Racer_S's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Exocet View Post
      Yes, it does. It was pretty clean 20k miles ago.
      OK, I have a bit of a vibration on acceleration sometimes. I read somewhere it could be the TCC solenoid.

      This solenoid is Pulse Width Modulated (PWM) and operates at a fixed frequency of 300 Hz (cycles per second) and from 0.0 to 1.1 amps.
      You can see the data graph of TCC modulation with VIDA
      2004 XC70 2.5T AWD Crystal Green Pearl/Charcoal [230K] Mud Guards, 05- Wiper Arms, 305mm brake upgrade, Full LED Exterior, 1-inch lift Pic
      2003 XC70 2.5T AWD Silver/Charcoal [180K] XeMODeX, Mud Guards, 05- Wiper Arms, LED Headlights
      2004 S80 2.5T AWD Crystal Green Pearl/Light Sand [240K] Bi-Xenon, LED Foglights, 07 Turbo and rear diff

    24. #22
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      Quote Originally Posted by Racer_S View Post
      OK, I have a bit of a vibration on acceleration sometimes. I read somewhere it could be the TCC solenoid.
      You can see the data graph of TCC modulation with VIDA
      SLU solenoid modulates the lockup function. Torque converter works in 3 modes: unlocked (SLU current is 0.2A), locked (1A) and partially slipping (0.4-0.6A). SLU is tuned for a narrow range of operation, in expectation of 116150 ATF, which has a bit higher viscosity and better friction additives pack than most of other JWS3309-compatible fluids. When friction modifiers are wear out or they were low to start with, TC can lock and unlock quickly on its own in the controller slip.

      Now, friction modifiers that are used in transmission with controlled slipping mode, they actually reduce friction. The modifier soaks into clutch plates and allows a bit of slipping. The friction material on clutch packs surface still wears out, so does the soaked modifiers. ATF supplements a replacement modifiers. When ATF has no more friction modifiers left, clutch packs start to grab earlier - gear shifts are more pronounced and you may even feel a slight shudder when transmission is in partial slipping mode. ATF may be red and clear, but dull.

    25. #23
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      Before delving into the trans check the front axles. On our XC70 the right front axle inner CV joint boot had split and wear had occurred. Oddly if you were not accelerating it would smooth right out. Also would smooth out at 80 mph.

      On inspection the axle halves could be moved vertically with reference to one another about an eigth of an inch.

      Replaced it with a relatively low mileage (90 K mile) 2007 right side front axle and all good now.

      In chasing this, changed spark plugs, then coils, to no avail - always vibrating on acceleration.
      Last edited by zak; 11-14-2019 at 04:41 PM.

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