Trying to pinpoint possible AWD/Angle gear failure - 04 XC
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    1. #1
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      Trying to pinpoint possible AWD/Angle gear failure - 04 XC

      On my drive to the gym last night I stopped to fuel up. Leaving the station I made a 45 degree left turn and accelerated into the lane. I felt and heard a big clunk (like if you were running over a box of shoes) and immediately something was not right. I had no lights on the dash and the car felt fine, at this point I was babying it to the gym. Getting off the highway about a mile later I realized something was not right, particularly when taking a hard left or right at slow speeds and feeling like my wheel was loose and about to fall off (my initial thought). Drove home and today I replaced the drivers axle shaft with the same noise and feel at slow speeds with the wheel turned left or right almost full lock. I put the car up in the air and did some tests but was confused when the back wheels weren't spinning? Aren't the rears supposed to spin when there is no traction up front? I also heard this noise that only happened when the car was up in the air. At this point, I'm pretty lost on to what the culprit to the problem could be. In park off the ground, both front wheels and rears spun freely which I don't think is right. Driveshaft is not loose or have wiggle room around angle gear. But slowly turns when the car is in drive and idling however the rear wheels don't move at all. VIDA shows nothing and no faults. I got this car with 68k and have done two transmission flushes since (105k now), transmission has no issues. I've topped off TC with gear fluid around 80k miles. I did have an issue with my AWD module that I replaced and filled with correct level fluid (or so I think). I will be checking fluid levels tomorrow. Any thoughts on what's going on? I did take some quick videos to help share an idea of what's going on.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bsDKwMFShnw

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EZywzkJMylY

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCrCOlJIdQM

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QhfaO3Gx-ek

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    3. #2
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      Your collar sleeve broke. If it's the first one, your transfer case has enough of teeth left for the replacement collar sleeve, which is like $145 in parts. It will buy you another few years, then it will strip again and then you'll need a replacement transfer case ($1500). At that point you may get rid of car or buy a used transfer case with good teeth.

      Or you can attach the collar sleeve to the transfer case's input shaft with the weld seams, or something along that way.

    4. #3
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      The reason of why "something is not right" is a tremendous torque steer effect that turbo AWD car has when it looses the rear axle traction unexpectedly. The ECM expects the rear axle to kick in via Haldex and take care of torque distribution, so it does not limit engine's power beyond of what AW55 asks for in first two gears, which is still like 180 ft lbs. Almost the same setup - S60/V70 turbo, but FWD by design, and it does it right from the standstill. In FWD XC70 you better keep the steering wheel with your both hands

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    6. #4
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      Quote Originally Posted by vtl View Post
      Your collar sleeve broke. If it's the first one, your transfer case has enough of teeth left for the replacement collar sleeve, which is like $145 in parts. It will buy you another few years, then it will strip again and then you'll need a replacement transfer case ($1500). At that point you may get rid of car or buy a used transfer case with good teeth.

      Or you can attach the collar sleeve to the transfer case's input shaft with the weld seams, or something along that way.
      Thanks for the information. Just what I needed, another project.

    7. #5
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      Quote Originally Posted by boosted_xc70 View Post
      Thanks for the information. Just what I needed, another project.
      I usually wait until something else break in that area, so I don't have to take everything apart twice.


    8. #6
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      Quote Originally Posted by boosted_xc70 View Post
      On my drive to the gym last night I stopped to fuel up. Leaving the station I made a 45 degree left turn and accelerated into the lane. I felt and heard a big clunk (like if you were running over a box of shoes) and immediately something was not right. I had no lights on the dash and the car felt fine, at this point I was babying it to the gym. Getting off the highway about a mile later I realized something was not right, particularly when taking a hard left or right at slow speeds and feeling like my wheel was loose and about to fall off (my initial thought). Drove home and today I replaced the drivers axle shaft with the same noise and feel at slow speeds with the wheel turned left or right almost full lock. I put the car up in the air and did some tests but was confused when the back wheels weren't spinning? Aren't the rears supposed to spin when there is no traction up front? I also heard this noise that only happened when the car was up in the air. At this point, I'm pretty lost on to what the culprit to the problem could be. In park off the ground, both front wheels and rears spun freely which I don't think is right. Driveshaft is not loose or have wiggle room around angle gear. But slowly turns when the car is in drive and idling however the rear wheels don't move at all. VIDA shows nothing and no faults. I got this car with 68k and have done two transmission flushes since (105k now), transmission has no issues. I've topped off TC with gear fluid around 80k miles. I did have an issue with my AWD module that I replaced and filled with correct level fluid (or so I think). I will be checking fluid levels tomorrow. Any thoughts on what's going on? I did take some quick videos to help share an idea of what's going on.
      Quote Originally Posted by vtl View Post
      Your collar sleeve broke. If it's the first one, your transfer case has enough of teeth left for the replacement collar sleeve, which is like $145 in parts. It will buy you another few years, then it will strip again and then you'll need a replacement transfer case ($1500). At that point you may get rid of car or buy a used transfer case with good teeth.

      Or you can attach the collar sleeve to the transfer case's input shaft with the weld seams, or something along that way.

      I may be wrong, but that doesn't sound right to me. If his collar sleeve stripped out then wouldn't the driveshaft not move? Easy test (that I know of) for collar sleeve is if you can spin the shaft by hand with the wheels on the ground, then the sleeve is stripped.

      If that's not the case, then would suspect a haldex issue.

      I could just be reading it wrong but the way I'm understanding it, it doesn't sound right to me.

      EDIT: Nevermind. Watched the videos and I see now. Should probably stop driving it like that before you grind off what's left of the teeth. That noise makes me cringe .
      Last edited by TGO; 11-12-2019 at 09:42 AM.
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    9. #7
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      The AWD traction system is based on the info pouring in from the 4 wheel speed sensors. You can't really fully test the rear wheel drive by jacking up the car off the ground...the 4 wheels rotate at the same speed, with almost no torque load, and with 90% of torque delivered to the fronts. If the rear wheels fail to turn at all, that would indicate 100% loss of torque somewhere between the angle gear, prop shaft and Haldex.

      A better test of the rear wheel power response is to stop with the front wheels on a low-traction surface (ice, wet cardboard) and the rears on good traction surface. As you accelerate fwd, the front wheels lose traction and spin faster than the rear wheels...the computer responds to this difference by engaging the Haldex clutch, transferring up to 50% of torque to the rear wheels. If its working you should begin rolling forward despite the front wheel slippage.

      Are you getting any ABS warning messages? If a wheel sensor is going bad, the computer reports an "ABS System Needs Service" alert to the console. VIDA scan will pinpoint the errant wheel sensor.

      A shot wheel sensor can trick the ABS system into pulsing the brakes in bursts, which makes a "thump, thump" sound and gyration. Your "driving over a shoebox" reminded me of that experience.
      Last edited by pbierre; 11-12-2019 at 06:03 PM.

    10. #8
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      In Park, the front wheels should be locked by the pawl in the tranny. You're either not really in P (gear shift switch assy. problem), or the pawl has been severed off...you would then have a chunk of steel lying in the bottom of the tranny (the pawl pin). When you changed the tranny fluid, did you look for metal chaff?

    11. #9
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      Quote Originally Posted by pbierre View Post
      The AWD traction system is based on the info pouring in from the 4 wheel speed sensors. You can't really fully test the rear wheel drive by jacking up the car off the ground...the 4 wheels rotate at the same speed, with almost no torque load, and with 90% of torque delivered to the fronts. If the rear wheels fail to turn at all, that would indicate 100% loss of torque somewhere between the angle gear, prop shaft and Haldex.

      A better test of the rear wheel power response is to stop with the front wheels on a low-traction surface (ice, wet cardboard) and the rears on good traction surface. As you accelerate fwd, the front wheels lose traction and spin faster than the rear wheels...the computer responds to this difference by engaging the Haldex clutch, transferring up to 50% of torque to the rear wheels. If its working you should begin rolling forward despite the front wheel slippage.

      Are you getting any ABS warning messages? If a wheel sensor is going bad, the computer reports an "ABS System Needs Service" alert to the console. VIDA scan will pinpoint the errant wheel sensor.

      A shot wheel sensor can trick the ABS system into pulsing the brakes in bursts, which makes a "thump, thump" sound and gyration. Your "driving over a shoebox" reminded me of that experience.
      No messages on dash or VIDA of any kind, that's what puzzles me. By a wheel sensor, do you mean the abs sensors on the knuckle on each corner? The "thump, thump" sound is exactly what I heard, however no lights on the dash. Making a sharp turn say from a stop sign if felt like the front wheel was "wobbling" and about to fall off. That's what initially led me to think an axle shaft.

      To answer your second comment, I haven't changed trans fluid since, I just stated that before to indicate the trans should be in good shape as I believe I take decent care of it (ie dont drive it too hard, I know the trans doesn't like getting hot). The wheels were free spinning with the car in park with the car jacked up off the ground.
      Last edited by boosted_xc70; 11-13-2019 at 05:52 PM.

    12. #10
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      Quote Originally Posted by TGO View Post
      I may be wrong, but that doesn't sound right to me. If his collar sleeve stripped out then wouldn't the driveshaft not move? Easy test (that I know of) for collar sleeve is if you can spin the shaft by hand with the wheels on the ground, then the sleeve is stripped.

      If that's not the case, then would suspect a haldex issue.

      I could just be reading it wrong but the way I'm understanding it, it doesn't sound right to me.

      EDIT: Nevermind. Watched the videos and I see now. Should probably stop driving it like that before you grind off what's left of the teeth. That noise makes me cringe .
      Is that the noise of the collar sleeve stripped? I really need to put the car on the lift to see if driveshaft moves on its own, but it didn't seem to budge when I reached under and tried to get a grip.

    13. #11
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      Quote Originally Posted by boosted_xc70 View Post
      Is that the noise of the collar sleeve stripped? I really need to put the car on the lift to see if driveshaft moves on its own, but it didn't seem to budge when I reached under and tried to get a grip.
      Yes. And it's a death spiral for the transfer case: you may replace collar sleeve one or two more times, but it will be stripping quicker and quicker.

    14. #12
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      Quote Originally Posted by boosted_xc70 View Post
      Is that the noise of the collar sleeve stripped? I really need to put the car on the lift to see if driveshaft moves on its own, but it didn't seem to budge when I reached under and tried to get a grip.
      Yeah. You can see it's got just enough purchase to grip a little bit but once the haldex applies a load, it slips and grinds.

      Otherwise, a failure of that type will not cause any codes AFAIK. Most of us with P2's have been through this, including myself, and never had any codes or warning lights. AWD just stopped working. Which is a bit of an oxymoron...because technically the haldex is working properly. It's just not getting turning force form the driveshaft. Which it doesn't know.
      2002 XC70 2.4T - "Orca"
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      Quote Originally Posted by vtl View Post
      Yes. And it's a death spiral for the transfer case: you may replace collar sleeve one or two more times, but it will be stripping quicker and quicker.
      I appreciate the feedback. I have been reading threads and getting that sleeve out looks like a 10 hour fight.

    16. #14
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      Quote Originally Posted by TGO View Post
      Yeah. You can see it's got just enough purchase to grip a little bit but once the haldex applies a load, it slips and grinds.

      Otherwise, a failure of that type will not cause any codes AFAIK. Most of us with P2's have been through this, including myself, and never had any codes or warning lights. AWD just stopped working. Which is a bit of an oxymoron...because technically the haldex is working properly. It's just not getting turning force form the driveshaft. Which it doesn't know.
      I have used my AWD all of twice with this car. If this car would last another 3 years I will be happy, which sounds like the lifespan of the new collar sleeve I'll be installing, and then i'll move into something newer or FWD.

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      Quote Originally Posted by boosted_xc70 View Post
      I appreciate the feedback. I have been reading threads and getting that sleeve out looks like a 10 hour fight.
      It took me maybe 5 minutes with this kit: https://www.amazon.com/Bearing-Pulle.../dp/B017XDLDDY



      Taking out passenger axle can be challenging the first time, however it is possible to take it out without fully disassembling the strut/wheel hub.

      Get a long torx set for the propeller shaft bolt, and a few extensions.

      I would not say it is super-hard. Definitely not 10 hours, maybe 2, including consuming couple of beers.

    18. #16
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      Quote Originally Posted by boosted_xc70 View Post
      I have used my AWD all of twice with this car. If this car would last another 3 years I will be happy, which sounds like the lifespan of the new collar sleeve I'll be installing, and then i'll move into something newer or FWD.
      I mean...you could run it FWD with no issues. I remember when mine broke on my S60R. I was parked and it had snowed the night before. So when I went to drive out of my spot the wheels spun a little bit and as soon as the haldex grabbed the collar sleeve stripped. I didn't know what it was at the time. There was just a clunk like a stuck brake pad. Which happens sometimes with the snow and salt....rotors rust quickly here. But yeah, it turned out to be that. I honestly didn't even notice because I had blizzaks on the car for winter anyway. I went through the rest of the winter with no idea there was anything wrong.

      It always seemed to me that the manual transmission cars were more prone to this type of failure than automatics. Mine was a manual. My XC has almost 240k miles on it and it's fine...but IDK if the collar sleeve has ever been replaced before. My car isn't haldex though.

      Overall it's just a poor design. I think Volvo did make a revised collar over the years but idk. There's also that guy who sells hardened steel ones. Some people just weld them as well.
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      Quote Originally Posted by TGO View Post
      My XC has almost 240k miles on it and it's fine...but IDK if the collar sleeve has ever been replaced before. My car isn't haldex though.
      Visco coupler does not wind up like Haldex does, so it rarely if ever strips the collar sleeve.

    20. #18
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      Quote Originally Posted by vtl View Post
      It took me maybe 5 minutes with this kit: https://www.amazon.com/Bearing-Pulle.../dp/B017XDLDDY



      Taking out passenger axle can be challenging the first time, however it is possible to take it out without fully disassembling the strut/wheel hub.

      Get a long torx set for the propeller shaft bolt, and a few extensions.

      I would not say it is super-hard. Definitely not 10 hours, maybe 2, including consuming couple of beers.
      Not concerned with the axle shaft, I've done plenty. And luckily I have a lift. I will definitely be looking at getting a tool like this before I tear into the car - thanks for the link.

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      Any maintenance/precautionary work to do on the TC while it's out?

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      Quote Originally Posted by TGO View Post
      I mean...you could run it FWD with no issues. I remember when mine broke on my S60R. I was parked and it had snowed the night before. So when I went to drive out of my spot the wheels spun a little bit and as soon as the haldex grabbed the collar sleeve stripped. I didn't know what it was at the time. There was just a clunk like a stuck brake pad. Which happens sometimes with the snow and salt....rotors rust quickly here. But yeah, it turned out to be that. I honestly didn't even notice because I had blizzaks on the car for winter anyway. I went through the rest of the winter with no idea there was anything wrong.

      It always seemed to me that the manual transmission cars were more prone to this type of failure than automatics. Mine was a manual. My XC has almost 240k miles on it and it's fine...but IDK if the collar sleeve has ever been replaced before. My car isn't haldex though.

      Overall it's just a poor design. I think Volvo did make a revised collar over the years but idk. There's also that guy who sells hardened steel ones. Some people just weld them as well.
      I think I'm just going to fix it, Im not too intimidated by it besides pulling the collar sleeve out. I just need this car to last me through college and then any more miles I get out of it will be gravy.

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      Quote Originally Posted by boosted_xc70 View Post
      I think I'm just going to fix it, Im not too intimidated by it besides pulling the collar sleeve out. I just need this car to last me through college and then any more miles I get out of it will be gravy.
      Collar sleeve is 5 minutes job with that reverse hammer, I'm not exaggerating it.

      Quote Originally Posted by boosted_xc70 View Post
      Any maintenance/precautionary work to do on the TC while it's out?
      Small seal on the passenger side is likely damaged. Cheap and easy to replace.

      Drain the TC thoroughly while you can simply flip it.

      Inspect teeth on the shaft. It makes sense to buy a used unit with good teeth. Volvo later started to temper collar sleeve and it does not strip as easily, but if the TC shaft has the teeth partially stripped - it is one leg in a grave.

      I was going to get a rebuilt unit from Europe, but was not able to fine a way how to pay them =) Got a used unit from ErieVovo taken out of 2007 XC70 - it has perfect teeth! Just had to replace broken seal, put new breather and fill it up.

    24. #22
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      Quote Originally Posted by vtl View Post
      Collar sleeve is 5 minutes job with that reverse hammer, I'm not exaggerating it.


      Small seal on the passenger side is likely damaged. Cheap and easy to replace.

      Drain the TC thoroughly while you can simply flip it.

      Inspect teeth on the shaft. It makes sense to buy a used unit with good teeth. Volvo later started to temper collar sleeve and it does not strip as easily, but if the TC shaft has the teeth partially stripped - it is one leg in a grave.

      I was going to get a rebuilt unit from Europe, but was not able to fine a way how to pay them =) Got a used unit from ErieVovo taken out of 2007 XC70 - it has perfect teeth! Just had to replace broken seal, put new breather and fill it up.
      I will definitely pick one up. Would rather spend $50 and have an easy job then be cheap and fight it for longer. I will replace seal and drain fluid. At 100k miles do you think my teeth will be ok? I have an extra TC just in case.


      Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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      Quote Originally Posted by boosted_xc70 View Post
      I will definitely pick one up. Would rather spend $50 and have an easy job then be cheap and fight it for longer. I will replace seal and drain fluid. At 100k miles do you think my teeth will be ok? I have an extra TC just in case.
      Stripped collar sleeve guarantees damaged teeth on transfer case's shaft.

    26. #24
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      Quote Originally Posted by vtl View Post
      Collar sleeve is 5 minutes job with that reverse hammer, I'm not exaggerating it.


      Small seal on the passenger side is likely damaged. Cheap and easy to replace.

      Drain the TC thoroughly while you can simply flip it.

      Inspect teeth on the shaft. It makes sense to buy a used unit with good teeth. Volvo later started to temper collar sleeve and it does not strip as easily, but if the TC shaft has the teeth partially stripped - it is one leg in a grave.

      I was going to get a rebuilt unit from Europe, but was not able to fine a way how to pay them =) Got a used unit from ErieVovo taken out of 2007 XC70 - it has perfect teeth! Just had to replace broken seal, put new breather and fill it up.
      I used the kit that you linked and it took me about 15 seconds to pull the collar sleeve out, it was literally almost too easy. Now that the transfer case is out, I see some residue of fluid coming out of the seal where the P axle shaft goes through- this will definitely be replaced. Ordering FCP Angle Gear Service Gear now: https://www.fcpeuro.com/products/vol...e-kit-30787988

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      Pictures of the carnage:

      To my surprise, teeth on the TC appear to have survived the beating and are perfect


      Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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      Teeth are almost fully eaten. Replace angle gear.

    29. #27
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      Quote Originally Posted by vtl View Post
      Teeth are almost fully eaten. Replace angle gear.
      I'm dumb, I didn't look at the full length of the teeth. I have another angle gear with good teeth, so thankfully I won't have to buy one.

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      Quote Originally Posted by boosted_xc70 View Post
      I'm dumb, I didn't look at the full length of the teeth. I have another angle gear with good teeth, so thankfully I won't have to buy one.
      What year is it? I did a lazy *ss mistake: installed a new to me AG w/o resealing it first. Sure thing: it lost half of gear oil in 600 miles run. Had to take it out again, split, clean, put new seals and O-ring, file a chamfer, lay a bead of expensive Volvo pink sealant, use new bolts. I had a new bearings ready, however replacing them requires re-shimming the hypoid and resetting backlash, I was not inclined for that. Maybe another lazy *ss mistake
      Last edited by vtl; 12-08-2019 at 10:04 PM.

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      Quote Originally Posted by vtl View Post
      What year is it? I did a lazy *ss mistake: installed a new to me AG w/o resealing it first. Sure thing: it lost half of gear oil in 600 miles run. Had to take it out again, split, clean, put new seals and O-ring, file a chamfer, lay a bead of expensive Volvo pink sealant, use new bolts. I had a new bearings ready, however replacing them requires re-shimming the hypoid and resetting backlash, I was not inclined for that. Maybe another lazy *ss mistake
      It is an 04 as well, off a V70AWD. Everything is identical, the teeth are near perfect if not perfect. Could I split this one and reseal it and avoid doing any of the other work like you mentioned? It doesn't seem hard.

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      Quote Originally Posted by boosted_xc70 View Post
      It is an 04 as well, off a V70AWD. Everything is identical, the teeth are near perfect if not perfect. Could I split this one and reseal it and avoid doing any of the other work like you mentioned? It doesn't seem hard.
      Once you have two halves in front of you (and the crown wheel shaft fell out), all 3 seals and 1 O-ring mentioned above are naturally in front of you. Replacement is very easy. I found it more difficult to angle-torque these 10 bolts at 85 degrees.

      Also you need these 10 bolts new, they are torque to yield.

      I drilled the lowest bolt through, too. This is my drain plug now.

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      Just in case if you haven't read it yet: http://www.volvoxc.com/0/resources/h...%20Leakage.pdf

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