HELP: disrupted timing during timing belt change?
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    1. #1
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      HELP: disrupted timing during timing belt change?

      Hey everyone!

      First off, hello to each and every one of you that make up this community. You've given me the knowledge and confidence to maintain my car for the last 6 years, and I can't thank you enough.

      With that said, your expertise would be sincerely appreciated as I attempt a timing belt change for my 2007 S40 T5 AWD. I purchased her in 2013 with 138k miles, and since then she has treated me well, apart from a few fixes that I've been able to do myself including a PCV and motor mount replacements, sunroof fix (post-flooding of the driver's side wheelwell), and "stage 0" tuneup.

      I've been following directions every step of the way, using Haynes as my main source of instructions. I'm at the point of removing my crankshaft pulley which includes loosening the 4 outer bolts of the pulley. I've installed the camshaft locking tool on the rear (left-sided) end of the engine as the real reason for the timing belt change is to change out the camshaft seals on both ends of the engine. (Interesting side note: the rear end of the engine didn't have any oil seals installed AT ALL, as I found out incidentally... So those are going in as well.)

      After applying the torque for loosening of the 4 outer bolts of the pulley, I realized that the pulley rotated little over 45 degrees counterclockwise, such that the crankshaft pulley roll-pin is now pointing as-pictured rather than nearly straight up (as it was previously and as shown in the Haynes manual). Again, this occurred while the camshaft locking tool was applied.

      I'm positive that the camshafts were (and continue to be) correctly aligned according to timing marks on the sprocket rims as well as the timing belt cover. Question is, given the rotation of the pulley below, is the engine timing off now? I felt "clicks" at the time of the pulley outer bolt loosening, but didn't think too much about it until the deed was done. I'm hoping no, but I defer to you guys. Thanks in advance!

      Pic of the car includes a few other goodies that I'm planning on completing as well, including a yellow Hella horn upgrade and intercooler upgrade, as well as associated hoses. But please help out with the timing belt!







      Last edited by isantana21; 11-17-2019 at 12:45 AM.

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    3. #2
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      Get the pulley off and then line up the mark on the crank. Then you'll be sure.

      And the rear seals are plugs. That's all that's supposed to be there.

    4. #3
      Junior Member Facusan's Avatar
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      HELP: disrupted timing during timing belt change?

      +1 what tech says.

      check out this article:

      https://www.matthewsvolvosite.com/ea...ming-belt.html

      And right after you install the new timing belt, turn the crank by hand at least 4 times to make sure there is no interference. If you feel that something stops you from turning the crankshaft, then you have the timing wrong. Best way to do this is with the spark plugs off.
      Last edited by Facusan; 11-14-2019 at 07:43 PM.

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    6. #4
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      Thanks for the replies! The link is super useful, I'm going to continue with the pulley removal and see where I lie.

      And noted regarding the end plugs. Haynes manual says otherwise, but I'm reassured by your words (and the fact that there was no seal when I removed the plugs).

      Updates pending.

    7. #5
      Junior Member Facusan's Avatar
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      Tech is right about the camshaft end plugs, my ‘07 S40 doesn’t have seals, only plugs. But my ‘98 had seals and plugs.


      Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

    8. #6
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      Quote Originally Posted by isantana21 View Post
      Thanks for the replies! The link is super useful, I'm going to continue with the pulley removal and see where I lie.

      And noted regarding the end plugs. Haynes manual says otherwise, but I'm reassured by your words (and the fact that there was no seal when I removed the plugs).

      Updates pending.
      Update: one of the 10mm bolt heads is stripped , so I'm having to hunt down a bolt extractor as well as a new set of bolts. Is there an alternative bolt that I can use aside from Volvo's 985374? I live out in the boonies of California so the bolts will take a while to get here...

      Gonna hunt down a bolt extractor set in the meantime.

    9. #7
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      As long as you have the belt on there's no trouble (if you take the belt off and rotate the crank much you could hit vales). Then just align the timing, mark the belt and pulleys, transfer marks to new belt, easiest way... https://forums.swedespeed.com/showth...37#post7370837
      2005 S40 T5 AWD automatic - Hilton stage 2+ with torque limit removal. Some mods: 3" DP & 2.5" catback, Do88 FMIC, Pumaspeed inlet plenum, ECU spacer.

    10. #8
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      Quote Originally Posted by Facusan View Post
      And right after you install the new timing belt, turn the crank by hand at least 4 times to make sure there is no interference. If you feel that something stops you from turning the crankshaft, then you have the timing wrong. Best way to do this is with the spark plugs off.
      Okay guys, update. Pulley (harmonic balancer) was removed, showing what's shown in image 1 (please forgive the oily contamination, it's the reason that I'm doing this in the first place). So, I see that the crankshaft face (without the pulley) doesn't have the notch line up with the vertical timing mark on the engine, as indicated in image 3 and 4 (obtained from this forum). Since I have not yet removed the timing belt, I attempted to turn the crank clockwise to see if I could align aforementioned notch with the vertical timing mark, but I can't turn the crank clockwise beyond another 20-30 degrees, if that.

      Here's what I'm thinking: prior to loosening the four outer bolts and center main bolt on the crankshaft pulley, I aligned the timing marks on the sprocket rims with the notches on the timing belt upper cover (image 2). I then went over to the other end of the engine and installed the camshaft locking tool (image 5) in anticipation of requiring it for removal of the intake/exhaust sprockets and replacement of the oil seals. Then, I moved back to the pulley side to loosening of the four outer bolts on the pulley. I had some difficulty doing so, and because I required applying very high counter-clockwise torque to do so, the pulley ended up in the position in image 1.

      I'm being extremely careful because interference engine and all that jazz. My question to ya'll is, given that the crankshaft rotated counter-clockwise while the four pulley bolts were loosened at the same time that the camshaft locking tool was in place, could I have thrown my timing out of whack? If not (and I hope that this is the case), given that I can't rotate the camshaft clockwise, should I attempt to rotate it counter-clockwise until the timing marks line up again? And should I do it with the camshaft locking tool in place?

      My apologies about the length of the post, but again, your help is SINCERELY appreciated. Thanks in advance!









      Last edited by isantana21; 11-17-2019 at 12:48 AM.

    11. #9
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      Quote Originally Posted by Tame View Post
      As long as you have the belt on there's no trouble (if you take the belt off and rotate the crank much you could hit vales). Then just align the timing, mark the belt and pulleys, transfer marks to new belt, easiest way... https://forums.swedespeed.com/showth...37#post7370837
      Thanks for the advice, Tame. In seeing your final image, I know that something is off, and I hope that it can be easily remedied prior to removal of the timing belt.

    12. #10
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      Quote Originally Posted by Tech View Post
      Get the pulley off and then line up the mark on the crank. Then you'll be sure.

      And the rear seals are plugs. That's all that's supposed to be there.
      Hi @Tech, thanks so much for your advice. Tagging you here since I wasn't able to do so during my updated post earlier today. Help much appreciated!

    13. #11
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      The VVT pulleys can rotate when the cams are locked. That's basically how they work. What I would do is this:

      -Remove the belt and VVT pulleys and replace your cam seals.
      -Rotate the crank back clockwise to line up the marks (slowly, of course. Just in case.)
      -Reinstall the VVT pulleys.
      -Install the belt (and idler and tensioner, of course).
      -Remove the cam locking tools
      -Rotate the engine by hand two revolutions and double check your marks.

      Then button it all back up and you should be fine.

    14. #12
      Junior Member Facusan's Avatar
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      yes, your timing is out of whack. most likely the timing belt slipped with that oil contamination. ¿The camshaft locking tool was the only thing holding the engine while you were trying to remove the crank pulley?

      i think you should leave the camshaft locking tool in place, remove the timing belt and then try to rotate the crankshaft to the correct position. remove your spark plugs before doing this, is going to let you spin the rotate the crank without fighting against compression.

    15. #13
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      Quote Originally Posted by Facusan View Post
      yes, your timing is out of whack. most likely the timing belt slipped with that oil contamination. ¿The camshaft locking tool was the only thing holding the engine while you were trying to remove the crank pulley?

      i think you should leave the camshaft locking tool in place, remove the timing belt and then try to rotate the crankshaft to the correct position. remove your spark plugs before doing this, is going to let you spin the rotate the crank without fighting against compression.
      Correct, camshaft locking tool was the only thing holding the engine while removing the crank pulley (aside from my floor jack supporting the engine down below - probably unrelated, just a clarification).

      Both you and Tech in the prior post are telling me to proceed the same way, so onward it is. I'll keep you all updated. And noted regarding the spark plugs, I'll keep this in mind when the time is appropriate.

      Again, thanks so much for your time, very much appreciated!

      Last edited by isantana21; 11-17-2019 at 12:42 AM. Reason: Post format update.

    16. #14
      Junior Member Facusan's Avatar
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      HELP: disrupted timing during timing belt change?

      Quote Originally Posted by Tech View Post
      The VVT pulleys can rotate when the cams are locked. That's basically how they work.
      the vvt pulley should not rotate while there is no oil pressure to release the internal lock.

      here is a picture of the vvt disassembled:

      Last edited by Facusan; 11-15-2019 at 08:06 PM.

    17. #15
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      Quote Originally Posted by Tech View Post
      The VVT pulleys can rotate when the cams are locked. That's basically how they work. What I would do is this:

      -Remove the belt and VVT pulleys and replace your cam seals.
      -Rotate the crank back clockwise to line up the marks (slowly, of course. Just in case.)
      -Reinstall the VVT pulleys.
      -Install the belt (and idler and tensioner, of course).
      -Remove the cam locking tools
      -Rotate the engine by hand two revolutions and double check your marks.

      Then button it all back up and you should be fine.
      Onward. Thanks so much for your help, Tech!

    18. #16
      Junior Member Facusan's Avatar
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      HELP: disrupted timing during timing belt change?

      When you remove the vvt pulleys, check them for damage where it makes contact with the seal. This happened to me when I had that oil leak.

      Mine had this groove and didn’t want to try my luck with an new seal. So I replaced the vvt pulley with a new one. Maybe I went overkill, but I was a hurry and needed the car running again.





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      Last edited by Facusan; 11-15-2019 at 08:19 PM.

    19. #17
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      Quote Originally Posted by Facusan View Post
      the vvt pulley should not rotate while there is no oil pressure to release the internal lock.

      here is a picture of the vvt disassembled:

      Awesome! Thanks for the info, much appreciated.

      To be clear, VVT pulleys (up top) didn't rotate, they remained locked. What did rotate was the crankshaft down below, the one connected to the harmonic balancer.

    20. #18
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      Quote Originally Posted by Facusan View Post
      When you remove the vvt pulleys, check them for damage where it makes contact with the seal. This happened to me when I had that oil leak.

      Mine had this groove and didn’t want to try my luck with an new seal. So I replaced the vvt pulley with a new one. Maybe I went overkill, but I was a hurry and needed the car running again.





      Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
      Got it, I'll be on the lookout and will keep you updated.

    21. #19
      Junior Member Facusan's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by isantana21 View Post
      Correct, camshaft locking tool was the only thing holding the engine while removing the crank pulley (aside from my floor jack supporting the engine down below - probably unrelated, just a clarification).

      Both you and Tech in the prior post are telling me to proceed the same way, so onward it is. I'll keep you all updated. And noted regarding the spark plugs, I'll keep this in mind when the time is appropriate.

      Again, thanks so much for your time, very much appreciated!
      The camshaft locking tool is only used to remove the cam pulleys. there is this special tool to hold the harmonic balancer: .

    22. #20
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      Quote Originally Posted by Facusan View Post
      The camshaft locking tool is only used to remove the cam pulleys. there is this special tool to hold the harmonic balancer: .
      I think you mean the sprocket holding tool (image 1). In the image, it demonstrates a homemade version of the one that you linked (which I also have), used to loosen the 30mm central bolt on the crankshaft pulley.

      The holding tool that I mentioned was that in images 2 and 3.





      Last edited by isantana21; 11-17-2019 at 12:44 AM.

    23. #21
      Junior Member Facusan's Avatar
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      my bad, i thought you only used the camshaft holding tool to prevent the crankshaft from spinning (through the timing belt) while you were trying to loosen the harmonic balancer central nut.

    24. #22
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      So then the belt either moved with the crank, or the belt stayed in place but the crank skipped teeth as you rotated the crank. I would think this would have been obvious as it was happening but I've never done that.

      You should be fine following my post above.

    25. #23
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      Quote Originally Posted by Tech View Post
      So then the belt either moved with the crank, or the belt stayed in place but the crank skipped teeth as you rotated the crank. I would think this would have been obvious as it was happening but I've never done that.

      You should be fine following my post above.
      Okay, so belt is off, and after a hell of a struggle with the VVT pulleys (the genius before more WAYYY overtightened those bolts), the pulleys are off.

      In retrospect, I have no doubt that the pulley teeth must have slipped over the teeth of the belt. It was SATURATED with oil, and despite the hell it's been replacing everything, I count my blessings that the belt didn't fail earlier. Despite the mainly FoMoCo parts, my 'Vo continues.

      Anyway, I stripped a few more bolts so I have to order replacements. In the meantime, I'm gonna detail the hell out of the engine bay (well, mainly get rid of the contamination with oil). Thank you all very much and wish me luck!

      Updates to come.

    26. #24
      Global Moderator tmtalpey's Avatar
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      Those bolts are frequently super-hard to remove, no prior genius required. Remember it's a rotating pulley without a keyway.

      If the belt was oil-soaked, you may want to check your PCV for clogging. Crankcase pressure is a result, and it blows oil past the seals.
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    27. #25
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      Quote Originally Posted by isantana21 View Post
      To be clear, VVT pulleys (up top) didn't rotate, they remained locked. What did rotate was the crankshaft down below, the one connected to the harmonic balancer.
      Just another note - if the engine is turned backwards (ccw), the timing belt tensioner goes slack because the belt "pulls" on the spring. This generally leads to heartache. There is a hole behind the starter which can be used to lock the crank in these situations.
      2005 V50 T5 AWD 6MT w/Heico tune, Heico exhaust, Bell intercooler, IPD TCV, Viva Forge CBV, Elevate rear swaybar and torque mount, Snabb shift kit, etc.
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    28. #26
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      Quote Originally Posted by tmtalpey View Post
      Just another note - if the engine is turned backwards (ccw), the timing belt tensioner goes slack because the belt "pulls" on the spring. This generally leads to heartache. There is a hole behind the starter which can be used to lock the crank in these situations.
      You know, the PCV issue was one that I fixed nearly 40k mi ago, and I didn't think too much about the effects that it would have on camshaft seals until digging around this forum this year. I'm sure that the PCV system is running correctly, but the damage was already done by that point.

      The worst part about the crank issue is that I HAVE the tool to lock it, but because the Haynes manual doesn't mention said tool until after the seal replacement (and I've been following the book faithfully), it never occurred to me to install it behind the starter prior to removing the belt. What a bummer.

      That being said, I'm moving forward with the repair and pray that I haven't damaged the engine. I have some hope given that I haven't cranked the engine yet. I may just put everything back to the best of my ability and take it to my local shop before trying to turn the car on again, if I find that the crank doesn't rotate freely when all is done.

    29. #27
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      I doubt you damaged the engine. You'd have to try to start it to do some damage.

      If you have the crank pin, pop that in. Then you will know without any doubt the engine is correctly timed when putting it all together.

    30. #28
      Do you know where you got that crank pin? Model # and brand? I'm interested in one to make my timing belt job a bit easier when time comes.
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    31. #29
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      Sure! IPD and FCP Euro both have a full kit available for purchase for about $200-300 which has all the tools you'll need for the (crankshaft) job including the tool that you're asking about. However, I got mine on Amazon for about $50 shipped and it works well.

      That said, the crankshaft stop tool that you're asking about is technically available by itself. Per Haynes, its Volvo part 9995451.

    32. #30
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      When just doing the timing belt, you don't need the cam lock or crank pin.

    33. #31
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      Hey all,

      Project ran into a bit of a snag since I needed to order bolts and stuff. I'll update the thread once the car is ready to run again.

      To be continued. Thanks for the help, ya'll.

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