V60 Drive-E new engine

[john_hamster]

2015.5 V60 Drive-E, Pt Edition, 57K mi.
Due to a ridiculously careless error, a couple of gals. of coolant were poured into crankcase, resulting in a totaled-out engine. Had the car towed to closest Volvo shop, and after a bit of effort to clean up the damage, it was deemed trashed, and we were quoted ca. $15000 for new engine replacement. Insurer was notified, and an adjuster will determine next week whether damage is covered by comprehensive in policy. Now, covered or not, does $15K all-in seem rather high for this work? Is there a huge labour component vs cost of engine involved here? Would like to here from anyone who’s had whole-engine replacement to offer an opinion.

[meade18]

2015.5 V60 Drive-E, Pt Edition, 57K mi.
Due to a ridiculously careless error, a couple of gals. of coolant were poured into crankcase, resulting in a totaled-out engine. Had the car towed to closest Volvo shop, and after a bit of effort to clean up the damage, it was deemed trashed, and we were quoted ca. $15000 for new engine replacement. Insurer was notified, and an adjuster will determine next week whether damage is covered by comprehensive in policy. Now, covered or not, does $15K all-in seem rather high for this work? Is there a huge labour component vs cost of engine involved here? Would like to here from anyone who’s had whole-engine replacement to offer an opinion.

I had my engine replaced through my Volvo VIP warranty, so unfortunately for you, I don't have any documentation listing the exact cost of the replacement (parts and labor). But when I asked the dealer how much it cost the warranty company, they were able to tell me it was around $11,000 (USD).

[MyVolvoS60]

2015.5 V60 Drive-E, Pt Edition, 57K mi.
Due to a ridiculously careless error, a couple of gals. of coolant were poured into crankcase, resulting in a totaled-out engine. Had the car towed to closest Volvo shop, and after a bit of effort to clean up the damage, it was deemed trashed, and we were quoted ca. $15000 for new engine replacement. Insurer was notified, and an adjuster will determine next week whether damage is covered by comprehensive in policy. Now, covered or not, does $15K all-in seem rather high for this work? Is there a huge labour component vs cost of engine involved here? Would like to here from anyone who’s had whole-engine replacement to offer an opinion.

Hate to be the bearer of bad news but your car is a total loss. I doubt any insurer is going to pay a $15,000 claim on a car that worth around $18k in functioning and very good condition. https://www.kbb.com/volvo/v60/2015/t...|6900979|false

Especially being the damage was caused by carelessness and not act of nature (flood, storm, etc) or accident related damage.

I think you bought yourself an expensive paperweight. And my intuition about how insurance companies work tells me this claim will be shot down and denied.

[john_hamster]

Hate to be the bearer of bad news but your car is a total loss. I doubt any insurer is going to pay a $15,000 claim on a car that worth around $18k in functioning and very good condition. https://www.kbb.com/volvo/v60/2015/t...|6900979|false

Especially being the damage was caused by carelessness and not act of nature (flood, storm, etc) or accident related damage.

I think you bought yourself an expensive paperweight. And my intuition about how insurance companies work tells me this claim will be shot down and denied.

I have no expectations of any insurance payoff, though the Claims Dept. didn’t completely dismiss claim, even with confession of “self-inflicted” harm to car, and has an adjuster on the case. And you are correct about repair cost v market value for the vehicle. But, assuming we are willing to pay out-of-pocket for new engine, what of the $15K quoted replacement cost? Reasonable, or...?

[gobluetwo]

I have no expectations of any insurance payoff, though the Claims Dept. didn’t completely dismiss claim, even with confession of “self-inflicted” harm to car, and has an adjuster on the case. And you are correct about repair cost v market value for the vehicle. But, assuming we are willing to pay out-of-pocket for new engine, what of the $15K quoted replacement cost? Reasonable, or...?

Washington state apparently uses the total loss formula approach which will vary by insurer. This is why they want to assess the vehicle, so they can determine if it's a total loss or not, and if it's something they'll cover.

[zenmervolt]

I have no expectations of any insurance payoff, though the Claims Dept. didn’t completely dismiss claim, even with confession of “self-inflicted” harm to car, and has an adjuster on the case. And you are correct about repair cost v market value for the vehicle. But, assuming we are willing to pay out-of-pocket for new engine, what of the $15K quoted replacement cost? Reasonable, or...?

It seems excessive to me; even if we assume the new engine is $10,000 that still means they're estimating $5,000 in labor. Assuming a $120/hour labor rate that would mean over 40 hours of labor which seems like more than it would take even with how tightly things are packaged on cars these days.

[Tech]

Yeah that sounds high, but not by as much as you may think. Labor is around 17 hours. Labor rates can vary, so see what theirs is. It could be $120. It could be $160. Obviously that can make a difference. The motor is around $9000 or so. Plus some other required parts (exhaust gaskets, exhaust studs and nuts, intake gasket, injector seal kits, injector pipe, etc) and not required parts that may have been priced (thermostat, drive belt) and it can add up quickly.

Personally, when I price a job like that I add maybe $500 to $700 to the known items. Just in case something unexpected breaks along the way. If it isn't needed, then great.

[mamba42]

That sucks. I think it's probably a high number, I would think $11k. Of course if you could do the labor yourself you'd save yourself a lot of money, especially if you could source a used engine (not sure what that market looks like).

If you don't mind, what was the careless error? I've been trying to think about how this happened. Was it just pouring coolant into the wrong place?

[john_hamster]

That sucks. I think it's probably a high number, I would think $11k. Of course if you could do the labor yourself you'd save yourself a lot of money, especially if you could source a used engine (not sure what that market looks like).

If you don't mind, what was the careless error? I've been trying to think about how this happened. Was it just pouring coolant into the wrong place?

Massive brain fart, was in a rush, never checked manual...brutal.

[john_hamster]

It seems excessive to me; even if we assume the new engine is $10,000 that still means they're estimating $5,000 in labor. Assuming a $120/hour labor rate that would mean over 40 hours of labor which seems like more than it would take even with how tightly things are packaged on cars these days.

Depending how the insurance adjuster’s report plays out, we intend to get a full breakout of the new-engine replacement work from the Volvo Service Advisor.

[john_hamster]

Interestingly enough, shortly after the car was towed in, we were contacted by one of the dealership’s sales people, who went on about “working something out”, implying that some allowance would be made for disabled vehicle IF we wanted to buy/lease a new car...hmmm.

[mamba42]

Hopefully you get some options there that will work for you, but looking at car-part.com, it looks like there are a number of used engine options for you to look at. These run around $3000 or so. Sounds like a way to save thousands from putting a brand-new engine in. Not sure the dealer will want to put a used engine in, but it's possible. If not, then you could always go to an independent mechanic as well.

[MyVolvoS60]

It seems excessive to me; even if we assume the new engine is $10,000 that still means they're estimating $5,000 in labor. Assuming a $120/hour labor rate that would mean over 40 hours of labor which seems like more than it would take even with how tightly things are packaged on cars these days.

Even said, spidey sense says OP is going to have an uphill battle getting an insurance company to pay a claim on negligence. I can see insurance company making an argument that OP wasn't qualified to work on his vehicle which thereby resulted in damage...And that insurance policies cover accidents not negligent behavior.

But as the lawyer (you), what's your 2 cents?

[MyVolvoS60]

Yeah that sounds high, but not by as much as you may think. Labor is around 17 hours. Labor rates can vary, so see what theirs is. It could be $120. It could be $160. Obviously that can make a difference. The motor is around $9000 or so. Plus some other required parts (exhaust gaskets, exhaust studs and nuts, intake gasket, injector seal kits, injector pipe, etc) and not required parts that may have been priced (thermostat, drive belt) and it can add up quickly.

Personally, when I price a job like that I add maybe $500 to $700 to the known items. Just in case something unexpected breaks along the way. If it isn't needed, then great.

Wonder what cost would be if OP sourced a rebuilt / used engine and had one dropped in?

[john_hamster]

Wonder what cost would be if OP sourced a rebuilt / used engine and had one dropped in?

Well, it would certainly seem at the outset that the Volvo shop wouldn’t mess about with used engines, and that means we would have to organize a local indie shop to take on the job, then a ca. 75mi. tow back to local area, then all the down-time whilst awaiting replacement engine, and time required for install, and on and on. Practicably, only option is let Volvo drop in new engine with warranty, and let them stand behind the work. Our car has been 100%-serviced by this dealer, from whom we originally purchased the car, and there is considerable goodwill invested here.

[john_hamster]

Even said, spidey sense says OP is going to have an uphill battle getting an insurance company to pay a claim on negligence. I can see insurance company making an argument that OP wasn't qualified to work on his vehicle which thereby resulted in damage...And that insurance policies cover accidents not negligent behavior.

But as the lawyer (you), what's your 2 cents?

Well, as I reported, the claims adjuster earlier had a perfect opportunity to say point-blank that there would be NO coverage under policy because of car-owner negligence, but rather told us that a field operative would be at the dealer’s shop on Monday to do “further evaluation”. Why waste an adjuster’s time if the claim is insupportable in the first instance?

[Tech]

Used would obviously be less. But you could be getting one with the oil burning problem. Cost depends what the used one comes with and what you want done while its out. Labor is the same, plus cost of used engine, exhaust gaskets, intake gasket. I'd suggest replacement of the thermostat and timing belt, so add those and a little more labor for the timing belt. Injector seals and high pressure pipe if not supplied. Spark plugs would be a good idea too.

I've installed used engines for people. Doesn't matter to me. I get paid the same.

[MyVolvoS60]

Well, as I reported, the claims adjuster earlier had a perfect opportunity to say point-blank that there would be NO coverage under policy because of car-owner negligence, but rather told us that a field operative would be at the dealer’s shop on Monday to do “further evaluation”. Why waste an adjuster’s time if the claim is insupportable in the first instance?

I mean any claim has to be investigated. Maybe you'll find an adjuster who is sympathetic. Fingers crossed. But insurance companies aren't out there to lose money either. They have investors and shareholders, and do look for reasons why to deny a claim. This one being negligence. Will that happen? Maybe you'll luck out.

[MyVolvoS60]

Used would obviously be less. But you could be getting one with the oil burning problem. Cost depends what the used one comes with and what you want done while its out. Labor is the same, plus cost of used engine, exhaust gaskets, intake gasket. I'd suggest replacement of the thermostat and timing belt, so add those and a little more labor for the timing belt. Injector seals and high pressure pipe if not supplied. Spark plugs would be a good idea too.

I've installed used engines for people. Doesn't matter to me. I get paid the same.

Aren't many of the engines Volvo throws into 15.5's and 16s rebuilt? Doubt there are a stock of new ones floating around. Far as used, you're right, could be a risk with obtaining another oil burner.

Saw on another thread, does this apply to 15.5+. Where Volvo changed the oil to be used in the vehicles?

[Tech]

Yeah, engines are reconditioned. There is no practical difference between them and brand new.

Regarding oil, yes.

"All model year 2019 and 2020 vehicles for the U.S. and Canadian markets are delivered from the factory with Castrol Edge Professional V 0W-20 Synthetic oil.
Any services or repairs on model year 2019 and 2020 vehicles requiring the replacement of engine oil must be performed using only Castrol Edge Professional V 0W-20 Synthetic oil.
Volvo will not pay any oil maintenance claims that are performed without using Castrol Edge Professional V 0W-20 Synthetic oil.

All model year vehicles (2015-) with a VEP(4Cylinder) engine that require engine replacement or engine rebuild must use Castrol Edge Professional V 0W-20 Synthetic oil. It is required to notify the customer of this change for future maintenance services. "

[MyVolvoS60]

Yeah, engines are reconditioned. There is no practical difference between them and brand new.

Regarding oil, yes.

"All model year 2019 and 2020 vehicles for the U.S. and Canadian markets are delivered from the factory with Castrol Edge Professional V 0W-20 Synthetic oil.
Any services or repairs on model year 2019 and 2020 vehicles requiring the replacement of engine oil must be performed using only Castrol Edge Professional V 0W-20 Synthetic oil.
Volvo will not pay any oil maintenance claims that are performed without using Castrol Edge Professional V 0W-20 Synthetic oil.

All model year vehicles (2015-) with a VEP(4Cylinder) engine that require engine replacement or engine rebuild must use Castrol Edge Professional V 0W-20 Synthetic oil. It is required to notify the customer of this change for future maintenance services. "

So going forward on 15.5+ will Volvo switch over to Castrol Edge Processional V 0W-20 Synethic Oil on all service visits going forward? I.E. I'm soon at my 60K. Or will the change only apply if a vehicle has developed a consumption issue or required a replacement engine?

[Tech]

As it states, only engines that required replacement or rebuild are required to switch.

You are not required to, but you can if you'd like.

[MyVolvoS60]

As it states, only engines that required replacement or rebuild are required to switch.

You are not required to, but you can if you'd like.

I should have been a bit more clear. At my 60K service visit at the local Volvo Dealership (very soon), can I request Castrol Edge Processional V 0W-20 Synethic Oil on MY 2015.5 S60 instead of the Castrol 5w 30 that was being used prior?

[Tech]

Yes you can. It is okay to use it in all Drive-E engines. You might have to pay the difference in price.

[zenmervolt]

Yeah that sounds high, but not by as much as you may think. Labor is around 17 hours. Labor rates can vary, so see what theirs is. It could be $120. It could be $160. Obviously that can make a difference. The motor is around $9000 or so. Plus some other required parts (exhaust gaskets, exhaust studs and nuts, intake gasket, injector seal kits, injector pipe, etc) and not required parts that may have been priced (thermostat, drive belt) and it can add up quickly.

Personally, when I price a job like that I add maybe $500 to $700 to the known items. Just in case something unexpected breaks along the way. If it isn't needed, then great.

$160/hour would be out of normal for the Bellingham and Seattle areas though. I live in Western Washington like the OP and the going rates out here are $110-$120/hour which is why I used $120 for a conservative estimate. For example, my local Seattle Porsche mechanic is $110/hour. A Volvo mechanic charging $160/hour would be far above market here.

I agree that there will always be the "shop supplies" and miscellaneous gaskets and the like but $15k still seems like the high side. Not "we're scamming you" high but more like "you can probably save $2k to $3k by choosing a different shop and still get quality work done."

[Tech]

$160/hour would be out of normal for the Bellingham and Seattle areas though. I live in Western Washington like the OP and the going rates out here are $110-$120/hour which is why I used $120 for a conservative estimate. For example, my local Seattle Porsche mechanic is $110/hour. A Volvo mechanic charging $160/hour would be far above market here.

I agree that there will always be the "shop supplies" and miscellaneous gaskets and the like but $15k still seems like the high side. Not "we're scamming you" high but more like "you can probably save $2k to $3k by choosing a different shop and still get quality work done."

Gotcha. You would know better than me for the area. I'm actually surprised a Porsche dealer is at $110/hr, regardless of location.

I'm not sure what dealer he is using, but Sandberg Volvo appears to be at $165. This is based on their website service booking. The fee for "Other Diagnosis" is $165. Generally, diagnosis starts at one hour of labor.

Here is what I come up with as an approximate breakdown for parts:
Engine is about $9000
Belt and tensioner is about $200
Cat gaskets $25
Exhaust studs and nuts $40
Exhaust bolts $80
Thermostat $145
Water pipe seals $9
Exhaust manifold gasket $15
Catback nuts and gasket $13
Injection pump o-ring $18
Injector seal kits $140
Injector rail pipe $81
Intake gasket $19
Coolant $25
Oil $75
Parts $9885

That includes "while you're in there" items, so I can't see needing much more than that. So whether $120 or $165, the quote is still high.

[john_hamster]

Gotcha. You would know better than me for the area. I'm actually surprised a Porsche dealer is at $110/hr, regardless of location.

I'm not sure what dealer he is using, but Sandberg Volvo appears to be at $165. This is based on their website service booking. The fee for "Other Diagnosis" is $165. Generally, diagnosis starts at one hour of labor.

Here is what I come up with as an approximate breakdown for parts:
Engine is about $9000
Belt and tensioner is about $200
Cat gaskets $25
Exhaust studs and nuts $40
Exhaust bolts $80
Thermostat $145
Water pipe seals $9
Exhaust manifold gasket $15
Catback nuts and gasket $13
Injection pump o-ring $18
Injector seal kits $140
Injector rail pipe $81
Intake gasket $19
Coolant $25
Oil $75
Parts $9885

That includes "while you're in there" items, so I can't see needing much more than that. So whether $120 or $165, the quote is still high.

Spot on, mate, we are indeed with Sandberg Volvo at this time, and your labour rates are in line with what we have been billed for out-of-warranty service. We are awaiting the determinative word from the insurer’s Claims Dept., and - barring a “creative” offer from Sandberg Sales - we are inclined to go with the engine swap, and pay out-of-pocket if that’s the case...cheaper than any alternative, we reckon.

[john_hamster]

Oh, let me add that I really appreciate the repair breakdown furnished by “Tech”, which provides an excellent base estimate to compare to whatever the dealer’s shop will eventually provide...stellar work there!

[Tech]

Keep in mind those prices are ballpark. They can vary from shop to shop. Because they can vary, I would ask them if they can work with you on the prices. It sounds like you're a loyal customer so that should work in your favor. There is plenty of markup in the parts pricing generally, so they have room to cut you a break and still make money. If you want, ask for the part numbers of prices quoted. Then check then on a site like Volvopartswebstore.com. The prices there are generally wholesale, but it shows list as well.

[zenmervolt]

Gotcha. You would know better than me for the area. I'm actually surprised a Porsche dealer is at $110/hr, regardless of location.

I'm not sure what dealer he is using, but Sandberg Volvo appears to be at $165. This is based on their website service booking. The fee for "Other Diagnosis" is $165. Generally, diagnosis starts at one hour of labor.

Here is what I come up with as an approximate breakdown for parts:
Engine is about $9000
Belt and tensioner is about $200
Cat gaskets $25
Exhaust studs and nuts $40
Exhaust bolts $80
Thermostat $145
Water pipe seals $9
Exhaust manifold gasket $15
Catback nuts and gasket $13
Injection pump o-ring $18
Injector seal kits $140
Injector rail pipe $81
Intake gasket $19
Coolant $25
Oil $75
Parts $9885

That includes "while you're in there" items, so I can't see needing much more than that. So whether $120 or $165, the quote is still high.

Not a Porsche dealer; dealers don't know much about the transaxle cars these days. I use a local independent race prep shop that is phenomenal - instead of the 22 hour book time for a clutch on my '86 951 they only charged the actual time of 16 hours but the only reason they can do it in 16 is because they do a lot of them. (Side note, the 951 is a great car but it is not designed to ever be taken apart...) It's the kind of shop that sometimes has a 1960s LeMans Ferrari in the back that they're restoring for the local historic races. Just a great place for gearheads.

That's interesting at Sandberg. I get my services in Bellevue and the rate on my last oil change invoice was, I think, $120/hour. Bellevue is our area's hoity toity area so I assumed places out here wouldn't be much over their rates. Seems I may be out of date.

[MyVolvoS60]

Yes you can. It is okay to use it in all Drive-E engines. You might have to pay the difference in price.

Thanks for information.

[MyVolvoS60]

$160/hour would be out of normal for the Bellingham and Seattle areas though. I live in Western Washington like the OP and the going rates out here are $110-$120/hour which is why I used $120 for a conservative estimate. For example, my local Seattle Porsche mechanic is $110/hour. A Volvo mechanic charging $160/hour would be far above market here.

I agree that there will always be the "shop supplies" and miscellaneous gaskets and the like but $15k still seems like the high side. Not "we're scamming you" high but more like "you can probably save $2k to $3k by choosing a different shop and still get quality work done."

What's chances OP gets a claim approved with insurance company when the damage arose from negligence? Maybe different here, but any time I've dealt with insurance companies, they're always looking for an out not to pay. And can't imagine they're eager to cut a check for $12-15k.

[zenmervolt]

What's chances OP gets a claim approved with insurance company when the damage arose from negligence? Maybe different here, but any time I've dealt with insurance companies, they're always looking for an out not to pay. And can't imagine they're eager to cut a check for $12-15k.

I mean, technically most damage claims an insurance company handles are due to negligence. If I crash into another car and my insurance pays to repair my car under my collision policy, that's the insurance company paying out for my negligence.

That said, what the OP has described seems like something that would be paid out under comprehensive coverage if at all and coverage will be determined based on OP's specific policy. If covered I would certainly expect it to cause OP's rates to increase, but, again, that will depend on the specifics of the OP's insurance contract.

[meade18]

Yeah, engines are reconditioned. There is no practical difference between them and brand new.

Regarding oil, yes.

"All model year 2019 and 2020 vehicles for the U.S. and Canadian markets are delivered from the factory with Castrol Edge Professional V 0W-20 Synthetic oil.
Any services or repairs on model year 2019 and 2020 vehicles requiring the replacement of engine oil must be performed using only Castrol Edge Professional V 0W-20 Synthetic oil.
Volvo will not pay any oil maintenance claims that are performed without using Castrol Edge Professional V 0W-20 Synthetic oil.

All model year vehicles (2015-) with a VEP(4Cylinder) engine that require engine replacement or engine rebuild must use Castrol Edge Professional V 0W-20 Synthetic oil. It is required to notify the customer of this change for future maintenance services. "

Yikes. The cost for an oil change is already ridiculous at my dealer. I'd hate to see how much they claim they have to charge now that they are importing special oil.
If I were keeping this car forever, I guess I would consider biting the bullet and having it served at the dealer to keep the warranty since I do have a dealer installed engine replacement. But I just can't wrap my head around paying that much for an oil change. If I have problems with my new engine even after using Liqui Moly 0W-20 (Volvo VCC RBS0-2AE) oil, I'll just consider myself the unluckiest Volvo owner ever and sell the car.

[MyVolvoS60]

I mean, technically most damage claims an insurance company handles are due to negligence. If I crash into another car and my insurance pays to repair my car under my collision policy, that's the insurance company paying out for my negligence.

That said, what the OP has described seems like something that would be paid out under comprehensive coverage if at all and coverage will be determined based on OP's specific policy. If covered I would certainly expect it to cause OP's rates to increase, but, again, that will depend on the specifics of the OP's insurance contract.

True, but I guess I looked at this from another perspective. If I am driving and get into an accident through carelessness or poor driving, insurance will pay a claim. But if I am driving at 80 MPH in a 35 and get into an accident, the insurance company is going to tell me I was reckless. Probably denying my claim, but paying that of anyone else who might have been hurt.

Playing devil's advocate, I could see an insurance company telling OP he's not a licensed mechanic, and attempted a repair he clearly wasn't qualified to undertake.

I've had to fight insurance claims tooth and nail over far less dollar amounts. Hell, I had a city contractor cause $3,000 damage to my vehicle through negligence. Fault was open and shut. Their insurance company told me to take a hike. I filed small claims and they attempted to drag into regular civil court. Ended up subrogating through my own insurance who had to chase down the other party's insurance through arbitration. 1.5 Yrs later, they lost I got reimbursed my deductible.

I could go on and on about how insurance companies can be scuzzy.

Could be different in Washington, and I hope OP gets paid, because needing a new engine SUCKS over something that seems like a simple mistake.