Will Volvo Ever Bring Back the Stick Shift ?
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    1. #1
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      Will Volvo Ever Bring Back the Stick Shift ?

      As an old school driver my family learned to drive on stick shift cars. Dad had a 1977 FIAT 128 and one of the mechanics back in the late 70s drove a late 70s SAAB 99. My first car after college was a 1991 VW Jetta GL 5 speed I bought used at Jack Daniels in Fairlawn NJ around 1994.

      My neighbors kids learned on manuals and I think learning on a manual transmission makes for a better driver.

      Dad's FIAT was always in the shop but he did test drive a late 70s BMW 3 series and a Golf. His brother, my uncle in Europe had a Mk 1 Golf which we drove.

      I have seen the previous first generation S60 which started in 2000 had sticks. I doubt Volvo would ever bring back the stick, but I still think learning on a stick shift makes for better drivers.
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    3. #2
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      Highly doubtful re: Volvo. Seriously considering a used manual transmission Subaru for my daughter when she gets to be driving age.
      2018 V60 T5 Dynamic AWD, Osmium Grey Metallic
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    4. #3
      Quote Originally Posted by Highwayman View Post
      As an old school driver my family learned to drive on stick shift cars. Dad had a 1977 FIAT 128 and one of the mechanics back in the late 70s drove a late 70s SAAB 99. My first car after college was a 1991 VW Jetta GL 5 speed I bought used at Jack Daniels in Fairlawn NJ around 1994.

      My neighbors kids learned on manuals and I think learning on a manual transmission makes for a better driver.

      Dad's FIAT was always in the shop but he did test drive a late 70s BMW 3 series and a Golf. His brother, my uncle in Europe had a Mk 1 Golf which we drove.

      I have seen the previous first generation S60 which started in 2000 had sticks. I doubt Volvo would ever bring back the stick, but I still think learning on a stick shift makes for better drivers.
      Other than sports cars, you'll be hard pressed to find a manual transmission in the U.S.. Heck, most people couldn't drive a manual, myself included....Insert attempting to drive a friend's Brand New Mustang about 7 or 8 years ago. Insisted it was so easy to drive manual.. Well I stalled the damn thing out countless times. Enough said on manuals!

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    6. #4
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      No reason to have a "true" manual anymore. With 10-speed automatics and lockup clutches on torque converters manual transmissions can't win on fuel economy anymore and DCTs are faster than "true" manuals on a race track so the two historic advantages of a manual simply don't exist anymore.

      The only reason to have a "true" manual anymore is nostalgia.
      I'm not good, I'm not nice, I'm just right.
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    7. #5
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      Quote Originally Posted by zenmervolt View Post
      No reason to have a "true" manual anymore.
      Please don't tell me your 944 is an auto. that would be so boring. Manuals are more fun! Thats the reason.

      Can you do a clutch drop tire shredding burnout with an automatic 944?

      Quote Originally Posted by zenmervolt View Post
      The only reason to have a "true" manual anymore is nostalgia.
      and fun.
      and reliability.
      and its a good way to keep valets, odd friends, bad family drivers, etc from driving your car.
      and although I agree with you that auto's are proving to be as fast or faster than shifting a manual transmission, they still can't anticipate what the driver is about to do. a driver with a manual trans always knows how it will behave, since they are in full control. there are situations that a manual will be better, for safety and speed.
      and did I mention tire shredding burnouts?

    8. #6
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      Quote Originally Posted by zenmervolt View Post
      No reason to have a "true" manual anymore. With 10-speed automatics and lockup clutches on torque converters manual transmissions can't win on fuel economy anymore and DCTs are faster than "true" manuals on a race track so the two historic advantages of a manual simply don't exist anymore.

      The only reason to have a "true" manual anymore is nostalgia.
      Besides nostalgia and a more alert driver (no hand for a smartphone) I would say it forces the kid to be mindful. One of the worst skids in my life occurred on a downward high speed merge on 4th gear my VW stalled on me and saved me from an embarrassing accident. Sticks handle better in snow and help the back wheels with the clutch engaged.

      For sure they are tough to learn but give it 2 or 3 days and itís a good skill to have. The left foot works hard sometimes it can get to be tough in traffic but again it forces the kids to stay off the dumbphone.

      Our daughter will be taking lessons this year on our beater Scion tC but I may consider a VW Golf, first gen S60, Subie or Benz roadster down the road as a classic or hobby car when I get closer to retirement and away from the city and closer to the country.

      Something about that downshift into 2nd or 4th gear is exciting, the wheels grip better and makes one feel more connected to the road.
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    9. #7
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      Totally agree stick shift is way more fun to drive and definitely more engaging. I wish more cars offered it.

      If Volvo offered it I'd consider the brand for my next car but it's highly doubtful.

      We still have Honda, VW Golf and Jetta, Mazda3, Genesis G70. A WRX would be nice if they make the hatchback again.

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    10. #8
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      Lets not forget the Hyundai I30N and Renault Megane RS!

      I was a teenager in the 80s and most affordable cars were stick, I had a friend who could hold a beer between his legs, smoke a cigarette and honk on a pipe whilst driving a stick, I wouldn't say we had less things to distract us back then!
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      Loved the Renaults and Peugots too

      Quote Originally Posted by thezoneS60 View Post
      Lets not forget the Hyundai I30N and Renault Megane RS!

      I was a teenager in the 80s and most affordable cars were stick, I had a friend who could hold a beer between his legs, smoke a cigarette and honk on a pipe whilst driving a stick, I wouldn't say we had less things to distract us back then!
      My smarter uncle had a Renault 4L I think back in the 70s and when he came back from France to Montenegro that car was so exotic. Tiny and unsafe by today's standards but we also had many taxi cab rides and drivers from hell in those 70s and 80s euro vacations in cars like the Russian Lada or Serbian Zastava 750 , related to the FIAT cars of those eras.

      Being close to 50 now it's hard for me to see what's going on with kids today. At least we had those beater type of cars to unleash the teenage turmoil on.

      And now in my distant memory I hear the ticking of a Rabbit Diesel or MB w114 diesels that I think always made it to at least 500,000 miles and were sure tough on those mountains. Seeing the farmers unload heir organic farm goods at the weekly market visits was not like going into a supermarket where everything goes in thru back loading docks and trucks.

      Something is lost in today's hustle.
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      Funny, my wife just said yesterday that she loves her 18' V90CC but she wishes it was a standard. When she needs a "manual fix" she drives the 07' V70.

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      Quote Originally Posted by GRUENDIG View Post
      Funny, my wife just said yesterday that she loves her 18' V90CC but she wishes it was a standard. When she needs a "manual fix" she drives the 07' V70.
      It's the opposite in our house. I get my manual fix from my wife's BMW 328 (that and the straight six fix).
      The market for manuals is small but manufacturers who offer it stand out compared to the competition. Everyone is making fairly decent cars these days compared to, say, 20 (or even 10) years ago. To me Volvo does not stand out as much as it used to.
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    14. #12
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      Quote Originally Posted by Almaz View Post
      It's the opposite in our house. I get my manual fix from my wife's BMW 328 (that and the straight six fix).
      The market for manuals is small but manufacturers who offer it stand out compared to the competition. Everyone is making fairly decent cars these days compared to, say, 20 (or even 10) years ago. To me Volvo does not stand out as much as it used to.
      Same. I drive my (wife's) '05 Outback 2.5i manual.
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      I just had a business trip in Ireland and I got a BMW 116D with the 6 speed. Driving on the opposite side of the road and using my opposite hand to shift was a blast!! For my regular manual fix, I have my 1972 Opel GT to drive, when the weather is nice!!

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      As Volvo is moving toward all electric cars or hybrid-electric, you can be sure that no manual transmission will come back. Unless it is some sort of "fake" manual transmission like Ford has showed on the electric Mustang at SEMA. With electric motors or hybridized motors, it simply becomes irrelevant.

    17. #15
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      Quote Originally Posted by straight6pwr View Post
      Quote Originally Posted by zenmervolt View Post
      No reason to have a "true" manual anymore.
      Please don't tell me your 944 is an auto. that would be so boring. Manuals are more fun! Thats the reason.

      Can you do a clutch drop tire shredding burnout with an automatic 944?
      Firstly, "anymore" is not the same as "1986" which is when my 951 was built. A modern 10-speed electronically controlled automatic is so incredibly different from the 3-speed pure hydraulic automatic used in the 944 (the 951 was never offered with an auto) that I'm honestly confused as to how you could possibly think I was referring to those old automatics when I specifically referenced the current day situation.

      I can have just as much "fun" with a DCT and I'll be faster in the process. It's a different kind of fun to be sure, but it's not like a DCT is unengaging.

      And you can't do a "clutch drop tire shredding burnout" with any 944. The NA cars only have about 150 horsepower and the vast majority have an open differential so even if you could break an old tire lose you'd be doing a really stupid looking one wheel peel. More realistically though, an attempt to do a clutch dump burnout in a 944 or 951 would simply result in blowing up the CV joints in the rear halfshafts and ending up with a car that has been rendered immobile because both halfshafts are now dangling from destroyed CV joints.

      Quote Originally Posted by straight6pwr View Post
      Quote Originally Posted by zenmervolt View Post
      The only reason to have a "true" manual anymore is nostalgia.
      and fun.
      and reliability.
      and its a good way to keep valets, odd friends, bad family drivers, etc from driving your car.
      and although I agree with you that auto's are proving to be as fast or faster than shifting a manual transmission, they still can't anticipate what the driver is about to do. a driver with a manual trans always knows how it will behave, since they are in full control. there are situations that a manual will be better, for safety and speed.
      and did I mention tire shredding burnouts?
      Fun doesn't sell family cars. And it doesn't even sell most sports cars since most sports cars are sold by numbers on paper. Family cars, and all Volvos are family cars despite what we want to believe, need to be decent in a commute and in mundane daily use, which means automatics are preferred. DCTs are faster on a track and so they will be preferred in sports cars today.

      Reliability is a red herring. As long as things last long enough for the first owner it's not going to be a concern for manufacturers. There's no reason for them to sell a "more reliable" manual when am automatic or DCT will last 150,000 miles without problems. It's a nice thing for us in the used market but for the new car market it's been obvious for decades now that automatics are reliable enough.

      There are just no good reasons today, with current automatics and DCTs, for manufacturers to put money into designing new manual transmissions. There isn't any good cost justification for brands like Volvo.

      Companies like Porsche or BMW will probably keep manuals around for "heritage" and "diving feel" but the reality is that both of these just amount to nostalgia.
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    18. #16
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      I don't think one needs to over complicate the question with facts, numbers, and failure diagnosis.
      This is purely a "feeling" issue and there is no right or wrong. Some people, myself included, like the feel of the manual transmission. To me it's more fun (no matter faster or not).
      Fun is totally subjective and does not have to make sense or mean the same thing for everyone.
      Yes, we all know, for a whole bunch of reasons, manuals are not coming. It's just wishful thinking.
      We'll all be driving EVs eventually and enjoying their simplicity I for one look forward to my first EV.
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      Electric actually gives a better chance to do manual than not even though fewer gears would be needed. It eliminates the need to separately certify a different drive train as there are no emissions to certify. at the very lease it opens up the legality of conversion. But the market just isn't there for a manual I don't think.

      As for the argument about automatics being more efficient... you could make the same argument that artificial insemination is more efficient... that doesn't make it better.

    20. #18
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      Quote Originally Posted by Almaz View Post
      I don't think one needs to over complicate the question with facts, numbers, and failure diagnosis.
      This is purely a "feeling" issue and there is no right or wrong. Some people, myself included, like the feel of the manual transmission. To me it's more fun (no matter faster or not).
      Fun is totally subjective and does not have to make sense or mean the same thing for everyone.
      Yes, we all know, for a whole bunch of reasons, manuals are not coming. It's just wishful thinking.
      We'll all be driving EVs eventually and enjoying their simplicity I for one look forward to my first EV.
      The question was whether Volvo will ever bring back the stick shift. That absolutely does have a right and wrong. That absolutely is about facts and numbers.

      I love the manual transmission. But I don't pretend that my nostalgic affection for it is a legitimate reason for a company like Volvo to invest in creating new vehicles with traditional manual transmissions. I don't see any reason for a company like Volvo to bring back a "true" manual transmission. A DCT is a possibility but even that seems unlikely with Volvo's target market.

      This isn't a knock on the traditional manual. It's simply understanding the current market and state of technology. Now that automatics are as efficient at transmitting power as manuals, are able to have 10 or more gears, have computer controls that allow manual shifting, and will last well over 100,000 miles without problems most of the reasons why traditional manuals were kept around from a manufacturer's perspective are just not there anymore. It's really expensive to design a linkage and a shift lever and all that, along with designing and engineering the transmission itself. Going all automatic or all DCT allows the gear lever (or, these days, knob) to be all electronic and much easier to fit into the interior. That extra flexibility in the design of the interior is great for manufacturers.

      My loving the traditional manual isn't going to give Volvo a reason to bring it back.
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    21. #19
      Quote Originally Posted by jlthunder View Post
      I just had a business trip in Ireland and I got a BMW 116D with the 6 speed. Driving on the opposite side of the road and using my opposite hand to shift was a blast!! For my regular manual fix, I have my 1972 Opel GT to drive, when the weather is nice!!
      Exact reason I didn't get rentals when I visited the UK some years back. Opposite side of road and Europeans love their manuals!

    22. #20
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      Quote Originally Posted by zenmervolt View Post
      The question was whether Volvo will ever bring back the stick shift. That absolutely does have a right and wrong. That absolutely is about facts and numbers.
      Agree. I meant loving or preferring a manual transmission is mostly emotional and has nothing to do with numbers (for the most part). The facts and numbers are on the Automatic transmission's and DCT's side.
      Not enough of us who think a MT is more fun to make manufacturers put one out. Certainly not Volvo. So yeah, if it means that much to us we can keep the MTs we have or get one while we can. Eventually it will be our "classic" car
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    23. #21
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      Quote Originally Posted by Almaz View Post
      Agree. I meant loving or preferring a manual transmission is mostly emotional and has nothing to do with numbers (for the most part). The facts and numbers are on the Automatic transmission's and DCT's side.
      Not enough of us who think a MT is more fun to make manufacturers put one out. Certainly not Volvo. So yeah, if it means that much to us we can keep the MTs we have or get one while we can. Eventually it will be our "classic" car
      Ah. I see. Sometimes it takes me a while; the side effects of me being a cranky old man. 😄
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    24. #22
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      Quote Originally Posted by Almaz View Post
      Agree. I meant loving or preferring a manual transmission is mostly emotional and has nothing to do with numbers (for the most part). The facts and numbers are on the Automatic transmission's and DCT's side.
      Not enough of us who think a MT is more fun to make manufacturers put one out. Certainly not Volvo. So yeah, if it means that much to us we can keep the MTs we have or get one while we can. Eventually it will be our "classic" car
      My V60 Polestar is of course an auto. In the run up to buying it, I considered a Golf R. Manual available, but then I found it was only available on the hatchback, not the estate (wagon). No engineering reason at all, just marketing. Stupid decision by VW really, the manual Golf R has become a sought after car in the UK. They excluded people that needed a wagon. Still, VAG know best, cheat the regulations and get away with it (in Europe at least )!

      In the UK, there are 2 levels of driving licences for cars/ vans; if you take your test in an auto, you are only allowed to drive autos as an unaccompanied driver. Pass your test in a manual and you can drive both ( plus there are some other bizarre towing regulations on licences; as I am old, I can tow a 3,500 kg trailer; younger drivers cannot !)

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      I have two motorcycles, one with a 6 speed manual and one with a 6 speed DCT. On a mountain ascent with switchbacks, the DCT is way more fun, allowing me to concentrate on throttle/brakes/steering without having to match RPMs to conditions. If I want to shift manually, I have paddles.

    26. #24
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      Quote Originally Posted by vroomr View Post
      I have two motorcycles, one with a 6 speed manual and one with a 6 speed DCT. On a mountain ascent with switchbacks, the DCT is way more fun, allowing me to concentrate on throttle/brakes/steering without having to match RPMs to conditions. If I want to shift manually, I have paddles.
      I've never really wanted a touring motorcycle (I tend to prefer the UJM style and roadsters) but that DCT on the new Gold Wing does make me very intrigued. Would love a CB1100 with that DCT but I don't think it'll ever happen.
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      Actually the DCT bike is the Honda CTX700. I like UJMs and roadsters, too, and the manual bike is a first edition R1200R(oadster), released before BMW hit later versions with an ugly stick. Yes, the CB1100 has great classic looks.

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      Quote Originally Posted by Almaz View Post
      I don't think one needs to over complicate the question with facts, numbers, and failure diagnosis.
      This is purely a "feeling" issue and there is no right or wrong. Some people, myself included, like the feel of the manual transmission. To me it's more fun (no matter faster or not).
      Fun is totally subjective and does not have to make sense or mean the same thing for everyone.
      Yes, we all know, for a whole bunch of reasons, manuals are not coming. It's just wishful thinking.
      We'll all be driving EVs eventually and enjoying their simplicity I for one look forward to my first EV.
      This is why I still hope to someday get a used well maintained stick shift car like a Golf, SAAB 900, first or second gen BMW 3 series, etc as a hobby car/weekend roadster. Purely for fun, not for commuting. The first gen S60 is not out of the question or maybe even an old 240 with a stick (looks like a brick..lol) but as one of my weekend pastimes I will search used car lots for these types of cars and test drive them. I have about 15 more years till retirement but I hope to get it in about 10 years so I can I have it figured out and broken in by the time I retire.

      Loved the posts up there by the guy that went to Ireland and had to drive a stick lefty, the one guy that still drives a 1972 Opel GT (Cool !) but the best post by far so far was by the guy comparing an auto and manual to artificial insemination. Motorcycling is one step beyond the risk taking I think my bones have left..but it's definitely an option for some. It's all about the fun !

      Lada Riva was one of those tough cars we had in Eastern Europe, and Golfs, but for budget reasons most of the farmers opted for the 80s Zastava Fica. Whoever wanted to stand out got an MB 300 SD or better had it imported when it was economically easier in the 80s, but not now.
      Last edited by Highwayman; 11-20-2019 at 08:42 AM.
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      Quote Originally Posted by zenmervolt View Post
      Companies like Porsche or BMW will probably keep manuals around for "heritage" and "diving feel" but the reality is that both of these just amount to nostalgia.
      There is nothing "nostalgic" about me preferring a manual transmission over an automatic or DCT on a sports car. I prefer it simply because I enjoy driving it more. I wouldn't want to get a manual transmission in a crossover SUV family hauler because there is no benefit to it (and I don't see much benefit in a V60 T5 either for that matter). But I can see a benefit to a manual transmission in a car that one owns specifically for the driving pleasure because they are (to some people) more pleasurable to drive. I don't understand how you can say "driving feel" just amounts to "nostalgia."

      To that end, it doesn't bother me one bit that we can't get a generic lux sedan with a manual transmission. You are right that there isn't really a point. However, I think every convertible and almost every 2 door car should be available with a manual. But we're barely seeing manufacturers make convertibles anymore, so I don't think my vehicle preferences are very much in line with the general car buying public these days.
      Last edited by meade18; 11-20-2019 at 10:38 AM.
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      Quote Originally Posted by meade18 View Post
      I don't understand how you can say "driving feel" just amounts to "nostalgia."
      They're both purely subjective experiences generating pleasure for an individual based on familiar sensations that the individual has come to associate with positive emotion. I don't see any practical difference between the two in the context of this discussion. "Driving feel" and "nostalgia" are both essentially null words denoting a non-rational* emotive experience that brings joy to an individual. While "driving feel" is a more specific subset of nostalgia inasmuch as it deals strictly with vehicles I simply don't see much semantic distance between using the more general "nostalgia" over the less general "driving feel."

      But I'm drifting into semantic theory and that means I'm probably also drifting from the thrust of conversation. Suffice it to say that I would consider a preference for a specific driving feel to be a subset of nostalgia because I see it as representing a desire for, and legitimate enjoyment of, a set of sensations that were established as "right" to an individual's perceptions during a formative period in that individual's experience.

      *Note: My use of "non-rational" as opposed to "irrational" is strongly intentional. The latter term carries a negative connotation that I do not mean to invoke here. "Non-rational" preferences are valid and positive and my intent is merely to point out that no one chooses the things that bring them joy through a coldly rational process.
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      Quote Originally Posted by Almaz View Post
      It's the opposite in our house. I get my manual fix from my wife's BMW 328 (that and the straight six fix).
      The market for manuals is small but manufacturers who offer it stand out compared to the competition. Everyone is making fairly decent cars these days compared to, say, 20 (or even 10) years ago. To me Volvo does not stand out as much as it used to.
      I also get my fix from my girlfriend's Accent Hatch !
      I find it so much more rewarding and fun driving manual. But I'm pretty sure we'll never see another manual Volvo in North America.
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      even a Hyundai can make a fun day !
      or a Honda if you wanna, or a Toyota toy for that matter ! Nissan insanity or perhaps a KIA see ya !
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      Quote Originally Posted by zenmervolt View Post
      They're both purely subjective experiences generating pleasure for an individual based on familiar sensations that the individual has come to associate with positive emotion. I don't see any practical difference between the two in the context of this discussion. "Driving feel" and "nostalgia" are both essentially null words denoting a non-rational* emotive experience that brings joy to an individual. While "driving feel" is a more specific subset of nostalgia inasmuch as it deals strictly with vehicles I simply don't see much semantic distance between using the more general "nostalgia" over the less general "driving feel."

      But I'm drifting into semantic theory and that means I'm probably also drifting from the thrust of conversation. Suffice it to say that I would consider a preference for a specific driving feel to be a subset of nostalgia because I see it as representing a desire for, and legitimate enjoyment of, a set of sensations that were established as "right" to an individual's perceptions during a formative period in that individual's experience.

      *Note: My use of "non-rational" as opposed to "irrational" is strongly intentional. The latter term carries a negative connotation that I do not mean to invoke here. "Non-rational" preferences are valid and positive and my intent is merely to point out that no one chooses the things that bring them joy through a coldly rational process.
      Linking "driving feel" and "nostalgia" assumes that we "non-rationally" give preference to things we used to like. I LOVED my 1970 Ford Galaxie Convertible. I have nostalgic feelings for that car. Yet I don't ever want another car with ANY of its features besides the folding roof. If I were nostalgic for that car, wouldn't I have a non-rational preference for a 3 speed automatic column shifter in the same way I have a non-rational preference for a six speed manual transmission because I liked the Sentra SE-R I had in college? (another car I would never choose to own again even though it never gave me a single problem)
      I have driven all kinds of car with all kinds of transmissions and I find certain transmissions more preferable in certain types of cars. I think it's likely that many people's preferences for transmission type is based on a rational evaluation of their preferences, driving habits, and prior experience. Is that the case for everyone? No. Does nostalgia play a fact for some folks? Yes. But not nearly as big a factor as I think you are saying.

      Maybe I'm just caught up on the semantics because you can be nostalgic for anything in the past. You could be nostalgic for your very first car, or your buddy's corvette you drove last week, or rowing through the gears in your S2000 on a twisty road 5 minutes ago. In that sense, yes driving feel is 100% percent about nostalgia because nostalgia = positive experience you want to recreate.
      2015.5 Volvo V60 Premier T5 FWD (with a new engine)

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      Quote Originally Posted by meade18 View Post
      Linking "driving feel" and "nostalgia" assumes that we "non-rationally" give preference to things we used to like. I LOVED my 1970 Ford Galaxie Convertible. I have nostalgic feelings for that car. Yet I don't ever want another car with ANY of its features besides the folding roof. If I were nostalgic for that car, wouldn't I have a non-rational preference for a 3 speed automatic column shifter in the same way I have a non-rational preference for a six speed manual transmission because I liked the Sentra SE-R I had in college? (another car I would never choose to own again even though it never gave me a single problem)
      I have driven all kinds of car with all kinds of transmissions and I find certain transmissions more preferable in certain types of cars. I think it's likely that many people's preferences for transmission type is based on a rational evaluation of their preferences, driving habits, and prior experience. Is that the case for everyone? No. Does nostalgia play a fact for some folks? Yes. But not nearly as big a factor as I think you are saying.

      Maybe I'm just caught up on the semantics because you can be nostalgic for anything in the past. You could be nostalgic for your very first car, or your buddy's corvette you drove last week, or rowing through the gears in your S2000 on a twisty road 5 minutes ago. In that sense, yes driving feel is 100% percent about nostalgia because nostalgia = positive experience you want to recreate.
      I guess itís all relative in the end. I absolutely hated some things about Dadís 1977 FIAT 128 but when I got my 1991 Jetta GL 5 speed it was so much more roomier and refined.

      FIAT gets a bad rap as a brand and Dad sure took a lot of abuse from his friends when he was teaching us to drive with that. Now that my daughter will be taking driverís ed soon I thought about it but donít want her to fight with the car in traffic plus her smartphone so I got a 2010 Scion tC as a beater. Once she figures it out in about a year and gets it together by college time sheíll pick her own.

      Right now as it comes full circle she likes the Jeep Renegade crossover which ironically shares some things with FIAT Chrysler...go figure. I donít know if that will bode well for long term reliability so I may steer her away from the Renegade, but at least itís not a Wrangler...what I fought with Dad to get but settled for a Jetta.

      Dad finally caved in to abuse from his friends and got us a much roomier and smoother powerfrain with the 1988 Dodge Caravan SE. Not exactly a babe magnet but better than a FIAT. Why on earth he liked FIAT was his nostalgia of it reminded him of Zastava, the Yugoslavian version of FIAT he had to have in America. Lol
      2012 S60 T5 FWD & 2013 XC90 AWD

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      Quote Originally Posted by gobluetwo View Post
      Highly doubtful re: Volvo. Seriously considering a used manual transmission Subaru for my daughter when she gets to be driving age.
      Volvo offers 6 speed manual with smaller engine like S60 D3, S90 D4... yes diesel
      just like other automakers, they dont have manual transmission that is capable handling big amounts of torque/power.
      also push for lower CO2 emissions creates the challenge and CVT,7,9,9,10 speed trans puts the engine in optimal/more efficient operation.

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