T8 Electric Range...falling behind?
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    1. #1
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      T8 Electric Range...falling behind?

      So Iíve been looking for a replacement for our 2012 XC60 R-Design for a couple of years and my foray into electrification (2012 Chevy Volt replaced in 2016 with a Tesla Model S) had me hooked so I new it had to be either fully electric or a plug-in hybrid. I waited for the T8 XC60 only to be disappointed in the electric range (sub 20 miles) - but I loved the performance numbers.

      On the flip side, Volvo was one of the few manufacturers to even offer a plug-in hybrid SUV so kudos to them for that Next year (in the U.S.) however, BMW will introduce their next gen of the X5 PHEV with what will likely be over 30 miles (EPA) of EV range. More impressively, Toyota just previewed the new Toyota RAV4 Prime at the LA Auto show, and are indicating it will have 300 HP, and a 39 mile EV range. Yes, it wonít be nearly as nice as an XC60, but honestly, one of the most ďluxuryĒ features a car can have is a smooth electric drivetrain and one thing life with a Volt taught me is that you would always like ďjust a bit moreĒ electric range. I also have to wonder if there will be a Lexus RX equivalent (not my favorite SUV, but they less a ton of them in the luxe SUV segment).

      On top of all this, Californiaís state rebate will disappear for plug-in hybrids with less than 35 miles of range (admittedly, not that big of a deal given that it is also disappearing for cars over $60K).

      Given that Volvoís XC60 is a relatively new re-design Iím not sure how much more capacity they can jam in there (and yes, I know the chemistry will improve, but it isnít going to double by 2021).

      Of course Volvo may just be putting all their eggs into full electrification with cars like the XC40 BEV.
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      Engineering is always a bit of a compromise. One of the nice aspects of the Volvo T8s is the general lack of interference with cabin space. A smaller center console, a little hump in the center rear seat and the loss of space for a spare tire. There simply isn't more room for a bigger battery given that focus. That being said, I have told our rep that I think most customers are either not interested in hybrids in general or are ready for the next phase. I'm very pleased to have a full electric option next year with XC40 and really hope to see more of that. As a car guy, I think full electric will help lead to a new age of performance motor sport now that the EPA will be out of the way. I personally would probably do fine with 50 to 100 mile range for a pure electric commuter. Comparing next gen not yet released vehicles to technology several years old isn't really a fair comparison either. Volvo may well use up their federal tax credits quickly as well if they make a full switch as is the plan, and honestly I don't seen much of a reason not too. The T8 can be driving just like a normal car with no extra thought to the electric component or you can get into the grit and tweak the full range.

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      There is some possibility:

      - Design carefully and add more battery under or behind rear seats in 5-seat car maybe with a smaller 13gal fuel tank to make some space. or

      - Build a range extender PHEV. Remove the 8AT transmission and put in more battery. It can be designed to let ICE drive the front wheels above 50mph when battery is low. No much compromise on efficiency. This is actually what I prefer.

      Competitors are going with longer battery range and Volvo will need to follow too. And they want to encourage more charging anyways.

      But PHEV will always be a niche market. Not sure how much R&D they would spend on it.

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      Last edited by FusionRedXC60; 11-30-2019 at 12:22 PM.
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    6. #4
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      Quote Originally Posted by FusionRedXC60 View Post
      ...PHEV will always be a niche market.
      That's my guess as well. For us, we wouldn't have a problem with one of the long range BEVs near where we live - there are plenty of places to get a charge (though only Tesla fast chargers.) But if we want to take a road trip? Maybe not. I'm originally from Montana and would like to go back to visit, but get away from the major 'cities' and interstates and range anxiety could be a real issue. Ditto visiting our northern neighbors.

      We've done the bleeding edge thing in other areas and decided not to in our sole automobile. If we were planning to have a second car maybe, but we just don't need one and parking is kind of tight around here anyway. So, for us, at least until the infrastructure is in place - better still, when we have the ability to recharge a BEVs batteries in the amount of time it takes to pump a tank of gas - we'll let others push the boundaries. We'll be content to timidly dip our toes in and make use of the fact that for us anything over 75 miles is a major road trip.

    7. #5
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      Ideally, for any PHEV Iíd like to get all of our ďnormalĒ monthly driving done on electric wit the gas reserved for the edge days and out of town trips. Call it 80% electric. THe Tesla crowd will declare supercharging is just as convenient for out of town trips, but in reality, it isnít. Itís definitely DOABLE, but thatís not the same thing. Our old Volt, with 37 miles of range, did that for us. However, our driving pattern has now changed and we either do less than 20 miles a day or closer to 70....with most of our total miles coming from the latter...so a higher EV range plug-in is what weíd love to see.

      I have to agree with you guys though that the whole PHEV thing may just be temporary for Volvo...and everyone else. A shame really as the state of charging is still not where weíd all like it to be for worry free out of town travel.
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      I wish when EVs get more popular, and more people drive EV for long trips and charge stations along freeway becomes crowded and queued up, people will turn to PHEV for good.

      We really don't need to go for pure EV and abandon gasoline within 50 or even more years, but most people only learn from real lesson.

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      Last edited by FusionRedXC60; 11-30-2019 at 11:32 PM.
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    9. #7
      Junior Member BigBang's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by cab View Post
      I also have to wonder if there will be a Lexus RX equivalent (not my favorite SUV, but they less a ton of them in the luxe SUV segment)..
      There is a good alternative, Audi e-tron and e-tron sportback (sportback available since December)

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    10. #8
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      The cheapest XC60 is roughly $41K. The T8 version is $54.5K. Now the PHEV option is nice, but itís not $13.5K nice, in my opinion. Itís not that consumers arenít interested in hybrids or not ready for them. Itís basic economics. People arenít made of money and choose whatever gives them the greatest return of their money.

    11. #9
      Junior Member Catfiend's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Joeyboy View Post
      The cheapest XC60 is roughly $41K. The T8 version is $54.5K. Now the PHEV option is nice, but itís not $13.5K nice, in my opinion. Itís not that consumers arenít interested in hybrids or not ready for them. Itís basic economics. People arenít made of money and choose whatever gives them the greatest return of their money.
      It would be interesting to know the percentage of T5 -vs- T6 -vs- T8 that are sold. To me it wouldn't be a comparison of the FWD T5, but of the AWD at $43K then the T6 at $46.5K and the T8 at $54.5K. In my case that would be less the $5k tax credit so $49.5K.

      What is it worth to me to make those first steps toward zero emissions? How about no engine noise? Immediate torque? Lower fuel bill (electricity is cheap here and our solar panels will provide a chunk of that as well)?

      We'll each have our own value equations that we use to determine the options we choose (or do we just get a Subaru, Hyundai or Kia and call it good - most likely much better ROI than any of the Volvos.) At an earlier stage in my life I'd have made different choices and that's fine, too. We're not made of money but we have decided how we want to set our priorities - in this case the Volvo will mean working for roughly 3 months longer before retiring. I sized that up and decided it was a good trade.

    12. #10
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      Quote Originally Posted by Joeyboy View Post
      The cheapest XC60 is roughly $41K. The T8 version is $54.5K. Now the PHEV option is nice, but itís not $13.5K nice, in my opinion.
      The price difference between the T6 and T8 is $8k (T8 is a superset of the T6). After the $5k federal credit and $2.5k state credit (TX), it's a $500 premium.

      At $500, it makes perfect financial sense when I'm averaging 50+ mpg, 4.9 second 0 - 60, tow a 3,500 lb boat, and go on road trips without worrying about charging. Show me another vehicle that can do that for $55k.
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    13. #11
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      Yeah I'm afraid we have a bit of growing up to do before electric range is improved. The xc40 electric is a good step, but not far enough. 300 epa should be the norm. For PHEV's, I'd say 50 with 30-40 average mpg at minimum. BMW seems to be heading in that direction for the new round of PHEVS's, at least the X5 anyway.

      And by the way, watch the winter mpg and range start sinking like a rock just about now...
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      Quote Originally Posted by Joeyboy View Post
      The cheapest XC60 is roughly $41K. The T8 version is $54.5K. Now the PHEV option is nice, but itís not $13.5K nice, in my opinion. Itís not that consumers arenít interested in hybrids or not ready for them. Itís basic economics. People arenít made of money and choose whatever gives them the greatest return of their money.
      Minus tax refund, it is 8.5k diff on a T5 and I feel it is well worthy. You may not recover the diff by fuel cost saving, but the T8 is much better in so many ways. You may not appreciate it and still think T8 is same as T5 in terms of transportation. Then why get a T5 at all. Any eco SUV model from other mfg is much less costy than T5 and can get you from A to B.

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      Last edited by FusionRedXC60; 12-02-2019 at 07:18 PM.
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      Quote Originally Posted by xgman View Post
      Yeah I'm afraid we have a bit of growing up to do before electric range is improved. The xc40 electric is a good step, but not far enough. 300 epa should be the norm. For PHEV's, I'd say 50 with 30-40 average mpg at minimum. BMW seems to be heading in that direction for the new round of PHEVS's, at least the X5 anyway.

      And by the way, watch the winter mpg and range start sinking like a rock just about now...
      Practically, I'd want a range extender PHEV that transmission is not needed and more battery can be put in. Then it is easy to reach 50 miles range, and still as convenient in long trip.

      For practicality again, I will not buy EV as my only car.

      Zero emission of CO2 is NOT POSSIBLE to reach. Just think about how much natural gas your house heater burns every winter.

      It is good to save fuel when possible. But I definitely would be reasonable first, not for extremely pure clean energy consumption.

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    16. #14
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      Quote Originally Posted by FusionRedXC60 View Post
      Practically, I'd want a range extender PHEV that transmission is not needed and more battery can be put in. Then it is easy to reach 50 miles range, and still as convenient in long trip.
      So why haven't they become more popular? It seems like a great idea and a more solid step toward BEVs, but there don't appear to be many of them and the ones that are out there don't look to be big sellers (maybe the Volt was and GM killed it for other reasons?)

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      Quote Originally Posted by Catfiend View Post
      So why haven't they become more popular? It seems like a great idea and a more solid step toward BEVs, but there don't appear to be many of them and the ones that are out there don't look to be big sellers (maybe the Volt was and GM killed it for other reasons?)
      Because people buy hypes, not the car or technology. They don't understand the difference well.

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    18. #16
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      Quote Originally Posted by Catfiend View Post
      So why haven't they become more popular? It seems like a great idea and a more solid step toward BEVs, but there don't appear to be many of them and the ones that are out there don't look to be big sellers (maybe the Volt was and GM killed it for other reasons?)
      IMHO itís because the tech is still in itís relative infancy ó it still costs more for an owner to enter and perhaps does not pay back over the short term most buyers own their vehicle (especially if one leases) like a similar-equipped ICE. Remember, ICE are effectively the defacto standard based on decades of experience and manufacturing efficiencies. Today, Hybrids and BEVs remain a harder sell for anyone that cares first about their own immediate financial benefit, especially if they donít have the right mix of declining federal/state/utiltity rebates, higher annual mileage, higher fuel costs where they live, and an expected longer term of ownership that combined may offset those entry cost premiums.

      Iíve owned premium Hybrids and BEV since one of the first Lexus RX400h hit the west coast in 2005, and couldnít justify itís incremental cost on financials alone then when my annual mileage was beyond the norm and gas prices remained relatively high here in SoCal; Let alone my next RX450h as my annual mileage was declining and where I lived in the Southeast with significantly lower fossil fuel costs; or for my Tesla Model S 4 years ago when I had already planned for and installed a few months later, incremental solar panels on my roof to offset 100% of my BEV ďfuelĒ costs; or my XC60 T8 that is in the middle of the Atlantic on itís way to me now. I stopped years ago debating Hybrids and BEV financials with a majority of people if thatís all they cared about, unless they first gave an indication performance (torque) or a transportation solution that may have a little less impact on the environment was something of interest (even if it cost them a bit more out-of-pocket dollars in the short run.)

      While Iíve been supportive of Hybrid technology and am about to take delivery on my 3rd, I personally believe BEV are the real next answer. They by design have less moving parts than any Hybrid and are less complex (meaning less cost), and are far better for our Planet assuming we figure out the whole L-ion/Rare-Earth-Materials thing for the long haul. As BEV delivered volumes increase, they should become the new norm in some form or another. The real problem for BEV is the complexity figuring out the right price point(s) for onboard battery sizes the market demands, and then the ďrefuelingĒ infrastructure (time & cost) to make both daily and long term road trips something people will accept compared to ICE and the decades-old ďa gas station is on the next corner and it takes <10 mins to refuelĒ mentality. No single mfgr except Tesla has attempted to take on both sides of that equation (mfgr + refueling) on their own, so itís more complex for all others to figure out. The debates and opinions will continue. Time will tell.
      Last edited by BertL; 12-02-2019 at 09:12 PM. Reason: Added BEV is the long-term future point
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      Quote Originally Posted by Catfiend View Post
      So why haven't they become more popular? It seems like a great idea and a more solid step toward BEVs, but there don't appear to be many of them and the ones that are out there don't look to be big sellers (maybe the Volt was and GM killed it for other reasons?)
      For some reason, most EVís are marketed towards cleaner environment and cost effectiveness. Almost everyone ignores the performance benefits of instant torque, no more turbo lag. This is slowly changing with some of the more recently launched *EVís.

      I also think lack of charging at home is a real problem to sell more Plug-In EVís. When I think back at the last 7 places Iíve lived at in the past 20 years, only two of them had convenient charging.
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    20. #18
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      Quote Originally Posted by Catfiend View Post
      So why haven't they become more popular? It seems like a great idea and a more solid step toward BEVs, but there don't appear to be many of them and the ones that are out there don't look to be big sellers (maybe the Volt was and GM killed it for other reasons?)
      2021 will be the break out year for Electric and even better PHEV range. Virtually every manufacturer has a solid pipeline now for 21 onward.
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      Quote Originally Posted by FusionRedXC60 View Post
      Then why get a T5 at all. Any eco SUV model from other mfg is much less costy than T5 and can get you from A to B.
      Donít stop at the T5. Just tell people to ride a bicycle from point A to B, if they donít consider a T8.

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      Quote Originally Posted by Joeyboy View Post
      Donít stop at the T5. Just tell people to ride a bicycle from point A to B, if they donít consider a T8.
      There are expensive bicycles too.

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      Our 2013 Chevy volt was the gateway drug. Not going to the gas station was great. Quiet, instant torque ... Followed in 2016 with our xc90T8. I have wanted more EV range and hate it when the engine starts in the cold with 1 more mile to work or home and 5+miles of EV range remaining. The volt became a Bolt and my wife loves it. Our visits to her family in Southeastern Ohio would not work with any current Bev. We could get there and get home with superxhargers, but only have 120 volt access at the B and B that we stay in. If we were staying in Columbus it would be fine, but not 70 miles east. Winter traveling can also get more challenging. When traveling with the family we do stop often, but when we want, where we want, not when we have to due to battery range. A small range extending ICE would be great combined with 100 ish miles of battery. When traveling you could run the engine to maintain the battery charge and for supplemental heat. All the rest of the time it could be a great BEV. Now if there was a great EV/range extending hybrid replacement for my Tacoma for occasionally towing the 6k pound boat and hauling the MTBs to the trailhead.

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      It really depends how the reviewer look at the car.
      If he wants sporty car first, T8 P* is fast but not very sporty.
      If he wants a comfortable car first, with sporty ingredient, then T8 P* is perfect.

      One thing I don't like is the separate power mode and need to switch by a button and a click. The switching should be only one button press, such as a button next to the volume knob.

      But I like a comfort mode when I press gas pedal lightly, and transit to power mode when I press deeper. That will be much better.
      Current hybrid mode is too gentle. It doesn't run e-motor and ICE together to give you big boost.
      Last edited by FusionRedXC60; 12-05-2019 at 03:37 PM.
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      Junior Member BigBang's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by xgman View Post
      An interesting fact journalist writes that Polestar has a 415HP Volvo on its official website states 405HP for Polestar. Someone's information is incorrect - Volvo or journalist

      Last edited by BigBang; 12-09-2019 at 01:28 PM.
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      Quote Originally Posted by BigBang View Post
      An interesting fact journalist writes that Polestar has a 415HP Volvo on its official website states 405HP for Polestar. Someone's information is incorrect - Volvo or journalist

      Not sure which website you are looking, but UK and US has slightly different horsepower unit.
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      Quote Originally Posted by FusionRedXC60 View Post
      Not sure which website you are looking, but UK and US has slightly different horsepower unit.
      Right. Different emission control stuff and who knows what all else (maybe even different methods of measuring some things - though probably not this.) Several of those variants aren't available in the United States - no diesels to start with.

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      Quote Originally Posted by Catfiend View Post
      Right. Different emission control stuff and who knows what all else (maybe even different methods of measuring some things - though probably not this.) Several of those variants aren't available in the United States - no diesels to start with.
      I mean it is confusing because measurement is done differently in different countries:

      https://www.carthrottle.com/post/wha...-hp-kw-and-ps/
      Horsepower can become a tricky business however, with values measured in different ways. BHP (brake horsepower) refers to the equipment needed to test the engines for their power outputs, with a large drum with a water brake within it measuring the braking force once the engine is spinning at a desired rate. Over in the US, this is measured with only some ancillary components attached to the powertrain, missing things like the power steering pump which would lead to a lack of parasitic losses if in place. Therefore higher ĎHPí figures are calculated in the US than the BHP figures calculated in Europe where every component is kept in place.
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      Quote Originally Posted by FusionRedXC60 View Post
      Horsepower can become a tricky business however, with values measured in different ways. BHP (brake horsepower) refers to the equipment needed to test the engines for their power outputs, with a large drum with a water brake within it measuring the braking force once the engine is spinning at a desired rate. Over in the US, this is measured with only some ancillary components attached to the powertrain, missing things like the power steering pump which would lead to a lack of parasitic losses if in place. Therefore higher ĎHPí figures are calculated in the US than the BHP figures calculated in Europe where every component is kept in place.
      Thank you for the information on the differences. I know the general but not that the US did without the other equipment attached.

    32. #30
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      Quote Originally Posted by FusionRedXC60 View Post
      Not sure which website you are looking, but UK and US has slightly different horsepower unit.
      Volvo Cars Global and Volvo international

      bot is 405 HP 318 HP (233kW) + 87 HP (65kW) = 405 HP

      I know the difference between HP and PS but there can be no difference 10HP

      https://www.volvocars.com/intl/cars/...ations/engines


      Volvo UK, DE, A , Norv.....in EU is same T8 Twin Engine 318+87 = 405HP


      Even stranger, Polestar declares that the T8 Twin Engine is 230kW, which is 3kW less than what Volvo websites say

      https://engineered.polestar.com/us/p...tomatic-2020-3
      Last edited by BigBang; 12-09-2019 at 06:12 PM.
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      I believe EU engines use an exhaust particulate filter, which reduces the output by 10 hp.
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