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    1. #36
      Member Avboden's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by silverV60 View Post
      they are on a path where they don't stand out or lead in any single criteria against the competition.
      Other than safety Volvo has *never* lead in any single criteria. Never the fastest, never the most luxury, okay I guess 90s cargo space in the wagon segment they were the best but c'mon, Volvo has always been a sort of do-it-all at a reasonable price brand. If you're looking for a sportscar go buy something else. Enough of this crap if you think i'm who they are catering to and you're not then I have one word for ya

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    3. #37
      Junior Member MJEWETT's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by silverV60 View Post
      Quote Originally Posted by risrael View Post
      Completely useless tests. Who is ever going to use these speeds and accelerations? Maybe on a German autobahn. Let's crash the cars into eachother and see who will survive
      Those days are long gone when Volvo used to dominate the crash test ratings. That safety image has stuck around thanks to slick marketing but almost every other brand has caught up thanks to new and improving technologies. In fact- the S60 was an IIHS top safety pick for 2019 whereas the 3 series and C class were top safey pick +'s. Same goes for their SUV's. And if safety is the top priority- why the worst braking in the test?
      In regards to safety ratings... let’s not forget that the only reason why any Volvo’s of recent didn’t obtain the “+” designation was due to headlight ratings which are only taken into consideration I believe by IIHS. All models still received ratings of “good” in all categories, including pedestrian safety and crash prevention. After making adjustments mid-2019 to the headlights, all 2020 models now received “+” designations with the adaptive lighting package.

      Whether or not companies have caught up to Volvo recently is really still debatable. I look at it more as companies have caught up to passing the required tests, rather than truly having the same level of developed safety into each model as Volvo’s. You can easily engineer a car to pass specific tests with flying colors, but that doesn’t mean it’s actually safe in all aspects of the word.

      Perfect example is when the first-gen XC90 was crash tested in the then-new small overlap drivers side crash test, and was one of the few, if not only (I don’t quite remember), Mid-size luxury suv that passed the test. Considering a model that was developed through the very end of the 90’s and early 2000’s and released as a 2003 model, with no structural changes throughout its lifecycle, passed a test with flying colors 10 year later shows how deep Volvo’s safety really runs. Once cars started failing this test miserably, they re-engineered their models to pass. Two years later, IIHS started testing the passenger side under the same situation. Guess what... those models once again failed. The cars were only re-engineered to literally pass the specific test they knew they had to pass, rather than decide to show concern for both front passengers and apply the safety fix to both sides. Once again, Volvo’s were passing the new tests and companies were running back to the drawing board after having been caught counting every last penny even if it caused casualties.

      For the longest time, they were one of the very few, along with Saab, to crash test their own vehicles with much more scrutiny and more types of crashes than the actual safety companies. I think that says it all. At this point, I hardly even consider the ratings and outcomes of these tests these days, because even IIHS has said recently its becoming increasingly harder to display who ranks on top under controlled and specific tests that manufacturers had years to master passing. I’m sure the next new test that they develop Volvo will once again prove to have already mastered while others are shown to be lacking.

    4. #38
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      Quote Originally Posted by MJEWETT View Post
      In regards to safety ratings... let’s not forget that the only reason why any Volvo’s of recent didn’t obtain the “+” designation was due to headlight ratings which are only taken into consideration I believe by IIHS. All models still received ratings of “good” in all categories, including pedestrian safety and crash prevention. After making adjustments mid-2019 to the headlights, all 2020 models now received “+” designations with the adaptive lighting package.

      Whether or not companies have caught up to Volvo recently is really still debatable. I look at it more as companies have caught up to passing the required tests, rather than truly having the same level of developed safety into each model as Volvo’s. You can easily engineer a car to pass specific tests with flying colors, but that doesn’t mean it’s actually safe in all aspects of the word.

      Perfect example is when the first-gen XC90 was crash tested in the then-new small overlap drivers side crash test, and was one of the few, if not only (I don’t quite remember), Mid-size luxury suv that passed the test. Considering a model that was developed through the very end of the 90’s and early 2000’s and released as a 2003 model, with no structural changes throughout its lifecycle, passed a test with flying colors 10 year later shows how deep Volvo’s safety really runs. Once cars started failing this test miserably, they re-engineered their models to pass. Two years later, IIHS started testing the passenger side under the same situation. Guess what... those models once again failed. The cars were only re-engineered to literally pass the specific test they knew they had to pass, rather than decide to show concern for both front passengers and apply the safety fix to both sides. Once again, Volvo’s were passing the new tests and companies were running back to the drawing board after having been caught counting every last penny even if it caused casualties.

      For the longest time, they were one of the very few, along with Saab, to crash test their own vehicles with much more scrutiny and more types of crashes than the actual safety companies. I think that says it all. At this point, I hardly even consider the ratings and outcomes of these tests these days, because even IIHS has said recently its becoming increasingly harder to display who ranks on top under controlled and specific tests that manufacturers had years to master passing. I’m sure the next new test that they develop Volvo will once again prove to have already mastered while others are shown to be lacking.
      Yeah, that''s totally fair. At the end of the day- if i was involved in a bad multi car wreck, would I rather be in a Volvo or a Hyundai or Kia that earned a top safety pick + rating? Of course I would take my chances in the Volvo any day. But I don't think i would fare much worse in any modern BMW, Audi or Mercedes either. They use the same super expensive ultra strong boron steel found in Volvos too now. It wasn't like 20 years ago where you would only find that in either a Volvo or a Porsche. But I guess that's why we pay a premium for these cars. Luxury car buyers now put safety at the top of their lists too so the other German were forced to compete. I give Volvo credit for that.
      Last edited by silverV60; 01-05-2020 at 01:33 PM.

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    6. #39
      Junior Member genesmasher's Avatar
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      Just my quick 2 cents. I just test drove a M340i last week. Stoooopid amount of power in a very compact package. Fit and finish is excellent, certainly on par with S60, although Nappa leather is not available (in US at least). Engine has a lovely grunt, especially in Sport Plus.

      M340i is very "in your face" and appeals more to a younger crowd, IMHO. For those who are not looking to race at every stop light, and simply want a comfortable, understated, quiet driving experience - S60 maybe a better choice, despite performance trade offs. S60 design language is more streamlined and elegant (unfortunately undermined to a large extent by terrible color options available). S60 (in lower trims) is also significantly cheaper than the BMW. M340i I test drove was $61K - nicely equipped S60 is at least $10K less.

      Having said that, I personally will not be buying another S60 or M340i in a few months. I'm 99% sure I will be going to a BMW 5-series. That car has the Volvo refinement and understated elegance TOGETHER with BMW's smooth power and driving dynamics (sporty enough for me, now in my 50's). For not much more money, with current incentives.
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    7. #40
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      Quote Originally Posted by MJEWETT View Post
      Perfect example is when the first-gen XC90 was crash tested in the then-new small overlap drivers side crash test...
      That moment was a great peek "under the covers" of the "safety rating" game. You just don't get that sort of look into how things are done very often. I believe it is super important for all the marketing depts that the cars have good safety ratings, but that doesn't mean the cars are all engineered with safety other than passing the tests as a goal. Of course without anything other than the ratings test to judge that you never know. The most egregious evidence of this I recall is the Ford F-series having a specific brace only on the driver's side for some years when the offset crash was only done on that side.

      Back to the merits of the T8 hybrid...the electric AWD ruins it in my mind, and we are talking play money here since it was way outta my price range. You only have so much battery so you can't have the dynamics you want all the time as the battery runs low and you go to FWD. If I was convinced that would never happen I'd concede but it doesn't seem the battery capacity is that high. So to me despite the clear deficit in HP the T6 with conventional AWD is the better sporty sedan.

      The Polestar is doubly curious, if you take the view here that some have "it's not a sports car(sedan?) it's a Volvo" I don't disagree...but then you have the big gold brakes and adjustable Ohlins. The Ohlins in particular and manually adjustable is straight up track day special stuff. So it's a very odd inclusion. However the limited production of these can allow them to just be the "ultimate Volvo" without competing at all with any other car. At low volumes there will be Volvo fans to buy them. It does not seem Volvo is trying to make a statement to //M cars with this model.

      The new 340i is rip snorting fast! Not surprised it smoked them all.

    8. #41
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      Quote Originally Posted by Power6 View Post
      Back to the merits of the T8 hybrid...the electric AWD ruins it in my mind, and we are talking play money here since it was way outta my price range. You only have so much battery so you can't have the dynamics you want all the time as the battery runs low and you go to FWD. If I was convinced that would never happen I'd concede but it doesn't seem the battery capacity is that high. So to me despite the clear deficit in HP the T6 with conventional AWD is the better sporty sedan.
      From what I've read if you have it Power mode or AWD mode both the engine and electric motor are always on, and it will run the generator to keep the electric motor 'fed'. Of course that will sap some of the HP from the gas engine but I don't know how much. Not to say you're not right about the T6 being a better sporty sedan as it can throw more power to the rear wheels than the T8 can.

    9. #42
      Junior Member beers's Avatar
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      AWD is always available in the T8, regardless of battery level.

      http://volvo.custhelp.com/app/answer.../~/drive-modes

      - Constant AWD mode
      activates all-wheel drive to increase traction and sets Electronic Stability Control to Sport mode. It is designed for use mainly at lower speeds in slippery driving conditions such as ice and snow. AWD is constantly available, even when the battery charge is depleted. This mode reduces fuel economy.
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    10. #43
      Junior Member Catfiend's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by beers View Post
      AWD is always available in the T8, regardless of battery level.

      http://volvo.custhelp.com/app/answer.../~/drive-modes

      - Constant AWD mode
      activates all-wheel drive to increase traction and sets Electronic Stability Control to Sport mode. It is designed for use mainly at lower speeds in slippery driving conditions such as ice and snow. AWD is constantly available, even when the battery charge is depleted. This mode reduces fuel economy.
      Right, and here it says the same thing for Power mode:
      https://www.volvocars.com/uk/support...cs/drive-modes

      "Both the internal combustion engine and electric motor are engaged in order to drive all four wheels, which results in increased fuel consumption.

      The drive mode is optimised for maximum performance and response during acceleration. It changes the internal combustion engine's accelerator pedal response, gear shift pattern and boost pressure system. Chassis settings, steering and brake response are also optimised. Power drive mode is always available regardless of the battery's state of charge."

    11. #44
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      Definitely the T6 could be much better sporty sedan. With less weight and abou 380 PS it could be much faster. T8 Polestar Engineered is not about performance, it is about ideology.

    12. #45
      Quote Originally Posted by visualv View Post
      My ideal configuration would be a V60 chassis paired with a Audi TFSI twinturbo V8 engine and the DSG transmission....but that would never happen. I can't stand the look of the new Audi design flow.
      Anyways, do you know of any Dyno done on a SPA T6 or T8 with P* engineering?


      Sent from my ONEPLUS A6013 using Tapatalk
      We've run the S60 with and without P* optimization, nothing outside of that at the moment and I haven't had a chance to dyno the T8 or the Polestar (if someone wants to bring one here before we get our own, we'll run it).

      I will say, that if you look at the wheel hp results (the dyno calculates engine hp output based on dissipation and coast down from the run, so just looking at the comparison of wheel hp), the difference between the non opt. and optimized versions was less than I expected it would be. There is some difference in the curve (which is why the engine hp calculation is different) but the peak boost didn't vary as much as I thought it might. The shifting and throttle curve feels different, but overall the power output shows a difference of 252whp vs 258whp, and it's difficult to feel 6-7hp on the road. Take that information for what it is.

      https://vaitrixusa.com/blogs/dyno-da...-spa-t6-engine
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    13. #46
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      Quote Originally Posted by VaitrixUSA View Post
      We've run the S60 with and without P* optimization, nothing outside of that at the moment and I haven't had a chance to dyno the T8 or the Polestar (if someone wants to bring one here before we get our own, we'll run it).

      I will say, that if you look at the wheel hp results (the dyno calculates engine hp output based on dissipation and coast down from the run, so just looking at the comparison of wheel hp), the difference between the non opt. and optimized versions was less than I expected it would be. There is some difference in the curve (which is why the engine hp calculation is different) but the peak boost didn't vary as much as I thought it might. The shifting and throttle curve feels different, but overall the power output shows a difference of 252whp vs 258whp, and it's difficult to feel 6-7hp on the road. Take that information for what it is.

      https://vaitrixusa.com/blogs/dyno-da...-spa-t6-engine
      Hard to say without the two runs on the same graph, but it appears that the P* tune is doing what is advertised, which is it bumps midrange power and torque. Your note about peak HP and torque also aligns with what they advertise, and isn't really the primary goal of P*.

      P* definitely adjusts throttle response, shift speed (and shift points for the Dynamic/Polestar Engineered profile), and uses revised fuel and boost maps for the Dynamic/Polestar Engineered profile.

    14. #47
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      Quote Originally Posted by VaitrixUSA View Post
      We've run the S60 with and without P* optimization,
      The shifting and throttle curve feels different, but overall the power output shows a difference of 252whp vs 258whp, and it's difficult to feel 6-7hp on the road. Take that information for what it is.

      https://vaitrixusa.com/blogs/dyno-da...-spa-t6-engine
      Those numbers look to match the gains that Polestar suggest. It would be cool to see the Optimised vs Non optimised curves overlayed on the same graph
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    15. #48
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      Quote Originally Posted by Wayne T5 View Post
      Yeah, I guess I was thinking of that interview and to be fair, building SUV's is Volvo's bread and butter and is hugely profitable for them. The performance car enthusiast can look elsewhere. It's a perfectly reasonable business case and at least he was being honest so there's that - refreshing.
      Well, building SUVs is also Porsche's "bread and butter". And the point about Polestar is performance. So it's not unreasonable for CarWow to do a fun drag race with a vehicle that Volvo purports to be a luxury performance car.

    16. #49
      Senior Member Wayne T5's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by cometguy View Post
      Well, building SUVs is also Porsche's "bread and butter". And the point about Polestar is performance. So it's not unreasonable for CarWow to do a fun drag race with a vehicle that Volvo purports to be a luxury performance car.
      I didn't think it was unreasonable at all and pretty hilarious but I don't think I'd compare Porsche and Volvo when it comes to performance, which I would surmise is a core competency of the former, not so much the latter.
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    17. #50
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      Volvo has abandoned the true legacy of Polestar and Volvo R. polestar is being re-marketed as the electrical division by Geely. But those words carry such weight and legacy to loyal Volvo fans and customers (and the whole car enthusiast community) that the slick marketing department couldn’t completely abandon those terms and came up with “Polestar engineered” and “R-design”. Couldn’t even bother to make the R design with a standard sports suspension set up. It’s not carwow’s fault for including the S60. You see polestar and you remember the previous S60/v60. I don’t understand why we couldn’t have a true polestar SPA S60. It would have sold better than the embarrassment that is the S60 T8.

    18. #51
      Senior Member Wayne T5's Avatar
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      Volvo's always had a love/hate relationship with performance cars - some early surprising success with the T-5R followed by 20+ years of inconsistent products and not so great sales. The P3 Polestar cars only sold a few hundred in the US every year, sort of a rounding error. I can't imagine the SPA PE cars will sell all that well.
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    19. #52
      Quote Originally Posted by MidnightSnooze View Post
      Those numbers look to match the gains that Polestar suggest. It would be cool to see the Optimised vs Non optimised curves overlayed on the same graph
      I can re-export the graphs overlayed onto each other. I also have runs for both in each driving mode. It's interesting to see how much changes between the modes in the curve.


      There is definite reason to see Volvo's claims are accurate, I'm definitely not disputing that. There changes with the optimization are primarily focused on drivability refined experience (which is why many, including myself, love about Volvo). I think as car enthusiasts we naturally expect upgrades to equate to all out power, and some of their changes are not as superficial as that.

      They used the word optimization intentionally and for good reason, that's exactly what it is.
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      Volvo recognized that their cars are boring and thus polestar. However I don’t think Volvo is going to go so far as to try and compete on straight line 0 to 60. Polestar is more about branding than making a real hardcore sports car. I’d be looking to polestar for mostly engine and transmission tunes that improve responsiveness. But don’t expect miracles. They are still very much committed to safety and fuel and electricity economy. It’s very similar to Pilot Assist which in theory could be very aggressive but in reality Volvo gimps it with maybe 1/2 the possible functionality because they are afraid people will get careless if PA is too good.

      Same thing with polestar. It could be a true performance brand but it will likely be gimped at every turn by safety and economy concerns. If you want a brand that will cut loose and give you stuff even if it’s grossly irresponsible I’d be looking at Tesla. Ludicrous mode, autopilot, etc.

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      As Schmitty noted, these aren’t sports cars. My V90R Design wagon has paddle shifters! Paddle shifters?? Second, does anyone else think that drag races are a really stupid way to test a car?

    22. #55
      Quote Originally Posted by MidnightSnooze View Post
      Those numbers look to match the gains that Polestar suggest. It would be cool to see the Optimised vs Non optimised curves overlayed on the same graph
      Here's a graph with both versions overlayed, as well as all of the other stock driving modes. There are some interesting differences in the curves between the two.

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      Quote Originally Posted by MOV90Rwagon View Post
      As Schmitty noted, these aren’t sports cars. My V90R Design wagon has paddle shifters! Paddle shifters?? Second, does anyone else think that drag races are a really stupid way to test a car?
      Any Volvo with the super- and turbo-charged engine should have paddle shifters, and that's one reason that has kept me from getting a new T6 or T8 Volvo. The gear-shifting in these isn't the best (T5s are much more smooth), as the car's computer seems to struggle between the supercharger and turbocharger, and having paddle shifters would really help by allowing the driver to immediately shift when the car isn't doing so and should be doing so.

    24. #57
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      Quote Originally Posted by VaitrixUSA View Post
      Here's a graph with both versions overlayed, as well as all of the other stock driving modes. There are some interesting differences in the curves between the two.

      That's a poorly labeled graph. The key at left with four drive modes doesn't match the eight graph lines in a logical manner, unless we're missing something in the labeling. I assume that a Polestar-tuned car is represented by the four roughly parallel lines across the top, and the non-tuned drive modes are represented by the slugglishly rising four roughly parallel lines that go from lower left to upper right. Assuming this to be the case, I'm still surprised that the Polestar tune would make this much of a difference.

    25. #58
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      Quote Originally Posted by Wayne T5 View Post
      Volvo's always had a love/hate relationship with performance cars - some early surprising success with the T-5R followed by 20+ years of inconsistent products and not so great sales. The P3 Polestar cars only sold a few hundred in the US every year, sort of a rounding error. I can't imagine the SPA PE cars will sell all that well.
      Well, I test-drove a stock 2007 S80 sedan with a naturally aspirated V8 engine yesterday, and I can say that I'd love to see Volvo put a naturally aspirated V8 into a 2021 Cross Country wagon! I'd be at the front of the line to buy one.

    26. #59
      Quote Originally Posted by cometguy View Post
      That's a poorly labeled graph. The key at left with four drive modes doesn't match the eight graph lines in a logical manner, unless we're missing something in the labeling. I assume that a Polestar-tuned car is represented by the four roughly parallel lines across the top, and the non-tuned drive modes are represented by the slugglishly rising four roughly parallel lines that go from lower left to upper right. Assuming this to be the case, I'm still surprised that the Polestar tune would make this much of a difference.


      No, no, no.
      The 4 somewhat flat curves bundled together are the torque curves. The climbing bunch of curves represents the horsepower curves.
      The Polestar curves are brownish plots in both torque and HP.
      Last edited by digital_dreamer; 01-08-2020 at 06:04 PM. Reason: Including quote
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      Quote Originally Posted by digital_dreamer View Post

      No, no, no.
      The 4 somewhat flat curves bundled together are the torque curves. The climbing bunch of curves represents the horsepower curves.
      The Polestar curves are brownish plots in both torque and HP.
      OK, makes more sense! Thanks!

    28. #61
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      Quote Originally Posted by VaitrixUSA View Post
      Here's a graph with both versions overlayed, as well as all of the other stock driving modes. There are some interesting differences in the curves between the two.
      Wow, thanks! I think this the first time I've seen a dyno graph of the Polestar curve.

      So the torque dip at 3500-4000, I'm assuming this is the supercharger to turbocharger exchange?

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    29. #62
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      That graph is helpful and shows kind of what I expected to see. My only question is which gear was this done in? 3rd?

    30. #63
      Quote Originally Posted by cometguy View Post
      Any Volvo with the super- and turbo-charged engine should have paddle shifters, and that's one reason that has kept me from getting a new T6 or T8 Volvo. The gear-shifting in these isn't the best (T5s are much more smooth), as the car's computer seems to struggle between the supercharger and turbocharger, and having paddle shifters would really help by allowing the driver to immediately shift when the car isn't doing so and should be doing so.
      Our S60 T6 (R-Design) does have paddle shifters. They work fairly well, although I find that to get quicker times, auto mode is often faster unless when doing the manual shifting you shift a few hundred rpm before redline.
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    31. #64
      Quote Originally Posted by MidnightSnooze View Post
      Wow, thanks! I think this the first time I've seen a dyno graph of the Polestar curve.

      So the torque dip at 3500-4000, I'm assuming this is the supercharger to turbocharger exchange?

      Sent from my SM-T713 using Tapatalk
      Yes, the dip for the most part seems to happen right around the time the supercharger de-clutches and the turbo is left to continue spool. The one very noticeable thing in regards to Dynamic mode and more so with the Polestar optimization is that peak boost is not so much increased as it is more linear, and in this particular area you've mentioned, the turbocharger seems to have more spool after the SC has disengaged, allowing boost to already be at optimal compressor speed. Boost is maintained more steadily and is more readily available. We tried to take advantage of this with the piggyback tune as well, since it can vary the signal changes based on load and rpm. We can use the unit to fill out this area of the power band to maintain that initial peak torque for longer.
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    32. #65
      Quote Originally Posted by nbvolks View Post
      That graph is helpful and shows kind of what I expected to see. My only question is which gear was this done in? 3rd?
      Dyno runs have typically been in 3rd and 4th gear, with some testing done in 5th.

      All of the published dyno runs are done in 4th gear, which is what we've used the most.
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    33. #66
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      Quote Originally Posted by VaitrixUSA View Post
      Dyno runs have typically been in 3rd and 4th gear, with some testing done in 5th.

      All of the published dyno runs are done in 4th gear, which is what we've used the most.
      Ive heard that dynos should be run in the gear that gives the closest 1:1 ratio. In the case of the newer 8 speed, is that not 6th gear?
      2015.5 V60 T5e - Various suspension and P* bits

    34. #67
      Quote Originally Posted by MidnightSnooze View Post
      Ive heard that dynos should be run in the gear that gives the closest 1:1 ratio. In the case of the newer 8 speed, is that not 6th gear?
      That's usually true for chassis dynos (like a dyno jet) because of how it measures power at the drum (and how the numbers can be inflated from using a lower gear).

      This is not the case for a load bearing dyno (like ours, which measures by a combination of forces). The load can be analyzed from gear shifts, and the proper amount of resistance is applied to the rollers based on this calculation when we select the gear we're running in. It is not necessary in this case to use a 1:1 ratio, and doing so in higher gears runs out the dyno run so long that it reads a very high amount of dissipation on coast down. The result is lower whp, but very high calculated engine hp because it thinks there is more drivetrain loss. We run in the gears that are the most consistent and accurate (and because we do not have to apply the 1:1 rule).

      5th gear actually nets the best peak power and torque, but the run time is longer. Running in 4th gear allows for more runs within a period without requiring a cool down. This is especially useful for tuning development, and the output is only slightly less at the wheels than 5th gear.
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    35. #68
      Member lamarguy's Avatar
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      Because the S60 in the video is a T8, here are the relevant acceleration (acc), RPM (engine speed), and torque curves (ICE + ISG - front axle, ERAD - rear axle):

      OSD '18 XC60 T8 Momentum - 22" 10-spoke wheels, lowered air suspension, strut tower bar, Stealth hitch

    36. #69
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      Quote Originally Posted by VaitrixUSA View Post

      This is not the case for a load bearing dyno (like ours, which measures by a combination of forces).
      I ran mine on a load dyno as well (200hp for the P* T5 Drive E) and they ran it in 4th. But they didn't use the coast down to derive a engine HP number.
      2015.5 V60 T5e - Various suspension and P* bits

    37. #70
      Junior Member Kamil's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by MidnightSnooze View Post
      I ran mine on a load dyno as well (200hp for the P* T5 Drive E) and they ran it in 4th. But they didn't use the coast down to derive a engine HP number.
      Just something to consider as I found it out with my modern Audi not sure if the same with Volvo but it’s hard to test the car on a dyno even a all wheel drive one on new cars because the difference in wheel speeds especially from front to rear will make the car to reduce power.

      So I would not think any dyno numbers on the car are correct. I could be wrong and Volvo is different then Audi
      2020 V60 CC
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