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    1. #36
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      I would like to give the Kia Stinger a test drive and see how it feels.
      The RWD platform and utility of a fastback are appealing to me. It's not an Audi but it costs much less too.
      2012 S60 T5 Savile Gray/Beachwood

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    3. #37
      Senior Member Wayne T5's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by gobluetwo View Post
      I would never get a Giulia. Fun car, but ridiculously unreliable. I have a friend who had one for less than a year before trading it back in because it was so fraught with issues. Every long term review I've read says pretty much the same thing. Out of warranty, it'll be a money pit, I'd wager.
      An Alfa never changes it's spots, lol.

      Signed, Long Suffering Alfa Owner from the 80's
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    4. #38
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      I'll toss my hat in the ring although I'm not a V owner.

      I've had many mixed experiences with VW products between the Audi and two VW's I owned (all were the same platform). I'm not sure I want to roll the dice with them anymore.

      BMW, I'm not sure where they're going with their styling at the moment - especially the enormous buck tooth gaping kidney grills the BMW team wants to put on everything as the new family trademark. I have had haunting experiences with their 3-Series in the past and the new 3-Series uses a new kind of front suspension. New innovation + mechanical + BMW = Problematic and expensive to fix or replace.

      The Cadillac CTS-V Blackwing interests me, but I don't think it interests me enough to jump into GM.

      My heart tells me it would want to give a used Tesla Model S with the dual motor option a try.
      2009 XC90 3.2 AWD l Oyster Grey / Bi-Xenon / Dynaudio / BLIS / VNS / RSE / THULE Aeroblade

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    6. #39
      Junior Member ckmack's Avatar
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      I'd be curious about the BMW M2 or M235. Still available with a stick, looks tossable, good modification community around it, german build quality
      Daily Driver: 2017 V60 T6 R-Design Bursting Blue / Black, 37k, "Bertie"
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    7. #40
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      Quote Originally Posted by ckmack View Post
      I'd be curious about the BMW M2 or M235. Still available with a stick, looks tossable, good modification community around it, german build quality
      German build quality doesn't have the same connotation it used to. It used to mean precision machining, high tolerances, above average fit and finish, and durability brought together in a package of thoughtful design and engineering.

      Today it means above average fit and finish packaged in needlessly complex bordering on absurd, not particularly user serviceable, chocked full of too many sensors in an often irritatingly sensitive and fragile platform.

      2009 XC90 3.2 AWD l Oyster Grey / Bi-Xenon / Dynaudio / BLIS / VNS / RSE / THULE Aeroblade

    8. #41
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      I have a good friend who is an Audi mechanic at a dealership. His advice to me was to never buy an Audi. That coupled with the fact that I can't tell the difference in any model they make keeps me disinterested. Except that new Avant wagon looks pretty great.

      I'll probably hang on to the V60 for a while and build the 1983 Caprice Wagon I have for a fun car. Big engine, low suspension and lots of noise, all for about $2000.
      2015.5 V60
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    9. #42
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      Quote Originally Posted by ShadowDancer View Post
      German build quality doesn't have the same connotation it used to. It used to mean precision machining, high tolerances, above average fit and finish, and durability brought together in a package of thoughtful design and engineering.

      Today it means above average fit and finish packaged in needlessly complex bordering on absurd, not particularly user serviceable, chocked full of too many sensors in an often irritatingly sensitive and fragile platform.

      I have worked on a couple German cars, and I get what you're saying here. That "German Engineering" sketch looks almost exactly like the multi link front suspension I have seen in Audis. However one thing I think the Germans have a pretty solid "handle" on is suspension design. Competent handling at speeds in excess of 150 mph is an actual engineering design consideration on their average "family" sedans.

      They do have a tendency to needlessly over complicate things in the engine bay though. Lots of single components that serve multiple functions. On the Audi B5 platform, I did think it was pretty clever that they use the front structural tube of the front subframe as a boost delivery pipe from the turbo to the intercooler. That area can get pretty cramped on a turbo car.

    10. #43
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      Quote Originally Posted by ShadowDancer View Post
      Today it means above average fit and finish packaged in needlessly complex bordering on absurd, not particularly user serviceable, chocked full of too many sensors in an often irritatingly sensitive and fragile platform.
      My other car is a 1986 Porsche 944 Turbo. The book time for a clutch replacement is almost 24 hours. The phrase "needlessly complex" has been true of German cars for at least 3 decades. It ain't new. =P
      I'm not good, I'm not nice, I'm just right.
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    11. #44
      Junior Member ckmack's Avatar
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      Oh I don't disagree that they can sometimes be overbuilt, I guess I was more talking about build quality over something American made
      Daily Driver: 2017 V60 T6 R-Design Bursting Blue / Black, 37k, "Bertie"
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    12. #45
      Junior Member R-Design M&M's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Veefifty T5AWD View Post
      Driving by a Volvo lot these days is like driving by the Buick lot. No more passion red, rebel blue, or anything resembling sporty and fun.
      Sad, but true. I got to agree.
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    13. #46
      Quote Originally Posted by PM View Post
      +1. Absolutely hate the direction went with only producing only 4 cylinder or less engines. That was the defining moment they lost my future new car business.
      Benz/bimmer/VAG have all adopted turboed/plugin 4 bangers throughout their range. Itís just the way of the future. Does that mean you wonít buy any of those either?

    14. #47
      Quote Originally Posted by Veefifty T5AWD View Post
      I guess I should have better written my sentence - the "old man" was in reference to just the cars. I don't mind the SUV lineup, but think the car side of the design isn't targeting young, sporty buyers. But maybe that speaks to your comment, too.
      Millennials prefer ride sharing.....https://www.forbes.com/sites/jackner.../#2691c32720b0

      So by your assertion alone, people owning a vehicle are "old men". I'd prefer to drive where I need to go and thoroughly enjoy not being at the behest of public transportation or ride sharing. Sure, for those living in Chicago, East Coat (D.C. / New York City), etc with robust metro lines, driving is less an issue. But for most of the United States, I'd definitely prefer the creature comforts of my own vehicle!

      I would probably still get a Volvo buy swap over to a V60 or XC60. Though, I like the nimble nature and fuel economy of my T5 FWD 15.5 S60. I drive a lot and it's nice to get 510-550+ miles out of a 17 gallon tank. I avg about 32MPG.

      But the trunk space and hauling capacity of a sedan are quite spartan and limited. I had a V40 and loved the capacity but when that got knocked out of commission, I went for an S60.

      FYI...I hope being almost 38 doesn't make me "old". Sheesh.
      Last edited by MyVolvoS60; 01-17-2020 at 12:30 PM.

    15. #48
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      Quote Originally Posted by tonyc View Post
      Benz/bimmer/VAG have all adopted turboed/plugin 4 bangers throughout their range. Itís just the way of the future. Does that mean you wonít buy any of those either?
      Correct! Will not consider any BMW/MB or VAG with a 4 cylinder. Also have no interest in anything hybrid. The technology does not warranty the cost, vehicle weight gain, complexity, or the claimed mpg gain.
      1998 Volvo C70 - Mystic Silver/Charcoal, Stage III
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    16. #49
      Member Veefifty T5AWD's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by MyVolvoS60 View Post
      So by your assertion alone, people owning a vehicle are "old men".

      FYI...I hope being almost 38 doesn't make me "old". Sheesh.
      My statement had nothing to do with the age of people who own cars - it was that the design looks like something targeting an older generation - there's nothing sporty about them!
      Logan

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    17. #50
      Quote Originally Posted by PM View Post
      Correct! Will not consider any BMW/MB or VAG with a 4 cylinder. Also have no interest in anything hybrid. The technology does not warranty the cost, vehicle weight gain, complexity, or the claimed mpg gain.
      Well our prius w/ the lith ion pack (~$25K) gets ACTUAL 60mpg, my vR gets

      anyway, I'd like a fun estate that doesn't get 17mpg like my SPA truck rn. It's just too annoying when you're putting on 20K mi/year and you're constantly going to the gas station enough though the tank is 18gal.

    18. #51
      Quote Originally Posted by Veefifty T5AWD View Post
      My statement had nothing to do with the age of people who own cars - it was that the design looks like something targeting an older generation - there's nothing sporty about them!
      I like my 15.5 S60. Personally, I think the 2019 S60 redesign looks even more aerodynamic, sleek, and refined.

      Volvo's not a porsche, corvette, or mustang by any means. Certainly, if you're shopping around for a muscle car or one that'll do 0 to 60 in seconds flat, a trip to the local Volvo dealer will come up empty handed. Volvo doesn't have a "sports car line".

      Volvo is more practical than showmanship. You'll find no Audi R8, Audi TT, BMW I8, Mercedes AMG GT esque cars from Volvo.

      So I guess what you're arguing is that Volvo needs to develop it's own brand of sports car to attract a younger crowd?

    19. #52
      Quote Originally Posted by MyVolvoS60 View Post
      I like my 15.5 S60. Personally, I think the 2019 S60 redesign looks even more aerodynamic, sleek, and refined.

      Volvo's not a porsche, corvette, or mustang by any means. Certainly, if you're shopping around for a muscle car or one that'll do 0 to 60 in seconds flat, a trip to the local Volvo dealer will come up empty handed. Volvo doesn't have a "sports car line".

      Volvo is more practical than showmanship. You'll find no Audi R8, Audi TT, BMW I8, Mercedes AMG GT esque cars from Volvo.

      So I guess what you're arguing is that Volvo needs to develop it's own brand of sports car to attract a younger crowd?
      In short, yes.

      I'll (hopefully) have the disposable income for something more "fun" that doesn't have to double as my daily driver in a few years. Polestar could easily build that car. Volvo needs to let them build it.
      06 S40 T5 AWD : DO88 intercooler : 3" EST downpipe : Eibach springs (1" drop) : Magnaflow cat-back exhaust : Hilton stage 2.5 tune

    20. #53
      Junior Member Catfiend's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by silent-circuit View Post
      In short, yes.

      I'll (hopefully) have the disposable income for something more "fun" that doesn't have to double as my daily driver in a few years. Polestar could easily build that car. Volvo needs to let them build it.
      I'm not sure it's Volvo's call. I believe it's probably Geely's, and they would probably rather have someone wanting a sports car buy a Lotus. Not to say that Polestar won't do something sportier in the future but my guess is that they want to make some money first and some sharp electric cars at a relatively reasonable price are how they're planning to do it.

    21. #54
      Senior Member Wayne T5's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by silent-circuit View Post
      In short, yes.

      I'll (hopefully) have the disposable income for something more "fun" that doesn't have to double as my daily driver in a few years. Polestar could easily build that car. Volvo needs to let them build it.
      As long as you're interested in a car with a heavy dose of electrification then Polestar will have a car for you for a price. If that's not your cup of tea then best to look elsewhere.
      Past: '94 854, '99 S70 T5 SE, '99 S70 GLT, '04 S60R M, '12 S60 T5, '13 S60 T5, '15 S60 RD, '05 V70R GT
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    22. #55
      Quote Originally Posted by Wayne T5 View Post
      As long as you're interested in a car with a heavy dose of electrification then Polestar will have a car for you for a price. If that's not your cup of tea then best to look elsewhere.
      I'm down with the batteries. Instant torque is real.

      That said, they need to keep up with Tesla and the rest if they're going that route.
      Last edited by silent-circuit; 01-17-2020 at 03:36 PM.
      06 S40 T5 AWD : DO88 intercooler : 3" EST downpipe : Eibach springs (1" drop) : Magnaflow cat-back exhaust : Hilton stage 2.5 tune

    23. #56
      Quote Originally Posted by Catfiend View Post
      Quote Originally Posted by silent-circuit View Post
      In short, yes.

      I'll (hopefully) have the disposable income for something more "fun" that doesn't have to double as my daily driver in a few years. Polestar could easily build that car. Volvo needs to let them build it.
      I'm not sure it's Volvo's call. I believe it's probably Geely's, and they would probably rather have someone wanting a sports car buy a Lotus. Not to say that Polestar won't do something sportier in the future but my guess is that they want to make some money first and some sharp electric cars at a relatively reasonable price are how they're planning to do it.
      I think Volvo's core values or more about safety than sport. However, if Mercedes and BMW can have an exclusive sports car line, maybe it's worth Geely giving Volvo and Polestar some lattitude to develop a vehicle to compete.

    24. #57
      Junior Member Catfiend's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by MyVolvoS60 View Post
      I think Volvo's core values or more about safety than sport. However, if Mercedes and BMW can have an exclusive sports car line, maybe it's worth Geely giving Volvo and Polestar some lattitude to develop a vehicle to compete.
      It would be kind of fun to see, but at the moment I'd rather see them concentrate on dull stuff like being profitable and solidly enough established in what they see as their main focus (safety, luxury and electrification, apparently) that they could afford to play on the fringes. Boring, I admit, but better boring and viable than another SAAB.

    25. #58
      Junior Member RibzV60CC's Avatar
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      I would probably go to Lebanon Ford in Ohio and get one of the 725-800hp Mustang GTs for $40k that they sell

    26. #59
      Quote Originally Posted by MyVolvoS60 View Post
      I think Volvo's core values or more about safety than sport. However, if Mercedes and BMW can have an exclusive sports car line, maybe it's worth Geely giving Volvo and Polestar some lattitude to develop a vehicle to compete.
      It's a shame Polestar is a subsidiary: wish we were dealing with old school AMG. They could go crazy and get all the enthusiast money.
      06 S40 T5 AWD : DO88 intercooler : 3" EST downpipe : Eibach springs (1" drop) : Magnaflow cat-back exhaust : Hilton stage 2.5 tune

    27. #60
      Senior Member Wayne T5's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by MyVolvoS60 View Post
      I think Volvo's core values or more about safety than sport. However, if Mercedes and BMW can have an exclusive sports car line, maybe it's worth Geely giving Volvo and Polestar some lattitude to develop a vehicle to compete.
      Volvo is too small, it would never be able to compete with the likes of MBZ and BMW, which have a 40 year head start and deserved and dedicated following. Volvo's interest in performance cars to date has been inconsistent at best. Performance is not a core competency for Volvo so it makes sense that they focus on building SUVs that make money.

      Geely has given us the Polestar 1, 2, and 3 so if you like those cars then Polestar has a car for you.
      Past: '94 854, '99 S70 T5 SE, '99 S70 GLT, '04 S60R M, '12 S60 T5, '13 S60 T5, '15 S60 RD, '05 V70R GT
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    28. #61
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      Quote Originally Posted by budleach View Post
      . Competent handling at speeds in excess of 150 mph is an actual engineering design consideration on their average "family" sedans.

      They do have a tendency to needlessly over complicate things in the engine bay though. Lots of single components that serve multiple functions. On the Audi B5 platform, I did think it was pretty clever that they use the front structural tube of the front subframe as a boost delivery pipe from the turbo to the intercooler. That area can get pretty cramped on a turbo car.
      I agree they do an excellent job at considering speeds well in excess of what any normal driver would drive at 99.9% in a sedan.
      As for the B5 platform, ask anyone who owned a B5 S4 how ďcleverĒ it was of Audi to wedge in a V8 backwards when it came time do front side work on the engine. When it came time to perform the major service (T-belt, water pump, guides, ...) most owners saw the cost and threw the car away figuratively speaking.

      Quote Originally Posted by zenmervolt View Post
      My other car is a 1986 Porsche 944 Turbo. The book time for a clutch replacement is almost 24 hours. The phrase "needlessly complex" has been true of German cars for at least 3 decades. It ain't new. =P
      While true, it used to only be two maybe three things. Now itís damn near everything. Porsche for instance routes pipes and lines THROUGH components via relief cuts in the component rather than design it correctly so thereís no interference in the design or make additional allowance for space.

      BMW, you cannot visually check your oil level. There is no dipstick and dip tube on their new engines! The owner has to rely on a sensor (great more sensors to fail or send error codes) and a display function buried in an idrive submenu to determine oil life and level.
      2009 XC90 3.2 AWD l Oyster Grey / Bi-Xenon / Dynaudio / BLIS / VNS / RSE / THULE Aeroblade

    29. #62
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      "BMW, you cannot visually check your oil level. There is no dipstick and dip tube on their new engines! The owner has to rely on a sensor (great more sensors to fail or send error codes) and a display function buried in an idrive submenu to determine oil life and level."

      So just exactly like newer Volvo's then?
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    30. #63
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      Quote Originally Posted by Seaway View Post
      "BMW, you cannot visually check your oil level. There is no dipstick and dip tube on their new engines! The owner has to rely on a sensor (great more sensors to fail or send error codes) and a display function buried in an idrive submenu to determine oil life and level."

      So just exactly like newer Volvo's then?
      I never implied the "new" Volvo was excluded from drinking the same glass of stupid juice as the others.

      In fact, I've been critical of both the complexity of Drive-E 4 cylinder engines and using an undersized, highly stressed motor as the power plant for a heavy 7 passenger vehicle (XC90).

      It's a recipe for expensive maintenance, repairs and questionable long term durability.
      2009 XC90 3.2 AWD l Oyster Grey / Bi-Xenon / Dynaudio / BLIS / VNS / RSE / THULE Aeroblade

    31. #64
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      Last edited by volvoxc9008; 01-22-2020 at 09:59 PM.

    32. #65
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      Quote Originally Posted by ecoDrive View Post
      The Volvo Concept Coup, but since that's not happening probably the S60 T8. The Audi A5 is a very close second if only it wasn't a VW.
      The Polestar 1 is basically the Concept Coupe. Thatís what itís design was based off of.


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    33. #66
      Junior Member volvoxc9008's Avatar
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      I think my next car if I left Volvo would be a Mercedes GLC. Mercedes seems to be the only other brand dedicated to safety like Volvo and I love their interiors.


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      After I mile out my V60 rdesign Iíll be done with Volvo for myself anyways. We also have a new XC60 that the wife drives. Iíll be moving back to audi for a wagon or onto Mercedes for a C class wagon with the AMG treatment. Iím not a fan of the 4 cylinder engines in the new volvos.


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      Indeed MB interiors are classy and tasteful. You do feel like you're in a luxury car. Volvo is not there yet. I'd put my money on a CPO Mercedes rather than a Volvo.

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    36. #69
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      Competing head to head in all segments is what kills smaller car companies... Volvo does Volvo pretty darn well. That being said, I'd be down with a CMA convertible for some entry luxury fun. I believe Volvo and Saab are still the only companies to make a convertible with top safety pick from IIHS.
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    37. #70
      Junior Member Catfiend's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Almaz View Post
      Indeed MB interiors are classy and tasteful. You do feel like you're in a luxury car. Volvo is not there yet. I'd put my money on a CPO Mercedes rather than a Volvo.

      Sent from my ASUS_Z017DA using Tapatalk
      Different strokes. I test drove the GLC back to back with the XC60 and prefer the XC60's interior. The Mercedes was overly busy and I felt the Volvo's interior was more tasteful. But the GLC was a really nice car!
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