Car and Driver S60 in comparison test
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    1. #1
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      Car and Driver S60 in comparison test

      I'll be the guy to post it ha https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...020-volvo-s60/

      As soon as I read the title I knew the S60 came in last. Not quite sure I follow their logic "we're glad that it didn't have the sport chassis that we quite enjoyed" and then go on to ding it becuase "it isn't what we were looking for" compared to sport pkg everything else, but I guess I will keep on "quite enjoying" sport chassis myself heh.

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    3. #2
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      It was a given that BMW would come in first and Volvo last, despite the statements in the reviews that don't actually support these rankings. IMO, the fact that Car and Driver even included the S60 in this comparison shows how far Volvo has come.


      I'll also keep on enjoying the sport chassis

    4. #3
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      I mean, it has FWD compared to all the other cars that have RWD. Of course it's going to be a significant disadvantage when looking at traditional performance / sport sedan metrics.

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    6. #4
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      That's a weird comparison. Alfa and Genesis benchmarked the 3-Series when developing those cars (with specific RWD chassis). And the BMW is outfitted with performance options, including brakes and a diff (I wonder how the Polestar tune and sports chassis would've changed the S60's results).

      From the article on BMW's options:
      "The $5000 M Sport package (including variable-ratio steering), the $2450 Track Handling package (upgraded brakes, adaptive dampers, and a limited-slip differential)"

      Article on the Volvo:
      "The transmission is eager to upshift but less so to drop down a gear. And getting caught too low in the rev range exposes the engineís laggy nature." <-- Pretty sure a Polestar tune would've addressed this complaint on the powertrain.

      Some advice to Volvo's PR department: Learn from BMW, and spec out your press fleet for specific comparisons. Don't just generically order press cars, have a strategy with your press fleet. Have a couple of S60's spec'd out with mainly performance options for these types of sport sedan comparisons. Don't loan out the performance optioned S60's to Home & Garden magazine, keep those for C&D and other sport sedan comparisons.
      Last edited by AJS1KR; 01-24-2020 at 05:02 PM.

    7. #5
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      Yeah this was strange. Might be a stretch to low option T6 R-Design from the sticker on that Momentum, but the way they drive over there the $200 Sport Chassis is a no-brainer against $7500 worth of sport BMW!

    8. #6
      lololol lost to a HYUNDAI. The Chinese HQ must be pissed after reading it this morning. Thankfully they're all hiding at home from coronavirus during CNY.

      Srsly though, S60 is going to be killed before the my SPA's warranty ends. No one's buying it.

    9. #7
      Junior Member Catfiend's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by tonyc View Post
      Srsly though, S60 is going to be killed before the my SPA's warranty ends. No one's buying it.
      I wonder what the S60L is? Do they make a stretched version for some markets? Between the two of them they sold upward of 40,000 units last year so not that bad. Sure the SUVs are selling more, but between the S60 and S90 they sold almost as many units as they did the XC90 last year, so not that shabby.


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    10. #8
      Quote Originally Posted by Catfiend View Post
      I wonder what the S60L is? Do they make a stretched version for some markets?
      I believe that's a China-only plug-in S60 stretched wheel base. 40K cars is nothing for a car build & sold in China though. Kill it, kill it

    11. #9
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      If they wanted to be fair they couldíve had a t6 r design with polestar & sport chassis under $55k which is the cost of the bmw & a g70 with the 3.3 v6 also around the same price, then we wouldíve seen different results, my s60 with these specs drives wonderfully


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    12. #10
      Junior Member genesmasher's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by tonyc View Post
      lololol lost to a HYUNDAI. The Chinese HQ must be pissed after reading it this morning. Thankfully they're all hiding at home from coronavirus during CNY.

      Srsly though, S60 is going to be killed before the my SPA's warranty ends. No one's buying it.
      Interesting attitude for someone who apparently posts a lot on Volvo specific forum. It would be a shame if Volvo killed S60 - it's an excellent sedan choice for most people (that don't drive everyday like these journalists). I'm just hoping that Volvo listens to some of the real-world complaints - most of them are easy to address. And come out with more attractive colors for God's sake!
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    13. #11
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      Quote Originally Posted by Catfiend View Post
      I wonder what the S60L is? Do they make a stretched version for some markets? Between the two of them they sold upward of 40,000 units last year so not that bad. Sure the SUVs are selling more, but between the S60 and S90 they sold almost as many units as they did the XC90 last year, so not that shabby.


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      Many European brands make a "L", or extended wheelbase version of their small and mid-size sedans for the Chinese market. Lookup Audi A6L, etc. The new BMW 330 is available in a "Li" version for china, with a +11cm longer wheel base.

      The Volvo S60 will do fine, and won't be canceled (lol). Look at the 10 year sales history below. 2019 is on part with 2016, and improved over 2017 and 2018. Cars are canceled based on weak sales numbers, not magazine reviews.

      Year S60 Sales Volume
      2019 20190
      2018 11876
      2017 16825
      2016 20913
      2015 24128
      2014 25447
      2013 23210
      2012 23356
      2011 21282
      2010 1437
      2009 5895
      Last edited by AJS1KR; 01-24-2020 at 07:06 PM.

    14. #12
      Senior Member Wayne T5's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Catfiend View Post
      I wonder what the S60L is? Do they make a stretched version for some markets? Between the two of them they sold upward of 40,000 units last year so not that bad. Sure the SUVs are selling more, but between the S60 and S90 they sold almost as many units as they did the XC90 last year, so not that shabby.


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      It was sold in the US as the S60 Inscription - it's 3 inches longer than the regular S60.
      Past: '94 854, '99 S70 T5 SE, '99 S70 GLT, '04 S60R M, '12 S60 T5, '13 S60 T5, '15 S60 RD, '05 V70R GT
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    15. #13
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      Funny thing is they actually really liked the S60 and flat out said as much, it was the most pleasant car to simply drive distance in the whole test. As a "sports" sedan of course it pales in comparison to the others but I will hold fast if they are testing this as what's the best true daily driver for a regular person the Volvo is right up there with the best.

      And you know what? That's okay! I didn't buy my S60 as a sports car, I bought it to drive my butt to work and back
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    16. #14
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      Why do you classify the S60 as a sport sedan? Nothing about is sport it just a sedan.

      Not good or bad, I like the car and if not for liking the wagon more I would get one with the T8. drive.

      But itís just a standard sedan, Audi S4 is a sports sedan, CTS V was a sports sedan,
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    17. #15
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      When I saw the article I knew the S60 wouldnít do well. The other three sedans are much more driver focused. I had a Ď19 S60 T6 Momentum for almost a week as a loaner when my dealership was fixing a center armrest issue with my XC40. I liked the car, it was comfortable and handled ok, but didnít feel tossable on backroads. I would love it on a drive from CT to FL. I had a Ď20 S60 T5 Momentum last week as a loaner for a service appointment and I thought it was a little better on the backroads on my way home. I wondered if the added weight of the AWD was the reason for the difference.

      Iíve thought that a V60 RDesign might get me out of my GTI daily driver and have been looking for a S60 RD with the sport chassis on the dealer lot to give it a drive and see how much difference it makes. Itís bigger so Iíll lose so of the tossability, but Iíve been driving GTIs for over twenty years and the V60 is the first vehicle that might get me to change.
      My brideís - 2019 XC40 (July 2019 OSD), Momentum Mine - 2013 VW GTI Drivers Edition and 1996 VW GTI VR6 (bought new and still love it) Ours - 2008 Jeep GC Limited with a Hemi.

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      Quote Originally Posted by Avboden View Post
      Funny thing is they actually really liked the S60 and flat out said as much, it was the most pleasant car to simply drive distance in the whole test. As a "sports" sedan of course it pales in comparison to the others but I will hold fast if they are testing this as what's the best true daily driver for a regular person the Volvo is right up there with the best.
      It's nice that Volvo offers the bandwidth of comfortable or sporty with a simple $200 option. Although I wouldn't be interested without the sport chassis, what I like to see is where a mfr makes a car that is not pretending to have any "sport" they resist the urge to please journalists preference at the expense of owners. Sounds like the standard setup is a real nice ride.

      Quote Originally Posted by Kamil View Post
      Why do you classify the S60 as a sport sedan? Nothing about is sport it just a sedan...But itís just a standard sedan, Audi S4 is a sports sedan, CTS V was a sports sedan
      Just semantics, you're making up your own definition, others make up theirs. Call it what you like, but in general when you step up from a mainstream sedan to this entry-level premium whatever-we-call-it class you go down in size and up in driving dynamics. Some are just putting a term on that. I checked out the Accord "sport" and while the 2.0T drivetrain is fantastic the driving dynamics don't come close to the S60 or the A4, et al. Lines get blurred when you try to categorize stuff. I've driven my buds B8 S4 quite a bit and engine wise it's awesome (APR tune). Suspension wise, it drives well but it's softly spring and kinda floppy. I prefer the more aggressive tuning of the S60 sport chassis.

      Quote Originally Posted by GTIGuy View Post
      Iíve thought that a V60 RDesign might get me out of my GTI daily driver and have been looking for a S60 RD with the sport chassis on the dealer lot to give it a drive and see how much difference it makes. Itís bigger so Iíll lose so of the tossability, but Iíve been driving GTIs for over twenty years and the V60 is the first vehicle that might get me to change.
      You gotta drive the sport chassis! I compared the S60 to the GTI. It cost the same to lease either a $50k Volvo or a $32k GTI. The GTI is a GTI, so good at what it does. I was comparing to the T6 with AWD, the GTI on all seasons is just so hard on those front tires and that's where it was let down. Summer tires would probably solve that but the S60 was a better handler on all seasons. Modern suspension design is good at hiding weight it doesn't detract from the driving experience too much. The biggest loss for me was no stick ;-) I'd be in a V60 if the real world price difference was not $10k.

    19. #17
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      The S60 is really not trying to compete with these cars in outright performance. I find it to be a better luxury car with a very comfortable driving experience. A T6 R-design with sports chassis would have been much better for this comparison, but I think the FWD platform would have still held it back. You are really only going to notice these performance advantages when driving on a track or a curvy secluded road--something most of us will rarely or never do.
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    20. #18
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      You really need the T6 AWD to compete in this given comparo. The thing is, it's easily in the price range of the comparison! I can see the difficulty of here of what Volvo has done, bringing a product set that is "in between" the competitors, it causes a lot of problems with the media when they do a "comparison test". The T6 does not compete objectively with the 340i for example. But you can spec a T5 or a T6 out in the price range of a 330i...so you have two products which one would be the appropriate substitute? Real life is in between, some will save a bunch of money with a lower spec T5, some will pop for the T6.

      Disagree about the "performance advantages" I don't buy a car for the objective performance. I buy for how it makes me feel, the enjoyment of the product if you will. That gives the most satisfaction to me over my time with a car. The value of the T6, AWD and sport chassis is in how it feels, the tautness, response etc. I enjoy it every single drive. It's just something that I like, I don't get enjoyment out of a smooth ride. All within the bounds of reason for a practical street car of course, I'm not a masochist or anything lol.

    21. #19
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      The real problem is... Volvo did not even spec this car and provide it for this test. I am an avid C&D reader, and quickly noticed exactly what was going on here. Basically, they set the Volvo and Genesis up to fail.

      About two weeks ago, C&D did a comparison test of two low-spec entry level luxury sports sedans; i.e. the S60 and G70 you see in this 4-car comparison posted above. They chose both "newcomers" who they believed to be the best bang for your buck. First off, this is an accomplishment in itself for the S60 and us car guys. It gets the word out there that these cars are good enough to even be pulled into comparisons like this. This is the article: https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...020-volvo-s60/


      The issue is that a week before this, they also posted another review... A comparison of the Giulia and new 3-Series. This was to battle the "kings" of sports sedans under $60K. Not very shockingly, these cars were both spec'd out to the gills to match eachother, while utilizing the entry level engine. This is the article: https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...-romeo-giulia/ The Giulia and 330 both had every single performance option you can order.

      Basically, they probably took all 4 cars and thought to themselves "well they are all already here, lets get three written reviews out of them."

      Take the absolute best performing car in it's class (Giulia), add all the options you can to turn it into a glorified track car, have BMW mimic the order sheet on the 330 provided, and then throw it against a T5 momentum and G70 2.0T, both of which are the entry level trims which were used for a comparison of "the cheap ones", and compare all 4. What did they think would happen, and how did they think it would be fair... LOL

      If this test was done properly, the S60 would have first been an R-Design with the Sports Chassis. If they were really going to go for a T5, they should have at least gotten the Polestar Engineered tune. Though, I honestly think a T6 would have been more fair price wise, and would have been a price-to-power advantage which could have been mentioned in the article. Same goes for the G70.


      Yes, it was a completely unfair review, but even reading it and taking into consideration that the S60 was there in the first place, its evident C&D loves the S60. Hell, they even seem to be the minority in the fact that they love the P* Engineered s/v/xc60's. I am sure it won't be the last time we see newer Volvo's in C&D battles, I just hope they are purposefully requested models that can fairly go head to head.

    22. #20
      Junior Member R-Design M&M's Avatar
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      Some biases at C&D never change....same thing I saw when I used to subscribe in the 80's.
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      Quote Originally Posted by GTIGuy View Post
      I had a Ď20 S60 T5 Momentum last week as a loaner for a service appointment .
      OT but what dealer gives service loaners? I'm in Westchester and the ONE remaining dealer doesn't even return phone calls to make service appointments.

    24. #22
      Junior Member volvoxc9008's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by tonyc View Post
      lololol lost to a HYUNDAI. The Chinese HQ must be pissed after reading it this morning. Thankfully they're all hiding at home from coronavirus during CNY.

      Srsly though, S60 is going to be killed before the my SPA's warranty ends. No one's buying it.
      Volvo sold 17k S60's in 2019, whereas Genesis sold 21k G70's. The G70 is closer to being discontinued...

    25. #23
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      I doubt they would ever win a sports sedan comparison test, because Volvos are not meant to be sports sedans. And I'm fine with that. I love my R-Design, but I think what I love most about it is that it doesn't sacrifice comfort for "sport". It is quick, beautiful, and drives really nice.

      The fact is that Volvo will never beat BMW in this regard, and will never beat Alfa Romeo in this regard.

      I dispute that the G70 is in any way shape or form better than the S60 though.
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    26. #24
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      Quote Originally Posted by mzcool View Post
      I doubt they would ever win a sports sedan comparison test, because Volvos are not meant to be sports sedans. And I'm fine with that. I love my R-Design, but I think what I love most about it is that it doesn't sacrifice comfort for "sport". It is quick, beautiful, and drives really nice.

      The fact is that Volvo will never beat BMW in this regard, and will never beat Alfa Romeo in this regard.

      I dispute that the G70 is in any way shape or form better than the S60 though.
      I mean, the base G70 is RWD while the S60 is FWD. If you bring the T6 AWD into the conversation, then you might as well bring in the G70 3.3T in to be fair. Like it or not, the G70 is more dynamic and a better performance car.
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    27. #25
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      Quote Originally Posted by fiatlux View Post
      I mean, the base G70 is RWD while the S60 is FWD. If you bring the T6 AWD into the conversation, then you might as well bring in the G70 3.3T in to be fair. Like it or not, the G70 is more dynamic and a better performance car.
      I was coming out of a Genesis G80 lease in May 2019 and wanted to downsize so I was looking at G70s since I'd been happy with the G80. Genesis had huge problems in 2019 establishing a dealer network in CA (mostly licensing issues) but had just worked that out and inventory was starting to flood the market. I was hoping to find a good deal figuring they would want to get the new G70 seen on the road. However the car was expensive to lease mostly because of lousy residual values from Hyundai Finance.

      The 3.3t is seriously fast and fun to drive, however it feels much smaller inside and the backseat room is close to non-existent. I'm 6'4" and felt kind of crammed in. Trunk is also much smaller than the S60. I ended up leasing my S60 for >$100 less than the best deal I found on a G70. The MSRP on the G70 was ~$3k less than the comparably equipped S60 (G70 [email protected]$50k vs S60 T6 [email protected]$53k). Once I'd "discovered" the S60 I preferred to to the G70 anyway but the huge lease payment differential made it easy.
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    28. #26
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      Quote Originally Posted by MJEWETT View Post
      The real problem is... Volvo did not even spec this car and provide it for this test...
      I think you are right there, they probably did not even drive the cars at the same time. Well maybe...was there a picture of them all together...

      I guess it's the reality of print and sort-of-web Car Magazines now. They have to make do with less they don't command the readership the way they used to. I remember when the Boston Globe had an automotive writer! C&D's site is a bit more of a sales funnel and less journalism every day.

    29. #27
      Junior Member rudsaki's Avatar
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      Wow, what happened in 2010?

      Quote Originally Posted by AJS1KR View Post

      Year S60 Sales Volume
      2019 20190
      2018 11876
      2017 16825
      2016 20913
      2015 24128
      2014 25447
      2013 23210
      2012 23356
      2011 21282
      2010 1437
      2009 5895
      2005 S60 AWD Platinum Green (449)
      2004 S60 AWD Mystic silver metallic (426)
      1970 Ford F250 Camper Special with a 460

    30. #28
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      Quote Originally Posted by rudsaki View Post
      Wow, what happened in 2010?
      I'm not sure, but if I were to guess, I'd say the Ford sale of Volvo to Geely (happened in 2010), supply, and effects of the 2009 financial crisis.

      I wonder if Jaguar & Land Rover had a similar sales dip in 2010 (Ford sold them to Tata of India).

    31. #29
      Senior Member Wayne T5's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by rudsaki View Post
      Wow, what happened in 2010?
      2010 was sort of in between P2 and P3 generations so the last P2's were being sold and the first P3's were just being produced. There was no 2010 S60, at least not in the US, probably not anywhere.
      Past: '94 854, '99 S70 T5 SE, '99 S70 GLT, '04 S60R M, '12 S60 T5, '13 S60 T5, '15 S60 RD, '05 V70R GT
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    32. #30
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      Quote Originally Posted by tonyc View Post
      lololol lost to a HYUNDAI. The Chinese HQ must be pissed after reading it this morning. Thankfully they're all hiding at home from coronavirus during CNY.

      Srsly though, S60 is going to be killed before the my SPA's warranty ends. No one's buying it.
      Hyundai is not the same company people used to snicker at.
      5 years ago they threw the hammer down. They raided Audi for design talent - then poached BMW's former M Division head to head-up their N Sport and performance tuning division.
      Expect more very noteworthy products from Hyundai / Kia / Genesis over the next half decade from a styling and performance perspective.

      If I were Nissan, Honda and Mazda, I would be looking over my shoulder.
      And for a luxury producer like Volvo who has recently strengthening but still low sales, I would be concerned too about the Genesis marque and Kia. The Telluride is very much in design a longer XC90 with a different front end. Once Hyundai figures out their electrification and hybrid technologies, things are going to get very interesting for everyone.

      The secret about Hyundai that many don't know - they are one of the only car manufacturers that have their own foundry and make their own steel and aluminium! That's the largest raw materials cost in any vehicle and with that, they can tightly control their input costs and what cost they want to sell their cars at into the dealer network.
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    33. #31
      Junior Member Catfiend's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by ShadowDancer View Post
      Hyundai is not the same company people used to snicker at.
      5 years ago they threw the hammer down. They raided Audi for design talent - then poached BMW's former M Division head to head-up their N Sport and performance tuning division.
      Expect more very noteworthy products from Hyundai / Kia / Genesis over the next half decade from a styling and performance perspective.

      If I were Nissan, Honda and Mazda, I would be looking over my shoulder.
      And for a luxury producer like Volvo who has recently strengthening but still low sales, I would be concerned too about the Genesis marque and Kia. The Telluride is very much in design a longer XC90 with a different front end. Once Hyundai figures out their electrification and hybrid technologies, things are going to get very interesting for everyone.

      The secret about Hyundai that many don't know - they are one of the only car manufacturers that have their own foundry and make their own steel and aluminium! That's the largest raw materials cost in any vehicle and with that, they can tightly control their input costs and what cost they want to sell their cars at into the dealer network.
      Agreed. The Genesis line looks very nice and they're backing it up with a good, long warranty period. The problem they'll have to deal with in part is customer perceptions - much as Volvo is thought of as boxes on wheels, Hyundai and Kia are thought of as cut-rate quality, even though they are making big changes.

      Interesting note about the foundry. I wonder where they get there raw materials. I do know that my previous employer paid extra to buy Korean steel over U.S. steel because tolerances were consistently better, at least that was the case maybe 15 years ago.
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    34. #32
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      Quote Originally Posted by Catfiend View Post
      Agreed. The Genesis line looks very nice and they're backing it up with a good, long warranty period. The problem they'll have to deal with in part is customer perceptions - much as Volvo is thought of as boxes on wheels, Hyundai and Kia are thought of as cut-rate quality, even though they are making big changes.

      Interesting note about the foundry. I wonder where they get there raw materials. I do know that my previous employer paid extra to buy Korean steel over U.S. steel because tolerances were consistently better, at least that was the case maybe 15 years ago.
      Hyundai's steel producing capacity is immense. And it's not just low grade steel either - they have the ability to mass produce specialty and high grade steels (so long as they're not under patent)
      As for raw materials, I would imagine a mixture of indigenous sources and imports from China.

      If North Korea and South Korea even form a lasting economic bi-lateral agreement that globally accepts NK base material product into SK steel, or even better the countries re-align, Korean steel prices are going to put a crater in the steel market and squeeze China.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyundai_Steel
      2009 XC90 3.2 AWD l Oyster Grey / Bi-Xenon / Dynaudio / BLIS / VNS / RSE / THULE Aeroblade

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