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    1. #1
      Junior Member russ399's Avatar
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      C&D 40k mile review

      https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...y-maintenance/

      Lots of nice things said and no major complaints about the Chinese built XC60 RD except the Sensus interface.
      Her HHI car - 2010 C70 T5 Ice White w/ off-black interior
      His - 2015.5 XC60 Bright Silver, T6 Platinum w/ off-black interior now with Polestar!
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    3. #2
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      Haha, I actually sought out my XC60 since it was built in China. The line speed at the Chengdu, China factory runs at a much slower pace than many NAFTA and EU (but not England!) plants.

      Having humans involved may seem like a bad thing at first blush, but robots don't make vehicles better quality. Robots enable faster manufacturing with consistency even if the shift is staffed by unskilled (or sometimes drunk) workers. But I'll take a well-trained and engaged human every time to achieve tight tolerances on a car.

      GM used to take their initial factory assembled cars and have people re-assemble major portions by hand before handing the cars off to Bob Lutz and the Execs for their review. Of course the execs thought GM's cars were "perfect" since even the Chevy's had super-tight tolerances. What they didn't care to acknowledge was a human had aligned the panel gaps; centered the cross-car beam; torqued everything to spec; and eliminated anything that could remotely rattle. Same thing was happening at Chrysler and Ford back then as well. These execs could have requested a random VIN from the factory floor, but it was too easy to come up with excuses on why "random" would cause problems. So the product team always got to pick which vehicle the execs saw.

      The engineering, component supply chain, and assembly sequencing is the secret sauce that allows either robots or people to assemble a car.

      Edit: I don't mean to say the Chinese-Made XC60 is 100% hand made... I just mean it has many more people involved versus robots. You'll have robots to do dangerous work like welding, painting, stamping, etc. I'm talking about the fit and finish roles during assembly. Here's a great article if you know anyone that has any doubts about a "Made in China" Volvo. https://dailykanban.com/2017/12/go-p...uction-heaven/ I admit the writer is a bit biased against USA automakers dating all the way back to when he wrote for The Truth about Cars. But there's no mistaking that a line speed of ~30 cars per hour is going to have better output than when GM and Ford were gunning for that 100 cars per hour mark.
      Last edited by Holeydonut; 02-13-2020 at 05:59 PM.

    4. #3
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      Quote Originally Posted by Holeydonut View Post
      Haha, I actually sought out my XC60 since it was built in China. The line speed at the Chengdu, China factory runs at a much slower pace than many NAFTA and EU (but not England!) plants.

      Having humans involved may seem like a bad thing at first blush, but robots don't make vehicles better quality. Robots enable faster manufacturing with consistency even if the shift is staffed by unskilled (or sometimes drunk) workers. But I'll take a well-trained and engaged human every time to achieve tight tolerances on a car.

      GM used to take their initial factory assembled cars and have people re-assemble major portions by hand before handing the cars off to Bob Lutz and the Execs for their review. Of course the execs thought GM's cars were "perfect" since even the Chevy's had super-tight tolerances. What they didn't care to acknowledge was a human had aligned the panel gaps; centered the cross-car beam; torqued everything to spec; and eliminated anything that could remotely rattle. Same thing was happening at Chrysler and Ford back then as well. These execs could have requested a random VIN from the factory floor, but it was too easy to come up with excuses on why "random" would cause problems. So the product team always got to pick which vehicle the execs saw.

      The engineering, component supply chain, and assembly sequencing is the secret sauce that allows either robots or people to assemble a car.

      Edit: I don't mean to say the Chinese-Made XC60 is 100% hand made... I just mean it has many more people involved versus robots. You'll have robots to do dangerous work like welding, painting, stamping, etc. I'm talking about the fit and finish roles during assembly. Here's a great article if you know anyone that has any doubts about a "Made in China" Volvo. https://dailykanban.com/2017/12/go-p...uction-heaven/ I admit the writer is a bit biased against USA automakers dating all the way back to when he wrote for The Truth about Cars. But there's no mistaking that a line speed of ~30 cars per hour is going to have better output than when GM and Ford were gunning for that 100 cars per hour mark.
      The US gets the XC60 built in Sweden, not China (after the first few months of 2018). That is courtesy of tariffs.
      2019 XC60 T6 Inscription Pine Gray Ext/Maroon (brown) Int

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    6. #4
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      My model-year 2019 was built in China... where's that dance-emoji when you need it?

    7. #5
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      Sorry, I meant first few months of 2019. It was built in China in 2018, and for a VERY short period in 2019. I think it was only a month or two before they switched permenantly. Volvo started importing the XC60 from Sweden at that point because of Trump's tariffs. I'm pretty sure they're still being imported from Sweden now.

      That change had been announced my Volvo in the Fall of 2018, right before you likely took delivery of your vehicle. I'm not sure, in fact, that any XC60s built in calendar year 2019 cane to the states.

      https://www.latimes.com/business/la-...112-story.html

      It's somewhat irrelevant in that (according to the window sticker on my 2019 built-in-Sweden) 45% of the parts are Chinese.

      Anyway, the differences in manufacturing which you suggest occur in China (which, incidentally, I seriously doubt are true) are irrelevant as the XC60 stopped being imported from China shortly after the first SPA year.

      When you find that dancing emoji, let us know. No doubt it's in a SENSUS submenu.
      Last edited by Walkabout; 02-14-2020 at 12:13 AM.
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    8. #6
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      Quote Originally Posted by russ399 View Post
      https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...y-maintenance/

      Lots of nice things said and no major complaints about the Chinese built XC60 RD except the Sensus interface.
      I think that had a lot of complaints although it was a fair review. They knocked the ride quality and described the handling as mediocre.

      All that seems pretty aacurate to me.
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    9. #7
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      Quote Originally Posted by Walkabout View Post
      Sorry, I meant first few months of 2019. It was built in China in 2018, and for a VERY short period in 2019. I think it was only a month or two before they switched permenantly. Volvo started importing the XC60 from Sweden at that point because of Trump's tariffs. I'm pretty sure they're still being imported from Sweden now.

      That change had been announced my Volvo in the Fall of 2018, right before you likely took delivery of your vehicle. I'm not sure, in fact, that any XC60s built in calendar year 2019 cane to the states.

      https://www.latimes.com/business/la-...112-story.html

      It's somewhat irrelevant in that (according to the window sticker on my 2019 built-in-Sweden) 45% of the parts are Chinese.

      Anyway, the differences in manufacturing which you suggest occur in China (which, incidentally, I seriously doubt are true) are irrelevant as the XC60 stopped being imported from China shortly after the first SPA year.

      When you find that dancing emoji, let us know. No doubt it's in a SENSUS submenu.


      There are forum readers and buyers on this site who live outside of the United States of America... and many of them could be feeling a level of unconscious (or conscious) bias against the "Made in China" moniker. Changing a conscious bias only happens over generations. But I think some readers here may have a misinformed unconscious belief that Chinese made goods are sub-par. This type of bias could be swayed in this lifetime if buyers were properly informed about how their notions could be misguided.

      I actually took delivery of my 2019 model year Volvo XC60 4 weeks ago. The dealer was doing a firesale on the car since they were having trouble moving a Chinese manufactured good out of their sales lot when a similar product with less Chinese influence was right next to it. The sales guy later admitted they just had someone literally back out of buying my car in order to pay an extra $12,000 on an identically equipped 2020 MY configuration (same color too)... just because the 2020 wasn't made in China.

      So what do you "seriously doubt" about Chinese manufacturing?

      Do you doubt that Chinese manufacturing could have a quality differential that is actually better than the West?
      Do you doubt the Volvo/Geely factories are running line speeds in the thirties thus having much fewer incidents of injury compared to North American sites or the Tesla Fremont, CA assembly plant?
      Do you doubt that a Chinese worker is as capable as an EU or NAFTA worker?
      Do you doubt the press and media that offers praise for a Chinese product or lauds their processes?

      I spent way too much time working in automobile industry to the extent I really started to dislike cars haha. But one thing I will forever respect is how challenging it is to bring to life something this complicated for millions to use. It's amazing how much effort it takes the automaker to make those millions of consumers feel that making the car was "easy". I've been in assembly plants where workers were clearly drunk and high but still able to do a "within specifications" level of work to assemble a car. The fact that a well orchestrated manufacturing process can still operate with that low of a bar is amazing.

      Geely hit a home run buying Volvo from Ford because this allowed Geely to learn the knowledge stored in Volvo's vast corporate life experience. We are all taking advantage of a massive government bank-rolling the heightened R&D, manufacturing and sales channel costs to make Volvo what it is today.

      If you have time to kill, take a read at these articles...
      https://www.mlive.com/news/detroit/2...sed_smoki.html
      https://www.media.volvocars.com/fr/f...anufacturing-s
      https://www.ehstoday.com/safety/arti...at-every-speed
      https://qz.com/1510405/gms-layoffs-c...into-machines/
      https://www.sgcarmart.com/news/article.php?AID=20483

      Tesla brags that they want to push 500,000 units a year out of Freemont, CA. Do the math, and estimate the pace required to accomplish this while running 3 shifts with minimal service time and only a brief annual line refresh. 500,000 a year out of one facility is approaching 100 cars an hour. I see immense value in Volvo's more methodical and manual-labor-intensive pace of 30. I can't prove that the Chinese worker isn't high or drunk though. I guess I just have to rely on my biases.
      Last edited by Holeydonut; 02-14-2020 at 02:12 PM.

    10. #8
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      Quote Originally Posted by Walkabout View Post
      I think that had a lot of complaints although it was a fair review. They knocked the ride quality and described the handling as mediocre.

      All that seems pretty aacurate to me.
      Not trying to start and e-fight (not my style), but reading the article I don't think they called the handling mediocre? I've owned sports cars which can hold 1G+ cornering, and the XC60 doesn't "quite" do that but I found it to be pretty capable on the curves so far, even with the 19" rims. It would help to find out what the reviewer's (or others') point of reference is. I have no doubt some other competitor's cars out there can handle better, but I personally wouldn't translate that to the XC60 having bad handling, much less mediocre.

      Just my 2 cents

      Geoff

      P.S.: We really wanted the color combo you got! But we had to settle on Denim Blue/Maroon due to a temporary screw up on Volvo's part... At some point, their ordering guide stated that Pine Grey and Maroon was no longer a supported combo, which seemed insane since they seemed made for each other! But I believe they rectified this a few weeks later. Oh well...

    11. #9
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      Geoff - It's slightly off-topic but the color combo you have is EXACTLY what I wanted. I "settled" for the pine gray because I couldn't get denim blue in time for the COSTCO deal. I do like the pine gray, but I think denim blue would have been a favored one for me. I bet your car is just beautiful.

      As for the XC60's handling and ride - essentially every outside source (including MT) has knocked the ride as being stiff. Edmunds, Consumer Reports, R & T, C & D all view it that way. The handling is a different story - it is not "Bad" by any stretch. Its also not "sport" by any stretch and a few degrees below X3 and Q5. So, yeah, I'd call that mediocre.

      To me, the XC60 is less about dynamic prowess and more about balance (which is what MT concludes): great seats, excellent visibility, good practicality, decent infotainment, response power trains.
      2019 XC60 T6 Inscription Pine Gray Ext/Maroon (brown) Int

    12. #10
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      Quote Originally Posted by Holeydonut View Post
      There are forum readers and buyers on this site who live outside of the United States of America... and many of them could be feeling a level of unconscious (or conscious) bias against the "Made in China" moniker. Changing a conscious bias only happens over generations. But I think some readers here may have a misinformed unconscious belief that Chinese made goods are sub-par. This type of bias could be swayed in this lifetime if buyers were properly informed about how their notions could be misguided.

      I actually took delivery of my 2019 model year Volvo XC60 4 weeks ago. The dealer was doing a firesale on the car since they were having trouble moving a Chinese manufactured good out of their sales lot when a similar product with less Chinese influence was right next to it. The sales guy later admitted they just had someone literally back out of buying my car in order to pay an extra $12,000 on an identically equipped 2020 MY configuration (same color too)... just because the 2020 wasn't made in China.

      So what do you "seriously doubt" about Chinese manufacturing?

      Do you doubt that Chinese manufacturing could have a quality differential that is actually better than the West?
      Do you doubt the Volvo/Geely factories are running line speeds in the thirties thus having much fewer incidents of injury compared to North American sites or the Tesla Fremont, CA assembly plant?
      Do you doubt that a Chinese worker is as capable as an EU or NAFTA worker?
      Do you doubt the press and media that offers praise for a Chinese product or lauds their processes?

      I spent way too much time working in automobile industry to the extent I really started to dislike cars haha. But one thing I will forever respect is how challenging it is to bring to life something this complicated for millions to use. It's amazing how much effort it takes the automaker to make those millions of consumers feel that making the car was "easy". I've been in assembly plants where workers were clearly drunk and high but still able to do a "within specifications" level of work to assemble a car. The fact that a well orchestrated manufacturing process can still operate with that low of a bar is amazing.

      Geely hit a home run buying Volvo from Ford because this allowed Geely to learn the knowledge stored in Volvo's vast corporate life experience. We are all taking advantage of a massive government bank-rolling the heightened R&D, manufacturing and sales channel costs to make Volvo what it is today.

      If you have time to kill, take a read at these articles...
      https://www.mlive.com/news/detroit/2...sed_smoki.html
      https://www.media.volvocars.com/fr/f...anufacturing-s
      https://www.ehstoday.com/safety/arti...at-every-speed
      https://qz.com/1510405/gms-layoffs-c...into-machines/
      https://www.sgcarmart.com/news/article.php?AID=20483

      Tesla brags that they want to push 500,000 units a year out of Freemont, CA. Do the math, and estimate the pace required to accomplish this while running 3 shifts with minimal service time and only a brief annual line refresh. 500,000 a year out of one facility is approaching 100 cars an hour. I see immense value in Volvo's more methodical and manual-labor-intensive pace of 30. I can't prove that the Chinese worker isn't high or drunk though. I guess I just have to rely on my biases.
      What I seriously doubt about Chinese manufacturing is that it differs in any systematic way from the manufacturing processes in Europe and the States. I think Volvos in China are manufactured in basically the exact same way as Volvos in Sweden, most likely using a lot of the exact same parts (judging by the parts content on the window sticker).

      I think arguing that the manufacturing process is somehow superior in China (as you did in your earlier post) is more than a little bit of a stretch.

      I like my Volvo a lot. I'll likely order another when the lease is up. I won't care whether it is made in Sweden, China, or somewhere else. I don't think the reliability or quality control is different across countries and I've seen no hard evidence to suggest as much. In China, Sweden, or Timbuktu, manufacturers are going to rely on robots as much as possible and they're going to push out as many cars from each assembly line that they can built and sell.

      I don't have much to say about your 2019 being built in China. Volvo pretty much stopped importing into the states from China because it was threatened by a 27% tariff. I don't think color combination had anything to do with it. And, if you look reliability data in Consumer Reports, no evidence that the build location impacted the reliability of XC60s sold in the states - either up or down.

      Country of manufacture is a non-issue.
      Last edited by Walkabout; 02-14-2020 at 02:38 PM.
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      Quote Originally Posted by Walkabout View Post
      Geoff - It's slightly off-topic but the color combo you have is EXACTLY what I wanted. I "settled" for the pine gray because I couldn't get denim blue in time for the COSTCO deal. I do like the pine gray, but I think denim blue would have been a favored one for me. I bet your car is just beautiful.

      As for the XC60's handling and ride - essentially every outside source (including MT) has knocked the ride as being stiff. Edmunds, Consumer Reports, R & T, C & D all view it that way. The handling is a different story - it is not "Bad" by any stretch. Its also not "sport" by any stretch and a few degrees below X3 and Q5. So, yeah, I'd call that mediocre.

      To me, the XC60 is less about dynamic prowess and more about balance (which is what MT concludes): great seats, excellent visibility, good practicality, decent infotainment, response power trains.

      Don't forget safety! Volvo has an internal goal that no occupants of a Volvo will die in a crash in their recent generation of vehicles. It's an admirable pursuit; one that likely comes at the expense of some driving dynamics and UI/UX. I wonder if they'll ever publish their actual results against this goal though... it's literally a morbid metric.

    14. #12
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      Quote Originally Posted by Walkabout View Post
      What I seriously doubt about Chinese manufacturing is that it differs in any systematic way from the manufacturing processes in Europe and the States. I think Volvos in China are manufactured in basically the exact same way as Volvos in Sweden, most likely using a lot of the exact same parts (judging by the parts content on the window sticker).

      I think arguing that the manufacturing process is somehow superior in China (as you did in your earlier post) is more than a little bit of a stretch.

      I like my Volvo a lot. I'll likely order another when the lease is up. I won't care whether it is made in Sweden, China, or somewhere else. I don't think the reliability or quality control is different across countries and I've seen no hard evidence to suggest as much.


      Would you rather believe a Volvo exec who says the China build quality is both better and different than than the other factories?
      https://www.motor1.com/news/241866/c...r-than-europe/

      "Everyone was worried about quality, but as soon as they started the quality was even higher on score than in Europe," Page told Australia's GoAuto. He attributes the major difference to the greater automation in manufacturing at European factories. Using more human labor allegedly allows Chinese plants to achieve tighter tolerances and the ability make changes to the production process more quickly. “It’s not a massive difference but if you do scores-to-scores and averages, China’s pretty damn good, so we’re not so worried about that now," he told GoAuto.

      PS, my favorite manufacturing facility remains the Connor Avenue plant in Detroit. It made the Plymouth Prowler and Dodge Viper (I haven't followed in a while so I don't know what the plant does now). Zero robots, and it's just one long corridor where they can roll cars down from start to finish. You can follow a car from basically being a pile of rubbish into a huge beast. Just an amazing assembly line. I guess the Viper will never win an award for build quality, but it's still my favorite assembly plant haha.
      https://www.allpar.com/cars/viper/conner-avenue.html

    15. #13
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      Quote Originally Posted by Walkabout View Post
      As for the XC60's handling and ride - essentially every outside source (including MT) has knocked the ride as being stiff. Edmunds, Consumer Reports, R & T, C & D all view it that way. The handling is a different story - it is not "Bad" by any stretch. Its also not "sport" by any stretch and a few degrees below X3 and Q5. So, yeah, I'd call that mediocre.
      I've seen the same thing about the ride stiffness, to the point that I start looking for the reference to the air suspension if the don't mention it.

      Handling is a different issue. That one seems to depend on whether the reviewer is looking for a sports car or a luxury car (or both). The ones who are measuring it as a sports oriented vehicle tend to give lower marks. The ones who are measuring it as a capable, luxurious people hauler think the handling is fine - not 'dynamic' but accurate, safe and comfortable.

      If I wanted a sports car I'd get an MX-5



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      Quote Originally Posted by Holeydonut View Post
      Would you rather believe a Volvo exec who says the China build quality is both better and different than than the other factories?
      https://www.motor1.com/news/241866/c...r-than-europe/




      PS, my favorite manufacturing facility remains the Connor Avenue plant in Detroit. It made the Plymouth Prowler and Dodge Viper (I haven't followed in a while so I don't know what the plant does now). Zero robots, and it's just one long corridor where they can roll cars down from start to finish. You can follow a car from basically being a pile of rubbish into a huge beast. Just an amazing assembly line. I guess the Viper will never win an award for build quality, but it's still my favorite assembly plant haha.
      https://www.allpar.com/cars/viper/conner-avenue.html
      Would I believe a Volvo executive who wants to convince me about the build quality of his brand's factories? Of course. Why would a car manufacturer have any reason to try and convince us that the ways his company builds cars are best?
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      Quote Originally Posted by Catfiend View Post
      I've seen the same thing about the ride stiffness, to the point that I start looking for the reference to the air suspension if the don't mention it.

      Handling is a different issue. That one seems to depend on whether the reviewer is looking for a sports car or a luxury car (or both). The ones who are measuring it as a sports oriented vehicle tend to give lower marks. The ones who are measuring it as a capable, luxurious people hauler think the handling is fine - not 'dynamic' but accurate, safe and comfortable.

      If I wanted a sports car I'd get an MX-5



      Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
      The handling of the XC60 is fine. I really haven't seen any source knock it as "bad." I just think its middle of the pack. Its not as sporty as the Q5, X3, or RDX but quite car like and easy to live with.

      The ride to me does feel stiff and unrefined. I'm OK with that, but I think it's a fair criticism.
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      Quote Originally Posted by Walkabout View Post
      Would I believe a Volvo executive who wants to convince me about the build quality of his brand's factories? Of course. Why would a car manufacturer have any reason to try and convince us that the ways his company builds cars are best?
      Ok, so you ...
      won't believe a Volvo rep who will go on the record with statements about the level of automation and measured quality.
      won't believe articles detailing the Chinese factories with photos of the interiors and descriptions of the lower line speeds to focus on quality and safety.

      I think it's safe to say you'll never believe that a Chinese Volvo manufacturing plant is structured differently to the extent it produces better tolerances than the EU and NAFTA counterparts. Even if you flew out there and witnessed the factory doing it's thing.

      Anyway, I just hope other readers on this forum are a bit more open minded that Made in China is actually pretty good if not better than Sweden and North America.
      Last edited by Holeydonut; 02-14-2020 at 03:13 PM.

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      That's right, I won't believe a Volvo rep trying to convince us all about the build quality of Volvos. In fact, there probably isn't a source I have less faith in. Hardly an objective third party source.

      I never said anything about "made in China" being an indicator of poor quality. Not to get testy, but I really don't appreciate you trying to put words in my mouth or trying to portray me as close-minded. What I disputed was your suggestion that somehow cars built in China are better than the Euro equivalents. I think that's just silly and is as bad and biased as those who are down on XC60s that are built in China.

      Look at the reliability data on the 2018 XC60s that were imported into the states from China in Consumer Reports - the XC60 is ranked about mid-pack, on par with BMW and Audi. In other words, its not especially reliable and not especially unreliable. Now, look at the data from 2019 - when the XC60 is largely imported from Sweden. Same exact pattern. There is no difference in reliability, fit or finish, etc.

      There is no empirical support for what you are arguing whatsoever. Regardless of where they are built, XC60s are moderately reliable vehicles with good build quality and few fit and finish issues. China vs. Sweden is irrelevant.

      Your XC60 was built in China. Mine was built in Sweden. I bet that if you put even a sophisticated engineer into both vehicles side-by-side, he/she would not find any differences in quality.
      Last edited by Walkabout; 02-14-2020 at 03:22 PM.
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    20. #18
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      Quote Originally Posted by Walkabout View Post
      The handling of the XC60 is fine. I really haven't seen any source knock it as "bad." I just think its middle of the pack. Its not as sporty as the Q5, X3, or RDX but quite car like and easy to live with.

      The ride to me does feel stiff and unrefined. I'm OK with that, but I think it's a fair criticism.
      All fair

      Geoff

    21. #19
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      Quote Originally Posted by Walkabout View Post
      The US gets the XC60 built in Sweden, not China (after the first few months of 2018). That is courtesy of tariffs.
      From where do they import S90 / V90 for US market ??
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      Quote Originally Posted by Walkabout View Post
      That's right, I won't believe a Volvo rep trying to convince us all about the build quality of Volvos. In fact, there probably isn't a source I have less faith in. Hardly an objective third party source.

      I never said anything about "made in China" being an indicator of poor quality. Not to get testy, but I really don't appreciate you trying to put words in my mouth or trying to portray me as close-minded. What I disputed was your suggestion that somehow cars built in China are better than the Euro equivalents. I think that's just silly and is as bad and biased as those who are down on XC60s that are built in China.

      Look at the reliability data on the 2018 XC60s that were imported into the states from China in Consumer Reports - the XC60 is ranked about mid-pack, on par with BMW and Audi. In other words, its not especially reliable and not especially unreliable. Now, look at the data from 2019 - when the XC60 is largely imported from Sweden. Same exact pattern. There is no difference in reliability, fit or finish, etc.

      There is no empirical support for what you are arguing whatsoever. Regardless of where they are built, XC60s are moderately reliable vehicles with good build quality and few fit and finish issues. China vs. Sweden is irrelevant.

      Your XC60 was built in China. Mine was built in Sweden. I bet that if you put even a sophisticated engineer into both vehicles side-by-side, he/she would not find any differences in quality.


      I'm telling you the Made in China is better, and someone from Volvo will put their name on record saying Chinese built vehicles measure better on their on metrics. but I think you stubbornly cling to the "they're the same" trope because it's unfathomable that a China build could be better.

      You can put real automotive engineers in a room with two cars built in two different factories, and they will measure the differences. There's a reason every automaker employs skilled engineers who earn their living in this field; they can objectively measure assembly tolerances that ultimately add up to a metric of assembly quality. They can measure things like consistent gaps in cutlines, cross-car beam alignment, air pressure leakage when in vacuum, how well situated doors are, component alignment to the chassis, etc. An exec from Volvo goes on the record to say their own internal measurements identified a difference where Made in China was better. Admittedly it's not a massive difference, but the Chinese builds score better on their metrics. And he also goes on to say the less reliance on robots and heavier reliance on trained labor is likely the cause.

      But don't confuse assembly quality with long-term reliability. This is because end assembly quality doesn't really correlate with vehicle reliability found on JD Powers and CR. End assembly is more about fit and finish and whether the alignment of the pieces is in spec. The component engineering design and supply chain are the main drivers of overall reliability. But the most well assembled car is still at the whim of the reliability of the constituent pieces. JD Powers and CR don't ask you if the daylight opening chrome trim is consistently formed around all the doors and windows. They ask if you had to take the car in for service.

    23. #21
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      Quote Originally Posted by Holeydonut View Post
      I'm telling you the Made in China is better, and someone from Volvo will put their name on record saying Chinese built vehicles measure better on their on metrics. but I think you stubbornly cling to the "they're the same" trope because it's unfathomable that a China build could be better. .
      What irks me about your posts is that you keep trying to ascribe some kind of Anti-China built bias to me and I've never hinted, implied, or even remotely suggested that is the case. Its annoying and its almost accusing me of bigotry. I've asked you before to stop inserting words into my mouth and stop attributing arguments to me I never made. If you're going to make up crap that nobody else actually wrote - you might as well open up a word document on your desk and argue with yourself.

      As a general observation, when somebody tries to attribute a stronger amd more biased perspective to you than you actually have, it's a good sign they know their own argument is flawed. And, the only way they can then prove their point is by trying to set you up with a straw man position you never adopted.

      In fact, I don't believe country of origin has any implications whatsoever for build quality and I've made that clear about a half dozen times in this thread alone. XC60s built in Sweden and China are engineered the same, use many of the same parts, and are basically identical. Go to the Volvo dealer and look at the Chinese built vehicles on their lot and the Euro built vehicles - and you'll see the same build quality throughout.

      Its not that I believe vehicles built in China are inferior. I've argued against that perspective consistently. I think country of origin is irrelevant.

      The problem here may be that your own car was built in China and so you want to believe it is built better than other Volvo. And, your only evidence for that is quotes form Volvo reps right after they move a lot of manufacturing to China.

      Gee, do you think they might have any motivation for that spin?

      I've seen you post on this board before and I know you're smart and a good guy. Please stop trying to misrepresent what I am saying though.
      Last edited by Walkabout; 02-14-2020 at 04:08 PM.
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    24. #22
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      Quote Originally Posted by Walkabout View Post
      Gee, do you think they might have any motivation for that spin?

      I've seen you post on this board before and I know you're smart and a good guy. Please stop trying to misrepresent what I am saying though.

      Maybe I'm just taking out my previous-life frustrations with the auto industry out on you. So sorry about that.

      I'm having a hard time differentiating what you're saying with the original premise of the genesis of this thread. C&D made it a point to single out that the XC60 being measured was Made in China. The C&D article then proceeds to assert that their test vehicle was not worse than normal; which implies that the original hypothesis is that "Made in China" would be worse. This notion is the bias that I think I'm associating with your statements that there is no difference.

      Chinese assembly at the Volvo factories benefits from a slower line speed with more skilled work in place of robots. Slower pace and the ability to fine tune assembly during a shift correlates with better assembly quality. This was the case many years ago, and it seems Volvo benefits from it now. Having almost 1mm annual production capacity with this higher level of assembly quality in a competitive industry is a huge accomplishment by Geely+Volvo.

      This particular topic (Made in China) was something that I was surprised to learn many years ago that galvanized American auto execs and product teams. Western leaders thought there was no way the Chinese could ever Best the West in assembly quality. Unfortunately, time and time again, we could see that the moment a Western supply chain, engineering mindset, and design mindset was applied to a Chinese manufacturing force... the end result was better fit and finish than what the West could produce by itself in its own factories. That's the power of cheap and skilled labor.

      If you didn't read that Daily Kanban article, take a pause and read it:
      https://dailykanban.com/2017/12/go-p...uction-heaven/

      I feel bad for the bloke at Daimler Benz who had obtained metrics that Beijing Benz had started assembling cars with tighter tolerances simply because they were taking more time during assembly with fewer robots. If an American car company was already very proud about their builds... imagine what the a German auto exec would think haha.

    25. #23
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      Quote Originally Posted by BigBang View Post
      From where do they import S90 / V90 for US market ??
      S90 is from China. The V90 is from Sweden. I seriously considered an S90, when I purchased my wagon. The wagon won out because that is where the incentives were on the left over 2018 models.
      2018 V90 T5 R Design FWD | Crystal White / Charcoal, Full Napa Leather | 20" R Design Diamond Cut Wheels | Convenience Package | Laminated Glass | Heated Seats/Steering Wheel | Powered Load Cover | Rubber Floor Mats | Integrated Child Safety Seats

      Former Volvos: 2018 V60 Dynamic, 2008 S80 3.2 (first one with adaptive cruise in US), 2006 XC90 V8, 2004 V70ASR, 2003 V70ASR (OSD and replaced by 04 due to tranny problem with valve body), 03 S80 T6 (OSD), 99 V70 and 98 V70 (twins wagons to match our new born twins), 96 850GTA wagon, 93 940 Wagon (Cloth, no sunoof), 92 240 and 90 240 DL.

    26. #24
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      Quote Originally Posted by Holeydonut View Post
      Maybe I'm just taking out my previous-life frustrations with the auto industry out on you. So sorry about that.

      I'm having a hard time differentiating what you're saying with the original premise of the genesis of this thread. C&D made it a point to single out that the XC60 being measured was Made in China. The C&D article then proceeds to assert that their test vehicle was not worse than normal; which implies that the original hypothesis is that "Made in China" would be worse. This notion is the bias that I think I'm associating with your statements that there is no difference.

      Chinese assembly at the Volvo factories benefits from a slower line speed with more skilled work in place of robots. Slower pace and the ability to fine tune assembly during a shift correlates with better assembly quality. This was the case many years ago, and it seems Volvo benefits from it now. Having almost 1mm annual production capacity with this higher level of assembly quality in a competitive industry is a huge accomplishment by Geely+Volvo.

      This particular topic (Made in China) was something that I was surprised to learn many years ago that galvanized American auto execs and product teams. Western leaders thought there was no way the Chinese could ever Best the West in assembly quality. Unfortunately, time and time again, we could see that the moment a Western supply chain, engineering mindset, and design mindset was applied to a Chinese manufacturing force... the end result was better fit and finish than what the West could produce by itself in its own factories. That's the power of cheap and skilled labor.

      If you didn't read that Daily Kanban article, take a pause and read it:
      https://dailykanban.com/2017/12/go-p...uction-heaven/

      I feel bad for the bloke at Daimler Benz who had obtained metrics that Beijing Benz had started assembling cars with tighter tolerances simply because they were taking more time during assembly with fewer robots. If an American car company was already very proud about their builds... imagine what the a German auto exec would think haha.
      That dailykanban article ( a few years old ) is a little cringe-worthy. It pokes fun at Tesla and laughs at the notion of getting a car factory up and running in less than 5 years... andnow here we sit with the Model 3 factory sprung up at lightning speed from ground-breaking to producing the first cars. Oops.
      2012 XC60 R-Design - Passion Red / Off-black/Cream Accents, Platinum, Polestar, & Climate
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      With regard to the ride quality complaints in the C&D review, it should be noted that their XC60 was an R-Design with the sport chassis (the list of options they noted did not include the air suspension). I believe the sport chassis, if it is like our 2012 R-Design, includes firmer springs and dampers. If, also like out 2012, Volvo might have gone too aggressive with the firmness with only modest gains in handling. Indeed, in our case (back in 2012), we had owned that car for a whopping 90 days before I climbed underneath and swapped the rear "sport" shocks and springs out for the base "touring" suspension parts...the mediocre ride wasn't worth the slight handling improvement.
      2012 XC60 R-Design - Passion Red / Off-black/Cream Accents, Platinum, Polestar, & Climate
      2013 Tesla Model S P85+ - Multicoat Red / Black

    28. #26
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      With the spa XC60, I'm not even sure the suspensions are any different. I test drive both cars extensively and saw no difference. The only real difference is might pertain to tires.

      Besides, most of the published tests are with the inscription and they all doing the xc60 on ride quality too.
      2019 XC60 T6 Inscription Pine Gray Ext/Maroon (brown) Int

    29. #27
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      Quote Originally Posted by Walkabout View Post
      With the spa XC60, I'm not even sure the suspensions are any different. I test drive both cars extensively and saw no difference. The only real difference is might pertain to tires.

      Besides, most of the published tests are with the inscription and they all doing the xc60 on ride quality too.
      Of course there is a difference with the suspension, the R-Desing has a slightly stiffer suspension than the Momenum and the Inscription

      Another thing that makes a difference with the suspension is the accessories: sunroof, tow hook ..... Believe it or not the difference can be over 200kg just because of the different equipment
      Because this is all extra weight and there must be different shock absorber and especially springs

      FYI Volvo for XC60 has 20 different front springs and 7 shock absorber front. Unfortunately, on XC60 use leaf springs are rear and 8 different shock absorber


      And that's normal with every car, not only for Volvo. Q5 has different 20 front springs and 12 rear springs

      AND READ THIS:

      https://www.volvocars.com/us/cars/ne...trims/r-design

      For a more energetic, road-hugging drive, the XC60 R-Design comes with an advanced sport chassis, which features stiffer springs and dampers for more responsive handling and less roll when cornering.

      I stayed unpleasantly surprised when I discovered that the Volvo XC60 at the back used leaf springs
      Last edited by BigBang; 02-17-2020 at 08:58 AM.
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    30. #28
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      Quote Originally Posted by BigBang View Post

      I stayed unpleasantly surprised when I discovered that the Volvo XC60 at the back used leaf springs
      You might want to check out this old thread about leaf springs if that is a concern.. https://forums.swedespeed.com/showth...ear-suspension

    31. #29
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      Quote Originally Posted by jacko15 View Post
      You might want to check out this old thread about leaf springs if that is a concern.. https://forums.swedespeed.com/showth...ear-suspension
      Thanks for the info
      Interestingly, the German Patent and none of the German manufacturers Audi, BMW, MB does not use the same product.
      It's weird, isn't it
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    32. #30
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      Quote Originally Posted by cab View Post
      That dailykanban article ( a few years old ) is a little cringe-worthy. It pokes fun at Tesla and laughs at the notion of getting a car factory up and running in less than 5 years... andnow here we sit with the Model 3 factory sprung up at lightning speed from ground-breaking to producing the first cars. Oops.

      Yeah, 5 years from announcement is pretty standard stuff... not really brag worthy. (the article was showing 4 years from breaking ground to Job 1). The hurdles around permits and licensing often take up most of that first year, and EU + North America often have unique hurdles due to their permitting requirements compared to China. Plus, many greenfields in the EU have unexploded ordinance (!) to clear out before any foundation is poured.

      Tesla was able to get their Fremont, CA plant up very quickly for the Model S (it helped that they took over the former NUMMI plant). And their Giga-Nevada plant started making battery packs super fast. Although it was still around 3.75 years from breaking ground until they produced a Model 3 out of that facility (broke ground in June 2014 and made Job 1 Model 3 in early/mid 2018). Those Giga factories are very impressive... but Musk calling them dreadnoughts with annual targets of 500k to 1mm units envokes a rather ominous metaphor.

      It'll be interesting to see how fast Tesla can get Giga-Berlin and Giga-Shanghai up and running for vehicle production. Tesla is doing things with their supply chain that traditional automakers only dream of. So they're definitely revolutionizing the industry.

      Anyway, the point of the article was not to introduce debate around how fast a factory can be propped up. It was to introduce the concept of using slower line speeds and more manual labor as a means to effect assembly quality and safety. When done properly, I have personally seen Chinese end-assembly beating the NA, EU, and JP output in terms of measured quality metrics. And we have (possibly untrustworthy corporate Volvo schills) stating the same observations out of the Volvo/Geely factories in recent years.

      If, we're going to be consistent criticizing Volvo's communications, readers here could also take the position that the transverse leaf spring is a concession piece in the design. German and Japanese automakers have resisted the use of the transverse leaf in rear suspension design for myriad reasons. Maybe it's due to supply chain viability and costs. Maybe it's due to engineering output. Or more likely some combination of many affecting the decision. Volvo reps say the transverse leaf is a great design, but these statements could be examples of puffery and corporate deception.

      Personally, I'd rather just assume positive intent and take their words as truths. It's more likely these are seasoned professionals are willing to make statements they personally believe in because they recognize the "rightness" of their decisions and observations.



      For fun, here are some more possible puff-pieces to read to feel good about both Volvo and Tesla.

      Geely is now China's #1 passenger carmaker... and with Volvo are now the world's 11th largest vehiclemaker.
      http://www.ecns.cn/business/2020-02-...i9822362.shtml

      Teardown of a Tesla Model 3 causes engineers at lesser automakers to panic since they can't replicate Tesla's engineering brilliance and supply chain.
      https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-hard...el-3-teardown/

    33. #31
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      Quote Originally Posted by BigBang View Post
      Thanks for the info
      Interestingly, the German Patent and none of the German manufacturers Audi, BMW, MB does not use the same product.
      It's weird, isn't it


      The Mercedes (and the old Dodge) Sprinter Van has a transverse leaf in the front! That vehicle is the epitome of German performance (sarcasm).


      But in seriousness... my observations on why the transverse leaf is not used in more vehicles has boiled down to the supply chain and costs. Sourcing traditional coil springs and linkages for volume applications is relatively easy and reliable. But implementing a different approach is relatively hard.

      It's not for lack of trying though. ZF (probably the second largest global chassis supplier) went around a few years ago and pitched OEMs on how ZF can provide the sub-assemblies with the transverse leaf using composite materials. This could save a lot of weight and money. But without other suppliers offering the same competency, vehicle manufacturers run the risk of becoming single sourced to ZF. And the automaker would need to guarantee some level of volume in order to get the tooling and investment costs down (whether the costs get paid up front or amortized in the units would be a challenge either way).

      https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a1...transmissions/

      So if you're a chassis engineer... would you rather spend your time fine-tuning something you know; or take the leap? How much would you trust your buyers to tee up parts to your volume needs and specs while simultaneously trying to prove to your product team that the transverse leaf is equal to or better than what was in the predecessor vehicle?

      Maybe we'll start seeing more of this design as automakers come around with Volvo at the forefront! (remember the auto industry moves very slowly...). New ideas in the auto industry are often motivated by cutting costs; but rationalized by performance equivalence. Tesla is probably the only automaker that is really pushing radically on all fronts haha. I would like to learn how Volvo was able to push this through on their flagship XC90 and volume-leading XC60. It would make for an interesting case study on how engineers at car companies can try new things.

      Another example of the trickle-down of new suspension thinking is the Dodge Ram introducing the Link-Coil rear suspension over a decade ago in place of traditional leaf springs. This was a huge undertaking for everyone involved. Ford F150s have been spotted supporting independent rear suspensions as well.

      https://www.foxnews.com/auto/electri...ear-suspension (I don't care if you like Fox News or not, the point is to look at the photographs of the F150).
      Last edited by Holeydonut; 02-18-2020 at 02:09 PM.

    34. #32
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      Yeah, i'd agree with the review. I have about 20K on my 2018 XC60 T6 Inscription. The ride is super harsh and Sensus is absurdly slow. Aside from that it's good. I'm OK with Pilot Assist, I knew the limitations going in and I'm not going to bother complaining about lack of substantial updates.

      Frankly I would not mind a ride that feels race tuned if it also delivered race tuned performance. It's just rock hard for no apparent reason. Sensus got a bit better after the first software update...a bit. It's still super slow and on startup it's basically unusable which is a big letdown because it keeps annoying you long after you would have hoped to get used to it.

      Totally agree on the look and feel. It looks and feels premium inside about out (which makes the harsh ride even more annoying in some ways). I even have to apologize to people sometimes for the rock solid suspension. It reminds me of my first car I had which used to bottom out on bumps because the springs had collapsed. It's that bad. To be completely honest I wish i had attempted to return it for one with air suspension as soon as I realized how harsh the ride was but it was a busy time in my life and I just didn't have time.

    35. #33
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      I wonder how reliable the air suspension is on the XC60s. I have air suspension on my '14 Jeep Grand Cherokee Overland, and it's been trouble free. But, the air suspensions on '13 and older Grand Cherokees were rife with issues, and really expensive to repair. When I bought mine, I tested with and without air ride. The air ride made an immense difference in the ride. Aside from a slightly mushy feel when hard cornering, it rides like a dream. I wouldn't want a Grand Cherokee without it. Luckily it was redesigned for '14. Sounds like it could possibly be a must in the XC60. I'd love some feedback from both sides of the issue by actual owners.

    36. #34
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      Quote Originally Posted by jacko15 View Post
      I wonder how reliable the air suspension is on the XC60s. I have air suspension on my '14 Jeep Grand Cherokee Overland, and it's been trouble free. But, the air suspensions on '13 and older Grand Cherokees were rife with issues, and really expensive to repair. When I bought mine, I tested with and without air ride. The air ride made an immense difference in the ride. Aside from a slightly mushy feel when hard cornering, it rides like a dream. I wouldn't want a Grand Cherokee without it. Luckily it was redesigned for '14. Sounds like it could possibly be a must in the XC60. I'd love some feedback from both sides of the issue by actual owners.
      I have a 2019 T8 without Air suspension. I kept going back and forth to get it or not....I had tested both and I didn't notice a pile of difference.....I really wanted it as it looked cool going up and down,lol They had to fix a small scratch on my T8 so they gave me a loaner T8 with Air for the week.....I thought for sure I was going to regret not getting it.....nope, I didn't notice that much of a difference. I discussed the air suspension with the sales manager and he admitted they had been a few issues with the air suspension, mostly in the colder months and was centered on moisture in the system freezing the system. There is a thread in the XC90 forum and I think you will see that when iots cold, that is when the issues arise (or in this case, dont rise,lol) It is something you need to test drive for urself....just like some say the Inscription seats are the best ever....some say they are horrible.
      2019 XC 60 T8 Inscription Osmium Grey
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    37. #35
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      Quote Originally Posted by flames9 View Post
      I have a 2019 T8 without Air suspension...
      Thanks! That's some very useful information. I'll check out the XC90 forum. The Jeep system is the same as the MB system, closed, nitrogen filled, so no real moisture problem. Leaks were it's downfall. Good to know that there's not a huge difference in ride quality.

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