Help with a 1973 P1800ES - Engine troubles rough idle/bogging
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    1. #1
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      Help with a 1973 P1800ES - Engine troubles rough idle/bogging

      Hi,

      I finally acquired a p1800ES (1973) about a month ago after quite some time admiring the P1800 series cars. I always liked Volvos and we do have a 1991 240 as well. It looks pretty decent in terms of rust and such since it is a California car, and for the interior it really only needs the front seats redone and eventually maybe the cracked dash. When I first got it and drove it it was running fairly well (I say this because I have no real way to compare it). The only thing I noticed from the start is that it had a slight hesitation from idle to acceleration and so I just drove it a bit more aggressively and that seemed to work well. It started right up and idled at around 900 when hot and all seemed pretty smooth.

      After I bought it, I drove it for 45 minutes straight (including freeway speeds) while keeping an eye on the plethora of amazing gauges in the cockpit. Again all was well. Over the next few days I took it for a few rides along the coast etc, with the longest drive probably being around 2 hrs. Again, aside from the hesitations when driving it too cautiously it seemed to run fine. One of the symptoms of the hesitation would be on low acceleration (slight throttle) it would feel like it was in too high of a gear and jump/stutter/buck. With a decent amount of throttle/driving it slightly aggressively it seemed not to be a real issue.

      As I like to fiddle with things and have been doing some mechanical work on my own cars for a while, I started to try and familiarize myself with the engine/system of this car and soon learned that (as many cars from the early era of fuel injection) there is A LOT to learn/troubleshoot. (And of course at the same time there is a lot of stuff that can go wrong or be out of whack and also many parts are hmmm lets say scarce and fickle). Of course the first few things I did was change the oil/filter, check all the fluids, pull the plugs to get an idea of how they look (all looked gray to brown which I felt like was decent, maybe on the lean side). I also changed the transmission oil just to see what I am working with. There are definitely some gaskets on the oil pan etc. that need to be addressed but after cleaning some of it and keeping an eye on any potential puddles, it doesn't seem to be an emergency.

      After spending a few hours crawling google and various message boards I figured I should reset the throttle plate and throttle position switch and give it a good cleaning with some DeOxit D5 to try and start to set things up to spec and see if that helps the hesitation issues. After the cleaning I reset it according to the instructions (throttle plate ¼-1/2 turn open, TPS slightly more CCW after getting continuity on the bottom pins) and then went ahead and started the engine to see if anything had changed. The symptoms were still the same. I proceeded to clean it again and reset it once more just for good measure. I also wiggled most of the wires a bit and generally took a closer look at all the hoses and connections in the engine compartment. I noticed that a lot of the 'rubber boots' were falling apart and also some of the connector housings. Even though I could not see anything obviously 'wrong' it did concern me at the time. After fiddling with the TPS and throttle plate some more, I started the engine and I got a really high idle (like 2000rpm). I flicked the throttle a few times and got it to settle but some of the times it would just not settle back down.

      During that time I also checked for a vacuum on the Auxiliary Air Valve when the engine was hot and realized that it was stuck open. (I found a used TPS and AAV on ebay and gave it a shot). I figured maybe the engine was running rich but pinching off the AAV didn't change anything. I unplugged the cold start valve and connected a pressure gauge to see where my fuel pressure was sitting. My gauge indicated 35 PSI so I adjusted the fuel pressure regulator down to slightly under 30 PSI (mind you it is a harbor freight one ).

      In the meantime the engine started to run somewhat rough (almost like an 8 cylinder or in other words not on all cylinders and was shaking at times when idling but still at around 900RPM). It now also didn't start up on first crank any longer and just generally didn't sound as healthy as when I first started fiddling with it . At this point I am not even able to drive it any longer as it has no power and dies as soon as I use the accelerator. I basically had to stumble home relying on the TPS to trigger some injections and riding the clutch so I could make it around the block at 5 mph in first.

      I did a lot more googling and message board crawling and started testing some of the sensors with my DVM. I sucked on the tube to the MAP sensor and checked the resistances which checked out as specified. The coolant temp sensor and air temp sensor seemed within range although the wiring of the coolant sensor looked very suspect. (On a side note: Is this the same reading I get on my temp gauge?). I haven't tested the thermo time switch (?name) yet but am not sure that it would really affect how the engine runs once it runs. By now I had ordered a tune up kit with plugs/wires/cap/rotor/points/condensor/coil (not sure what kind of ballast I should get). I did test it with another blue Bosch coil with no changes but will install the new Lucas coil. The pickup points at the distributor (21/12/22) tested out ok as far as I can tell. Next up will be checking some of the connections at the ECU (Bosch 02800000340). I also ordered a bunch of housings and pins from repro parts in germany to eventually redo the injection harness as mentioned in several posts.

      After installing all the tune-up parts and testing the connections to the ECU (which all seem good) it still runs rough. I keep thinking it is something to do with fuel delivery. I disconnected the large fuel filter but it was wide open and the fuel looks extremely clean. When I first start it after the initial priming through the pump it revs up to 1000 rpm and sounds great then falls back and just kinda struggles and shakes from then on. The only way it seems that I can affect it is by flicking the throttle open to trigger the TPS pulses and even then I have to do it fairly fast in order to get a sustained rev. It also seems that it doesn't really matter whether the engine is hot or cold. I will have to check the injectors now that the seals arrived with all the parts I ordered. What really gets me is that it all started after I cleaned the TPS and reset the throttle plate, which of course could be a coincidence but it just doesn't make sense to me after reading up on the D-Jet system. At this point it seems that the only thing left is a couple (partially) clogged injectors? Can valves that need to get adjusted be at the root? Why would it 'all of a sudden' be so bad?

      Any help/insight would be much appreciated. I apologize for this horrendously long post. I tried to write down as much information as I could.

      Thank you,

      Stefan

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    3. #2
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      Hi, yes , thats a lot of info. Do you have the Djet trouble shooting manual?

      I'd use that as a start to diagnose you rough running.

      http://volvo1800pictures.com/documen...lt_tracing.pdf

      If the problem started after you worked on the TPS, that would need rechecking. Not familiar with a Lucas coil for 1800, but the blue Bosch is recommended.

      Heres a link to the TPS adjustment i've used successfully.


      https://vcoa.org/forum/9-P1800-1800S...onic-FI-system
      Last edited by craig300; 09-05-2020 at 08:56 PM.

    4. #3
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      Congratulations on the purchase - you will eventually get it sorted.

      That link provided by craig300 to the D jet fault tracing manual is your new bible for the church of D jet. Get it and study it if you don't already have a copy.

      A couple of thoughts on the fuel pressure. The original D jet ran at 28 psi and this was later bumped up to 30 psi for the 1972 or 1973 cars. Increasing the fuel pressure causes the engine to run richer over the complete range of operation. Assuming your gauge is correct, a previous owner might have cranked the fuel pressure up to 35 psi to compensate for other problems. What first comes to mind is given the age of the car what is the condition of the injectors. You can pull them out of the holders and if you are careful you can check the spray patterns; however, I would be inclined to remove them and send them off to somebody like RC Fuel Injection or WitchHunter and have them cleaned and flow tested. As a preliminary test, try cranking your fuel pressure back up to 35 psi and see if that helps with engine operation. If it does, then you have a big clue as to where your problem might be.

      Did you check your fuel pressure at idle or did you just measure the static head after starting up the pump. If you just did a static pressure test (engine not running) your fuel system may not be able to deliver the required pressure at idle or maintain that pressure under load. If you haven't done so already I would change the fuel filter and then arrange to take a fuel pressure test under load which is admittedly tricky to do safely. This would confirm that the pump and the rest of the system is up to snuff.

      If the valve clearances are out the engine will run poorly. Of course that normally does not change all of a sudden

      As an observation, you can't really set up the idle system properly if the AAV is not functioning. The D jet is a MAP based fuel injection system. Air leaks including a stuck AAV don't affect fuel mixture, they drop the manifold pressure which the controller interprets as somebody holding the throttle open and the controller adds fuel so the RPM climbs. To get the idle speed down with a stuck open AAV some owners have closed off the idle air by pass screw and fiddled with the throttle stop screw to try and close the throttle plate more. Doesn't really work. When you get your new to you AAV which hopefully works then you can go through the idle setting procedure again. If you have not already read this in the D jet trouble shooting manual, idle speed must never be set with the throttle stop screw. Set the stop screw and the throttle switch as described in the manual, confirm the AAV is closed and then set the hot idle speed using the air bypass adjustment screw in the bottom of the throttle opening.

      The coolant sensor at the front of the block is only for the D jet system. The gauge sensor is typically on the top back portion of the head just back from the valve cover. Yes, the wiring on the coolant sensor does harden and the insulation cracks off and if the wires short out or go open that can cause the controller to add or delete fuel when needed. That failure can be a source of running rich. I had to cut open the harness and replace about 2' of wire to the sensor on my B20E. Unfortunately, the injector plug wiring suffers the same heat related damage.

      The phenomena where it starts and RPM increases to 1000 and then RPM drops might reinforce a fuel supply issue. Assuming that the cold start injector is working the engine starts up on the cold start fuel; but, once the injector shuts off if the engine is not getting sufficient delivery through the port injectors it will run poorly. Confirming running fuel pressure and that your injectors operate correctly will be a good first step.

      Be aware that the B20E and B20F suffer from a hot restart problem. When the injectors get heat soaked from a shut off hot engine there flow rate is reduced which results in a lean condition which complicates hot restarts and can result in a minute or two of crappy running until fuel flow through the injector cools it off and results in correct delivery. Volvo came up with a 'kit' consisting of phenolic insulating washers that are mounted under and on top of the injector holder. They help to insulate the injector holder and the injector itself from heat transfer from the head. I expect that your car being a 1973 should have these installed from the factory; but, check to make sure they are there. I don't know exactly when Volvo came up with the retrofit. The washers help reduce the problem; but, do not totally eliminate the problem if you live where air temperatures are in the high 30s (Celsius).

      I have kind of departed from the Church of D jet; but, it is as I noted a MAP system and MAP systems can generally function without a throttle sensor. The throttle sensor refines operation. As I recall the throttle sensor on the D jet has a contact which puts the controller into idle mode, it has the contacts which open and close as you open the throttle which provide some acceleration enrichment (you have already discovered those) and it has a contact which closes and shuts off fuel delivery when you lift the throttle (some years may not have this). You may have idle problems (if its incorrectly adjusted or the idle contact has failed it is common for the engine to hunt at idle) and transitions when accelerating may lag if the TPS is screwed; but, generally a failed TPS will not cause major engine running problems (shaking).
      Last edited by 142 Guy; 09-06-2020 at 12:48 AM.
      A 142 of course. What do you expect? I'm the 142 guy. / 1971 142 E 102 color

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      Thank you for all the detailed responses!

      I have been a bit busy the last couple of weeks and didn't have a lot of time to work on the car unfortunately. I did test the fuel pressure with the engine running and under load (granted that only means revving not driving) and it stays steady. I only started adjusting the pressure after the symptoms started. My thought was that the previous owner's mechanic ran into issues and fiddled with the system to make it run ok but completely out of spec hence the 'sudden' poor running when trying to re-calibrate it to factory. I removed the injectors and cranked some fuel into some jars, it looks pretty even but of course I couldn't really tell if it is the correct amount. I disconnected the coolant temp sensor and it seems to run better. I ordered all the materials I need to make a new harness starting after the fire wall, hopefully that will help. at least I will have some peace of mind. I remember you mentioning in another post that if I get continuity across the contacts on the cold start valve that it is fried. That is the case, which would explain why it isn't starting immediately as it did when I bought it. I must have somehow 'broken' it when I attached a fuel pressure gauge there. I don't think I will replace that any time soon. It seems way to expensive for what it does. I live in California so hopefully it won't be too much of an issue. As for the idle, Let's just say I need the engine to run right again first before I even 'care' about the correct idle speed the AAV I got from ebay seems to work better but we shall see. I may be able to resurrect the other one as well. As far as the throttle stop screw. My troubles all started after trying to set it all back to spec including resetting the set screw to make sure it hadn't been used to set idle. I hope I will have some time soon to rewire it all and then do another round of tests. I will report back after that and we will see how it affected things. I also posted on BB and Ron mentioned the zinc paste which I also plan on applying while I go through some of the electrical connections.

      Again thank you so much for your input,

      Stefan

    7. #5
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      The coolant temp sensor has high resistance when cold (> 3000 ohms @ 10C) and lower resistance when hot (1000 - 1400 ohms at 40C). If it runs better with the sensor disconnected the infinite resistance is probably forcing the controller to add warm up enrichment fuel all the time, the equivalent of cranking the fuel pressure up to 35 psi. That reenforces the likelihood that you have a fuel delivery problem of some kind.

      I don't remember making the comment about the contacts on the cold start valve; but, it is entirely possible. I find myself forgetting more and more these days - definitely not a reliable witness! Are you talking about that thermal timer thing that later D jets used for control of the cold start valve? I would have to review the operation of that thing because my D jet was 1971 and the cold start injector was controlled directly by the D jet controller rather than a thermal timer. Since you are a warm climate dude, you can do a reasonable impersonation of the cold start valve by pressing down and releasing the throttle pedal while cranking the engine. You have already discovered that the injectors pulse as you open and close the throttle. With the fuel system primed each pulse squirts a little gas in. Just don't over do it since you can flood the engine.
      A 142 of course. What do you expect? I'm the 142 guy. / 1971 142 E 102 color

    8. #6
      Junior Member scaramoucheii's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by 142 Guy View Post
      What first comes to mind is given the age of the car what is the condition of the injectors. You can pull them out of the holders and if you are careful you can check the spray patterns; however, I would be inclined to remove them and send them off to somebody like RC Fuel Injection or WitchHunter and have them cleaned and flow tested. As a preliminary test, try cranking your fuel pressure back up to 35 psi and see if that helps with engine operation. If it does, then you have a big clue as to where your problem might be.

      Yes you really need to parse down the prose,

      Having said that I suspected the Injectors after reading the Title and 2nd paragraph, and after searching for "injectors" and "tank", I then stopped reading

      The injectors are now clogged from all the crap in the tank that was sucked into them, You need to remove and clean the tank (and possibly seal it if it is a bit rusty), as well as the injectors, or else you will have the same problem after another 2 hr drive.

      An alternative to getting the injectors serviced is purchasing some aftermarket ones. They are ALMOST as cheap as getting the ones you have serviced and there is no guarantee that after servicing all 4 injectors will be within spec.


      If you haven't already purchased from Summit before I think you get a 10% discount or some other coupon when you register online


      Once the tank is SPOTLESS, https://www.summitracing.com/parts/poi-49239

      And aftermarket injectors, (I'm using these on my 1800ES for the past year or more and they are fine)

      https://www.summitracing.com/parts/b...lvo/model/1800
      Currently: 2016 XC90 T8, 1973 1800ES Original D-Jet, 1973 142 B20B, 1977 242 B230FT
      Previously: 1974 144 B20B, 1974 142 B20F, 1989 740, 1981 242 GLT, 1996 740, 1999 V70

    9. #7
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      Quote Originally Posted by LBC P1800ES View Post
      I remember you mentioning in another post that if I get continuity across the contacts on the cold start valve that it is fried. That is the case, which would explain why it isn't starting immediately as it did when I bought it.

      Stefan
      Just to be clear, you are talking about the cold start injector, not the thermal timer that controls the cold start injector? If I wrote "get continuity across the contacts on the cold start valve that it is fried" I don't know where my head was. The cold start valve is just a solenoid like the main injectors. If you measure the resistance across the terminals of the cold start valve you should measure the resistance of the solenoid coil. I am going to provide a 'guess' that it will be somewhere around 10 - 25 ohms. If you measure a dead short or a complete open circuit across the terminals, then yes the valve is fried.

      The easiest test for the cold start valve is described on page 3-63 of that D jet trouble shooting manual that Craig300 linked.

      The thermal timer is a two terminal device (3 if you include the ground connection through the timer body). Terminal W on the timer is a connection to a heater element. The other side of the heater is connected to ground. Terminal G is a bimetal thermostatic contact. The other side of the contact is connected to ground. When the engine is cold, the G terminal is connected to ground and provides a path to ground for the current that energizes the cold start valve. The starter solenoid control terminal is connected to the W heater element and one side of the cold start valve. When you crank the starter, 12 v gets applied to the heater element and the cold start valve. The other side of the cold start valve gets grounded through the bimetal contact in the thermal timer and the valve opens applying fuel. In the meantime, the heater element is warming up the bi metal contact and at some point it pops open and shuts off the valve. I don't think Volvo provides an operating temperature for bimetal contact in the thermal timer so if you want to check the continuity of the bimetal contact best to do it when the engine is quite cold.

      Replacement cold start injectors are pricey. However, they appear to be rather durable. The fuel delivery is not exactly precision so as long as it opens and as long as it does not drool when shut off that probably qualifies as functioning.
      A 142 of course. What do you expect? I'm the 142 guy. / 1971 142 E 102 color

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      Yes I did mean the Cold start injector and not the thermal timer. I will check again but I think I got continuity on it and not resistance. If I understand you correctly: if the thermal timer is busted, the cold start injector would continue to supply extra fuel even when the engine is hot but only during cranking, which should not really affect my situation?

      scaramoucheii, I don't think I mentioned tank and it seems I have clean fuel and good pressure. Injectors may definitely be the culprit but I feel like starting with some good wiring would be my first step (and def. cheaper and necessary anyways). Thank you for the links though!

      Best,

      Stefan

    11. #9
      Junior Member scaramoucheii's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by LBC P1800ES View Post

      scaramoucheii, I don't think I mentioned tank and it seems I have clean fuel and good pressure. Injectors may definitely be the culprit but I feel like starting with some good wiring would be my first step (and def. cheaper and necessary anyways). Thank you for the links though!

      Best,

      Stefan
      Hey Stefan

      When you got the car how long had it been sitting? Have you removed the Fuel Gauge Sender and looked inside the tank, Also there is a Sock Filter on the pickup tube (If you have a correct 1973 ES tank) and that may be clogged or missing.

      You really should check the tank and blow out the fuel lines to ensure that you have the correct VOLUME of fuel getting to the injectors and only then carry on to diagnose if it is an injector issue , ECU (D-jet) or Ignition problem.

      To check the Sock filter you need to remove the fuel and then remove the large plug on the bottom of the tank,

      Having correct fuel pressure on the injector manifold does not indicate that the injectors are spraying the correct VOLUME of fuel into the intake manifold, In fact injectors clogged from crap in the tank getting into their screen filters may help indicate an incorrect PSI on the fuel rail. A clogged Tank Sock filter with EVEN WORSE Clogged injectors could still allow indication of 30 PSI on theFuel Rail Manifold but not allow correct VOLUME. The Fuel Manifold Pressure is set to meter the correct volume of fuel through correctly operating injectors, If you have a Flow problem the volume is incorrect even if the PSI is indicated at 29-30psi.

      One of the Symptoms you cite sounds very familiar .... Gradual decline in performance after having the car a while, Retune D-Jet, further decline in performance, check all D-jet components .....Been there Done that ....

      you wrote

      "At this point I am not even able to drive it any longer as it has no power and dies as soon as I use the accelerator. I basically had to stumble home relying on the TPS to trigger some injections and riding the clutch so I could make it around the block at 5 mph in first."

      = Clogged Injectors ... Clean Tank, Blow Out Fuel lines with Carb Cleaner and Air, Replace serviced Tank with new sock filter, Retune D-jet, service or replace injectors

      EDIT.

      Also read the last few posts on 142guy's thread, interesting information about injector delivery pressure and flow rates. And affirmation of the BA (Beck Arnley) Injectors. Note that 142guy uses a MegaSquirt ECU, not the stock D-Jet computer, but Fuel Rail pressure and Injector configuration is the same

      https://forums.swedespeed.com/showth...=1#post7670415
      Last edited by scaramoucheii; 09-09-2020 at 01:11 PM.
      Currently: 2016 XC90 T8, 1973 1800ES Original D-Jet, 1973 142 B20B, 1977 242 B230FT
      Previously: 1974 144 B20B, 1974 142 B20F, 1989 740, 1981 242 GLT, 1996 740, 1999 V70

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      I don't think it had been sitting at all, but I will definitely follow up on what you just posted. I did buy a replacement 'sock' and filter just in case. The good thing is, when I pulled the large fuel filter, the gas that came out of it (a lot ) was completely clean on both ends. This leads me to believe that the tank should be reasonably clean. Of course I won't know until I actually check . I will have to go through the records of the previous owner, he had a pretty detailed log of work done and if I remember correctly the injectors were replaced in the last 5 years. (Which again indicates to me that they were trying to maybe find the source of the same issues I am experiencing)

      Thank you again for the link and also the good pointers.

      Stefan

      P.S. Here is a pic of the fuel pattern (prob appr. 3ml per container after cranking twice 5-6 rounds)

      image
      Last edited by LBC P1800ES; 09-09-2020 at 03:33 PM.

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      And of course the car. I feel rude not to at least share what we are talking about.

      [IMG]image[/IMG]

    14. #12
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      Very small sample size compared to the size of the uncalibrated jars, what does "prob appr. 3ml per container" even mean? 1ml? 4ml?

      What are the black specks inside jar 1?

      What does the spray pattern look like, which is also critical. Jar 4 was more drops on inside of glass

      Just saying that this is not a very scientific or well engineered test,

      the easiest first step is to clean the fuel system

      Also you can clean the screens in the injectors yourself by removing the injectors from the car and holding them upside down and spraying cleaner in the input. This will give you some indication of what crap is in there, then if the car runs alot better after cleaning the injector screens your onto something.
      Currently: 2016 XC90 T8, 1973 1800ES Original D-Jet, 1973 142 B20B, 1977 242 B230FT
      Previously: 1974 144 B20B, 1974 142 B20F, 1989 740, 1981 242 GLT, 1996 740, 1999 V70

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      Stefan;

      Great info from Scaramoucheii!

      To be of any value, you need to capture a lot more to get a relative delivery volume, while also noting the spray pattern...flushing the final filter in the injectors and capturing what flushes out in a white paper towel can sometimes be informative. From My own experience with a 73 ES, and a number of others I've heard about...rust particles in tank are a common issue... they block FuFi or even prefilter in tank to the extent that pressure at the rail collapsed...then all bets are off...

      Good Hunting

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      Be sure of the quality of fuel, as well. As a Volvo Rep, I once traveled to a dealer in another state that had a '74 140 that would not run. I had them show fuel delivery and immediately noticed that the fuel didn't smell like fresh gasoline (petrol, to others). They replaced the fuel and it ran great, as opposed to not at all. They had literally tried every fuel and ignition component on the car and it would not start. The funny thing is that it was towed in after it had just been fueled. Sometimes we're just too close to a problem to see the obvious, or don't have the correct relevant information.
      One thing that comes to mind about the "E" cars is that the injector rubber ring can leak air. Back in the day, we replaced those on a prophylactic basis.
      2009 XC90 FWD 3.2, 2013 S60 T5
      In the past: '89 745, '91 940, '82 242, '67 122S, '67 123GT, '71 142E, '62 PV544.

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      Quote Originally Posted by LBC P1800ES View Post
      Yes I did mean the Cold start injector and not the thermal timer. I will check again but I think I got continuity on it and not resistance. If I understand you correctly: if the thermal timer is busted, the cold start injector would continue to supply extra fuel even when the engine is hot but only during cranking, which should not really affect my situation?

      scaramoucheii, I don't think I mentioned tank and it seems I have clean fuel and good pressure. Injectors may definitely be the culprit but I feel like starting with some good wiring would be my first step (and def. cheaper and necessary anyways). Thank you for the links though!

      Best,

      Stefan
      If continuity means zero resistance, then the injector is shorted out and has failed. However, the coil is relatively low resistance and sometimes less expensive digital multi meters have a hard time distinguishing between 0 resistance an low resistance. If you don't have a digital meter you purchased for an auto parts store, the better test may be to apply 12 volts directly to the cold start valve connections. If you can hear a click then the cold start valve solenoid is still working. Of course, the cold start valve may still leak or may not flow because of dirt. Those are mechanical problems that you can't find with a multi meter tester. The test described in the trouble shooting manual is probably the best test.

      The thermal timer can fail in at least four ways.
      1. The heater element fails in which case the injector may stay on too long during cranking
      2. The contact in the timer is permanently open in which case the injector will never open
      3. The contact in the timer is stuck permanently closed in which case the injector may stay on too long during cranking
      4. The bimetal contact may drift in its operating temperature (hard / impossible to diagnose)

      The cold start injector only operates during engine cranking
      A 142 of course. What do you expect? I'm the 142 guy. / 1971 142 E 102 color

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      Quote Originally Posted by Ron Kwas View Post
      Stefan;

      Great info from Scaramoucheii!

      To be of any value, you need to capture a lot more to get a relative delivery volume, while also noting the spray pattern...flushing the final filter in the injectors and capturing what flushes out in a white paper towel can sometimes be informative. From My own experience with a 73 ES, and a number of others I've heard about...rust particles in tank are a common issue... they block FuFi or even prefilter in tank to the extent that pressure at the rail collapsed...then all bets are off...

      Good Hunting
      Yes, if stuff managed to make it past the primary fuel filter then you will almost certainly have issues with the injectors. If you have the correct large D jet fuel filter in place, my experience has been that crud does not make it past the filter before fuel flow becomes a problem because the filter is plugged. On cars that have been parked for a long time with fuel in the system I have heard that the injector screens can rust / deteriorate which causes issues.
      A 142 of course. What do you expect? I'm the 142 guy. / 1971 142 E 102 color

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      My injectors have the crimped on hose ends attached to them, but are clamped to the fuel rail. Should I just disconnect them at the rail then? Yes I know it isn't scientific but the way that my fuel rail sits and the lengths of fuel line (supply and return) combined with the wiring on the other side make it almost impossible to move it any length to set anything up beyond makeshift. In that test it was mostly to find out whether they are all firing at all and whether it was somewhat of an even amount. I will definitely take a look inside the tank this weekend and start rewiring the D-Jet FI harness. The plug on the bottom of the tank seems awfully small to get my hand in there (maybe a few fingers), is the sock right above that plug for access? As far as fuel goes, I put in 91 octane, from a regular gas station (not cheap cash ones) but you know how it is in California, you just never know what you get. Do you add additives at all?

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      And yes, the correct large fuel filter is installed and not clogged and clean fuel came out on both ends. Absolutely no sign of rust at all.

    21. #19
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      Quote Originally Posted by LBC P1800ES View Post
      My injectors have the crimped on hose ends attached to them, but are clamped to the fuel rail. Should I just disconnect them at the rail then?

      is the sock right above that plug for access? As far as fuel goes, I put in 91 octane, from a regular gas station (not cheap cash ones) but you know how it is in California, you just never know what you get. Do you add additives at all?
      If you want to remove the injectors for whatever reason, the clamped barb connection on the rail is the normal location for removal. If your injectors are original, inspect the little stub hoses for condition. The hoses will eventually deteriorate and may start leaking under the crimped fitting. This is easily fixed by replacing the hose with a new one and using a screw clamp at the injector end because there is a hose barb on the Bosch injector. One of my crimped hoses on an injector pulled right off because the rubber had compressed so much; however, on the others I has to take a dremel cutoff wheel to cut the crimp fitting to get the hoses off which can be slightly fussy work.

      The large plug with a fitting for a square plug wrench is the access to the filter sock. There is no way you are getting your fingers or a look inside the tank from that access hole. You might be able to sneak a fiber optic inspection camera in from that hole. If you want to try and see inside the tank without using a camera, the best access is probably from the fuel level sensor hole. That would definitely show you whether there is corrosion on the floor of the tank below the opening; but, not anywhere else.

      According to your comments fuel delivery up to the injectors seems to be OK. As such, I suggest focusing more on the injectors themselves. You can try the cleaning processes described; but, short of doing your own fuel flow tests which is a fair amount of work you won't know that the injectors are working correctly. Its probably best to send them to an injector cleaning service who can clean and flow test them. With the flow test results you then know that you have injectors that work and if that does not resolve your engine problems you can move on to other potential causes.
      A 142 of course. What do you expect? I'm the 142 guy. / 1971 142 E 102 color

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      I looked inside the tank and it looks very good. No crud or rust just metal and clean fuel. I couldn't really see the 'sock'. I will at some point empty it and check/replace it. I also disconnected the injectors at the rail and used some carb cleaner on them. Nothing exciting there either. I will drop them off at RC since they are local for me and I think around 30$ a piece to clean and test, so well worth the peace of mind like you said. I ordered a new coolant temperature sensor. Redid the wiring. Will report back when I get the new sensor, cleaned injectors.

      Thanks all for the comments!

      Stefan

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      Stefan;

      ...following with interest...!

      I don't know if there were multiple versions of the Prefifter, and if one of them may indeed be something resembling a "sock", but if you are referring to the in-tank pre-filter, located, and simply stuck onto the pic-up tube right above the Tank-Sump, I found that to be a cylindrically shaped plastic, fine-meshed Filter about 2 X 1/2" (size estimate from memory) certainly not something I would call a "sock"...and as far as actually seeing it...there's just not much to see when looking from above, even if the sender hole is right above the Pick-up Tube/Sump, so I don't expect it would be too visible or obvious...but if and when you drain the Tank and open the sump to inspect, please take some pix for reference!

      Cheers

    24. #22
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      Quote Originally Posted by Ron Kwas View Post
      Stefan;

      ...following with interest...!

      I don't know if there were multiple versions of the Prefifter, and if one of them may indeed be something resembling a "sock", but if you are referring to the in-tank pre-filter, located, and simply stuck onto the pic-up tube right above the Tank-Sump, I found that to be a cylindrically shaped plastic, fine-meshed Filter about 2 X 1/2" (size estimate from memory) certainly not something I would call a "sock"...and as far as actually seeing it...there's just not much to see when looking from above, even if the sender hole is right above the Pick-up Tube/Sump, so I don't expect it would be too visible or obvious...but if and when you drain the Tank and open the sump to inspect, please take some pix for reference!

      Cheers
      I think you're right about the 2" slip'on prefilter for the E's. The 3/4" x 6" sock that attached to the lift pump came with '74 Jetronics. There were some driveability issues, so many dealers simply removed them to eliminate the possibility of being sucked against the inlet port.
      The E cars had issues, too, like the first one's just stopping the engine at freeway speeds. By the time the tow-truck arrived, the things would run again on their own. Pick-up screens were an early Wild A**ed Guess, so many were pulled and tossed. Turns out it was the engine temperature sensor.
      2009 XC90 FWD 3.2, 2013 S60 T5
      In the past: '89 745, '91 940, '82 242, '67 122S, '67 123GT, '71 142E, '62 PV544.

    25. #23
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      Good to know, I thought I might be able to see it from the sender hole. I am just calling it a 'sock' because that is what I saw people calling it. I ordered a replacement for it a while back (see pic) and that was the closest thing resembling that

      [IMG]volvo-ees140164200-fuel-filter[/IMG]

    26. #24
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      That is the part (#688593). They have changed in appearance over time and with the manufacturer. Sock, pre filter, lump strainer - call it what you want! Some like the one in the photo have a solid bottom. When you replace it, make sure that you don't shove it to far up the suction tube because you can block / restrict the suction line to the pump which will cause fuel starvation problems.
      A 142 of course. What do you expect? I'm the 142 guy. / 1971 142 E 102 color

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      Unfortunately no real update. The new coolant temperature sensor didn't solve anything. I removed the injectors and will hopefully get them cleaned this week (the paperwork from the PO states that they were replaced in 2018 so not sure that will do any good. They look like Beck and Arnleys but not positive). I adjusted the valves, they seemed a bit tight. Should all be close to .016 now. When I removed the spark plugs to make it easier to adjust the valves I noticed they were all fouled now (replaced them when I started to fiddle with everything). This seems weird as I assumed that I was not getting enough fuel. I am somewhat confused about this. Will update as I keep moving forward.

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      Hi, beck arnley have a different numbering system than shown..158-0438 is their correct number. That number in your photo, doesn't come up conclusively to the correct injector for the B20 FI. Nor does it correspond to an any fuel injector numbering system I could find. I'd ensure that you have the correct injectors before spending and time and $$ testing/cleaning them. My 1800E ran "pretty good" with sand in the filters of the original Bosch injectors, before I replaced them with the BA injectors I got from Rock auto, and then it ran "very good".

    29. #27
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      I am pretty sure that is the BA 158-0438 injector. I went out and checked the BA injectors which have been in my car for 4+ years. The number on the side of the injector is definitely not 158-0438. After 4+ years it is rather obscured; but, looks to be the same as in your photo. Perhaps it is the part number from the company that BA purchases the injector from as opposed to BA's catalog number. Since the injectors are not the original 40+ year old Bosch injectors, I would no longer suggest having them sent off to be cleaned and flow tested, particularly since your fuel system appears to be clean.

      If the spark plugs are fuel fouled, non leaking injectors, fuel pressure set to 30 psi and a functioning coolant temperature sensor would be the primary culprits which you seemed to have addressed. In your first post you mentioned replacing the oil and filter; however, I don't recall you mentioning anything about checking the air filter. Have you done the basic electrical checks on the manifold pressure sensor? If you have one of those hand held vacuum pumps you can also do a check on the diaphragm on the manifold pressure sensor to make sure that it is not leaking.

      In your first post you mentioned that the spark plugs looked OK; but, now they are no longer OK? What plug and heat range are you running in the engine?

      When you did the valve lash check did you use a narrow Vee tip feeler gauge inserted from the side of the rocker? The rockers develop a wear groove where they contact the valve tip and unless the rockers have been resurfaced a conventional flat feeler gauge slid from the front to the back of the rocker face to check for clearance will not accurately measure clearance. Using a flat feeler gauge will give you a clearance perhaps 0.004 grater than you think you are measuring. That would cause reduced performance; but, I don't think be responsible for all of your problems.

      How is your engine compression and your manifold vacuum at idle? If the valves or rings are worn fiddling with the D jet is not going to resolve those problems.
      A 142 of course. What do you expect? I'm the 142 guy. / 1971 142 E 102 color

    30. #28
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      When I looked up the injector with that number I didn't really get a hit on google either. After some research and I believe it was summitracing I zoomed in on a BA injector picture and it had the same number printed on the side.

      The spark plugs are 'sooty' now. That may be because I was only able to run it on idle and I started the engine like 100 times without ever being able to drive the car? (The plugs I ordered are these: https://classicvolvorestoration.com/...park-plug.html ; They were part of the ignition kit sold on that site) I did however replace the spark plugs only after my troubles started.

      I did test the MAP sensor twice (once at the sensor and once at the ecu). I also sucked on the vacuum line and didn't notice any leak. I did take the front grill off and looked at the air filter and it looked very clean. (Does the evap canister next to the air filter have any influence on how the engine runs?)

      As you assumed, I adjusted the valves with a flat feeler gauge. I guess I will have to order some other gauges and redo that part (I have not started the engine up since the adjustment)
      I will run a compression check, will have to dig through my tools to see if I have a vacuum gauge somewhere and check that also.

      Thank you again!

      Stefan

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      One more thing that keeps haunting me is that the battery says it is from 2013. The voltage checks out fine, the fluid levels are good in the battery, and the alternator seems to be working (I will double check that as well).

    32. #30
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      Quote Originally Posted by LBC P1800ES View Post
      When I looked up the injector with that number I didn't really get a hit on google either. After some research and I believe it was summitracing I zoomed in on a BA injector picture and it had the same number printed on the side.

      The spark plugs are 'sooty' now. That may be because I was only able to run it on idle and I started the engine like 100 times without ever being able to drive the car? (The plugs I ordered are these: https://classicvolvorestoration.com/...park-plug.html ; They were part of the ignition kit sold on that site) I did however replace the spark plugs only after my troubles started.

      I did test the MAP sensor twice (once at the sensor and once at the ecu). I also sucked on the vacuum line and didn't notice any leak. I did take the front grill off and looked at the air filter and it looked very clean. (Does the evap canister next to the air filter have any influence on how the engine runs?)

      As you assumed, I adjusted the valves with a flat feeler gauge. I guess I will have to order some other gauges and redo that part (I have not started the engine up since the adjustment)
      I will run a compression check, will have to dig through my tools to see if I have a vacuum gauge somewhere and check that also.

      Thank you again!

      Stefan
      That part # looks to be a heat range 7 (is the # on the plug insulator BP7HS?). If so that is the coldest plug that should be used in a B20. The more common NGK # is BPR6HS (the R just indicates resistor) which is a little hotter. Once you get things sorted and if you do a lot of highway driving in hot weather you could switch back to the 7 heat range. For driving around town the 6 heat range is probably a better choice.

      If you did an ignition 'kit', have a look at the distributor rotor. Measure the resistance between the center contact on the rotor and the tip of the rotor. Is the resistance effectively 0 or is it some high value? Bosch and Behru have been imbedding resistors in the rotor arms for RFI suppression and it appears that you may not be able to get new rotors without the embedded resistor. The problem with the embedded resistor is that there are reports of problems with them including complete failure where the resistor burns up destroying the rotor. If the resistance measures up zero, then rotor resistor issues are not your problem. If it doesn't measure up to zero ..... I am not sure what to do about that.

      If you still have the big black plastic filter cannister or metal cannister up front, they do pop open and you can examine the filter to confirm how dirty or clean it is. The PCV does get fresh air via a hose connected to the bottom of the cannister. Normally air flow is into the hose; but, over the years an oily film can accumulate on the inside of the filter. Replacement filters are available; but, you do have to search a bit. I know that HiPerformance Auto in Torrance used to have them

      http://hiperformanceautoservice.com/...oducts_id=1546

      If you need it, email them to confirm that it is the correct part because Volvo diddled with the sizes over the years.

      If you email or call them, being vintage Volvo specialists they are also a great technical resource and are helpful with a lot of problems.

      http://hiperformanceautoservice.com/
      A 142 of course. What do you expect? I'm the 142 guy. / 1971 142 E 102 color

    33. #31
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      Quote Originally Posted by LBC P1800ES View Post
      One more thing that keeps haunting me is that the battery says it is from 2013. The voltage checks out fine, the fluid levels are good in the battery, and the alternator seems to be working (I will double check that as well).
      The best running check on voltage is to measure the voltage at the + terminal on the ignition coil. With the engine running if it is around 13 volts then that is as good as it gets on a vintage Volvo. On my 142E it could be down as low as 11 volts (much lower when cranking) which required some remediation to fix that problem.
      A 142 of course. What do you expect? I'm the 142 guy. / 1971 142 E 102 color

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      The spark plugs are indeed heat-range 7s. Compression is appr. 116, 118, 120, 120 (cold 1 through 4). The vacuum is appr. 10 in of Hg (low? may also be because it is barely (rough) idling at around 600-700 rpm at the moment). Appr. 13V at the coil. I think I am getting close to an empty tank, so I will go down that rabbit hole next. When I pump the gas pedal a couple times before starting, the engine revs to maybe 1500-2000 rpm and sounds great and then basically either dies or idles roughly still. Could it be the fuel pump even though I get good pressure at the rail w/o drop after cranking? It just doesn't add up for me . I feel like I am running in circles

    35. #33
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      HI, looks like you have the correct injectors. Only 2 years old probably not plugged/malfunctioning, but worthwhile to at least check the screens. Compression numbers look a little low. Can you check when warm, and with a squirt of oil in the cylinders? Hold throttle wide open, with spark plugs removed when doing a compression check, best to disconnect the fuel pump relay when doing a compression check. Better to go to heat range 6 on the plugs, will help with fouling. Disconnect the thermal timer, not required to run, may need only a minute or two to warm up and then should run fine without a thermal timer connected, which is not designed to have any effect on a warmed up engine. Check for vacuum leaks especially around the intake manifold. Are all the hoses connected to the intake manifold in good condition and make a tight seal? I "think" I've read through this , but have you done any maintenance on the TPS? you can disconnect the TPS and it should run ok without it. Also check and clean the grounds for the FI system on the intake manifold.

    36. #34
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      My initial reaction is that your compression test numbers are a little low; however, I have a B20E (10.5:1 CR) and you have a B20F which is around 8.5:1 so the numbers might be OK. You would need to check the service manual to confirm the 'factory' values which will be at sea level and then correct for your altitude. The fact that the numbers are all close is a very good sign.

      My B20E has a vacuum of about 11.8 in Hg around 875 RPM. I would expect that a B20F idling around 875 to be more than 12 in Hg because of its K cam; but, your low idle RPM will reduce the vacuum so it is possibly an acceptable value. How was the steadiness of the vacuum gauge, no serious fluctuations in the needle?

      When I pump the gas pedal a couple times before starting, the engine revs to maybe 1500-2000 rpm and sounds great and then basically either dies or idles roughly still.
      Is this with a cold engine? If so, is your aux air valve opening when cold to increase the idle speed?

      Could it be the fuel pump even though I get good pressure at the rail w/o drop after cranking?
      I do not understand what you mean by drop after cranking. The basic test for fuel pressure should be done with the engine idling. My pressure gauge has a barbed Tee fitting that I insert into the line that supplies the cold start injector so I can do a running test at idle. If you think your having trouble maintaining fuel pressure you would do a driving test; but, that is much more difficult to do safely.
      A 142 of course. What do you expect? I'm the 142 guy. / 1971 142 E 102 color

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