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    1. #1
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      No more T6 just heard...

      Salesman just told me that Volvo no longer building S60 T6. Just T5 and T8. So you can no longer order a T6.

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    3. #2
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      Interesting, the T6 model still shows up in the 2021 online configurator.
      Volvo: 2020 V60 T8 Polestar Engineered
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    4. #3
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      Quote Originally Posted by fiatlux View Post
      Interesting, the T6 model still shows up in the 2021 online configurator.
      Yup I mentioned that, said he just got word of it.

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    6. #4
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      Was he trying to get you to T5 or T8?

      Krzyś

    7. #5
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      wouldn't surprise me, we know within a few years they dont' want to sell ANYTHING without at least some level of electrification. They will start cutting down the ICE only options
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    8. #6
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      Quote Originally Posted by krzyss View Post
      Was he trying to get you to T5 or T8?

      Krzyś
      Nope, said if wanted a 2021 had to be a T5 or T8. No more T6 option.

    9. #7
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      Does VCUSA want to kill the sedan now after killed the wagon?
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    10. #8
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      Quote Originally Posted by FusionRedXC60 View Post
      Does VCUSA want to kill the sedan now after killed the wagon?
      the sales numbers speak for themselves.
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    11. #9
      Quote Originally Posted by Avboden View Post
      the sales numbers speak for themselves.
      Agreed... however, with moves like this is a slippery slope. You cut a option you lose sales you cut more options you lose more sales...
      2020 V60 CC

    12. #10
      My salesman just called to let me know my order is confirmed and my car will be built....but the T6 is done. He said dealers had no warning of this. Man, if you had been working with a customer on ordering a car and now the model is gone....seems like it should have been phased out in a different way. That means my 2021 Bursting Blue R-Desing with State interior, sport suspension and B & W audio will likely be the only car in America in this configuration. I was maybe going to put off order for a few weeks as I still was considering another Audi but....man did I luck out. Now we know why there are virtually no 2021 T6s cars on lots and allocations to dealers was almost non-existent. With an 250hp or 400 hp option it sure will be hard to see how they compare very well to the competition. Now we also know why the T8 R-Design Expression is a thing....lowering the costs. Of course maybe I will be sad I didn't get a T8 now that the price difference between identically equipped T6 verses T8 is about $1500. I guess that's probably a bargain for over 100 more horsepower. However that means no S60 is now available with the Sport Suspension (another rare feature may car will have). Volvo sure is marching ahead with their own plans, and I guess we can't change there mind (good or bad).

    13. #11
      Junior Member DrFunkelstein's Avatar
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      Disappointing but I’m not surprised. I already got burned by this last year — was holding out to get a V60 T6 but couldn’t make it happen in 2019, and then the axe fell for 2020 without much warning.

      But it makes sense with Volvo’s overall migration away from pure ICE and toward electric and hybrids only (and electrics only beyond that).

    14. #12
      Junior Member 97redz3's Avatar
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      Yup ... vehicles powered by dino fuel are going the way of ... the dinosaur!
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    15. #13
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      That's surprising! but not surprising at the same time as NA market was the only T6 left. I could probably get over the T8 being the replacement, got my issues with the ERAD replacing mechanical AWD but would be a cool new adventure. But no sport chassis damn I couldn't live without that. The 112mph speed limiter is a bit far as well, I can exceed that just slightly on the track nights I went to, so it kinda cuts into that "don't need it but like to know it's there" that you have to have if you are going to sell a driver's car. Despite what we all think of the typical driver, this class of car does have driving dynamics high on the list, otherwise the Lexus ES would take all the customers away.

      Those of us with the T6/sport chassis may have a nice orphaned car to hold on to, if you like it!

      Speaking hypothetically the Polestar 2 I would be pretty excited about, with the performance package. It grabs me in a way the Tesla doesn't. I think they may have a hit with it if they can reach the people that might be turned off the Tesla. And that thing gets Ohlins and 130mph top speed.

      Quote Originally Posted by 97redz3 View Post
      Yup ... vehicles powered by dino fuel are going the way of ... the dinosaur!
      EV sales are 1.4% of total US sales, and HEV/PHEV (hybrid) sales are 2.4% of total US car sales in 2019, if my google-fu is up to snuff. I know the mfrs want to be where the market is going, but seems to me there is a large market in traditional gas cars for some time, that Volvo might be giving up. Or they end up switching those people from their own or competitors gas models. I guess we'll see how their market bet turns out.

    16. #14
      Junior Member arnoud's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Power6 View Post
      EV sales are 1.4% of total US sales, and HEV/PHEV (hybrid) sales are 2.4% of total US car sales in 2019, if my google-fu is up to snuff. I know the mfrs want to be where the market is going, but seems to me there is a large market in traditional gas cars for some time, that Volvo might be giving up. Or they end up switching those people from their own or competitors gas models. I guess we'll see how their market bet turns out.
      That, or the US market is no longer the dominating market driving product development? Electical drive-trains are the future. Clutching at Straws.

    17. #15
      Senior Member Wayne T5's Avatar
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      Not really surprising. One could see the handwriting on the wall with the V60 and V60CC only being offered with the T5 currently. Sedans are such a small percentage of what Volvo sells in the US to begin with they need to rationalize production as much as possible. They gave it a shot with the T6 in the S60 for two years, sales weren't there, time to make adjustments. I would hope/expect this means the S60 T5 will be available with AWD now.
      Past: '94 854, '99 S70 T5 SE, '99 S70 GLT, '04 S60R M, '12 S60 T5, '13 S60 T5, '15 S60 RD, '05 V70R GT
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    18. #16
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      The T5 will also end up being replaced by the B5 (mild-hybrid, 48V) sooner or later for US market. Mild-hybrid systems are belt driven starter/generators, and they're simpler to implement on current production engines since they replace the standard alternator, and pair it with a dedicated 48V battery. The Start/stop function will be smoother, and the belt integrated starter/generator can also give some torque boost at lower rpms to help with acceleration and fuel consumption reduction.

    19. #17
      Junior Member 97redz3's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Power6 View Post
      EV sales are 1.4% of total US sales, and HEV/PHEV (hybrid) sales are 2.4% of total US car sales in 2019, if my google-fu is up to snuff. I know the mfrs want to be where the market is going, but seems to me there is a large market in traditional gas cars for some time, that Volvo might be giving up. Or they end up switching those people from their own or competitors gas models. I guess we'll see how their market bet turns out.
      I agree - it's about skating to where the puck will be vs. where it is now. Globally, CO2 restrictions and fuel economy standards are pushing the entire industry towards electrification ... not just Volvo. It makes sense; the technological barriers have mostly fallen. Toss in real performance advantages (better acceleration, better handling due to lower Cg), less complex manufacturing and servicing, and lower cost of ownership and the future is bright for electrics.
      Last edited by 97redz3; 09-17-2020 at 08:01 PM.
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    20. #18
      Quote Originally Posted by 97redz3 View Post
      I agree - it's about skating to where the puck will be vs. where it is now. Globally, CO2 restrictions and fuel economy standards are pushing the entire industry towards electrification ... not just Volvo. It makes sense; the technological barriers have mostly fallen. Toss in real performance advantages (better acceleration, better handling due to lower Cg), less complex manufacturing and servicing, and lower cost of ownership and the future is bright for electrics.
      Electric has its benefits and itís definitely ďfasterĒ however worse for environment as a hole and with range itís currently available itís worthless for 99% of Americans.

      All these rules and regulations are only to make more cash... same as with hands free devices that now data shows regardless if you on ur phone or on hands free device you are 4x more like to have an car accident. National safety council shows 25% of crashes involve cell phones 21% phone conversations and only 4% txting.
      Think about it phone in hand txt is only 4% and a phone call regardless if itís hands free or not itís 21% but almost every state pushed hands free making you buy new cars with it or a device. Plus making money by tickets just because you hold the phone in ur hand.

      Anyway I know thatís off topic but itís all about selling you more stuff ďelectric is betterĒ you know whatís the best for environment? Definitely not manufacturing more new cars and batteries. If the environment was the main purpose in design cars would not need new brakes after 5k miles and would lest longer, be more serviceable, and easily repairable.

      The best thing we can do for the planet is stop buying things we donít need.
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    21. #19
      Junior Member Catfiend's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Kamil View Post
      Electric has its benefits and itís definitely ďfasterĒ however worse for environment as a hole and with range itís currently available itís worthless for 99% of Americans.
      I've just got to ask, where did you get this? The majority of what I've seen as far as actual studies show that electric cars are a net win for the environment (even in areas that burn coal for a electricity, though much less so.) In fact the only one I remember seeing that didn't say that was sponsored by an oil company, so somewhat suspect. And worthless for 99% of Americans? How so? Most commutes are not that long - I think the average is under 20 miles - so even with the PHEV that won't get you both ways on electricity you'd be cutting out a lot of the gas you burn. Please help me to understand where you're coming from here.
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    22. #20
      Quote Originally Posted by Catfiend View Post
      I've just got to ask, where did you get this? The majority of what I've seen as far as actual studies show that electric cars are a net win for the environment (even in areas that burn coal for a electricity, though much less so.) In fact the only one I remember seeing that didn't say that was sponsored by an oil company, so somewhat suspect. And worthless for 99% of Americans? How so? Most commutes are not that long - I think the average is under 20 miles - so even with the PHEV that won't get you both ways on electricity you'd be cutting out a lot of the gas you burn. Please help me to understand where you're coming from here.
      Sure, first you canít consider just the fuel vs electric but however the entire manufacturing process and mining for materials required for batteries manufacturing and itís transport. Then also add that you canít recycle batteries. Remember the pictures of trees growing in a car and even engine block in a tree trunk? Try the same with toxic batteries.

      Not to mention the live span of a battery. Toyota owners already know the pain when the batteries are dead and you have to spend 10-15k for a new battery and guess what happens to the old one...

      Now to all that you can add how Inefficient the cars are as you drive around with a 1500lbs batteries regardless if itís fully charged or empty.


      As for average itís 30 miles a day but thatís average with all licensed drivers so all the millions of old people that donít drive at all are included.
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    23. #21
      Junior Member DrFunkelstein's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Kamil View Post
      Electric has its benefits and it’s definitely “faster” however worse for environment as a hole
      This really isn’t true. Even the more conservative estimates give the edge to electric and that’s factoring in all points in the supply chain. It’s not like electric is environmental magic at the moment but it is definitely better than fossil fuels and it will only get better as the infrastructure improves. However, I do agree that the very best thing is to minimize consumption, buy used, etc. No argument there.

    24. #22
      Junior Member Catfiend's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Kamil View Post
      Sure, first you canít consider just the fuel vs electric but however the entire manufacturing process and mining for materials required for batteries manufacturing and itís transport. Then also add that you canít recycle batteries. Remember the pictures of trees growing in a car and even engine block in a tree trunk? Try the same with toxic batteries.

      Not to mention the live span of a battery. Toyota owners already know the pain when the batteries are dead and you have to spend 10-15k for a new battery and guess what happens to the old one...

      Now to all that you can add how Inefficient the cars are as you drive around with a 1500lbs batteries regardless if itís fully charged or empty.


      As for average itís 30 miles a day but thatís average with all licensed drivers so all the millions of old people that donít drive at all are included.
      The studies that I've seen are full life cycle of the car. They acknowledge that there is a negative effect in the manufacture of the batteries - no question there - and in their disposal. And electric power for cars is still less polluting. Now, how much varies on where you live. Where I live is 100% hydroelectric + individual solar cells so the carbon footprint is much reduced (not 0% but much reduced.)

      And, no, the commute distance I was speaking of was strictly that, commuting, so not people who don't commute (like me - telecommuting doesn't count, though it affect other statistics.) I should, though, have mentioned that it was < 20 miles each way for the commute, not total.

      Now, as far as reducing consumption? Sure, first thing. That's one big reason we keep our cars for 10+ years since a lot of energy and pollution goes into making a car so we amortize it out over the length of ownership.
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    25. #23
      Quote Originally Posted by DrFunkelstein View Post
      This really isnít true. Even the more conservative estimates give the edge to electric and thatís factoring in all points in the supply chain. Itís not like electric is environmental magic at the moment but it is definitely better than fossil fuels and it will only get better as the infrastructure improves. However, I do agree that the very best thing is to minimize consumption, buy used, etc. No argument there.
      Just consider the fact that you canít recycle old batteries. You canít just recycle the car like current gasoline car. This alone means the environmental hit will be higher bs gasoline.

      Not to mention ďLithium mining, needed to build the lithium ion batteries at the heart of today's EVs, has also been connected to other kinds of environmental harm. There have been mass fish kills related to lithium mining in Tibet, for example. The freshwater supply is being consumed by mines in South America's lithium-rich region. Even in North America, where mining regulations are strict, harsh chemicals are used to extract the valuable metal.Ē

      Iím not against the electric car. Love the power and how quiet they are but Iím not gonna blindly say that they are better for the environment.

      One of many interesting reads (my knowledge is however internal to the process) thatís all Iím going to say

      https://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/e...rint-1.5394126
      Last edited by Kamil; 09-17-2020 at 10:12 PM.
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    26. #24
      Quote Originally Posted by Catfiend View Post
      The studies that I've seen are full life cycle of the car. They acknowledge that there is a negative effect in the manufacture of the batteries - no question there - and in their disposal. And electric power for cars is still less polluting. Now, how much varies on where you live. Where I live is 100% hydroelectric + individual solar cells so the carbon footprint is much reduced (not 0% but much reduced.)

      And, no, the commute distance I was speaking of was strictly that, commuting, so not people who don't commute (like me - telecommuting doesn't count, though it affect other statistics.) I should, though, have mentioned that it was < 20 miles each way for the commute, not total.

      Now, as far as reducing consumption? Sure, first thing. That's one big reason we keep our cars for 10+ years since a lot of energy and pollution goes into making a car so we amortize it out over the length of ownership.


      That is the best thing you can do. I hope I can keep my car for 10+ years
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    27. #25
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      I don't think T6 sells less than T8, even with the trend considered. VCUSA is just clueless.

      T8 also cost a lot more than T6 to build. Lower priced T8 will eat into their revenue.

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    28. #26
      Junior Member 97redz3's Avatar
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      Good 2020 paper published by Boston Consulting Group on electrification:

      https://www.bcg.com/publications/202...-tipping-point
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    29. #27
      Quote Originally Posted by 97redz3 View Post
      Good 2020 paper published by Boston Consulting Group on electrification:

      https://www.bcg.com/publications/202...-tipping-point
      im sure its not a "one way" and "half trues" document as its from people managing and operating in automotive manufacturing pushing for the EV cars.

      Why dont we ask Apple and see who makes the best phones?




      Xavier Mosquet
      Managing Director & Senior Partner

      Detroit

      Xavier Mosquet is a core member of The Boston Consulting Group's Automotive sector. He is the founder of the firm's Detroit office and was co-leader of BCG's global automotive sector from 2008 to 2014.

      out of the respect on the subject i will stop posting on this. we can start a new post in general on EV cars but im done posting on this subject in this post.
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    30. #28
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      The T5 does sound raspier which I like... and the T8 pricing was brought a bit more in line... Personally... I'd rather a full electric than a plug in hybrid. I do keep calling out the Volvo trainers when they push the T8 by asking if that means we're gonna get some in stock proportional to the amount of training time. I won't push the idea of a car to a customer if I don't think it's realistic to get the car in stock that week to sell it.... But market wise it makes sense... Honestly we get very few sedan shoppers... and I'd say, regardless of how great the new S60 is, most of our customers are returning Volvo folks who don't overly care about 316 HP... so it will make the AWD base option more affordable. I think it will help sales more than hurt frankly. We found out first through an allocation of T5 AWD... We thought it must have been a Volvo typo... but later in the day we got a memo of the change. So we were told we were getting the cars before they told us they made the change =-D
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    31. #29
      Junior Member arnoud's Avatar
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      Something I have been wondering about; why would you need AWD on an S60 or V60? Maybe in regions where they still have *real* winters, where driving on winter tires (or even spiked ones) do not cut it. But then you probably want something XC-ish.

    32. #30
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      Quote Originally Posted by arnoud View Post
      Something I have been wondering about; why would you need AWD on an S60 or V60? Maybe in regions where they still have *real* winters, where driving on winter tires (or even spiked ones) do not cut it. But then you probably want something XC-ish.

      AWD on sedans/wagons in this segment is seen as a "premium" option/feature (not so much due to inclement weather). That's why you see the other premium brands offering AWD on their sedans (BMW xDrive, Audi Quattro, Mercedes 4Matic, etc.).

      Even Mazda, in their current quest to become more "premium", started offering AWD on the Mazda 3 (even on the non-turbo model).

    33. #31
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      If you guys are interested in learning more about what happens to EV battery packs after their in-vehicle use is finished, check out this company: http://www.spiersnewtechnologies.com/energy-storage

      I visited their facility when I was working at a car manufacturer on an upcoming EV. My job at that time was planning aftersales for electrified vehicles. The EV battery packs will be used to create stationary energy storage units as a way to extend their life, before they go to actual recycling. You can't recover a lot of the rare earth materials from recycling automotive LiB packs. The process is very expensive, so instead of going directly to recycling, they'll be used to build stationary energy storage units.

      The car battery packs are very expensive (sometimes, 40% of the vehicle MSRP is the battery pack), so life-cycle-mgmt will be required to get better ROI, and extend the assets life-cycle. It won't make make any sense to recycle them right after in-vehicle use.

    34. #32
      Quote Originally Posted by AJS1KR View Post
      If you guys are interested in learning more about what happens to EV battery packs after their in-vehicle use is finished, check out this company: http://www.spiersnewtechnologies.com/energy-storage

      I visited their facility when I was working at a car manufacturer on an upcoming EV. My job at that time was planning aftersales for electrified vehicles. The EV battery packs will be used to create stationary energy storage units as a way to extend their life, before they go to actual recycling. You can't recover a lot of the rare earth materials from recycling automotive LiB packs. The process is very expensive, so instead of going directly to recycling, they'll be used to build stationary energy storage units.

      The car battery packs are very expensive (sometimes, 40% of the vehicle MSRP is the battery pack), so life-cycle-mgmt will be required to get better ROI, and extend the assets life-cycle. It won't make make any sense to recycle them right after in-vehicle use.
      Almost none of the current batteries are recycled or reused. They were never designed to be easily disassembled or recycle or re used.

      If the batteries failed in the car there are not going to be re used. If the car got damaged in a car accident the batteries are not going to be reused. No one is going to place, sell, or reuse a battery that could explode at any time.

      All this ďwe will used them for solarĒ is a dream or a 1% application when the batteries are okay but somehow the car is not.

      Even Tesla is not purchasing, reusing, recycle the batteries.

      I know I said this before but really Iím done posting on this sorry for taking us off track

      https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.the...tery-recycling
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    35. #33
      Junior Member DrFunkelstein's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Kamil View Post
      Almost none of the current batteries are recycled or reused. They were never designed to be easily disassembled or recycle or re used.

      If the batteries failed in the car there are not going to be re used. If the car got damaged in a car accident the batteries are not going to be reused. No one is going to place, sell, or reuse a battery that could explode at any time.

      All this “we will used them for solar” is a dream or a 1% application when the batteries are okay but somehow the car is not.

      Even Tesla is not purchasing, reusing, recycle the batteries.

      I know I said this before but really I’m done posting on this sorry for taking us off track

      https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.the...tery-recycling
      The point is that right now, electric has a lower overall impact than fossil fuels. Battery recycling is an issue but at least there is a likelihood that will improve as the overall infrastructure does. Mainly it’s just not really true that electric is actually worse for the environment than fossil fuels, even when considering all the issues that come along with ev production.

    36. #34
      Quote Originally Posted by DrFunkelstein View Post
      The point is that right now, electric has a lower overall impact than fossil fuels. Battery recycling is an issue but at least there is a likelihood that will improve as the overall infrastructure does. Mainly itís just not really true that electric is actually worse for the environment than fossil fuels, even when considering all the issues that come along with ev production.
      Itís not lower overall impact thatís what they want car manufacturers you to believe.

      Electric is another ďshort time fixĒ mining for rare elements to creat batteries and more pollution is not a step in the right direction. Itís just a way for companies to make you buy more products for more and get less.

      Iím out on this topic, good night everyone hope you all have a great weekend.
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    37. #35
      Junior Member Catfiend's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Kamil View Post
      Itís not lower overall impact thatís what they want car manufacturers you to believe.

      Electric is another ďshort time fixĒ mining for rare elements to creat batteries and more pollution is not a step in the right direction. Itís just a way for companies to make you buy more products for more and get less.

      Iím out on this topic, good night everyone hope you all have a great weekend.
      The studies disagree with you. It really is lower overall impact over the life of the car, including disposing of the batteries. What it's not is what many pro-electric people want you to believe - essentially 0 impact. It takes some time of clean running to 'pay back' the upfront cost of associated with the batteries. The amount of time it takes to get into the black depends largely upon the source of electricity used to charge them. Wind/hydro/solar are fairly quick - a couple of years if I remember correctly. If the electricity comes from coal it takes a long, long time - so long that it may not be cleaner depending upon how long people keep their cars.

      One major difference with electric cars is that so much of the environmental load is shouldered up front that they can only provide real environmental benefit over a long period. For an ICE car the majority of the carbon footprint comes during use so buying new cars frequently isn't *that* much worse than just driving one car for years. It may even be better if the new cars are cleaner. That means if you really are hoping for the environmental benefits then you should plan to keep your electric cars for long enough to get into the black given your source of electricity.
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    4. No more Rs and no more S60s?!?
      By 855turbo95 in forum S60 (2001-2010)
      Replies: 9
      Last Post: 03-01-2007, 12:08 PM